Rant / Other I need to vent.

[Oz o:]

Online is the single worst thing that happened to this game, and it's singlehandedly responsible for killing my passion for this game. Don't get me wrong, I still love the game, in a way. But wifi turns it into an absolute mockery of what it could be. It's like all the bad things are exaggerated.

I didn't know how bad online was until it was my only choice (thanks quarantine). And yeah, it may very well be something we all have to deal with, but you'd be lying if you said it didn't benefit a lot of wifi players. There's an onslaught of players that just benefit from it, and it's usually the worse ones. In no other game can you get away with being this bad, and still have some degree of success. I've seen tons of braindead idiots get away without even needing to know half there is to know about the game, and what real "fundamentals" are about. And this is one of the things that bugs me the most- a lot of us that have been playing competitively for years actually had to struggle to even reach mid level. I shouldn't have to be losing to some braindead idiot constantly doing rolls, spotdodges and mashing A, especially when I know he's going to do it and how, but thanks wifi. Alright, so I'm sure a lot of us already know how bad it is, and yet, so many people still defend it to some degree. They're not even fully convinced about it, and it's usually more along the lines of "well it's all that we have right now...", like that's somehow a blessing.

You can get away with so ****ing much in this game thanks to wifi, and it's sickening. It's an insult to my dignity as a player and to my person. Imagine having a dream, and this things just ****s on your dream. I really thought this was going to be my game, at last. But no, literally everyone and their mother is doing better, and they're allowed to play ****ty and I'm not even allowed to actually read my opponent.


Thanks a ****ing a lot. Enjoy while you still can.

 

[Oz o:]

And for the record, I was a lot better of a person before any of this. I had no trouble taking responsibility for my own bad habits, but one day I had enough. I realise I'm a respectable player within my own terms, and I did what I could. Wifi is trash, and I seriously doubt how anyone can truly improve from this.

 

[Nah]

The thing to do would be to stop playing on WiFi, permanently. If it causes you that much mental anguish, it's clearly not worth it to continue to engage with online Smash Bros.

We are still in the middle of a pandemic, but the thing to keep in mind is that it is temporary. Vaccines have been approved already, this will come to and end someday, even if it's not tomorrow or next week. Whatever deterioration of your skills might happen can be undone in time when we're not all restricted to online.

 

[StrangeKitten]

It is seriously bad, to the point of feeling like a different game entirely. It's the reason I prefer to just use CPUs for practice.

 

[Eremurus]

Download Yuzu.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Online is the single worst thing that happened to this game, and it's singlehandedly responsible for killing my passion for this game. Don't get me wrong, I still love the game, in a way. But wifi turns it into an absolute mockery of what it could be. It's like all the bad things are exaggerated.

I didn't know how bad online was until it was my only choice (thanks quarantine). And yeah, it may very well be something we all have to deal with, but you'd be lying if you said it didn't benefit a lot of wifi players. There's an onslaught of players that just benefit from it, and it's usually the worse ones. In no other game can you get away with being this bad, and still have some degree of success. I've seen tons of braindead idiots get away without even needing to know half there is to know about the game, and what real "fundamentals" are about. And this is one of the things that bugs me the most- a lot of us that have been playing competitively for years actually had to struggle to even reach mid level. I shouldn't have to be losing to some braindead idiot constantly doing rolls, spotdodges and mashing A, especially when I know he's going to do it and how, but thanks wifi. Alright, so I'm sure a lot of us already know how bad it is, and yet, so many people still defend it to some degree. They're not even fully convinced about it, and it's usually more along the lines of "well it's all that we have right now...", like that's somehow a blessing.

You can get away with so ****ing much in this game thanks to wifi, and it's sickening. It's an insult to my dignity as a player and to my person. Imagine having a dream, and this things just ****s on your dream. I really thought this was going to be my game, at last. But no, literally everyone and their mother is doing better, and they're allowed to play ****ty and I'm not even allowed to actually read my opponent.


