Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

[FrozenHobo]

True that, it's just like every other match up. some are easier than others. but with experience of the matchup, comes knowledge... don't you hate it when people say stuff like that

yes. it makes them sound like an *** hole.

 

[r3d d09]

way to steal my quote frozen

 

[TKD]

I disagree. I think PG is the best punishment because it will lead to one less stock. fsmash is easy to bait and punish the end lag. PG is much harder to bait safely because you have to tornado towards them for them to attempt it, which can end up getting you grabbed if you dont space it perfectly.

I think shielding is better than fsmash if they are too high to pivot grab. They will generally have to run away near the end and that leads to upairs through platforms or a safe desync.

If they dont end up on a platform pay attention to what they do after the tornado, if you run towards them and try to grab 9/10 they will be able to spotdodge it and hit you. If they do this it makes for an easy grab because you can just wait for the spotdodge and grab them in the end lag.

IC can't pivot grab the nado if MK does it well, it doesn't need to be perfectly spaced and it's quite possible to do this consistently. MK should always go to a platform after performing tornado, and they should always start pulling back once IC block it, so they should be too far away to be Uaired. MK should usually back dash if he doesn't end on a platform, it's safer and doesn't get punished like a spot-dodge is. Blocking a MT does give IC a chance to desynch though, that's true. If they don't have a lot of shield left, they can get shield-poked though, I think.

Also, Uair will only hit MK if they're stupid and challenge the move head on.

At the person saying you should solo climber chain-grab until 60% and then start the chain: If it's all you attempt to do, you may end up losing stocks before you do much damage, only because you want to secure a chain-grab by trying to keep MK at very low %.

PS: I can beat bad MK players as IC the easiest. It's 5/5 IC if the MK doesn't know the match-up. Plus the opponent being worse, makes it like 7/3 my favor (or even better)...still, like I said, I haven't seen a MK player play the match-up as they should.

From my experience playing MK players that don't know the match-up, I can say I do this:
- Wait for mach tornadoes to pivot grab them
- Run below them and Uair them when they're in the air, if I performed SH uair and they air-dodge through, I can nair or bair them before IC reach the ground
- Desynched blizzards when they're in front + desynched Uairs when they're above seems safe, although I think they can sneak Mach Tornadoes in and maybe other things.

 

[r3d d09]

IC can't pivot grab the nado if MK does it well, it doesn't need to be perfectly spaced and it's quite possible to do this consistently. MK should always go to a platform after performing tornado, and they should always start pulling back once IC block it, so they should be too far away to be Uaired. MK should usually back dash if he doesn't end on a platform, it's safer and doesn't get punished like a spot-dodge is. Blocking a MT does give IC a chance to desynch though, that's true. If they don't have a lot of shield left, they can get shield-poked though, I think./quote

so true. if the mk knows their AT's, this match up is hard, for me anyways. Meep/lain? input when possible :D

 

[Sky`]

So.
I played IC's at a tournament yesterday.
My Five day IC, got Third. (yay for me amirite?)
I almost Beat Sean, Our best MK in Nor-cal.
However I can't help but feel that the matchup is... Super stupid. Ugh.
I'd really like some insight on what I can be doing differently. The 'lain' wall really helps a lot though.

 

[Teh Future]

The matchup is pretty dumb sometimes...

MK has ATs? lol

edit in a sec...

This is Meeps write-up from about a month and a half ago.

Okaay where do i start.....

Depending on the type of mk you fight it they either camp you to hell, know how to fight you properly, or just suck badly and run into mistakes. If they camp you to hell be prepared to chase them down the entire game and keeping track of the timer and percent/stock.

Camping mk: You want to time your uairs and beat their dairs. If they space you horizontally with dairs. You can do nairs or bairs after their dairs are done. YOu wanna space really well or else they will just do a tornado on you. If they tornado run away and shield or if you react fast enough and predict it pivot grab them. Its pretty much a game of running in and out and wearing the mk out. I start using desynchs to bait them into doing stuff. Ice block chaser and blizzard so they jump. Sometimes you can even combo them into that and an usmash for a kill.

Mks that know the match up: They will focus more on trying to seperate nana and popo and do sneaky stuff. If they know the match up well. Dont bother saving nana if shes way the hell out there. You will have to rely more on mindgames and your solo climber. just remember if they are under 50% u can dthrow cg them to the ledge and when you die you get a garenteed infinite where they cant struggle out. Some things to keep in mind are a lot of times they will dash grab you because you tend to shield a lot. If your fast and predict this always grab them b4 they grab you. They will feel dumb and you get a free infinite. Sometimes if u time the grab well enough u can use armor frames and beat their dash attack.

Mks they dont know what they are doing: These are fun lol. THese are the mks that spam short hop fairs and dtilt ftilts. If they fair you and space it badly remember you can shield and dash grab them for an infinite. And its pretty self explanatory to shield the entire ftilt and grab and grab them if they space dtilt poorly.

