I feel bad about using falco...

[XxBlackxX]

Laser are barely limited. If Wolf actually wants to start using his Reflector, he has to throw it out fairly early due to the speed of Falco's projectile. Once Falco has one or two lasers reflected, he can bait the reflector and punish with IAP, which hits Wolf faster than he can drop the reflector and get his shield up. Alternate between lasers and IAP, and Wolf is in big trouble. Falco doesn't have a free reign with his Lasers like he normally does, but it's barely even worth mentioning. If Wolf wants to sit in his reflector, any Falco worth his bread is fine with that.

Same with the chaingrab. As I explained before, in theory Wolf has a 50/50 shot at surviving the chaingrab, and that's assuming he can tech it with 100% consistency. Limited? Yes. But still very dangerous.

Falco does have a hard time killing. But we've known that since day 1. Everyone knows that. It's never been an issue before.

Wolf has superior kill moves, but he's never going to have the opportunity to use them if he can't get Falco's damage up. And how is he going to get his damage up? Our long range game is way better, and Wolf's best approach option, Bair, is crazy predictable, giving us plenty of time to pick and choose from the multiple counters at our disposal. Fair approach doesn't fare any better, and boost smash approach is easily ftilted on reaction. Wolf has to go through hell and back just to get some percent on Falco, all the while getting peppered with lasers, IAP, ftilts, Bair/Dair counters, and your occasional 50/50 gamble at losing a stock.

60:40 Falco, and I could make a pretty strong case for 65:35.

^ listen to this guy. he knows what's he's talking about lol. seriously? wolf? advantage on falco? wtf? you guys are overrating wolf's bair and reflector, and underrating the cg's, by just saying "lol tech it".


also @ angel, im pretty sure sethlon would say falco:GnW is 50:50

 

[nice1]

if u wanna change then it's your decision

 

[zamz]

also @ angel, im pretty sure sethlon would say falco:GnW is 50:50

As far as I know, both Hylian and Sethlon rated the match-up 50:50 even, or very close.

 

[8AngeL8]

Like I said, I hadn't talked to them all about every one of those matchups. I just said they'd agree for the most part.

<3 Havokk. I haven't been on the boards much lately and you're here fighting the good fight for me


When we do these matchup discussions, we're talking about high level play. I don't think anyone would argue that Falco absolutely ***** until you get to professional level. Anything less than that and the grabs and lasers are LETHAL. At top level play, people can perfect shield, avoid grabs, and tech spikes.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Like I said, I hadn't talked to them all about every one of those matchups. I just said they'd agree for the most part.

<3 Havokk. I haven't been on the boards much lately and you're here fighting the good fight for me


When we do these matchup discussions, we're talking about high level play. I don't think anyone would argue that Falco absolutely ***** until you get to professional level. Anything less than that and the grabs and lasers are LETHAL. At top level play, people can perfect shield, avoid grabs, and tech spikes.

.....at the top level of play, falco's can avoid bair and take advantage of wolf's over-using reflector. falco can get around wolf spacing and set up for his own kill moves. your point? also, tech=/=surviving always. it's 50% chance of surviving, and even if you do survive, falco has a % lead.

and if at high levels of play, players can avoid grabs ALL THE TIME, how come i see players like M2K and Azen getting grabbed?

 

[8AngeL8]

Getting grabbed, but not excessively grabbed at low percents.

 

[J4pu]

let thread die
seriously we choose the worst threads to keep posting in.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Getting grabbed, but not excessively grabbed at low percents.

so now you admit that even top players WILL get grabbed if they make a mistake. well then falco is one of the best characters to punish that mistake, because one grab at low %s=45%+.
and the truth is, everyone will make mistakes, top players make less mistakes, but they will still make mistakes.
either way, if falco gets the CG off 1 time in a match and wolf dies, that's a stock lead right there. top falcos also should know how to setup for low % grabs

 

[8AngeL8]

I agree with J4pu, we've already all given out opinion and no one is going to convince anybody. It's not like I'm telling you to stop using Falco or anything.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Falco is debatably second best and I HATE to think that a character I like SOOO much is the second best character. I try to make it a rule not to use the top 5 best characters but I'm too attached to falco to quit. Anyone feel the same or am I stupid for being sad about it?