Thanks a ****ing a lot. Enjoy while you still can.

And for the record, I was a lot better of a person before any of this. I had no trouble taking responsibility for my own bad habits, but one day I had enough. I realise I'm a respectable player within my own terms, and I did what I could. Wifi is trash, and I seriously doubt how anyone can truly improve from this.

It is seriously bad, to the point of feeling like a different game entirely. It's the reason I prefer to just use CPUs for practice.

It is not easy to work hard at honing your skills only to have something as simple and external as online lag interfere with your ability to display those skills. Wait... "Only?" Why did you pursue mastery of the "fundamentals?" Was it to feel depressed or angry, or was it to enjoy and appreciate the finer aspects of the game?

Think of , say Mozart. What if he was angry because the climate was frequently cold in his room, interfering with his fingers, and thus his symphony, while others, who were less skilled, simply pressed 'magic number' keys, thus making a more pleasant sound than Mozart, who was trying to play at a higher level of skill? He would be sizzling for a reason he should be flattered for.

I think you should consider it a badge of mastery if you are losing because you are trying to play a more refined game.

 

[Oz o:]

The thing to do would be to stop playing on WiFi, permanently. If it causes you that much mental anguish, it's clearly not worth it to continue to engage with online Smash Bros.


We are still in the middle of a pandemic, but the thing to keep in mind is that it is temporary. Vaccines have been approved already, this will come to and end someday, even if it's not tomorrow or next week. Whatever deterioration of your skills might happen can be undone in time when we're not all restricted to online.

Like, that seems like the obvious "solution", but it's also a lot easier said than done. Imagine, you love Smash. How long can you really go without playing it? Eventually, you just get bored.

I've had friends over all throughout quarantine, even if it's 1-2 times a week. The first times, it always felt like playing so much online in the beginning really contributed to making my tech skill deteriorate, as you say. People just assume you naturally play a lot better offline, but it doesn't always translate like that. I used to beat my friend very well before the quarantine, and now I struggle miles more than I used to. I think it's easy to tell what went wrong, rather than to assume he magically became that much better all of sudden...

It is seriously bad, to the point of feeling like a different game entirely. It's the reason I prefer to just use CPUs for practice.

And how is that working out for you?

It is not easy to work hard at honing your skills only to have something as simple and external as online lag interfere with your ability to display those skills. Wait... "Only?" Why did you pursue mastery of the "fundamentals?" Was it to feel depressed or angry, or was it to enjoy and appreciate the finer aspects of the game?

Think of , say Mozart. What if he was angry because the climate was frequently cold in his room, interfering with his fingers, and thus his symphony, while others, who were less skilled, simply pressed 'magic number' keys, thus making a more pleasant sound than Mozart, who was trying to play at a higher level of skill? He would be sizzling for a reason he should be flattered for.

I think you should consider it a badge of mastery if you are losing because you are trying to play a more refined game.

I appreciate you'd go as far to make such a comparison. I personally don't claim to be an insane player, but I certainly know I'm a lot better than this, which is why it's been a huge dent on my confidence as a player. I never really felt this way until online became the norm, and I had lesser players be considered "better" only because they produce online (and strictly online) results.

It isn't easy at all, as you say. While I also wouldn't go as far as to say I've mastered a lot these things, I do feel like the effort I put in rarely pays off next to someone who seems to do half the work.

 

[StrangeKitten]

And how is that working out for you?

Pretty well! Bit of a mixed bag, since CPUs don't really adapt, and their frame-perfect dodges and lack of optimal plays is a bummer at times, since that's not what the experience of fighting a human player would be. But I'm still practicing combos, neutral, and everything with offline timing. Also decent matchup exp with every character since I just set them to random. It may not be the best, but you get a good sense for how all their moves work. Better than online where I'd see a lot of Samus and no Duck Hunt, then get blindsided because one of my friends does indeed play Duck Hunt.

