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I Can't Believe I'm Saying This, But.....

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Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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Bowser needs a nerf. Think about this realistically. I get grabbed once and am confirmed to take more than 20 percent. I get grabbed again, I'm in kill percent. If I get grabbed one to two more times, i'm dead. Bowser doesn't need the player to know how to use the character anymore, he just needs to beat the camper and get 3-4 grabs to kill at unreasonable percent with a combo that anyone can do. I was fighting a Bowser on Anther's and he wasn't bad, but I got 2-1'd because he only had to grab me 3 times each stock. I just have to resort camping on the other side of the stage reading his approach over and over again so i can knock him away to keep camping away the grab, because if i try to combo him and he slips out I get grabbed and die.
 

Dr Dank

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I legitimately do not understand your point. Shellshocking is simple yes, and effective, however it still doesn't erase the fact that Bowser has fundamental flaws. Mostly his extremes in his balance. Characters such as Donkey Kong have combos of similar use and ease of use, without the huge trade offs. (In donkey kongs case, he is in general a safer character, with more versatility.)

I think in this circumstance it's less the character and more learning to manage the matchup. There's so many things you can exploit against Big B, it's just simply more important now that you learn how to do that, since he's got a stronger KO game now and there's somewhat less margin for error.

This is by no means a "git gud" post or anything like that, and I'm sorry if I come off as such. I just feel that whilst bowser is stronger now, he's hardly deserving of a nerf without getting some form of compensation somewhere else.
 

BarSoapSoup

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Bowser doesn't have a lot of options in the neutral. Bowser also struggles with characters being too close to him - many attacks can whiff if you're too close or even inside of him. The Koo-pah can be ruined by rage, forcing Bowz to go for alternative solutions.

Just remember that Bowser has a lot of cooldown on almost every hit, which is why a lot of Bowser's go for grabs. Spot dodge, roll, do what you can to avoid getting grabbed. Practice with a friend and have them spam grab so you can learn how to beat it. Bowser doesn't need a nerf - if anything he needs a few very tiny buffs, but if Bowser stayed the way he is right now, I wouldn't complain.
 

Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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I legitimately do not understand your point. Shellshocking is simple yes, and effective, however it still doesn't erase the fact that Bowser has fundamental flaws. Mostly his extremes in his balance. Characters such as Donkey Kong have combos of similar use and ease of use, without the huge trade offs. (In donkey kongs case, he is in general a safer character, with more versatility.)

I think in this circumstance it's less the character and more learning to manage the matchup. There's so many things you can exploit against Big B, it's just simply more important now that you learn how to do that, since he's got a stronger KO game now and there's somewhat less margin for error.

This is by no means a "git gud" post or anything like that, and I'm sorry if I come off as such. I just feel that whilst bowser is stronger now, he's hardly deserving of a nerf without getting some form of compensation somewhere else.
My point being, killing with three grabs is not okay. I camp him and wait for him to mess up or throw something out and miss but once I make ONE mistake, I can die. That's not fair.
 
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wizrad

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Killing with three grabs is perfectly fine if you're slow, have poor reach, have no generally useful projectiles, and overalls struggle to get in. It's easy to adapt to. Don't get grabbed.
 

BarSoapSoup

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My point being, killing with three grabs is not okay. I camp him and wait for him to mess up or throw something out and miss but once I make ONE mistake, I can die. That's not fair.
For a character like Bowz it is completely fair, for the reasons that wizrad wizrad mentioned. There's a reason Fire Shot is considered superior to Fire Breath.
 

Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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Killing with three grabs is perfectly fine if you're slow, have poor reach, have no generally useful projectiles, and overalls struggle to get in. It's easy to adapt to. Don't get grabbed.
Do you know how good his grab range is? I can do so much to him and get so many hits then, I get grabbed and I'm dead.
 

Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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For a character like Bowz it is completely fair, for the reasons that wizrad wizrad mentioned. There's a reason Fire Shot is considered superior to Fire Breath.
It's not fair at all! How can you justify any character doing something as simple as grabbing three times to win? It doesn't matter who it is if they can do it with generally no skill with the character and just punish three mistakes then boom, you just won with bowser. A character killing with three moves is dumb, he only needs those three grabs
 

wizrad

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Get him offstage and gimp him. I understand that the change is quite a radical addition to the character, but there's a reason why he hasn't shot to the top of the tier list. It's a change to get used to.