"Falcon is debatably second worst and I HATE to think that a character I like SOOO much is the second worst character. I try to make it a rule not to use the bottom 5 best characters but I'm too attached to Falcon to quit. Anyone feel the same or am I stupid for being sad about it?"

-Dude, you're on the whole other end of the spectrum. Consider yourself lucky!

 

[pure_awesome]

I agree with J4pu, we've already all given out opinion and no one is going to convince anybody. It's not like I'm telling you to stop using Falco or anything.

This mindset is the biggest problem with SWF right now. The fact that you're this assured that you won't change your mind doesn't reflect the pointlessness of the conversation, it reflects your own stubborn attitude.

I've had my opinion changed on several match-ups by people who knew their stuff and gave valid reasons that countered the ones I provided. So far the best reason I've seen for Wolf countering Falco is that he can Shine everything. Which, considering Wolf can do this to every character yet is somehow not God Tier, leads me to believe it's not that big a threat.

If you're going to say that noone is going to convince anyone, speak for yourself. I've been convinced to change my way of thought many times. So be truthful, be blunt, and just say that you will not be convinced otherwise here.

At which point, I'll agree. If no matter what I say, you still insist that I won't convince you of anything, then there's no reason for me to say anything further. But I suggest that you re-evaluate your current approach to these threads in the future.


The above post is made with no malice whatsoever, and is in no way meant to be insulting or degrading outside of what is obviously stated. The internet has a habit of making people appear like huge jerk-offs even when they are in reality being perfectly calm, and I fully realize that most people will read it this way at first. Don't be fooled.

 

[Teran]

The above post is made with no malice whatsoever, and is in no way meant to be insulting or degrading outside of what is obviously stated. The internet has a habit of making people appear like huge jerk-offs even when they are in reality being perfectly calm, and I fully realize that most people will read it this way at first. Don't be fooled.

No wonder your username is Pure Aweseome.

 

[8AngeL8]

This mindset is the biggest problem with SWF right now. The fact that you're this assured that you won't change your mind doesn't reflect the pointlessness of the conversation, it reflects your own stubborn attitude.

I've had my opinion changed on several match-ups by people who knew their stuff and gave valid reasons that countered the ones I provided. So far the best reason I've seen for Wolf countering Falco is that he can Shine everything. Which, considering Wolf can do this to every character yet is somehow not God Tier, leads me to believe it's not that big a threat.

If you're going to say that noone is going to convince anyone, speak for yourself. I've been convinced to change my way of thought many times. So be truthful, be blunt, and just say that you will not be convinced otherwise here.

At which point, I'll agree. If no matter what I say, you still insist that I won't convince you of anything, then there's no reason for me to say anything further. But I suggest that you re-evaluate your current approach to these threads in the future.


The above post is made with no malice whatsoever, and is in no way meant to be insulting or degrading outside of what is obviously stated. The internet has a habit of making people appear like huge jerk-offs even when they are in reality being perfectly calm, and I fully realize that most people will read it this way at first. Don't be fooled.

My opinion was formed after talking to and playing with several of the top players in Texas, including one whose name is irrevocably linked with top level Falco play. This isn't anything against you because I like you from the boards, but unless I play you and we talk very extensively I'm not going to change my mind.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Don't let someone make you feel bad for using a character for whatever reasons you choose. Whether you choose them because they are the best, or you genuinely like them does not matter. And **** the people who call you a tier ***** or call you cheap. They are just scrubs who don't want to lose.

I play G&W, Snake, DDD, and Falco. I am about ready to kill my scrub friend.

There is nothing wrong with using high-tier chars. Not even Metaknight (inb4flames). People who disagree are not only scrubs, they are going against teachings of Socrates.

 

[Sky`]

Lol@Falco being better than Snake.