And your post is just more proof for me, that CPUs are better for practice than online, for my purposes of wiping the floor with my friends when we have get-togethers (which we haven't in over a year, but hopefully someday). You're not the first person I've seen say that playing online made them a lot worse offline.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Like, that seems like the obvious "solution", but it's also a lot easier said than done. Imagine, you love Smash. How long can you really go without playing it? Eventually, you just get bored.

I've had friends over all throughout quarantine, even if it's 1-2 times a week. The first times, it always felt like playing so much online in the beginning really contributed to making my tech skill deteriorate, as you say. People just assume you naturally play a lot better offline, but it doesn't always translate like that. I used to beat my friend very well before the quarantine, and now I struggle miles more than I used to. I think it's easy to tell what went wrong, rather than to assume he magically became that much better all of sudden...


And how is that working out for you?


I appreciate you'd go as far to make such a comparison. I personally don't claim to be an insane player, but I certainly know I'm a lot better than this, which is why it's been a huge dent on my confidence as a player. I never really felt this way until online became the norm, and I had lesser players be considered "better" only because they produce online (and strictly online) results.

It isn't easy at all, as you say. While I also wouldn't go as far as to say I've mastered a lot these things, I do feel like the effort I put in rarely pays off next to someone who seems to do half the work.

Two questions: First, by what standard does effort pay off? If you simply mean by the number of games won, then consider this: There are people who are considered the best Ganondorf players in the world. In terms of effort put out, these players should, by the above reasoning (in Brawl anyway, since that is what I played), have more victories than anyone else, because Ganondorf would arguably be the worst character, and would therefore require more effort to reach the same results as someone who mained a high-tier character like Marth.

Second, refer back to Mozart. If the standard for paid off effort is playing the piano the way it should be played to reach given results, then it is not Mozart's fault for cold weather; he has ALREADY experienced the pay off for hard work, and once the room warms up, sure he might be a little rusty, but it is truth to him, even if no one else, that he knows how to play the piano with excellent results. He may not be able to play as he once did without time taken to dust himself off, but he should be satisfied that he is a skilled pianist, regardless of his ability to reproduce that former skill in front of a demanding audience, and then does the audience decide whether he is good? Maybe they will, and by the standards first stated in this post, they might be right. But then the question becomes, is Mozart a good player or bad because the audience said so? What do you believe?

 

[Oz o:]

Two questions: First, by what standard does effort pay off? If you simply mean by the number of games won, then consider this: There are people who are considered the best Ganondorf players in the world. In terms of effort put out, these players should, by the above reasoning (in Brawl anyway, since that is what I played), have more victories than anyone else, because Ganondorf would arguably be the worst character, and would therefore require more effort to reach the same results as someone who mained a high-tier character like Marth.

Second, refer back to Mozart. If the standard for paid off effort is playing the piano the way it should be played to reach given results, then it is not Mozart's fault for cold weather; he has ALREADY experienced the pay off for hard work, and once the room warms up, sure he might be a little rusty, but it is truth to him, even if no one else, that he knows how to play the piano with excellent results. He may not be able to play as he once did without time taken to dust himself off, but he should be satisfied that he is a skilled pianist, regardless of his ability to reproduce that former skill in front of a demanding audience, and then does the audience decide whether he is good? Maybe they will, and by the standards first stated in this post, they might be right. But then the question becomes, is Mozart a good player or bad because the audience said so? What do you believe?

I understand what you mean, and I suppose I understand... at least, to some extent. I do admit, there are times I put too much value into what other people think of me, and in Smash, specifically. I forget to really believe in my own self, and always remember that I really do know how I play, regardless of the outcome.

I'll remember that, moving forward.

 

[Doc Monocle]

I understand what you mean, and I suppose I understand... at least, to some extent. I do admit, there are times I put too much value into what other people think of me, and in Smash, specifically. I forget to really believe in my own self, and always remember that I really do know how I play, regardless of the outcome.