Edit: Uh… you made the three mistakes. That's not Bowser's fault.
 
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Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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Get him offstage and gimp him. I understand that the change is quite a radical addition to the character, but there's a reason why he hasn't shot to the top of the tier list. It's a change to get used to.

Edit: Uh… you made the three mistakes. That's not Bowser's fault.
That's how I won the first match pretty much. A character killing with three grabs is dumb, and the fact that it's extremely simple makes it worse.
 

BarSoapSoup

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Do you know how good his grab range is? I can do so much to him and get so many hits then, I get grabbed and I'm dead.
While Bowser has one of, if not, the biggest pivot grab in the roster, he still has to get close, turn around and pivot grab to do it. I have done an instant pivot grab but not a perfect pivot to instant pivot grab (I'm not even sure if that's possible. Le Troof would probably know). You don't have to camp him with arrows, but if you think he's going for a grab, punish him for it. Bait the grab if you can.

It's not fair at all! How can you justify any character doing something as simple as grabbing three times to win? It doesn't matter who it is if they can do it with generally no skill with the character and just punish three mistakes then boom, you just won with bowser. A character killing with three moves is dumb, he only needs those three grabs
Tell that to every other character with a combo grab. D3 has a combo throw that can be a true combo on Bowz for a free 46%. Does he need a nerf? Back when I wasn't used to fighting humans, a ZSS player almost killed me at 90% while I was the third heaviest vertical character and undisputed heaviest horizontally.

Remember that pittoo has great aerial game, especially as opposed to Bowser. Utilize that.
 

Conn1496

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I'm with everyone else, really - as soon as 1.1.3 rolled around, I was one of the few people most hyped for Bowser's new throw options, but they're hardly spammable. I actually find myself jab-confirming them more than anything, and since you can shield jabs, well... A lot of Bowser's grab confirms are about mix-ups or catching your opponent off guard, and that's pretty difficult to do as a character who is so unwieldy as Bowser - and it's not like Bowser hasn't always been notoriously powerful against shields or had powerful options anyway. With options like Bowser Bomb and Klaw, the U-throw combos only really strengthened his vs. shield game (and kind of his rush-in game, which is non-existent anyway), which while it's a worthwhile buff, I don't think it adds anything particularly tactically powerful to Bowser's arsenal, it just strengthens him in a kind of power-creep way, which is actually pretty fair to me as it really adds to his Powerhouse status.

-and just by looking at the characters you play as, you shouldn't have any trouble spacing Bowser, or comboing him, for that matter. Dark Pit especially is really good at beating Bowser's approaching options, so you can generally catch him off guard with an early dash attack, or pressure him into bad approaches with arrows, dashes (again, the Pits' dashes are super good), your own grabs, short-hop F-air, and in the case he jumps, JC U-smash.

I think the key to fighting Bowser is to make sure he never succeeds in landing safely, because otherwise, he has basically no options. It will require some reading sometimes, and Bowser does have the option to just powershield through a lot of things instead of jumping, but that requires skill, and again, his attacks are pretty slow, and the ones that aren't have either horrendous end-lag, or just aren't fast enough.

As someone who plays Dark Pit and Bowser, I can easily say that the match-up is pretty even at worst for you. You're much safer than he is, faster than he is (attack wise, that is, do not try and run from Bowser if you're gonna go more than half the stage, since he can catch up to you as Dark Pit), and you have some pretty good pressure and (especially since Dark Pit got his Electroshock buff) some pretty incredible punishes. You just have to make sure to be a lot more patient around Bowser now, because one slip up and you can be dead in a matter of seconds (Which could actually be said for Dark Pit since 1.1.3, too since Electroshock has the potential kill Bowser at 90%.).

I can understand your frustration, but a lot of Bowser's power comes from his ability to make mince-meat of poor defences or panicked players if he gets close, and you shouldn't have any problems with Bowser's range or approaches at all. I actually find myself backing up a lot as Bowser if I'm being pressured, because there's just no way I can safely make use of my air tools, and approaching on ground is really damn punishable.

If anything, U-throw isn't that incredible other than for raw damage or KO purposes. His scariest tool is - and always will be - Fortress, since it's so fast for any other move Bowser can pull off and lingers long enough to punish rolls, which are the one thing that will get you out of the way of his stronger options, like the new U-throw.