 

[XxBlackxX]

My opinion was formed after talking to and playing with several of the top players in Texas, including one whose name is irrevocably linked with top level Falco play. This isn't anything against you because I like you from the boards, but unless I play you and we talk very extensively I'm not going to change my mind.

dude.....horrible appeal to authority fallacy you got there. your reasoning for "your" opinions on these matchups are nothing more than pointless statements we've already countered, and since you have nothing else to back up your argument, you ALWAYS fall-back to "well, ive talked with (insert good player here), and they think this, so yeah". seriously, if you're so stubborn headed that you cannot at least CONCEDE that the points you've made so far as wrong, then well...arguing with you is pointless. what im wondering is, how did those respected players present their points to you to change your mind this way? or is this just because they're good players >_>

^no personal offense intended either, but the way you debate is starting is piss me off.

 

[8AngeL8]

What they told be boils down to: Everything that isn't a grab or laser on Falco is sub par. After he deals the damage from his grabs, he can't do almost nothing to you. Just shield everything. If he grabs, who cares, you won't die from a grab. Perfect shield lasers and wait to punish one of his attempts to kill. Against a cautious player, it's not unexpected to live to more than 200 damage against Falco.

I agree with them.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

If he grabs, who cares, you won't die from a grab.

Wow Angel, really now?

You can keep grabbing at high percents to get to your desired killing range. SHDL - Upsmash, Uptilt can kill at 170+ to most characters. Bair kills very well. Saying that Falco is useless after he has done his chaingrab damage is the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say about Falco in Brawl. Falco has the best camp game may I add. Theres a REASON he's third on the tier list.

 

[8AngeL8]

Clearly, if you stand there and eat his attacks you will die. Play more out of your shield, but not stupidly. Either way, you're not dying until a MUCH higher percent than Falco. He needs to outdamage you almost 2 to 1 to keep up.

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

Much as I hate Falco (I main Link) The OP did the right thing, pickign the character he likes. That's what my little brother did, lol. And you know what, all the power to him. As long as you didn't pick him up BECAUSE he's so good, it doesn't matter how good your main is. I main Link because he's kool as hell.

 

[Johnny Pteran]

Don't chaingrab and don't use the laser. He won't seem so good.

 

[Conviction]

Don't chaingrab and don't use the laser. He won't seem so good.

HEY GUESS WHAT? Play any character and take away some of their best aspects. They won't seem good anymore. Trolls like you need to give up.

 

[MBreeto]

I guess if it helps, tier's are opinions. Anyways, don't stop if your good.

 

[Johnny Pteran]

HEY GUESS WHAT? Play any character and take away some of their best aspects. They won't seem good anymore. Trolls like you need to give up.

Best aspects? More like... Chaingrabs and laser spam.

 

[pure_awesome]

Guys, Angel has already stated that he doesn't plan on listening to anyone who isn't a good player that he has played, no matter how good the points they bring up are. Please let the dicussion die, it's not worth anyone's time anymore.

And Johnny, Chaingrab and Laser spam are Falco's best aspects.

 

[Vorguen]

Taking into consideration the fact that he's MK, I'd say we have a pretty good matchup with him

Fox/Wolf definately don't beat us. CG spike. I've come to find that teching the spike is one of those "easier said than done" sort of things, and I still have yet to see it used in an actual match. (and you can just fake the spike)

As to Fox I don't know but for Wolf, he has a really good shot against Falco if he knows what he is doing. Against Falco's, I personally eat damage from far away until I reach 40%, just so I don't get chaingrabbed. That means nothing, considering Wolf is heavy and has a LOT of kill options on a lighter, bad at KO Falco.

Plus Falco is actually kind of easy to gimp, instead of going all the way to 100%'s to kill him, at like 60 I try to D-smash them off the stage, blaster them to force them to recover with Firebird, then jump on them and shine them.

Dead Falco.



NOW I'm not saying Falco has a disadvantage on Wolf, but just playing it safe and easy as Wolf can really keep the fight a lot more even than was thought. Plus most Falco's cannot imagine that I am blastering them at low %'s so they reflector me to 40% and just nonstop rolling away as a method to avoid their chaingrab...

