Hypothetically speaking, we will pretend Nintendo is not brain dead.

[ThaRoy]

9 years ago a game was released that shocked the gaming culture, Super Smash Bros. Released on the Nintendo 64, this game dominated and showed how basic the mechanics of the fighting genre could be to formulate such advanced strategies. People were shocked and in love. 2 years later it's predecessor Melee was released, using new ideas and concepts. Over time people began to exploit accidental flaws (if I say glitch people get so defensive...apparently glitch offends more people then calling people racial slurs -_-) in the game and rocked the competitive scene. 7 years later, Brawl is released.

Alright, now that you know what has been happening, time to actually think. After a 7 year obsession with Melee, tournaments being held everywhere, people making a living off of playing Melee, and the fact that these exploited flaws lead to all of it...you'd think Nintendo would realize this? Now, let's pretend that we exist in a world where everyone's intelligence was not rivaled by the living cells I expell when ejaculating and pretend that Nintendo took note of this. Do you honestly think that on a console where hardcore games were being lacked, they would purposely release one of the most anticipated games of all time to completely lack all of the elements that lead Melee to being so successful? Do you honestly think that because YOU have yet to find them, that they do not exist? Honestly people, wake the f-ck up.

People are b1tching left and right about tripping...yes moron Nintendo installed a component to completely eliminate one of the most popular social aspects of THE WHOLE F-CKIN' GAMING CULTURE that used an entropic variable to stunt the gameplay... The sequel to THE MOST COMPETITIVE GAME OF ALL TIME was PURPOSELY designed to prevent the very scenario's... Wow...just wow. I shall condemn you all.

Seriously, wake up and learn buisness strategy. I am not even old enough to be able to take buisness related classes (or perhaps my highschool doesn't offer them...or maybe I dropped out...or maybe I am really a criminal convicted of rap3 upon young infants and then selling videos of my actions on an illegal internet p0rn ring) and I am able to see the flaws in this. Look at the aspects included in Brawl...their are f-ckin' free trials to video games included! Think it was as easy as canoodleing their noodles and then the magical liquid formulates all of the coding!? NO IDIOTS IT REQUIRES TIME AND EFFORT AND MONEY! So yeah...more unlockables = more money... so they are going to eliminate one of the most competive aspects of gaming culture thus resulting in loss of money and thus losing buisness, crediability, and a fan base. Wow, can't believe you shattered their bulletproof plans.

You all "elevate bull**** to an artform" -Maddox

kthxbai

 

[Cerqerati]

Just pack it in and leave .... noob.

 

[ThaRoy]

Just pack it in and leave .... noob.

I believe my deposit is "packed in" your own anal crevices. How about we process information and think thoroughly about what we type before making a post calling someone a n00b following four periods thus rendering our grammar and intellectual thought process to a whopping zero on the social scale?

 

[Taymond]

The fact that it was/would be a dumb move on Nintendo's part to do that doesn't prove anything.

Evidence points to the contrary, at the moment. And it's not so far fetched that a game company might make a mistake. They do it all the time.

 

[ThaRoy]

I am not trying to prove anything to you, if I was it would have had proof. I just proposed a hypothetical situation and asked a rhetorical question so that you could judge for yourself. And if it was a mistake, as in a glitch, then it would not have it's own independent animation and developing aspects. If they put it in there on purpose and perhaps it is glitched to a fault, then no worries because since Brawl is online they can release an update...I think. To my knowledge the Wii hasn't released updates but I assume it is possible...correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ampleforth]

I believe my deposit is "packed in" your own anal crevices. How about we process information and think thoroughly about what we type before making a post calling someone a n00b following four periods thus rendering our grammar and intellectual thought process to a whopping zero on the social scale?

If you're going to talk about grammar, spell 'business' correctly, jesus...

Stop reading Maddox.

 

[S623]

Wait. Could the OP give me a summary? Because that post was running back and forth between fifteen thoughts.

 

[Yojimbo]

So I'll take a stab at this.

You're saying we're all stupid because we believe that Nintendo can and did mess up Brawl in some aspects. Are you defending Nintendo, or trying to get us to understand that they put more unlockables in to make more money? And they'd lose money if they removed the things that made Brawl competitive?