I'll remember that, moving forward.

What is more, you will gain the respect of others if, after losing or winning, you demonstrate an understanding that there is more to a good game than skill or notoriety. You came to play to have fun with someone else (whether they are good or bad), so get fun out of it, and don't let the competitive nature of online gaming rob you of that .

 

[Kokiden]

My exact sentiments tbh.

I went on a break from smash for months on end, didn't even touch the game because a lot of things about the game and the fanbase just put me off for a long time.

Sephiroth came out, got back into it, and after playing online for awhile, I'm starting to feel turned off again. Playing with joycons in handheld, and using characters that have a lot of lag, in addition to online just being ****, doesn't help the experience either.

Might go on a hiatus for awhile if my feelings of annoyance gets any worse than it is now, which is most likely.

 

[Doc Monocle]

My exact sentiments tbh.

I went on a break from smash for months on end, didn't even touch the game because a lot of things about the game and the fanbase just put me off for a long time.

Sephiroth came out, got back into it, and after playing online for awhile, I'm starting to feel turned off again. Playing with joycons in handheld, and using characters that have a lot of lag, in addition to online just being ****, doesn't help the experience either.

Might go on a hiatus for awhile if my feelings of annoyance gets any worse than it is now, which is most likely.

I refer you to the above exchange after Eremurus' first post. I hope you find it just as relevant to you.

 

[Kokiden]

I refer you to the above exchange after Eremurus' first post. I hope you find it just as relevant to you.

I've read the replies. Doesn't stop it from being a frustrating experience all around.

Just irks me that all the characters I like, the balance team like to slap massive lag on them. It just gets amplified online and it's annoying as heck.

 

[Doc Monocle]

I've read the replies. Doesn't stop it from being a frustrating experience all around.

Just irks me that all the characters I like, the balance team like to slap massive lag on them. It just gets amplified online and it's annoying as heck.

I am in total understanding of the idea. In Brawl, one of my favorite characters is gloabally considered to be atguably the worst. It somestimes felt like there were conspiracies to make the character inferior, but I would argue that if this was the case, yet I still found the character fun, they must be of accidentally high quality, and the developers have failed to strip them of the things I valued most-- enjoyability and their not so nonexistent strengths. Is not the purpose of Smash Bros. (or any other game for that matter) supposed to be entertainment for the player? Do not let something like internet lag ruin it for you.

I may be accused of ignorance, since I have only played offline, but it is important to remember that the purpose of online play is to ENJOY playing and communicating with distant players, even if they lose sight of this. It is both an opportunity to exhibit exemplary character, sportsmanship, conduct, and an outlet to demonstrated that you have the grit necessary to use competitively a character with a track record for destruction in the most nerve-wracking context of gameplay. That takes an intrepid stand for exploiting your primary reason for playing (to have fun) when the odds are stacked against you. In many games, this is considered to make them more fun,

What if it took literally one minute to execute and one minute to recover from your favorite attack. Other players know it is not an easy move to land ( let us face it, this exaggeratively slow attack is practically impossible to land ), but that just means you have the audacity to try, regardless of what others will think for failure. I mean, if you ask me to try and use Ganondorf's Warlock Punch or up tilt against a competent player, I would quake in my boots, and probably call you mad, so in my book (and hopefully, now yours), you would get extra respect from me for even attempting these in a serious match, especially against characters that seem to counter with seemingly no effort, such as Pit or Marth. Consider it a moment to pat yourself on the back, as your character flies toward the blast zone.

 

[Nah]

I'm late but

Like, that seems like the obvious "solution", but it's also a lot easier said than done. Imagine, you love Smash. How long can you really go without playing it? Eventually, you just get bored.

I don't mean drop the game entirely until covid is over, just cut out the online play part of it.

