"I write for my friends" - the growing Ike guide by Kirk and Empy. Updating again!

[Arturito_Burrito]

if he flew in a slant instead of strait up then you did maybe the guy did it on someone who flew more horizontally than vertically but i actually don't know i didn't pay to much attention to it

 

[Kodachrome]

It's really tough to sweetspot that d-tilt, though. It's about as easy as pulling off the two-hit down smash in a match.

Actually, probably worse-they have to be all up in your biznass, and d-tilt is super slow.

 

[payasofobia]

Hey kirk, after a testing sesion in group brawl, i made a list of projectiles that can be stopped with the jabs. Maybe you could put it in the guide if you find it helpful.

Mario: fireball.
luigi: fireball .
peach: every onion except the rotten one.
link: arrows, boomerang.
toon link: arrows, boomerang.
samus: uncharged charge shot, super missiles, normal missiles.
pit: arrows.
rob: uncharged down b.
king dedede: wadle dees and doos
olimar: all of the pikmen, and , even though they arent exactly projectile attacks, olimar's forward smash, and down smash pikmen can be stopped with the kick following the jab.
pikachu: neutral b, (both on air and on the ground)
ivysaur: razor leaf.
lucario: uncharged aura spheres
ness: pk thunder, the jab doesn't stops the pk fire, but decreases damage drastically.
lucas: pk thunder, pk fire won't hit ike if it is aimed above ike's waist.
MGaW: neutral b.
snake: jab stops the granades and send them far enough so ike is not hit.

if a projectile is not there, that means it can't be stopped.
Thats all.

 

[comboking]

Well could I use this info for something if I give you credit?

 

[Ulevo]

Very nice guide Empy. * Subscribes *

 

[SSBbo]

He's beating me so bad that I can't even hit him, then a Pokeball suddenly appears at my feet. I throw it, and out comes that big blue bird thing. (Latios is it?) It flies around hitting him, until it knocks him off the stage.

WAT?! you used a very bad example. all pokemon (including latios, that whale thing and lugia) are EXTREMELY easy to dodge. as a matter of fact, every item can be dodged, either by a roll, edge-hang, sidestep, or aerial dodge.

 

[FrznSaber]

WAT?! you used a very bad example. all pokemon (including latios, that whale thing and lugia) are EXTREMELY easy to dodge. as a matter of fact, every item can be dodged, either by a roll, edge-hang, sidestep, or aerial dodge.

True most can be evaded, but the overall point is that items tend to affect the gameplay. Like someone who specializes with chain grabbing has no chance against someone with the chili thing because the fireballs get in the way.

Also, another thing that should probably included (well What I believe anyway) in the training section (once addedat least) would be a way to increase mobility (proper short hop, fast falling and how you practice it).

 

[SSBbo]

someone who specializes with chain grabbing has no chance against someone with the chili thing because the fireballs get in the way.

it's nice to find someone that agrees with me somewhat.
yes the spicy curry and golden hammer are the two things people bring up when i talk about how any weapon can be avoided.
(golden hammer can be avoided with an edge-hang, and then b)

yes i like how they affect gameplay that way, spicy curry especially, because i'm a close-range fighter and it makes it more challenging. it makes the gameplay alot more interesting and fun figuring out ways to cope with items, spammy attacks, and final smashes. i think that items are intended to add more strategy, and brake people away from their specializations.

speaking of specializations, i think they're not good at all, in fact, melee deducted points for that (so i loved point matches).

I've played matches without items before, and that takes away alot of my skill, but i can cope with that as well, and i find in those matches it's a tad more boring.

basically what i'm saying is: it takes much more skill to use and counter items than it does to have a strictly hand-to-hand fight.

 

[SSBbo]

Hey kirk, after a testing sesion in group brawl, i made a list of projectiles that can be stopped with the jabs. Maybe you could put it in the guide if you find it helpful.