What I really love about this post is that you try in so many witty ways to berate and belittle everyone here who doubts Nintendo compiled a true sequel to Melee. Or something. To be honest, your rant is far too over the place and ridden with grammatical and spelling errors. Bold your point and edit the post because I've got no clue what you're trying to express other than your angry and numbers are funny to use in place of letters for naughty words.

 

[ArchangelRaziel]

Oh dear christ people, stop tar and feathering the boy. He's right: Just because we haven't found it after one friggin' month doesn't mean it's not there. Do any of you realize how long it took people to learn wtf a wavedash was in melee, or how it could be utilized? YEARS. Now, give yourselves a friggin' pat on the back that you've found ANYTHING in the timeframe you have. AT's will be found, ladies and gents. Why? because there has never been a game released that did not come with glitches. (PacMan may be the only one who is exempt from this) However, over 99% of games have glitches, and in a competative game such as Brawl, there will surely be some that get exploited. Tripping was put in for a reason: that reason being because it was the easiest way to stop people from trying to use the dash dance. just as why they took out the DI factor of the air-dodge, so we can't wave-dash. but we've already found things worth implementing, and will continue to do so. Stop being so God**** impatient. Remember that it takes time to learn things. If you don't want to take the time to LEARN, then you don't deserve to play. Go cry in your rooms over having to do some work, then suck it up and work. Otherwise, stop playing the game.

 

[Taymond]

I wasn't claiming that tripping was a glitch/accident, that's absurd.

I was saying that it was a mistake to intentionally implement an uncontrollable random penalty to an action as simple as moving. The mistake in question was a judgement mistake, not a programming mistake. Companies make bad games. Companies misjudge their audience. In an attempt to appeal to everyone, they fail to please some.

Also, I do believe there was talk of patching Brawl with Wii updates, although I do not have any documentation to back this up. I believe I just read it somewhere here, so it could be complete hearsay. Even if they did, though, I doubt they're going to change much of the game's basic interaction. Any updating will mostly be used to remove glitches, like Jigglypuff's final smash glitch, or to possibly tweak moves to maintain character balance.

Again, just because it would be smarter for Nintento NOT to have released a third installment with only a shred of the competitive appeal of its predecessor doesn't mean they didn't do exactly that. Bad judgement calls happen.

 

[joeysmash]

i don't know what to think of these boards any more...

 

[orintemple]

I don't know whether there is a plethora of advanced techniques hidden in the game or not, but the business aspect is right. A bunch of people on these forums seem to think Nintendo is supposed to cater towards the hardcore players when the hardcore players are about 2% of the Smash population. Catering to them would be terrible for making money. Any business with a shred of intelligence would never make a game to please just the minority group, thats really stupid. Even if Brawl is at its limit concerning techniques, it is only a failure to the hardcore. Nintendo is making a **** load of money off this game and thats what they care about.

GAME PRODUCERS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS!

The little guys, sure, but not the corporate heads, and anyone who thinks otherwise is living in their own world.

 

[ArchangelRaziel]

i don't know what to think of these boards any more...

Just think nothing of them then. Know that they are mostly filled with immature imbeciles who can't wait more than 10 minutes for something without complaining.

 

[TyrantRo]

HI!! i like pie!!!

 

[Taymond]

I'm so.. unsure.. about what exactly the OPs argument is.

Are you saying that Brawl doesn't lack a very strong competitive aspect, because it would be foolish for Nintendo to ignore competitive gaming, since Melee was so competitively popular?

Are you saying that Brawl does lack a strong competitive aspect, and people shouldn't be surprised at that, because Nintendo's concern is making money, which this game will certainly do, as it appeals to a casual audience almost wholly?

Are you saying that tripping isn't random, that we are currently mistaken in those beliefs, because to make tripping random would be a silly move, as it would indefinitely hamper the competitive crowd?

It's unclear what your stance is.

 

[Thingy Person]

HI!! i like pie!!!

HIIII! I'm gonna swallow your pie and steal its ability to be delicious!

 

[Razorsaw]

The game made over a million dollars in one week.

You guys aren't as important as you think you are.