 

[Internal Frickface]

there's an entirely seperate meta for wifi in smash ultimate, that's how bad it is

 

[Kokiden]

there's an entirely seperate meta for wifi in smash ultimate, that's how bad it is

Is there a chart or tier list for wifi? I'm curious to take a look if one exists.

 

[Oz o:]

Is there a chart or tier list for wifi? I'm curious to take a look if one exists.

There's nothing set in stone, but it's usually a given that characters like Sonic, Samus, Zelda and Luigi are a lot better on wifi (potentially Top 5). They're pretty solid characters offline, it's just the average wifi player is super hard carried by lag.

 

[Ben Holt]

There's nothing set in stone, but it's usually a given that characters like Sonic, Samus, Zelda and Luigi are a lot better on wifi (potentially Top 5). They're pretty solid characters offline, it's just the average wifi player is super hard carried by lag.

Lag throws me off. Lol. I'm the kind of idiot that if a move is cut off by lag, I input it again, causing me to use moves at inopportune times.

 

[Oz o:]

Lag throws me off. Lol. I'm the kind of idiot that if a move is cut off by lag, I input it again, causing me to use moves at inopportune times.

Same exact thing on my end. It's especially noticeable when you fight a lot of mashy and combo heavy characters (like C.Falcon & Falco). I think people heavily understimate how easy it is to mash, especially when half the time, it's on accident. A lot of the time, I input an airdodge and I end up airdodging half a second later, right after I got hit.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Is there a chart or tier list for wifi? I'm curious to take a look if one exists.

Way to use your brain! That is the kind of inquisitive mindset that I find helps calm me down when I am angry or disturbed. For all other users on this thread, I hope we all follow this lead, and also ask questions, not only about this game, but also about why you feel the way you do, why others feel the way they do, and what can be relied upon to help us feel better.

 

[Ben Holt]

Same exact thing on my end. It's especially noticeable when you fight a lot of mashy and combo heavy characters (like C.Falcon & Falco). I think people heavily understimate how easy it is to mash, especially when half the time, it's on accident. A lot of the time, I input an airdodge and I end up airdodging half a second later, right after I got hit.

This is exactly why I struggle with Mario (my main), but excel at Dr. Mario, since Down-B lingers. It kills my OCD that my main is not my highest GSP.

 

[Kokiden]

Way to use your brain! That is the kind of inquisitive mindset that I find helps calm me down when I am angry or disturbed. For all other users on this thread, I hope we all follow this lead, and also ask questions, not only about this game, but also about why you feel the way you do, why others feel the way they do, and what can be relied upon to help us feel better.

It's only temporary though. Getting back online and having to struggle with lag/online, and other things, just sets things off again.

You know, I really wish Ultimate was my fav smash game, but gameplay wise, it's just so frustrating to deal with.

Honestly I think I may just go on another hiatus because it's not really fun for me anymore. It's a shame because there's most likely never going to be a smash game this big, but the gameplay... wow...

The best way to describe it is it deliberately slows and dumbs things down. It's just not responsive and snappy, but then again it's a game aimed at casuals so I guess they had to compromise...

 

[Doc Monocle]

It's only temporary though. Getting back online and having to struggle with lag/online, and other things, just sets things off again.

You know, I really wish Ultimate was my fav smash game, but gameplay wise, it's just so frustrating to deal with.

Honestly I think I may just go on another hiatus because it's not really fun for me anymore. It's a shame because there's most likely never going to be a smash game this big, but the gameplay... wow...

The best way to describe it is it deliberately slows and dumbs things down. It's just not responsive and snappy, but then again it's a game aimed at casuals so I guess they had to compromise...

Temporary or not, it is a step in the right direction. Never cease in seeking a more peaceful mind. Look for something good; look for something ageless...

 

[xzx]

Ultimate has many fundamental flaws that go beyond the online. (The buffer system, low hitstun, input delay etc.)

 

[xzx]

Is there a chart or tier list for wifi? I'm curious to take a look if one exists.