Mario: fireball.
luigi: fireball .
peach: every onion except the rotten one.
link: arrows, boomerang.
toon link: arrows, boomerang.
samus: uncharged charge shot, super missiles, normal missiles.
pit: arrows.
rob: uncharged down b.
king dedede: wadle dees and doos
olimar: all of the pikmen, and , even though they arent exactly projectile attacks, olimar's forward smash, and down smash pikmen can be stopped with the kick following the jab.
pikachu: neutral b, (both on air and on the ground)
ivysaur: razor leaf.
lucario: uncharged aura spheres
ness: pk thunder, the jab doesn't stops the pk fire, but decreases damage drastically.
lucas: pk thunder, pk fire won't hit ike if it is aimed above ike's waist.
MGaW: neutral b.
snake: jab stops the granades and send them far enough so ike is not hit.

if a projectile is not there, that means it can't be stopped.
Thats all.

I love that you can block moves with attacks, it helps alot when using captain falcon and ike.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I don't think that guy is agreeing with you cause your defending items and he isn't. no one here is really going to admit to items being good because they don't actually take skill a Wario could just spend the entire time going under the stage from ledge to ledge until a smash ball comes out then own you with it.

Its not that hard to counter items anything thrown at you can be caught so it really doesn't require more skill and sure you can avoid Pokemon but they can still kill you or build up 60% damage with out any skill required plus you're supposed to be fighting a person they wont sit around while a giant whale is pushing you off the stage.

 

[SSBbo]

he does agree that most items can be avoided.
anyone that can go from ledge to ledge without getting hurt at all (even if it's under the stage) deserves to beat you with a final smash.

as to the whale thing, he can easily be avoided by edge-hanging, jumping, and spiking. you can get your opponent with spiking, and coming back of a ledge with the b button.

all of the items that (even rare ones) even can be avoided by anyone skillful even when your oppenent is still fighting you, and that's the point i'm making here.

there's one exception to the rule, but is still possible to dodge with alot of training and skill: sonic's final.
you can edge-hang to dodge, and come back up with z to dodge, repeat the process and you're good.

 

[The Crotch]

Ugh. Look.

Items require skill to use, and they require skill to evade. Alright? That's not a concession. That's not an admission. It's a fact.

It is also a fact that a fight without items is a truer reflection of individual skill-levels than a fight with items.

It takes skill to properly use a gun, for example. It takes more skill to overcome someone with a gun. These two things are not equal, and neither is the distribution of the guns. If you allow guns to spawn, one player will always have an advantage over another, and this advantage will be decided at random - skill will not play a factor in who gets this advantage. Random and tournaments do not mix. Tournaments are made with the elimination of random factors like items and intrusive level hazards in mind. As much fun as the Stanley Cup Playoffs would have been if Detroit had been given laser swords instead of sticks, it wouldn't have made for a very competitive series. Would you call that fair? Would you say, "Well, it takes skill to use a laser sword..." No. You wouldn't. One side would have an obvious advantage for no reason.

Hell, even if something is easy to dodge, it doesn't matter. If a Pokemon forces a player to air/spot dodge, they're a sitting duck for any half-way competent player the second they come out of that dodge. If the gun I just picked up forces my opponent into shielding when they want to be running, I am at an enormous advantage - and for what? For picking up something that spawned two feet from me? It is true that I must use it well or else the advantage will be gone, but that doesn't change the fact that I was handed a large advantage for no God **** reason. It is true that an enemy is capable of evading my attacks, but that doesn't change the fact that he was put at a huge disadvantage for no God **** reason.

And no, that will not be compensated for by the next item that spawns by his feet. If you think for a second that random number generators are fair, you should probably stay off of the Ike and Marth boards, 'cause boy have we got some Fire Emblem horror stories to tell.

...

Can we get back on topic now, plz?