 

[ArchangelRaziel]

I don't know whether there is a plethora of advanced techniques hidden in the game or not, but the business aspect is right. A bunch of people on these forums seem to think Nintendo is supposed to cater towards the hardcore players when the hardcore players are about 2% of the Smash population. Catering to them would be terrible for making money. Any business with a shred of intelligence would never make a game to please just the minority group, thats really stupid. Even if Brawl is at its limit concerning techniques, it is only a failure to the hardcore. Nintendo is making a **** load of money off this game and thats what they care about.

GAME PRODUCERS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS!

The little guys, sure, but not the corporate heads, and anyone who thinks otherwise is living in their own world.

Amen, brother. However, whether they meant to put them in or not, any game that has a physics engine whatsoever will have flaws in it that can be exploited. It's unavoidalbe. Now it's just a question of if anyone will find ways to do so productively, and that is something I have little doubt about. I'm sure someone will find things eventually, mainly because it is cost-prohibitive for a company to 100% glitch-proof a game (if that's even possible to do, which I have many doubts about), whereas gamers have no qualms about spending hour after hour testing a game fro glitches. Because of this, it is almost garunteed that people will find things. And due to the competative potential of a game like Brawl, the ones that people will be trying to find and utilize are ones that will provide advangtages. It is only a matter of time.

 

[Mercury]

» Smash World Forums » Super Smash Bros. Brawl » Brawl Tactical Discussion
» Hypothetically speaking, we will pretend Nintendo is not brain dead.

how is this tactical? go cry somewhere else.

 

[ssbm rocks1]

9 years ago a game was released that shocked the gaming culture, Super Smash Bros. Released on the Nintendo 64, this game dominated and showed how basic the mechanics of the fighting genre could be to formulate such advanced strategies. People were shocked and in love. 2 years later it's predecessor Melee was released, using new ideas and concepts. Over time people began to exploit accidental flaws (if I say glitch people get so defensive...apparently glitch offends more people then calling people racial slurs -_-) in the game and rocked the competitive scene. 7 years later, Brawl is released.

Alright, now that you know what has been happening, time to actually think. After a 7 year obsession with Melee, tournaments being held everywhere, people making a living off of playing Melee, and the fact that these exploited flaws lead to all of it...you'd think Nintendo would realize this? Now, let's pretend that we exist in a world where everyone's intelligence was not rivaled by the living cells I expell when ejaculating and pretend that Nintendo took note of this. Do you honestly think that on a console where hardcore games were being lacked, they would purposely release one of the most anticipated games of all time to completely lack all of the elements that lead Melee to being so successful? Do you honestly think that because YOU have yet to find them, that they do not exist? Honestly people, wake the f-ck up.

People are b1tching left and right about tripping...yes moron Nintendo installed a component to completely eliminate one of the most popular social aspects of THE WHOLE F-CKIN' GAMING CULTURE that used an entropic variable to stunt the gameplay... The sequel to THE MOST COMPETITIVE GAME OF ALL TIME was PURPOSELY designed to prevent the very scenario's... Wow...just wow. I shall condemn you all.

Seriously, wake up and learn buisness strategy. I am not even old enough to be able to take buisness related classes (or perhaps my highschool doesn't offer them...or maybe I dropped out...or maybe I am really a criminal convicted of rap3 upon young infants and then selling videos of my actions on an illegal internet p0rn ring) and I am able to see the flaws in this. Look at the aspects included in Brawl...their are f-ckin' free trials to video games included! Think it was as easy as canoodleing their noodles and then the magical liquid formulates all of the coding!? NO IDIOTS IT REQUIRES TIME AND EFFORT AND MONEY! So yeah...more unlockables = more money... so they are going to eliminate one of the most competive aspects of gaming culture thus resulting in loss of money and thus losing buisness, crediability, and a fan base. Wow, can't believe you shattered their bulletproof plans.

You all "elevate bull**** to an artform" -Maddox

kthxbai

ok now you're just toally flaming

 

[Huber]

I don't get what exactly your point is. At the end of every paragraph I think I got it but then you go off on another tangent seemingly unrelated.

No it's not because I lack the intelligence to understand, it's because in your huge attempt to sound smarter than all of us you made a post that literally doesn't make sense. Check yourself and try and make it clear this time.