The best advice I can give you is that... Bowser is still slow, and his air game still sucks so hard it makes Mac look average (Except his offstage. Do not underestimate Bowser's offstage.). Utilise that. Just don't stand your ground against Bowser, because his ground to ground game is pretty devastating in the right hands, it's kind of that simple, honestly.
 

wedl!!

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Not Conn but I think he's just trying to say Bowser's aerials just can't be thrown out because of their lack of safety (which is very true). He really can't poke with fair or bair very well due to bad jump+bad airspeed+really precise autocancel windows. Uair+Nair+Dair are just not poking moves. Bowz needs to be really precise with his aerials, unlike the large majority of other characters, due to all his circumstances.
 

BarSoapSoup

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Not Conn but I think he's just trying to say Bowser's aerials just can't be thrown out because of their lack of safety (which is very true). He really can't poke with fair or bair very well due to bad jump+bad airspeed+really precise autocancel windows. Uair+Nair+Dair are just not poking moves. Bowz needs to be really precise with his aerials, unlike the large majority of other characters, due to all his circumstances.
I see. I was already aware that the worst place for Bowser is mid-air, but short-hopping as a mixup doesn't seem to be as bad.
 

Conn1496

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Conn1496 Conn1496

Is air-game considered separate from short-hop approaches? I find the occasional short hop F-Air can be quite useful.
Yeah, short hopping his F-air and B-air is still kinda viable, but punishable on shield 9/10, so I don't always advise it myself. He has better options overall, but they're both deceptively fast, so I tend to catch a lot of people with them or options out of them (since they auto-cancel), and F-air has decent follow-ups. So if you're feeling especially ballsy, go for it. lol
 

Big Sean

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when bowser's in top 8 at national, let's maybe try to have this conversation.

spoiler: it will never happen.
 
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Endurrr

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he just needs to beat the camper and...
Yes, that's how you win with any character. Bowser just has an easier time doing it because of the buffs. He still has a ton of weaknesses and the buff probably didn't help a whole lot with players that are good with spacing and avoiding grabs and Bowser still needs to be ridiculously patient, ESPECIALLY with campers. He doesn't need a nerf, you just need to get more creative with your camping.
 

Zethoro

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Look at it this way.
Bowser can kill with just two or three grabs.
Anybody else can juggle Bowser and get an easy 60+% because his landing options are just that awful.
Bowser doesn't need a nerf. A lot of his matches are incredibly volatile, but that doesn't mean they're in his favor.
 

S_B

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It's not fair at all! How can you justify any character doing something as simple as grabbing three times to win? It doesn't matter who it is if they can do it with generally no skill with the character and just punish three mistakes then boom, you just won with bowser. A character killing with three moves is dumb, he only needs those three grabs
First of all, three grabs isn't accurate because Bowser isn't going to get most characters to KO % without 4-5 grabs, not including damage he's doing between those grabs.

Second, the obvious answer to your problem is to not make those mistakes to start with. In fact, I'm not sure how you're letting Bowser grab you at all. You can force HIM to approach, and all of his approaches are trash.
 

Hitman JT

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Not this **** again.
For the love of God go play 3rd Strike then complain about losing to Hugo in 2 grabs and a super.
Use Yun or Chun Li to make yourself look like more of a tool.
 

MordhauDerk

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I think I found your problem.
This game wasn't built for solely online play, in person you can react to a running grab, online it feels broken in some MU's. I do think grab->death is stupid for any character, Bowser's is down right annoying IMO. Along with pre-patch Diddy, Luigi and Current Mario/whatever high tier can do it...
Honestly thought, if grab combos aren't you're thing... maybe play Street Fighter or something idk... that's pretty much the majority of Smash 4's combos in the current meta. Maybe Melee? At least Bowser is slow af in that.
 
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Project SonicSpeed

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Since it doesn't seem like you are willing to listen to any of these very knowledgable Bowser mains who know the character way better then you I'll just be blunt here. You have 2 options at the moment:
1) Learn the MU and play to not get grabbed (It might not be fun but it'll sure as hell save you from a lot of deaths)
2) Play another game. 90% of Smash 4's meta is grab combos dude, either learn to deal with it or stop playing the game. Not to mention that characters who are faster then Bowser and have better tools in general also have Hoo-Hahs too.
 