 

[SSBbo]

Can we get back on topic now, plz?

sure after two things.
1. unless you have item rarity set to "none" (it says "none" but it means "one"), everyone has a big chance of getting items, so both players would have items.
2. any competant player can do the following things:
catch a thrown pokeball (even if thrown down)
dodge any item WITH EASE
make sure the opponent doesn't get every weapon on the field.
thus items make it to where the player with more skill wins, and items add fun to the game.

alright, time to talk about ike, i went to the lucario boards and they say lucario is great against ike. i use both of them myself, and i find that a lucario v. ike is fairly even, if not in ike's favor.

lucarios expect to destroy ike, due to his low speed, but every good ike player can dodge exceptionatly well, because we (or at least i do) train for fights against fast characters.
i think that ike is slightly better because of his strength.

I fought my friend that specializes with lucario, put him on a team with a lvl. 9 lucario and beat them horribly. in my opinion, any ike that can roll and time his charged attacks just right, would beat a lucario, or any fast character for that matter

oppinions?

 

[Edds]

items arent really balanced. i know they are suppose to give an advantage but what the heck where they thinking? a sword that triple the size from a simple ftilt? melee sword > brawl.

i would be playing more games with just a few items like i did in melee with friends. but everything has huge ko power so its just pointless

 

[The Crotch]

...

I think he ignored my post.

I'm just gonna shut up now and go back to lurking. That's worked for me so far. Hell, that's worked for me for years.

 

[SSBbo]

even i want to get back on topic.
...ugh...
anyway, sword is rather easy to avoid. stay away, grab something, throw it, problem solved.
what are your oppinions concerning lucario v. ike?

 

[MysticKenji]

Lucario beats Ike, but he's not a hard counter.

 

[SSBbo]

i went to the lucario boards and they say lucario is great against ike. i use both of them myself, and i find that a lucario v. ike is fairly even, if not in ike's favor.

lucarios expect to destroy ike, due to his low speed, but every good ike player can dodge exceptionatly well, because we (or at least i do) train for fights against fast characters.
i think that ike is slightly better because of his strength.

I fought my friend that specializes with lucario, put him on a team with a lvl. 9 lucario and beat them horribly. in my opinion, any ike that can roll and time his charged attacks just right, would beat a lucario, or any fast character for that matter

i'm quoting myself, i know.
also, ike has good range with his attacks (if you don't believe me, hold a with MK), and awesome smashes.
these are the reasons ike is better than lucario. it's a close match, slightly in ike's favor if you're fairly skilled with him. But at first, everyone thinks lucario would own.

 

[MysticKenji]

Power: Ike
Speed: Lucario
Range: Tie
Camping Ability: Lucario
Approach: Ike?
Grab game: Lucario
Survivability: Lucario
Edgeguarding: Ike (Slight)
Priority: Ike?

 

[Kodachrome]

Ugh. Yes, ok, that's great. We all know items take skill to avoid.

However, I'm going to ignore this entire items debate for a couple reasons-1) avoiding items isn't the clean cut sort of affair you make it out to be, and 2) nobody uses items in competitive brawl, so it doesn't effing matter what you think. <_<

Quick question-how in the heck do you guys fight a good Lucas?

 

[MysticKenji]

Depends on how aggressive the Lucas is with his PK Camping.

 

[SSBbo]

never let lucario camp. unless you're using items. and that debate is over. if you feel like you can handle the risk and are very skilled, use them. if you're less skilled, or more about character v. character (tiers dont exist) than player v. player, don't use them.

alright, lucas... i'd say lucas would probably be really good against ike.
don't try your aerials on him (pk freeze, lol). i'd say do an annoying amount of rolls. if he uses pk fire, counter (your only defense).

use your jabs alot, tilts too. lucas has good tilts, but you have to use the fastest attacks you can. be repetitive. when he wises up to it and enters a roll, charge your Usmash. it'll get him after he gets behind you.

like i said before, mainly jabs, tilts, and counter.