 

[pure_awesome]

Wolf cannot Blaster fast enough to force Falco into Firebird.

 

[Vorguen]

How can he not? After D-smashing Falco off the edge and standing nearby lasering, it can cause him to fall down after taking a laser or just by trying to avoid it.

When he does he has to Firebird, and then you Shine him in the face. I really don't see what is so complicated about this, I do it all the time to Falco's and sometimes even to Fox's. It leaves your options open too in case you want to try something else or mix it up.

 

[8AngeL8]

Guys, Angel has already stated that he doesn't plan on listening to anyone who isn't a good player that he has played, no matter how good the points they bring up are. Please let the dicussion die, it's not worth anyone's time anymore.

I'm sorry, that phrase came out way more elitist and close minded than I intended it. What I was trying to say was that if you want to convince me, it'll have to be through playing me online and in PM's, because I've spent a lot of time going over this matchup, and it's going to take a LOT to change my mind.

 

[pure_awesome]

How can he not? After D-smashing Falco off the edge and standing nearby lasering, it can cause him to fall down after taking a laser or just by trying to avoid it.

When he does he has to Firebird, and then you Shine him in the face. I really don't see what is so complicated about this, I do it all the time to Falco's and sometimes even to Fox's. It leaves your options open too in case you want to try something else or mix it up.

Because after Falco takes the Blaster shot, he can just Phantasm again before Wolf has time to Blaster a second time. Even if Falco Phantasms extremely late, meaning he would have to Phantasm into the first shot on purpose, then he can get a second Phantasm out (which will be Blastered), and the third Phantasm will still be plenty high enough to get him to the ledge.

Essentially, this edgeguarding technique can be entirely circumvented by Falco hammering SideB like a lunatic. I've also seen Falco Phantasm completely through the projectile, effectively ignoring it, so there's that, too.

I'm sorry, that phrase came out way more elitist and close minded than I intended it. What I was trying to say was that if you want to convince me, it'll have to be through playing me online and in PM's, because I've spent a lot of time going over this matchup, and it's going to take a LOT to change my mind.

I'd much rather discuss here than in PM's so the rest of the Falco community can benefit from the information exchanged in our discussion. As for it taking a lot to change your mind, I think I've given you quite a bit.

-Falco has a much better long range game. Can he powershield all our Lasers? Of course. But we can PS all of his, too, and much easier, so the point is moot. Any attempt by Wolf to abuse his Reflector can be punished by IAP.

-The chaingrab, while not necessarily fatal, is still an extremely dangerous gamble for Wolf that ends in a lose/lose more situation. Or, Falco can end the chaingrab with a gatling combo, sticking Wolf with 60-65%, which can be half of Wolf's lifespan since fresh UpSmash kills him at about 125%. Though Wolf should be living longer than that.

-Falco won't be gimped by Wolf at high levels of play very often, nor will Wolf be gimped by Falco very often outside of the fake-spike chaingrab.

-Wolf's Shine is an advantage that he has on every character. Since it hasn't propelled him to God Tier-dom yet, I feel I'm safe in assuming it's not enough to turn this match-up around.

-Wolf's approach options are almost non-existent. Bair approach, Wolf's main weapon in every match-up, is both predictable and ineffective against Falco. It's either beat out cleanly or trades hits with both our Dair and Bair. That's not to mention how we can just powershield and IAP to punish. Or ShShine, or SHDL. Hell, I've seen Falco's Ftilt trade hits with it when angled up. Bair should not be a problem for a good Falco. Fair approach doesn't fare any better, and Boost Smash approach is easily Ftilted on reaction. And considering we can have two projectiles and a reflector all out at the same time, Blaster approach is not a good idea either.

So yes, Wolf has better kill moves. But where is this damage coming from? How is Wolf even hurting Falco enough to try to kill him? And for that matter, how is he getting close enough to Falco to use his kill moves when he has no approach options and Falco can just IAP away to reset spacing at the first sign of trouble? Falco may have trouble killing Wolf, but Wolf has trouble even touching Falco. Can't let you do that, Star Wolf.