 

[Nobie]

The funny thing about someone mentioning Pac-man as an example of a game that might not have had glitches, is that Pac-man is one of the most famous and prominent examples of a game ending up being accidentally very deep.

Pac-man's AI is actually very, very good but it is an unintended side effect from the way its creators programmed the game. The result is that in order to really, really do well in the game, you have to have a firm understanding of how each ghost behaves, and how they behave relative to each other.

 

[ThaRoy]

Alright, first off that post saying this is not tactical really pissed me off.

Brawl Tactical Discussion (174 Viewing)
Discuss Brawl tactics, strategies, and other aspects relating directly to gameplay.

This thread is obviously referring to how many moons the planet Jupiter has not the gameplay of SSBB. *facepalms*

I don't think I was taking either side of an argument, I merely stated that all of these outlandish and blatant points saying that tripping fails are pathetic because we simply need to know more about the game. I just proposed the hypothetical situation that people seem to think is true, that Nintendo deliberatly implemented tripping to piss us all off.

Since none of you got what I was saying, you all didn't understand the aspect of someone who believes tripping was a trap for us. Thus, I win and you all lose. *Kidding*

Ask specifically what you didn't understand though, I'll clarify those parts...DO NOT TELL ME THE WHOLE **** THING!

 

[JCaesar]

The thing I don't understand is why Nintendo would remove something like L-canceling and wavedashing. To appeal to casual gamers? If they are truly casual gamers, then they won't know about ATs and it affects their game not at all. It can't be because they were too lazy to program it in; they went to great lengths to program advanced things into melee that no casual player would ever come across, things like L-canceling and smash DI which are obviously not glitches (I won't get into wavedashing). Why would they take these things out when the only people who care about them are competitive players who want them there? I guess my point is that sometimes companies do have poor judgement and make bad decisions.

 

[ThaRoy]

My theory on that is as follows:

They did remove L-Cancel and Wavedashing simply because they thought it was getting old. Rather, they put in something else that is MUCH harder to find and much more useful, and when we discover it, it will be as much of an impact as L-canceling was. Don't think of it as removing, think of it as replacing.

 

[JCaesar]

I hope you're right, I really do

 

[Ademisk]

Nintendo took Earthbound out of the US Masterpieces. Pretty sure they're ********. Plus, Friend Codes? Seriously?

 

[Dan-E]

By removing ATs they stand to gain more money then they lose.

Competitive players who won't buy the game simply because wavedashing/lcancelling aren't in the game equal to about 5 people in the entire world.

The amount of casuals who fall in love with the smash series because of how easy it is to pick up will more than compensate for that loss. More casual = more money.

IMO we're not going to find anything even remotely game breaking in the coming years.

Why?

Because the smash community now is exponentially larger and much more well informed about what makes a competitive game. Melee just had a few people from 64 who knew about z-cancelling. Brawl has probably already been pushed very close to its competitive limits in relation to how far melee got pushed in one month.

Is it possible for Brawl to be competitive because of new discoveries?? Yes. Very. Probable? Nope. We have no evidence to indicate that it will and a whole lot of evidence to indicate that Nintendo went the extra mile when trying to make it so that the casuals could compete with the competitives.

To reiterate, removing wavedashing/Lcancelling was probably a good business decision. Getting owned online the first time you play the game by competitive players using all these advanced techniques would really turn anyone off of a game (Nintendo's theory).

 

[xandeR-]

Most competitive game ever?

Hardly.

Melee was a great game but I'm sorry, the most competitive games ever are Counter-Strike followed by Halo 2.

 

[Taymond]

Alright, uh.. since you seem to have ignored my last post...

Your position, I guess, is a little more clear. You think tripping was implemented because Nintendo just wanted to be jerks? I think the likelihood of that is pretty low.

Also, you think we're premature in saying that tripping is not a good thing because we don't know enough about the game yet? I don't believe so. I think it's implications are pretty clear, and our certainty that it's random is very high, as well. A random penalty should not be enforced for an action as simple and basic as general ground movement. I don't really need to know every programming detail about Brawl to know that that's a silly thing to do. Even things like "sometimes this move will fail" could be forgiven in some cases, but something as ridiculous as "sometimes your character forgets how to walk" are over the top. It introduces luck into the most basic action of the game, which deteriorates the importance of skill on every level.