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Cassius.

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The easiest solutions I can give to your problem is to not get grabbed, as should be the solution for any grappler character you face, or just play more Bowser players. I'm 100% certain you may not be as familiar with the match-up as you would like to be.

Bowser's greatest strength lies in his punish game. That has been the same throughout the entire 1.3ish years he's been in this game. This patch just made sure he gets proper rewards for getting in and getting the grab, as any grappler/bait & punish character should have.

You have an entire stage to work with. You have 6 minutes. Grabs lose to attacks 100% of the time (unless pivot grab is beautifully spaced teehee) ...and besides, saying that you have to resort to camping isn't a reason to nerf a character. That's what you're supposed to do. Bowser's gameplan is to either get in and hurt you, or punish you for coming at him the wrong way (OoS/shieldgrab game). You, as the player, are supposed to keep him out so you don't get grabbed, or get him in the air and write the rest of the story from there.

He still loses to the exact same characters he did pre-patch. Facing ZSS as Bowser is a deathwish, and Sheik, in theory, is as well. He still can't land, and takes risks every single time he attempts to do so aggressively. He still has an 8 frame jumpsquat--in some matchups, he literally cannot leave the ground (ZSS) or gets hit in the face before he can attempt to jump if needed (Sheik, Diddy). His fastest ground move is a special that has an immense amount of lag after being blocked. His jab is 7 (count, SEVEN) frames; compare that to the other moves that are thrown out in this game. All of his tilts are 10 frames or slower (not by much, but, again, look at what's in Smash 4.)

I would just chalk your sentiments up to MU inexperience, and it's annoying facing grappler characters online anyway. You got blown up. It happens. Just play more. Space properly, don't get too comfortable, and sit back/sit on a life lead if you need to. Trust me, you'll be fine.
 
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bushaheen

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when bowser's in top 8 at national, let's maybe try to have this conversation.

spoiler: it will never happen.
dk was able to reach very far bowser reach as far is very possible (thats in theory in actuality we dont have good enough bowser mains but if the summer of 2016 comes and finishes with no bowser results then someone will need to set up and be the popular bowser main just like dkwill with maining dk)


That's how I won the first match pretty much. A character killing with three grabs is dumb, and the fact that it's extremely simple makes it worse.

the fact is true bowser is not well designed character after the patch so i predict him to either be nerfed to how he was (im personally fine with that...... actually i would like that to happen so that people underestimate bowser which used to make me sad but in reality only makes the people i play against play worse since they underestimate me) or they will change his character design to be more healthy for the meta (they wont leave him unchanged and im talking about the upcoming dlc patch ofc)
 

wedl!!

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I wouldn't say Bowser can't land, but it's still pretty horrendous. He at least has threatening descending options. DK just drifts around until the opponent makes a mistake.
 

Arrei

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What I think is that Bowser needs less of a nerf and more of a rebalancing. He's been described as a character of extremes a lot, due to both his frightening power and his lack of other options should his opponent stay on their toes. Who else gets described as a character of extremes and gets a lot of hate slung at him, but Little Mac? I'm not sure such extremes are good design for any character.

But on the other hand, damn if using a big lumbering slugger like the Bowz ain't fun.
 

BarSoapSoup

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the fact is true bowser is not well designed character after the patch so i predict him to either be nerfed to how he was (im personally fine with that...... actually i would like that to happen so that people underestimate bowser which used to make me sad but in reality only makes the people i play against play worse since they underestimate me) or they will change his character design to be more healthy for the meta (they wont leave him unchanged and im talking about the upcoming dlc patch ofc)
How is Bowser in any way a worse-designed character after this patch .__.

He can reverse fortress to the ledge, his flying slam is a lot better now, and the Koo-Pah is a huge buff for a grappler character in a game where several top tiers have combo throws. Bowser has only improved with this patch.
 

bushaheen

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How is Bowser in any way a worse-designed character after this patch .__.