 

[Kodachrome]

Well, pk fire is not a problem for me. 50% of the time i shorthop fair him in the face for doing it, because I know the range and when he should use it. Pk freeze will never hit me. I dunno. He's a decent guy, but i can't get a hold on him because he's a roll-happy little **** that only picks FD against my Ike and cries when any platforms are involved. <_< Downsmash works, obviously, but still. It's just upsetting, because on a technical level I AM better than this player...*angry face* Tilts and such won't work 'cuz he's such a little turtle. I grab him for it, but there's nothing you can really follow up with. His aerials from above somehow punch through mine, too. *confused face* Also, when I have to rely on jab to score hits, it's probably even less effective than how I fight him now. Our matches are close, it's just...ugh. Honestly, it's just his lucas that gives me problems, even though he plays every character nearly the same. xD. grr.

 

[SSBbo]

people like that are aggravating, but after a little practice, are easy to beat. i usually balance offensive style and defensive style, but with people like that. defend. it's a terrible idea, i know, but defensive ike's are better than offensive ones because of how slow he is.

playing defense is also good against roll-happy, shield-crazy, platform-hating n00bs because they can't take their own medicine. they get tired of rolls and shields faster than everyone else.

eventually they'll play offense and forget sheilds exist. then you can constantly use counter, downtilts, throws, and jabs.


It'll be over before you know it.

 

[Kodachrome]

Well, I do play defensively. That's why I get so ticked. Lucas' attacks last so long that when I spotdodge and try to punish, I still get hit. <_< That leaves rolling/shielding, and both put me out of grab range-powershielding is tough for me on wifi.

In any case, I'm beating him reliably now. I just wasn't thinking hard enough during our brawls, earlier. xD

*OH! on a side note...Ike can spike people out of their tether recoveries with D-tilt while they're in the act of pulling themselves up to the ledge.* O_o

*EDIT* at least, this happened once while I was facing him. Perhaps it doesn't work against everyone, I have no idea. Add that to the fact that d-tilt is so slow and the pull-up action is so fast...

 

[SSBbo]

Ike can spike like crazy, that helps me in aerial combat if i really get in trouble. but i used to use kirby and I own anyone in the air cuz of the practice.

also, topic starter: dair, eruption, aether (to some extent) help edge-guarding, one of the things that R.O.B. has against ike.

another topic starter: i have no friends around my level at brawl, so i play teams of three lvl 9 cpus (i've said this before, i know) but it's not really a tough match. since i need a challenge, what characters are good against ike?

 

[Kodachrome]

Oh, I know Ike can spike like crazy...I always just thought that tether recoveries were unstoppable until they held on for too long. Turns out I was wrong. xD

Snake, Marth, Lucas, Pit, Dedede, etc. all give Ike a mean matchup. Olimar, too...The only problem with the majority of these is....well, humans will always be better matchups. Ike has many more bad matchups with humans than cpu's,, too...falco, for instance.

 

[SSBbo]

thanks for the help koda, this will really come in handy when i get my wifi this friday (getting a wireless router through the mail).

i'd like to meet you on the field of battle someday. *falcon salute*

 

[shinethezombie]

Power: Ike
Speed: Lucario
Range: Tie
Camping Ability: Lucario
Approach: Ike?
Grab game: Lucario
Survivability: Lucario
Edgeguarding: Tie?
Priority: Ike?

I'm confused about some of this... how does Lucario out survive Ike? doesn't Ike have more weight and knockback and what does lucario have going for him with edgeguarding because it seems to me that Ike has a little more going fore him (e.g.- aether spike, d-tilt, d-air, eruption spike, and f-air)?

*sidenote* don't know if this is old but ike can crouch cancel after the first jab or kick in the AAA combo that lets him use [pretty much all] other moves quicker while the enemy is stunned. (useful for mindgames and keeping opponent off-guard)

 

[The Crotch]

That is indeed well-known, and I'm pretty sure it's in the OP. Now, I don't think shield cancelling is in there, but that's not as important.