 

[8AngeL8]

-Falco has a much better long range game. Can he powershield all our Lasers? Of course. But we can PS all of his, too, and much easier, so the point is moot. Any attempt by Wolf to abuse his Reflector can be punished by IAP.

If both players are determined to camp, it will end in a draw. Wolf has a safer approach (bair) and better ways to punish Falco's approach (Bair, Fsmash). So, if it ends in a draw, it will either go on forever or one will approach. Wolf is better equipped for both situations.

-The chaingrab, while not necessarily fatal, is still an extremely dangerous gamble for Wolf that ends in a lose/lose more situation. Or, Falco can end the chaingrab with a gatling combo, sticking Wolf with 60-65%, which can be half of Wolf's lifespan since fresh UpSmash kills him at about 125%. Though Wolf should be living longer than that.

How are you grabbing Wolf? He's just not a character that should be getting grabbed at high level play. Try playing Jumpman's Wolf and getting a chaingrab in. Wolf just has too much range to be grabbed when he's properly spaced. Yes, the chaingrab is devastating when you land it, but the Wolf messed up big time if he's getting grabbed at low percents by a Falco.

-Wolf's Shine is an advantage that he has on every character. Since it hasn't propelled him to God Tier-dom yet, I feel I'm safe in assuming it's not enough to turn this match-up around.

It works on everyone, but its importance in this matchup cannot be ignored. It's well known that Falco has a problem with killing, and the fact that Wolf has true invincibility frames easily available doesn't help that at all. Falco comes at you with a boost smash? Shine it and punish with Fsmash, grab, Dsmash, whatever. Once Wolf is past CG percentage, he has even more options than most characters to avoid dying to Falco's weak kill moves.

-Wolf's approach options are almost non-existent. Bair approach, Wolf's main weapon in every match-up, is both predictable and ineffective against Falco. It's either beat out cleanly or trades hits with both our Dair and Bair. That's not to mention how we can just powershield and IAP to punish. Or ShShine, or SHDL. Hell, I've seen Falco's Ftilt trade hits with it when angled up. Bair should not be a problem for a good Falco. Fair approach doesn't fare any better, and Boost Smash approach is easily Ftilted on reaction. And considering we can have two projectiles and a reflector all out at the same time, Blaster approach is not a good idea either.

How many good Wolfs have you actually faced? A wall of bairs when done perfectly is far more dangerous than you seem to imply here.

 

[pure_awesome]

If both players are determined to camp, it will end in a draw. Wolf has a safer approach (bair) and better ways to punish Falco's approach (Bair, Fsmash). So, if it ends in a draw, it will either go on forever or one will approach. Wolf is better equipped for both situations.

Bair is not a safe approach against Falco, and I've explained why.

Falco is far better equipped for the long range game and better equipped handling Wolf's approaches, as I've explained. I see no reason why Falco should ever approach.

Wolf either has to sit there and defend himself at a distance from a vastly superior Laser game mixed in with the occasional IAP, or approach and get shut down. Either way, advantage is pretty clearly for Falco.

How are you grabbing Wolf? He's just not a character that should be getting grabbed at high level play. Try playing Jumpman's Wolf and getting a chaingrab in. Wolf just has too much range to be grabbed when he's properly spaced. Yes, the chaingrab is devastating when you land it, but the Wolf messed up big time if he's getting grabbed at low percents by a Falco.

It's very hard to get a grab off on Wolf. That's why I called it occasional.

The fact remains that it's there and can be used to punish any mistake Wolf makes at early percents, and punish it hard. Wolf can't say the same against Falco. Plus, the mere existence of the chaingrab forces Wolf to stay further away from Falco at lower percents, which is exactly where Falco wants him to be.