Many top players (like ESAM) has done an online tier list (go check out their youtube videos). But in general slow, heavy characters benefit a lot in wifi since it is much harder for you to punish them. Characters like Ganondorf, Bowser, King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Incineroar and King K. Rool benefits a lot in wifi. Then there are characters like Ness, Sonic, the Belmonts, the Samuses, Mii Gunner, Little Mac, Ike, Link, Min Min and Byleth who benefits a lot in online too.

I have a feeling that why many of the "heavy" characters don't get buffed is because they are ridiculous online. And really, Sakurai must fix the online first before (rightfully) buffing them.

It's so tragic that Sakurai actually considered rollback netcode for the game but decided against it as it could cause other network problems (or something like that) that Sakurai wanted to avoid. Such a shame really...

 

[Oz o:]

I always feel wifi just made me ****tier. Even if I never stopped playing offline 1-2 a week, I somehow feel even worse than I was playing around Feb/March. And it's ironic, because I feel I learned a lot of new stuff (by no means useless). I feel even more dependent on precision than I used to, and any slight change into timings just ****s my play completely.

There's some weeklies in South Florida, and I'm performing like absolute ass. I can't even move the way I want to, which should be a very basic requirement.

 

[Oz o:]

Many top players (like ESAM) has done an online tier list (go check out their youtube videos). But in general slow, heavy characters benefit a lot in wifi since it is much harder for you to punish them. Characters like Ganondorf, Bowser, King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Incineroar and King K. Rool benefits a lot in wifi. Then there are characters like Ness, Sonic, the Belmonts, the Samuses, Mii Gunner, Little Mac, Ike, Link, Min Min and Byleth who benefits a lot in online too.

I have a feeling that why many of the "heavy" characters don't get buffed is because they are ridiculous online. And really, Sakurai must fix the online first before (rightfully) buffing them.

It's so tragic that Sakurai actually considered rollback netcode for the game but decided against it as it could cause other network problems (or something like that) that Sakurai wanted to avoid. Such a shame really...

I really don't see how Byleth benefits from online, and this is coming from a Byleth/Zelda main. Their spacing requires precision, and it's not like you have any good combos other than Nair > Dash Attack. I honestly don't get why MKLeo is even using Byleth more online, when Joker is legitimately better. I've seen far lesser players get away with a very basic Ea > Dash Attack/Dash Grab neutral...and it's basically it. Now imagine someone who actually has everything else down.

The only Byleth players that get "better" online are the bad ones that only do stuff like FSmash & Side B, and it's the same with low level Zelda players.

 

[Doc Monocle]

I really don't see how Byleth benefits from online, and this is coming from a Byleth/Zelda main. Their spacing requires precision, and it's not like you have any good combos other than Nair > Dash Attack. I honestly don't get why MKLeo is even using Byleth more online, when Joker is legitimately better. I've seen far lesser players get away with a very basic Ea > Dash Attack/Dash Grab neutral...and it's basically it. Now imagine someone who actually has everything else down.

The only Byleth players that get "better" online are the bad ones that only do stuff like FSmash & Side B, and it's the same with low level Zelda players.

(Just to let you know, Smashboards prefers it when you edit a post rather than post twice consecutively. It would be considered spam.) Hello again. I understand Byleth (I have no idea who that is other than that you seem to suggest they are similar to Zelda) gives you a hard time online. Maybe there is a way around some of the trouble. I may not be the best person to take advice from since it has been YEARS since I played BRAWL, but I am more than willing to make input if you tell me what some specific scenarios you encounter online are. I could refer back to what I remember of Zelda (assuming too much has not changed), and see if I could be of assistance. I imagine there must be some sort of solution that could work for you if there really are specific characters that benefit or suffer from online play.