Remember to always use your shield the very last moment of everything because you need the full shield to block tornado (tilt your shield up). This match up is all about having really fast reflexes and reacting to all of mks attacks. And always run away from tornado if u see it coming or pivot grab it. Most of the time they will go after u a little and leave.

At low percents you want to dthrow as fast as you can and have nana regrab dthrow/fthrow and start your dthrow/bthrow infinite. Dont start bthrow at low percent as you have to wait a half a second to start it (good players will struggle out). When they are 60% or higher you can do bthrow at the start because they will be high enough percent to not get out.

What ive found lately is to play like wario in this match up. IC have a decent air dodge and they can avoid a lot of attacks just airdodging everywhere. Like mks tend to spam dsmash a crap load when ur next to them. A well placed short hop airdodge behind them or next to them can land you a free grab.

Also learn to buffer bthrow-dthrow cg. Learning this can allow you to start cging them on platforms consistently. Most mks tend to feel safe landing on platforms, but if you land a grab on the platform then they wont feel safe anywhere.

Just remember if you time ur grabs a lot of times they will out beat mks attacks because of armor frames. Its hard for me to tell what situations you can do this, but it is possible.

I dunno what else to add XD, but yea i hope this helps everyone else out there. Just give mk a really hard time when fighting you and ull usually come out on top. I know when i started ic and was learning them it felt like a struggle to land infinites and grabs, but if you play properly and make them feel uncomfortable the entire game then more than likely people choke easier. This not only applys to mk but pretty much anyone u fight ic with.

Just remember while mk is a character that has all the options to win we have the ability to limit options to win. Its pretty much a double edge sword fighting mk because he still has the tools to win, but hes pretty much limited to spamming dair and out playing you. Hope this helps someone because its starting to sound like nonsense and its really late XD.

 

[r3d d09]

congrats on the placement sky, I'm sure you spent a lot of time during the past week and it paid off.

 

[TKD]

Ice Climbers seem like the best character to defeat inexperienced or bad MK players. Hmm...does Lain still think the match-up's even? He's played against MK several times.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hi there, the Peach boards are rediscussing you guys. Pop in and take part in the discussion, any useful and constructive input is greatly appreciated

Out of sheer laziness I cba to post the link to the thread but if struggle to navigate your way to the Peach Boards and fail to notice the thread then you don't stand much chance of mastering those millions of doom grabs you have

Jk thanks in advance

 

[r3d d09]

i've given some helpful thought in the peach boards. someone elses turn now.

 

[momochuu]

Hmm...I think this matchup is a little more important than the others. Do you guys care if we stayed on it for a few days? Next matchup is Wario.

 

[r3d d09]

I think we should stay on MK for a few more days, or until you get 10K posts xD what ever comes first.

 

[EverAlert]

Wario's more important IMO.

I don't mind either way, though.

 

[choknater]

i think we all kinda know the mk matchup since we focus on that one so much anyway

he's the main reason i even use ic's

 

[momochuu]

Blargh. Alright. Wario time.

I'm so behind in my write-ups.

 

[Sky`]

congrats on the placement sky, I'm sure you spent a lot of time during the past week and it paid off.

Thanks, I appreciate it. =] I'll continue to play them. I really like em.

 

[Teh Future]

I faced a decent wario once in friendlies and got two stocked I think. Had to change characters... Not sure what to do against gay platform chit since its impossible to predict where they are going to land. Not sure what to think about the matchup since all the guy did was stay on platforms and run away... All I know is that if they ever are appraoching you pivot grabs are too good and will grab him out of any arieal.

 

[l!nk_aut]

i just can say that pivot grabs are insanely good against wario (of course against all other characters too ^^)

i´m not 100% used to the matchup but when i face a wario i try to bair him and uair him. this works pretty good. and when he´s chasing you with an aerial you can pivotgrab him.

 

[IxxI]

Ah, Wario.

Pivot grab is very good if they are not retreating their aerials; however you should still retreat your BAirs to get some space.

Blizzards are good for spacing, but I don't use them THAT often.

When you land that CG, use DThrow > FThrow. Once you reach close to the edge, use Hylians Patent "Get the **** away from Snake's grenades" chain throw. If you're too close to the edge to perform that, use hobble once in order to CG Wario again to the other side of the stage.

Don't spike against good Warios. They know how to DI and utilize their recovery. Finish off CG's with an USmash.

 

[choknater]

if warios are reckless and like attacking, i end up uairing and fsmashing a lot

but campy warios are f*******cking hard (i just change to sheik so i can chase lmao)

they camp harder than mk baby

dont blow up their bike if it is on the ground so at least u can try to follow their double jumps and won't hop on an invisible bike to propel themselves higher in the air

 

[r3d d09]

fence and Chok did key points for this i think. keep the bike another, everyone thinks to destroy it so they can use tires... don't do that..