It works on everyone, but its importance in this matchup cannot be ignored. It's well known that Falco has a problem with killing, and the fact that Wolf has true invincibility frames easily available doesn't help that at all. Falco comes at you with a boost smash? Shine it and punish with Fsmash, grab, Dsmash, whatever. Once Wolf is past CG percentage, he has even more options than most characters to avoid dying to Falco's weak kill moves.

Game and Watch trying to Dsmash you? Shine it. Pikachu going for a Dsmash? Shine. Kirby Fsmash? Shine like a madman. If Shining kill moves was that easy, Wolf would never die. I'm yet to see any Wolfs use the Shine to the level of effectiveness you're describing.

Falco's trouble killing shouldn't even factor into Wolf's use of the shine. Either the kill move lands or it doesn't, that doesn't change from character to character. Every character has to deal with Wolf's Shine, Falco will just be doing it at higher percents than others.

How many good Wolfs have you actually faced? A wall of bairs when done perfectly is far more dangerous than you seem to imply here.

Wall of Bairs is an amazing approach against the majority of the cast, but the majority of the cast don't have the sheer number of options that Falco has. For the majority of the cast, shielding Wolf's Bair does nothing, since he can just DI out of range of being punished. Falco's IAP OoS doesn't have that problem. For the majority of the cast, they don't have moves that can beat it out. Falco has both Bair and Dair, which both beat it and both come out faster than Wolf's Bair.

Add in the fact that it's by far Wolf's best approach option against Falco, so it's going to be predictable the majority of the time, and you've got Wolf's main weapon looking pretty lackluster. Bair is still useful and will do damage, but it's definitely not enough to swing the match-up in Wolf's favour.

 

[Nexus Bond]

Essentially, this edgeguarding technique can be entirely circumvented by Falco hammering SideB like a lunatic. I've also seen Falco Phantasm completely through the projectile, effectively ignoring it, so there's that, too.

Hammering SideB may accidentally cancel the phantasm, and for the first 1/3 of the distance that phantasm travels, Falco is invincible. This fact makes it an excellent spacing option, since when the opponent approaches, Falco can phantasm through it and continue camping on the other side. This is virtually unpunishable. And I do agree that Wolf is disadvantaged against Falco.

 

[CY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WKnfOTylO4&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkmNKVnlvmw&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKq3wSsv26s&feature=channel

lol falco sucks. these are just some examples of falco camping against good players. also, falco does have a hard time killing, but if you can set up the kills right it isn't too hard.

 

[pure_awesome]

Hammering SideB may accidentally cancel the phantasm, and for the first 1/3 of the distance that phantasm travels, Falco is invincible. This fact makes it an excellent spacing option, since when the opponent approaches, Falco can phantasm through it and continue camping on the other side. This is virtually unpunishable. And I do agree that Wolf is disadvantaged against Falco.

Are you sure about that? If so, that's awesome. I've been trying to figure out what on earth was going on with that, and that does make sense. Good stuff.

 

[Vlade]

Yeah I think we reached a consensus on that invincibility with the phantasm a couple of months ago, but anyway. It's why it beats wolf's bair.

 

[TKD]

Falco's only "2nd best" according to match-ups. Falco's match-up advantage over the rest of the cast is 34%, vs Meta Knight's 36%.

OK then, go play Dedede, the 6th best character. I mean, according to you, it's better to play a bad character, than playing the ones you like, right? By the way, avoiding the exact number of 5 top characters is weird.

I swear Brawl is the game with the most complaints about characters being good.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

You should feel bad. It takes little skill to SHDL and chaingrab. I just got out of a wifi game with this god**** falco who couldn't beat me with any other character other than G&W, so I hate you all.

 

[Denzi]

You should feel bad. It takes little skill to SHDL and chaingrab. I just got out of a wifi game with this god**** falco who couldn't beat me with any other character other than G&W, so I hate you all.

So much hate for Falco...

Maybe if you're nicer we'll let you have some of our bread.

 

[Tommy_G]

Don't chaingrab and don't use the laser. He won't seem so good.

Ok take away captain falcons.....ummm....ok maybe he doesn't have anything good to take away.

If you take away what makes a character good....then he becomes bad? No way.