Of course, I would understand if you think my experience with Smash Bros. is too outdated or irrelevant, but I am genuinely willing to help if it makes you less prone to blowing a gasket whenever you play. You made a whole thread where people rant, and most of your posts so far seem to relate to the online scene. I would feel bad passing over this every time when I know the users therein are getting unravelled by the frustration of hindered competition.

 

[Oz o:]

(Just to let you know, Smashboards prefers it when you edit a post rather than post twice consecutively. It would be considered spam.) Hello again. I understand Byleth (I have no idea who that is other than that you seem to suggest they are similar to Zelda) gives you a hard time online. Maybe there is a way around some of the trouble. I may not be the best person to take advice from since it has been YEARS since I played BRAWL, but I am more than willing to make input if you tell me what some specific scenarios you encounter online are. I could refer back to what I remember of Zelda (assuming too much has not changed), and see if I could be of assistance. I imagine there must be some sort of solution that could work for you if there really are specific characters that benefit or suffer from online play.

Of course, I would understand if you think my experience with Smash Bros. is too outdated or irrelevant, but I am genuinely willing to help if it makes you less prone to blowing a gasket whenever you play. You made a whole thread where people rant, and most of your posts so far seem to relate to the online scene. I would feel bad passing over this every time when I know the users therein are getting unravelled by the frustration of hindered competition.

I've also played since Brawl. Things change game by game, and I find Zelda to be a lot more stiff before Smash Ultimate. She can definitely do more than she could back then, and she's finally out of Bottom tier... most people don't even consider her Low tier.

And for the record, I'm not really complaining about Byleth online. They're definitely not in the least comparable to Zelda, in terms of playstyle.

 

[Doc Monocle]

I've also played since Brawl. Things change game by game, and I find Zelda to be a lot more stiff before Smash Ultimate. She can definitely do more than she could back then, and she's finally out of Bottom tier... most people don't even consider her Low tier.

And for the record, I'm not really complaining about Byleth online. They're definitely not in the least comparable to Zelda, in terms of playstyle.

Contrary to popular opinion, I never believed that Zelda was bottom tier for reasons I shall explain here. Here is my analysis of Zelda, rough without being vague. Tell me if the description does not work well for her in Ultimate:

Movement: Like Ganondorf and Link, her agility, grounded or not, leaves much to be desired, so [She would rather stay put.]

Attack speed: Jab, Ftilt, Utilt, Dash attack, Dtilt, and all smashes start quickly, so [ Whether she is on the move or static, she can play reactively with great competence ]

Specials: These do not excell at yielding rewards at one instant. Neutral special reflects projectiles, lasts a long time, has clear, long lasting activity, with hitboxes throughout the duration, up special plays mind games and gives her a sense of abruptness when Zelda is not on the receiving end of pressure, and side special has high range and interruptibility, but requires preemptive release of B in order to react to a ramming opponent in time, so overall [She has tools to use in the neutral for fighting against ranged or brawling types.]

Aerials: All of them are difficult to sweetspot, or otherwise land reliably, but are very powerful when they do connect, so [She prefers to keep things on the ground, reserving midair attacks for precise finishers when the opponent is lined up just right.]

Hit duration: She has plenty of attacks whose hitboxes are active for a while. I cannot count how many times I would read an up smash while approaching from the air, only to fast fall prematurely in order to punish, and get greeted by those torturously long hitlag properties. [Her grounded attacks have good stopping power.]

Smashes: The range, knockback and startup benefits of her Fsmash and Usmash force the opponent to rethink their approach, granting her some time if she does not spam and get read, so virtually, it can be like having minimal endlag if you can keep your opponent nervous while they are approaching. Her killer attacks also are her threat control attacks, thus [She can defend herself and potentially K.O. while she is playing mind games.]

Summary: Consider the brackets together. Some things I did not include to maximize brevity of this post. [ She prefers to stay put and fight reactively at close or long range from the ground, using specials to convert the neutral states of the battle into an advantage, and is unnerving while she does so, especially against brawlers like Ganondorf. Almost regardless of directional input, or absence thereof, she has tools for stopping an opponent in their tracks.] Zelda seems to me a camper with solid defense under any circumstances.