He can reverse fortress to the ledge, his flying slam is a lot better now, and the Koo-Pah is a huge buff for a grappler character in a game where several top tiers have combo throws. Bowser has only improved with this patch.
bowser is a plain character to play as and watch being played compared to the other more dynamic characters since before you had to take advantage of all of bowser tools to succeed but now you only need to use a few tools in netural just see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mCqxHLovRE there is a certain part where he talks about bowser in patch 1.1.3 and why he was lazily given buffs to improve him (you should probably watch the whole video since its really good)
 

_SoRa_

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Well, its the same with Luigi but he got nerfed. I don't think bowser needs nerf neither anyone in this game (says the Sheik and Sammy main LOL) you should try to play more Bowsers to get more MU experience and the trick is always pressure Bowser a lot and play safe.
 
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Cassius.

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dk was able to reach very far bowser reach as far is very possible (thats in theory in actuality we dont have good enough bowser mains but if the summer of 2016 comes and finishes with no bowser results then someone will need to set up and be the popular bowser main just like dkwill with maining dk)


the fact is true bowser is not well designed character after the patch so i predict him to either be nerfed to how he was (im personally fine with that...... actually i would like that to happen so that people underestimate bowser which used to make me sad but in reality only makes the people i play against play worse since they underestimate me) or they will change his character design to be more healthy for the meta (they wont leave him unchanged and im talking about the upcoming dlc patch ofc)
Why would Bowser be nerfed? You know how hard it is to actually grab someone who's aware of what and how Bowser approaches, how to escape corner situations/how to keep him out? Someone who actually can abuse Bowser's weaknesses? Someone who has a good understanding of stage presence and the mechanics of a grab? I've seriously only heard complaints about this from people who either do not play Bowser (at a mid-high level), don't actually have enough experience against Bowser, or got blown up because they got grabbed too often. The buff just highlights the fact that you should not be near Bowser at all. He does big damage and you will die for it. That's what a grappler is supposed to be like, am I correct?

This buff to his upthrow did not change anything except give us GUARANTEED damage for grabs that we, those "not good enough" Bowser mains were landing for a year now. We still lose to the same characters we lose to! I really don't understand what's so crazy about getting a consistent reward in neutral all of a sudden.

I understand that a lot of people suddenly want to try out Bowser and probably have not before, but we've been doing Up-Throw setups for a really long time now...they were just inconsistent. Suddenly we get consistency and it's a huge issue; everyone loses their minds and now we need nerfing? Okay.

How is he not well designed after the patch? I, along with the other prominent Bowser players still use all of his moves. All of Bowser's moves are important in not only dealing proper damage, but getting OPTIMIZED damage. If someone makes a horrid mistake, you're dying from Bowser Bomb at 70 or forward smash at 40 instead of going for an UThrow combo. Truth be told, UThrow combos aren't necessarily optimal in every situation. You play Bowser, so you are aware of that, right?

It's not like pre-patch Luigi at all. Yes, it is entirely possible to win a game or an entire tournament set only using a few of Bowser's tools. But, any character can do that. Those tools that Luigi needed to use to get the grab were absurd. He had a ridiculous projectile, a 2 frame jab, a 3 frame NAir...I can go on.

Compare that to Bowser's frame data and Bowser's grab data. Bowser has none of that, but a good pivot grab. The range is great, but it comes out on frame 11. For the video in question is a horrible example of such "bad" or "degenerate" design. Le Troof was clearly a better player than the Ness player; and in the Ness MU there are specific things you cannot and are not supposed to do anyway, so our tools in neutral are slighted (hurtbox extensions, etc).

It's not necessarily "poor design". Yes, the guy speaking hit the nail on the head. Sure, a jumpsquat and landing lag reduction would be nice. A walk speed increase would be amazing. Maybe they could've buffed him a different way, but so what? He's still big as **** and would still be abused in the same match ups, even with landing lag reduction. Bowser is overdue for a mechanical change, I absolutely agree. But it'd just be more bearable, I guess. Landing aggressively with Bowser would still be a risk.

The video is missing the heart of the issue. Bowser is at his best on the ground. His ground game is actually ridiculous with tilts, pivot grabs and boost grabs. And they actually helped out Bowser a lot in this patch aside from just the grab confirm. It just makes his ground game scarier. Don't get grabbed.

As an aside, what's the buff that no one else talks about when it comes to Bowser? He can snap the ledge facing backwards now. It took them 8 years to fix that. That's huge in terms of edgeguarding and recovering, but no one mentions it.