L-cancelling wasn't exactly "hidden" either, and the idea that Nintendo intentionally programmed some "secret, ub3r" technique into the game is considerably far fetched. The development of advanced techniques isn't a game of hide and seek. They're not easter eggs. Also, you make it sound as if this theoretical AT was the end-all-be-all move, which would be incredibly stupid. The existence of ATs doesn't break a game, and none of them individually should, either.

In a game with any physics engine, there are often oversights in the engine that can be used to produce different results thank expected. These oversights will always exist, but their practical application may not always be immediately evident or even notable at all. The idea that there is some magical, secret hadoken waiting for us to find it, intentionally hidden somewhere in the game's code is just silly.

While I agree that we don't know everything there is to now about Brawl yet, and that new ATs are likely to appear in time, I don't have any reservations saying that Brawl is clearly a considerably more shallow game than Melee. The fact that new ATs might still be discovered doesn't give cause to make blanket dismissals of current analyses of the game. Also, when Melee came out, there weren't nearly as many people immediately concerned with searching out ATs. There weren't nearly as many people investigating every possible facet of the physics engine in an attempt to find new ATs. People weren't looking as hard at the start of Melee's release. Nowadays, people are. I don't claim that we've learned everything there is to learn, by any means, but the mere possibility of the existence of ATs not discovered doesn't allow you to make wild and unfounded claims that Brawl will certainly be as competitively deep as Melee was.

 

[Mama]

Well your post still fails terribly since you obviously have absolutely no clue whatsoever where people are coming from. Nor does it seem to me like you possess the capability to grasp competitive play for what it really is. Its also apparent that you lack the mental capacity to make a coherent, well thought out, and intelligent post.

See I can go and whip out my big words and proper grammar too. That doesn't automatically make your post smart. It is in fact very ignorant. You obviously have no idea how competitive gaming works nor do you seem to have any clue of what people are talking about when they talk about tripping and Brawl's competitiveness.

First of all, it doesn't matter if a few techniques are gone. What matters is the fact that, right now, the game is heavily biased toward the defensive campy play style and projectile spamming. No shield stun means a lot of characters will be hard pressed to get near a person and attack them because they can just block the attack and shield grab instantly without consequence. It takes very little skill to just pick a character and spam projectiles the whole time. Basically, the way it is now, theres little reason for someone to rush in and attack because the risk out weighs the reward. Why be offensive when you can be defensive? Why choose to lose when you can choose a projectile spammer and essentially choose to win?

Thats not competitive at all. Its idiotic, and likely a ridiculous over sight on the developers part. Skill should be rewarded. But right now its not that way. Things are dumbed down and easy so that you'll only see high win/lose ratios against players who are at vastly different levels. That doesn't mean casuals are at the same level as pros though. But it means that other "pros" are likely going to be all around the same level for a while due to this ease of use.

Second, theres tripping. In competitions people try to limit as many random factors as possible. Thats why items are not turned on in tournaments and stages with hazards are banned. Tripping is the competitive players nightmare. It was something thrown in to go with the hectic play style of Smash but at the same time it literally poses a large stumbling block for competitive players.

So what does that mean? Right now people are pissed at these stupid changes. Not the fact that a few things are gone or the speed of the game is different. In order to overcome this players are going to adapt. Simple as that. The Brawl hopefuls like myself are going to study the game and look for ways around tripping and find approaches for projectile spamming. Going to try to look at Brawl in a different way than we do now and see what exactly takes skill and what is the meta game going to revolve around next.

You however don't understand that at all which is why you fail terribly. You see a few people complaining and rather than asking why and then posting you just post what you think their reasons are and thats pretty stupid. Don't even get me started on business. Especially when you say you're still in a low grade at high school and have yet to take a class on it. Don't post like you know what you're talking about.

Normally I don't waste my time with threads like these anymore but you seem profoundly stupid so stand proud that you actually got my attention....