If all this seems correct to you, perhaps it would not hurt to mention some instances of Zelda issues online to see if there are ways to work around them. Eh?

 

[Kokiden]

Ultimate has many fundamental flaws that go beyond the online. (The buffer system, low hitstun, input delay etc.)

Yeah I definitely agree with this. Really puts a hamper on intuitive and responsive play.

Many top players (like ESAM) has done an online tier list (go check out their youtube videos). But in general slow, heavy characters benefit a lot in wifi since it is much harder for you to punish them. Characters like Ganondorf, Bowser, King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Incineroar and King K. Rool benefits a lot in wifi. Then there are characters like Ness, Sonic, the Belmonts, the Samuses, Mii Gunner, Little Mac, Ike, Link, Min Min and Byleth who benefits a lot in online too.

I have a feeling that why many of the "heavy" characters don't get buffed is because they are ridiculous online. And really, Sakurai must fix the online first before (rightfully) buffing them.

It's so tragic that Sakurai actually considered rollback netcode for the game but decided against it as it could cause other network problems (or something like that) that Sakurai wanted to avoid. Such a shame really...

Oh yeah I definitely ran into a lot of those characters online.

There was this one time, the net was so laggy, Ness PK Fired me constantly and I couldn't do anything about it... Lukas just spams PK Freeze too. I guess you can say I've come to really loath playing against Ness and Lukas. The Belmonts are just scary.

 

[Oz o:]

Yeah I definitely agree with this. Really puts a hamper on intuitive and responsive play.

That is probably my biggest problem, because I pretty much entirely rely on that. I notice passive players that are very simplistic get away with it a lot more often, when it only used to be a matter of simply reading their defensive options... but now that's a lot harder, because all those frames matter. It can't be that simply beating an opponent sitting in shield is x20 times harder than jUsT gRaB bR0.

There was this one time, the net was so laggy, Ness PK Fired me constantly and I couldn't do anything about it... Lukas just spams PK Freeze too.

Stuff like that shouldn't have to be hard to counter, but somehow it is. I used to simply shield or jump over it.

 

[Oz o:]

I spent months losing passion for the game and in myself only to play like **** offline. I legitimately feel I got ****ing worse from playing wifi. I swear to god I was doing better before any of this, and now I'm just doing worse than ever. And no, everyone and their mother didn't magically get better all of sudden. I got ****ing worse, and I know it.

What a ****ty wifi era. Bad players have a blast getting carried by a handicapped version of the game. Enjoy it.

 

[Doc Monocle]

I spent months losing passion for the game and in myself only to play like **** offline. I legitimately feel I got ****ing worse from playing wifi. I swear to god I was doing better before any of this, and now I'm just doing worse than ever. And no, everyone and their mother didn't magically get better all of sudden. I got ****ing worse, and I know it.

What a ****ty wifi era. Bad players have a blast getting carried by a handicapped version of the game. Enjoy it.

You were online again, eh? Have you paid a visit to my thread Smash Player Highlights and Input Showcase? It might give you a healthier outlet. I already have one participant in Janx_uwu.

 

[Kokiden]

I spent months losing passion for the game and in myself only to play like **** offline. I legitimately feel I got ****ing worse from playing wifi. I swear to god I was doing better before any of this, and now I'm just doing worse than ever. And no, everyone and their mother didn't magically get better all of sudden. I got ****ing worse, and I know it.

What a ****ty wifi era. Bad players have a blast getting carried by a handicapped version of the game. Enjoy it.

The kicker for me is, I don't know if the problem is me, that I, as the player, genuinely suck, if it's the controller I'm using, or online.

My GC adapter came today, and using the GC is sooo different from the joy cons. Going to take awhile for me to get used to it.