I guess Bowser's just a scrub killer now. That's fine by me lol

(Stay woke)
 
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BarSoapSoup

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bowser is a plain character to play as and watch being played compared to the other more dynamic characters since before you had to take advantage of all of bowser tools to succeed but now you only need to use a few tools in netural just see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mCqxHLovRE there is a certain part where he talks about bowser in patch 1.1.3 and why he was lazily given buffs to improve him (you should probably watch the whole video since its really good)
Bowser being a plain character is all about perspective. I find him intensely satisfying and fun to play. I don't think his buffs were lazily given at all. The Bowser forums have been asking for reverse fortress ledge snap for a long time. U-Throw was basically useless before 1.1.3, and Flying Slam being faster makes getting KOs a little easier, but not game-breakingly so.

I'm sure this guy has a lot of merit to his claims, but Bowser still requires many of his tools to be successful. Watch Le Troof's tournament matches - he utilizes U-Throw often but he works for those grabs with the same tools Bowser needs in the neutral. Bowser STILL doesn't have great neutral game when being compared to other characters. The Koo-Pah is still effectively ruined by rage, and as a big character, Bowser winds up making use of rage a lot. He's not any less interesting a character.
 

bushaheen

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Why would Bowser be nerfed? You know how hard it is to actually grab someone who's aware of what and how Bowser approaches, how to escape corner situations/how to keep him out? Someone who actually can abuse Bowser's weaknesses? Someone who has a good understanding of stage presence and the mechanics of a grab? I've seriously only heard complaints about this from people who either do not play Bowser (at a mid-high level), don't actually have enough experience against Bowser, or got blown up because they got grabbed too often. The buff just highlights the fact that you should not be near Bowser at all. He does big damage and you will die for it. That's what a grappler is supposed to be like, am I correct?

This buff to his upthrow did not change anything except give us GUARANTEED damage for grabs that we, those "not good enough" Bowser mains were landing for a year now. We still lose to the same characters we lose to! I really don't understand what's so crazy about getting a consistent reward in neutral all of a sudden.

I understand that a lot of people suddenly want to try out Bowser and probably have not before, but we've been doing Up-Throw setups for a really long time now...they were just inconsistent. Suddenly we get consistency and it's a huge issue; everyone loses their minds and now we need nerfing? Okay.

How is he not well designed after the patch? I, along with the other prominent Bowser players still use all of his moves. All of Bowser's moves are important in not only dealing proper damage, but getting OPTIMIZED damage. If someone makes a horrid mistake, you're dying from Bowser Bomb at 70 or forward smash at 40 instead of going for an UThrow combo. Truth be told, UThrow combos aren't necessarily optimal in every situation. You play Bowser, so you are aware of that, right?

It's not like pre-patch Luigi at all. Yes, it is entirely possible to win a game or an entire tournament set only using a few of Bowser's tools. But, any character can do that. Those tools that Luigi needed to use to get the grab were absurd. He had a ridiculous projectile, a 2 frame jab, a 3 frame NAir...I can go on.

Compare that to Bowser's frame data and Bowser's grab data. Bowser has none of that, but a good pivot grab. The range is great, but it comes out on frame 11. For the video in question is a horrible example of such "bad" or "degenerate" design. Le Troof was clearly a better player than the Ness player; and in the Ness MU there are specific things you cannot and are not supposed to do anyway, so our tools in neutral are slighted (hurtbox extensions, etc).

It's not necessarily "poor design". Yes, the guy speaking hit the nail on the head. Sure, a jumpsquat and landing lag reduction would be nice. A walk speed increase would be amazing. Maybe they could've buffed him a different way, but so what? He's still big as **** and would still be abused in the same match ups, even with landing lag reduction. Bowser is overdue for a mechanical change, I absolutely agree. But it'd just be more bearable, I guess. Landing aggressively with Bowser would still be a risk.

The video is missing the heart of the issue. Bowser is at his best on the ground. His ground game is actually ridiculous with tilts, pivot grabs and boost grabs. And they actually helped out Bowser a lot in this patch aside from just the grab confirm. It just makes his ground game scarier. Don't get grabbed.

As an aside, what's the buff that no one else talks about when it comes to Bowser? He can snap the ledge facing backwards now. It took them 8 years to fix that. That's huge in terms of edgeguarding and recovering, but no one mentions it.