My theory on that is as follows:

They did remove L-Cancel and Wavedashing simply because they thought it was getting old. Rather, they put in something else that is MUCH harder to find and much more useful, and when we discover it, it will be as much of an impact as L-canceling was. Don't think of it as removing, think of it as replacing.

Thats all fine and dandy but L-canceling was never hidden (in Melee) it was carried over from Smash 64. In Brawl they have auto L-canceling which goes with the whole argument that the game has been made easier. Wave dashing is simply a product of the physics engine. Because the physics engine for Brawl is different. Air dodging is different therefore wavedashing can't exist. Arguing that they intentionally removed it is pretty far fetched in my opinion because that would mean they decided to change the whole physics engine so they could eliminate one little technique.

 

[Eaode]

Can you tone down the innapropriate and sexual analagies, it makes you seem 9 years old.

While you're at it, go make the post make sense.


Yes casuals make up the majority. Yes nintendo should cater to them. But that in no way means they have to intentionally remove and hinder things that only the competitive players cared about.

I'm not saying Brawl sucks, I'm just stating my opinion.

 

[ThaRoy]

...I am saying the complete opposite Taymond! I am saying that when people say NINTENDO DID THIS ON PURPOSE it is bull. I take the stance you take. I am saying the fact that since many of the AT's are gone is good but by no means did they do it to piss us off, rather to make us try something else out new. I am saying that I am against people saying this was to piss us all off!

 

[Mama]

Alright, uh.. since you seem to have ignored my last post...

Your position, I guess, is a little more clear. You think tripping was implemented because Nintendo just wanted to be jerks? I think the likelihood of that is pretty low.

Also, you think we're premature in saying that tripping is not a good thing because we don't know enough about the game yet? I don't believe so. I think it's implications are pretty clear, and our certainty that it's random is very high, as well. A random penalty should not be enforced for an action as simple and basic as general ground movement. I don't really need to know every programming detail about Brawl to know that that's a silly thing to do. Even things like "sometimes this move will fail" could be forgiven in some cases, but something as ridiculous as "sometimes your character forgets how to walk" are over the top. It introduces luck into the most basic action of the game, which deteriorates the importance of skill on every level.

L-cancelling wasn't exactly "hidden" either, and the idea that Nintendo intentionally programmed some "secret, ub3r" technique into the game is considerably far fetched. The development of advanced techniques isn't a game of hide and seek. They're not easter eggs. Also, you make it sound as if this theoretical AT was the end-all-be-all move, which would be incredibly stupid. The existence of ATs doesn't break a game, and none of them individually should, either.

In a game with any physics engine, there are often oversights in the engine that can be used to produce different results thank expected. These oversights will always exist, but their practical application may not always be immediately evident or even notable at all. The idea that there is some magical, secret hadoken waiting for us to find it, intentionally hidden somewhere in the game's code is just silly.

While I agree that we don't know everything there is to now about Brawl yet, and that new ATs are likely to appear in time, I don't have any reservations saying that Brawl is clearly a considerably more shallow game than Melee. The fact that new ATs might still be discovered doesn't give cause to make blanket dismissals of current analyses of the game. Also, when Melee came out, there weren't nearly as many people immediately concerned with searching out ATs. There weren't nearly as many people investigating every possible facet of the physics engine in an attempt to find new ATs. People weren't looking as hard at the start of Melee's release. Nowadays, people are. I don't claim that we've learned everything there is to learn, by any means, but the mere possibility of the existence of ATs not discovered doesn't allow you to make wild and unfounded claims that Brawl will certainly be as competitively deep as Melee was.

I agree mostly except for one thing.

Even though we have a lot of people concerned with finding these new techniques and experimenting with the physics engine I still don't think that means they're going about things correctly. Right now people should be concerned with looking for ways to approach and counter spamming. Just small tweaks in the ways things are done could mean the difference between years and months.

That said, the most profound discoveries will be made by accident. Even if they had the mind to search the game up and down for ATs in Melee how long do you think it would have been before someone made the connection between air dodge and ground friction? Just a thought. But I'm still hopeful for Brawl since it is too early to tell. But right now I'd say its a fact that Melee > Brawl in terms of competitiveness and skill rewarding.