 

[choknater]

ahahah wheres PhantomX when u need him. he usually pops in to any thread about wario matchups and talks about it and argues hard for wario

we need that right now

cuz honestly i dont know what to say about wario besides... just try to fight him... in a smart way...

*shrug* i sh blizz, sometimes he run into it. forcing him to go from above, he doesnt really have horizontal range, so he has to weave left and right, so u kinda just have to read his movement.

the main problem is just him being campy and responding to YOUR incorrect approaches/mistakes... which makes the matchup hard since he is more mobile

his spaced sh dairs are tough too since he's attacking your shield or nana, and u cant punish

 

[DMG]

60:40 Wario.

Ban Brinstar.

Don't get hit.

 

[choknater]

lol i'd imagine wario is the one trying not to get hit

hm but i bet even if he spaces aggressively with air dodges in our face and dairs/low claps or w/e

it'd still be hard for ic's

hmmmmm

 

[Hylian]

No, you can't get hit as IC's. If you get hit nana usually dies.

 

[Teh Future]

This isn't smash64 lol. one hit does not = stock like... ever in brawl

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Match-up is 5/5...Wario can't always run away...he has to hit the ICs at least once if he wants to win. Desynched Blizzard + Uair > All of Wario's approaches. Doesn't matter how gay Wario wants to play it - if he doesn't hit ICs he can't win so he still takes risks etc.

 

[meepxzero]

wario vs ic

just pivot grab.... true story ive pivot grabbed a fart b4.

 

[PhantomX]

You can regular grab wafts, too.

Also, I don't really do that arguing anymore. I've gotten tired of trying to convince people of things, b/c they usually just prefer to ignore them. They go about their business, I continue with my shenanigans, that is all.

 

[choknater]

hahah, ic!

im gonna take meeps advice cuz usually he says 1 or 2 sentences and its right

 

[l!nk_aut]

i totally agree with meep. pivotgrabbing wario when he trys to chase is awesome.

 

[meepxzero]

ic have the best pivot grab in the game. I dont even get why we are the only char that can pivot grab mks tornado its like they totally designed us to go even with mk or some crap.

 

[PhantomX]

Everyone can pivot grab MKs tornado o_O

I done it with Wario, seen DEHF do it with Falco, seen Samus do it, done it with Ganon, etc.

 

[Prawn]

ic have the best pivot grab in the game. I dont even get why we are the only char that can pivot grab mks tornado its like they totally designed us to go even with mk or some crap.

now that I've hung out with you I hear every single one of your posts in my head as your voice

 

[meepxzero]

Everyone can pivot grab MKs tornado o_O

I done it with Wario, seen DEHF do it with Falco, seen Samus do it, done it with Ganon, etc.

vids or it didnt happen =(. I couldnt do it with marth T_T.

 

[Steel]

Marth can def do it, his pivot grab is huge lol

 

[stoopdklutz]

lol once, a wario and me were both at high percents, and he tried to fart me, but I grabbed through it and CG'ed FTW

 

[Firestormzero0]

I was fighting a Wario at a Tourney (last year at No Koast) and he almost won, everyone was watching and we were both at like 160% last stock, then he farted and thats when i thought i lost and he though he won cuz there was an explosion on the side of the screen, and as he dropped his controller cuz he thought it was over, i noticed that he only killed nana and i succeeded in spot dodging in time and so i ran up and upsmashed him and killed him. I won. lol

 

[Hylian]

This isn't smash64 lol. one hit does not = stock like... ever in brawl

Uh, yes it does. Nana doesn't DI or airdodge when being hit. Wario hits both climbers with dair, they seperate and its a free Nair X 2 into fsmash/fair/clap anything really just get her off the edge then edgeguard, popo can't do anything about it with his low running speed.


Wario beats climbers pretty soundly. Meep says just pivot grab, but that's situational and smart players catch on fast and will expect it. He also doesn't have much high level wario experience AFAIK. I've played PhantomX a million times, DMG a ton, and Fiction, as well as all the EC warios.

Generally you want to set up walls with nair and uair rather than blizzard. Wario is very good at punishing blizzard with his high aireal momentum so you want to use it sparingly. Wario shouldn't charge his farts to kill, he should use them to separate the climbers easily and kill nana. Wario is so hard for climbers for the sole fact that he is soooo good at killing nana. On the bright side, it's easy to stay ahead in damage against wario so he can't camp you but honestly I'd worry more about keeping your nana alive then them camping you. You can grab wario off his bike if he doesn't pull it up, but if he hits nana its an auto combo for him.

Just pay attention to how he falls and keep the walls of aireals up looking for grab ops. Falling nair combos into grab sometimes, and full hop uair into ff nair is great. If you want to use blizz, don't double blizz just blizz then nair or uair then blizz again.

Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9acXqWXhVE

 

[Jupz]

Just a question Hylian, why Nair instead of Bair? I thought Bair had more range.