I guess Bowser's just a scrub killer now. That's fine by me lol

(Stay woke)

well.....your kinda right after thinking about it people are complaining about bowser just like when the game first came out and nobody knew how to play vs him and im pretty sure they complained back then

also im wondering if the creator of the thread will try to learn the MU or still complain about it your points are really good and he probably got convinced that bowser isent as "OP"
 

Big Sean

Smash Journeyman
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bowser is a plain character to play as and watch being played compared to the other more dynamic characters since before you had to take advantage of all of bowser tools to succeed but now you only need to use a few tools in netural just see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mCqxHLovRE there is a certain part where he talks about bowser in patch 1.1.3 and why he was lazily given buffs to improve him (you should probably watch the whole video since its really good)
omg, actually watch the video he was talking about. It's hilarious because up until the last stock of the last game I counted exactly two grabs. Look at the moves that supposedly he's not using. Jab, ftilt, dtilt, up + b, fair, dair. These are the exact same neutral tools we used pre patch! The last stock the ness started panicking and overreaching with his aerials donating pivot grabs to le troof. Pre patch the same thing would have happened, except le troof would have thrown him off stage, used bowser's ridiculous option coverage on the ledge to rack up even more damage, and the game would have gone largely the same.

I'm happy to say that all my normals are still extremely useful. And if you watch that video, that supposedly shows le troof limiting his options to grabs and jab, you'll see that he thinks so too.
 

S_B

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the fact is true bowser is not well designed character after the patch so i predict him to either be nerfed to how he was (im personally fine with that...... actually i would like that to happen so that people underestimate bowser which used to make me sad but in reality only makes the people i play against play worse since they underestimate me) or they will change his character design to be more healthy for the meta (they wont leave him unchanged and im talking about the upcoming dlc patch ofc)
I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more minor buffs, actually.

Bowser is still largely garbage and anyone playing on FG will get pwned if they don't know what they're doing against Bowser, but that's how it should be for ANY character.

Really, if we're crying for nerfs on Bowser but NOT any of the stupid characters like ZSS or Sheik, it speaks volumes about how we've basically become numb to how broken these characters are and we just accept it...
 

Wintermelon43

Smash Champion
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Bowser needs a nerf. Think about this realistically. I get grabbed once and am confirmed to take more than 20 percent. I get grabbed again, I'm in kill percent. If I get grabbed one to two more times, i'm dead. Bowser doesn't need the player to know how to use the character anymore, he just needs to beat the camper and get 3-4 grabs to kill at unreasonable percent with a combo that anyone can do. I was fighting a Bowser on Anther's and he wasn't bad, but I got 2-1'd because he only had to grab me 3 times each stock. I just have to resort camping on the other side of the stage reading his approach over and over again so i can knock him away to keep camping away the grab, because if i try to combo him and he slips out I get grabbed and die.
Better nerf Greninja
 

Project SonicSpeed

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Why can't that meme just die already? Especially considering that he's been getting nothing but buffs since 1.11.
 
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Bowserboy3

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My point being, killing with three grabs is not okay. I camp him and wait for him to mess up or throw something out and miss but once I make ONE mistake, I can die. That's not fair.
What is not fair is that Bowser is one of the, if not the easiest character in the game to combo. This new combo throw gives Bowser a reason to keep playing, not to give up. I could maybe understand your point if Bowser already had a great combo game, a RELIABLE kill game, or he could actually land easily, or wasn't a walking sandbag. Right now, this combo throw fixes or helps address two of his major flaws. He is still easily combo'd, still struggles at landing, doesn't have the best approach, but now has what he was meant to have all along, a reliable punish game. I remember people moaning about the exact same thing when DK got his Ding Dong. Does that make DK OP? No.
 

MagiusNecros

Smash Master
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The throw bolsters his main playing field. The ground. He is still vulnerable in the air, to zoners, to rushdown, to just damn near everything.

I dunno why people call for nerfs on Bowser, a grappler archetype, because said character received a much needed buff to their GRAPPLE game.

Bowser still has flaws and problems despite his buffs. Players of equal skill against the top tiers will have Bowser lose. Every time.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Short post but nerfs aren't needed but it is kinda polarising. I'm pretty sure I'll be beating players this year that I wouldn't have been able to prepatch at the very least.

I had a ZSS main complain about Bowsers uthrow recently, so I played them in ZSS dittos and killed them off a grab multiple times from 37%

Tell me more about who/what needs nerfing.
 
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