...I am saying the complete opposite Taymond! I am saying that when people say NINTENDO DID THIS ON PURPOSE it is bull. I take the stance you take. I am saying the fact that since many of the AT's are gone is good but by no means did they do it to piss us off, rather to make us try something else out new. I am saying that I am against people saying this was to piss us all off!

Lol well you could have said that before I went and flamed you. However, you still went about it wrong. Especially with all the "anal crevice this" and something about sperm cells or whatever.

I do agree that most of these things people say Sakurai (not Nintendo) did just to piss people off seem far fetched though. I doubt his intention to make things easier was intended to make people made. He was probably just trying to help out the little guy and try to help people get better. But it was ill received and not really thought out in my opinion.

The only thing I could argue him doing and knowing it would make people angry is tripping. That was pretty dumb no matter how you look at it. Making tether recoveries auto sweet spot seems good on paper but in action its not so great. It means anyone can be gimped if someone just hangs on the edge. Before, you could still latch onto the side of a stage. But these are just things people will need to adapt to. They may have been bad ideas, but (as Almightypancake said) when Sakurai gives you a lemon, make lemonade. Don't stand there and try to get everyones attention by screaming "I gots me a lemons! I can't believe he gave me a lemon". Do something about it, right?

 

[Taymond]

Well nobody's saying that, lol.

Nobody's whining without a good reason. They didn't swap wavedashing for flipslamming, some mythical AT we have yet to discover. They completely changed the game's attitude, and slighted the competitive community with inescapably random penalties like tripping. They slowed down the pace of the game, they reduced hitstun, and they reduced shieldstun, all of which push the attitude of the game to a defensive standpoint. The best offense is sitting on your *** and waiting for the other player to be dumb enough to try to attack you. The attacker suffers just as much, if not more than the defender. They did something no fighting game would ever consider: favor the defender.

They didn't do any of this just to annoy the percentage of their community that plays competitive, no. But they did it. They squandered an opportunity to make an amazing game infinitely better. They did it to appeal to a wider casual market. We know that, we're not so conceited that we think they just wanted to rip our heads off.

Their reasons don't change the plain and simple truth, though. They screwed up Brawl. Regardless of ANY AT we discover in the future, Brawl is only a fragment of what it could've been.

 

[Deleted member]

its true, nintendo is ******** now, face it nintendo is making games for young kids and older people, they have totally forgoten about their hardcore fan base, do you want to know why? because the gamecube failed really badly

they took out the AT so then it makes the hardcore gamers and noobs at a closer level of play

before you start flaming me, let me just say that I've been a hardcore nintendo fan since I was 3. I have bought more games nintendo games than most people here and I have never bought any game system other than what nintendo makes. but the difference between me and other "nintendo fanboys" is that im not stupid and I know when to open my eyes to nintendo's faults

Brawl has been out for about 2 weeks now, all we have to do is keep playing and sooner or later it will become the new melee. Anyone with a different opinion is just stupid and should leave smashboards

 

[GoForkUrself]

First of all, you guys need to realize that the wavedash shff players of melee are the minority. For every player that wavedashed and shff constantly in melee, there are many times more players who play brawl who never did those things or hated others who did them.
I agree the projectile spamming has gotten a bit annoying in brawl, but that is where rolling. sidesteps, dash grabs and aerials come in(no AT's needed).
This game is way more competitive. The fact that the game is pretty close between an "expert" and a good(no AT) player shows that matches are more competitive. Just because an expert can't win with all 4 stock left vs a good player doesn't mean matches are less competitive, it just means you have to look even harder to give yourself that "edge" you need to beat others. I love that I can now play with all my friends in SSBB and have fun. Before I would own many of my friends so badly in SSBM they wouldn't play it with me. Now in SSBB, even if I am a better player than them(I'm the only one that does RAR, Pivot smashes etc.), I almost never win with 2 full stock or more left and lose occasionally.
I am glad they made the game this way.

 

[ph00tbag]

You're absolutely right. Tripping is stupid. I'm serious when I say that I believe it is the most enormous mistake Sakurai has ever made in designing games.

 

[Razorsaw]

That strikes me as frivolous, silly, and not very aware of any kind of bigger picture.

 

[bigafromusclekid]

If you hate it that much, then just leave. You won't be missed.