 

[shinethezombie]

oh well i thought as much but i did not see it in the OP when i read it...
thank you for telling me that.

 

[FrznSaber]

Hey kirk, after a testing sesion in group brawl, i made a list of projectiles that can be stopped with the jabs. Maybe you could put it in the guide if you find it helpful.

Mario: fireball.
luigi: fireball .
peach: every onion except the rotten one.
link: arrows, boomerang.
toon link: arrows, boomerang.
samus: uncharged charge shot, super missiles, normal missiles.
pit: arrows.
rob: uncharged down b.
king dedede: wadle dees and doos
olimar: all of the pikmen, and , even though they arent exactly projectile attacks, olimar's forward smash, and down smash pikmen can be stopped with the kick following the jab.
pikachu: neutral b, (both on air and on the ground)
ivysaur: razor leaf.
lucario: uncharged aura spheres
ness: pk thunder, the jab doesn't stops the pk fire, but decreases damage drastically.
lucas: pk thunder, pk fire won't hit ike if it is aimed above ike's waist.
MGaW: neutral b.
snake: jab stops the granades and send them far enough so ike is not hit.

if a projectile is not there, that means it can't be stopped.
Thats all.

Well This really does help. Since Ike can block these projectiles with his jabs, then the combat walk should be a good approach on these characters (especially campers)

 

[Kilik 64]

I was planning on entering a tag-team tourney, and I was wondering which characters make good partners for Ike?

 

[SSBbo]

usually, team members can be decided by choosing someone with a completly different strategy.
if you're aggressive, choose someone that is campy.

 

[MysticKenji]

I'm confused about some of this... how does Lucario out survive Ike? doesn't Ike have more weight and knockback and what does lucario have going for him with edgeguarding because it seems to me that Ike has a little more going fore him (e.g.- aether spike, d-tilt, d-air, eruption spike, and f-air)?

Survivability = Recovery + Weight
Ike's Weight > Lucario's Weight
but
Lucario's Recovery > Ike's Recovery most of the time
Lucario also has better horizontal air movement and falls slower.

Edgeguarding (Lucario)
1. Fair
2. Dair
3. Aura Sphere
4. Fsmash
5. ExtremeHog

Edgeguarding (Ike)
1. One of his 4 spikes
2. Fair
3. Edgehog
4. Uair
5. Bair
6. Fsmash

So...I guess Ike does win here.
My bad. >_>

Off-topic: Has anyone done an Eruption spike in an actual match?

 

[SSBbo]

Survivability = Recovery + Weight
Ike's Weight > Lucario's Weight
but
Lucario's Recovery > Ike's Recovery most of the time
Lucario also has better horizontal air movement and falls slower.

Edgeguarding (Lucario)
1. Fair
2. Dair
3. Aura Sphere
4. Fsmash
5. ExtremeHog

Edgeguarding (Ike)
1. One of his 4 spikes
2. Fair
3. Edgehog
4. Uair
5. Bair
6. Fsmash

So...I guess Ike does win here.
My bad. >_>

Off-topic: Has anyone done an Eruption spike in an actual match?

ike side+b is a good recovery, it saves me all the time.

not against a human, only against three vulnerable lvl 9s.

 

[FrznSaber]

Off-topic: Has anyone done an Eruption spike in an actual match?

Only in a friendly match against sqmky, other than that, CPU's when I'm practicing newly learned moves.

 

[Kodachrome]

Fallen, tell us how it was. Was it everything I dreamed it would be? Straight to their death? How strong, in comparison to the other three? *sits back with hands behind head*

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

ike side+b is a good recovery, it saves me all the time.

not against a human, only against three vulnerable lvl 9s.

you need to start playing against people your strategy only works on computers. Ike's side b is a bad recovery.

 

[Guilhe]

you need to start playing against people your strategy only works on computers. Ike's side b is a bad recovery.

I think lvl9 computers don't edge guard at all. At least the ones with no projectiles, they never leave the stage on purpose.