Ideal Changes for Samus to become viable

[Serris]

Even if Samus' jab combo not linking is intended, it's just silly. I don't think it's too much to ask for, and it wouldn't make Samus OP'ed. Jabs are not something that can be avoided or incorporated out of gameplay because you need them when your opponent is up close. They're situational; gameplay doesn't revolve around the use of jab (except maybe a few characters like Falco and Falcon). Samus has many other defining features as a character and I don't think a horrible jab should be one of them.

Assuming the frame data for jab 1 and jab 2 remained the same, and jab 1 received increased hit stun to link into jab 2, then jab 1 to d-tilt would be damned close to being a guaranteed link, if not guaranteed at any %. The timing is pretty close as-is. D-tilt has a lot of follow-ups, which means her ability to rack up early damage off of a move as quick as a jab would be insane.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

This is a bit greedy and unlikely, but I want to see:

• MUCH less lag on missiles.
• Missile changed from 4% to 7-8% Super Missiles 10% to 13%
• Super missiles kill at 150%
• All hits on Up smash to actually link, (like seriously give it vacuum properties or something) edit: Or you change it completely maybe, like SD remix did.
• Little langing lag on ALL aeriels sorta like brawl did actually right.
• F smash should have a consistent hit box like Mario's.
• Melee down smash angles and power.
• Z air damage increased to 4% tipper does 6%, and less land lag.
• Grab start up and end lag decreased. Range increased (buffed like done with Link.)
• Screw attack links better, give little bit more knockback too.
• Charge shot, can B-reversed and less laggy.
• Morphball bombs explode on contact immediately!
• F-tilt sour spot and sweet spot removed. Consistant KB throughout Samus' leg. BKB increase and KBG increase.
• End lag on up tilt reduced. And had more stun and no longer meteor, this is so it can lead to combos better.
• Down tilt increased KBG and less end lag.
• Forward air links better.
• Increase dash speed and air speed.
• Up throw kills 130%

And most importantly personally, GIVE SAMUS A CRAWL! THE MORPHBALL!!!
I mean ZSS, Wario and Luig can crawl??? But not the person that crawling is necessary to her games? Still it will be a very interesting addition to her play.

 

[Vyrnx]

Assuming the frame data for jab 1 and jab 2 remained the same, and jab 1 received increased hit stun to link into jab 2, then jab 1 to d-tilt would be damned close to being a guaranteed link, if not guaranteed at any %. The timing is pretty close as-is. D-tilt has a lot of follow-ups, which means her ability to rack up early damage off of a move as quick as a jab would be insane.

They get around this with other characters. If they decreased the lag on jab 1, for instance, then when you tried to use a dtilt after jab 1 it would just use jab 2 instead. This happens to most characters I think. There shouldn't be characters who can't link jabs.

 

[MOM Samus]

This is a bit greedy and unlikely, but I want to see:

• MUCH less lag on missiles.
• Missile changed from 4% to 7-8% Super Missiles 10% to 13%
• Super missiles kill at 150%
• All hits on Up smash to actually link, (like seriously give it vacuum properties or something)
• Little langing lag on ALL aeriels sorta like brawl did actually right.
• F smash should have a consistent hit box like Mario's.
• Melee down smash angles and power.
• Z air damage increased to 4% tipper does 6%, and less land lag.
• Grab start up and end lag decreased. Range increased (buffed like done with Link.)
• Screw attack links better, give little bit more knockback too.
• Charge shot, can B-reversed and less laggy.
• Morphball bombs explode on contact immediately!
• F-tilt sour spot and sweet spot removed. Consistant KB throughout Samus' leg. BKB increase and KBG increase.
• End lag on up tilt reduced. And had more stun and no longer meteor, this is so it can lead to combos better.
• Down tilt increased KBG and less end lag.
• Forward air links better.
• Increase dash speed and air speed.
• Up throw kills 130%

And most importantly personally, GIVE SAMUS A CRAWL! THE MORPHBALL!!!
I mean ZSS, Wario and Luig can crawl??? But not the person that crawling is necessary to her games? Still it will be a very interesting addition to her play.

This is complete just. I see no greed here.

They nerfed both her D-smash and D-tilt...eww. And B-reversing the Charge Shot, we might as well be able to do it with Missiles, which indirectly give us wavedashing.

And giving Samus Morph Ball "crawl" mobility would make MUs against Fox and Falco a little less hell. Up throw kill sounds believable because it's becoming more of a thing now.

Side smash should always be 'tipper' because you're charging a flaming Arm Cannon. As it travels forward, it should always (in theory) hit you with the tip. Things always hit with the tip. Mario's fire hand is different, though.

 

[Vyrnx]

Also just make Samus's fsmash way less whiffy... I have used fsmash tilted up on opponents approaching through the air and the explosion is literally right on top of their body and it does nothing. It whiffs on short characters, whiffs if the opponents too close, etc.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Also just make Samus's fsmash way less whiffy... I have used fsmash tilted up on opponents approaching through the air and the explosion is literally right on top of their body and it does nothing. It whiffs on short characters, whiffs if the opponents too close, etc.

Yeah that so weird. They get Mario's f-smash just fine, but screw up on Samus'?! When tbh they should work quite similarly. So what's with the whiffiness and the wonkiness!

 

[RustyOwl]

There are a number of moves in the game that mysteriously pass through opponents all the time without hitting them. One of the most frustrating ones for me is Samus' Down Air. I'd like that changed. If I'm visibly making contact with someone, they should be getting hit. It's much harder to spike with Samus than it should be.

Oppositely, there are some moves that you can completely miss with and still somehow they hit. As one example, Roy's Jab has a damaging space that happens inexplicably behind his body, so even if he's facing the wrong direction and swings his sword in a way that clearly is not coming out behind him, you still get hit by that random damaging space behind him anyway.

I love using Roy and Samus both, but things like that are ridiculous and need to be tweaked.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Another thing I hope they fix is the blast radius on the bombs and missiles actually do damage or knockback. Especially with missiles! So many times when the missiles, blow up on their own next to an opponent, and of does NOTHING! Link's bombs and I think Villager's rockets have a blast radius hit box. So why can't Samus missiles have one, it has seemed like an odd decision to me.

The bombs blast radius are misleading too, and on top of that they don't explode on contact.

 

[Xygonn]

There are a number of moves in the game that mysteriously pass through opponents all the time without hitting them. One of the most frustrating ones for me is Samus' Down Air. I'd like that changed. If I'm visibly making contact with someone, they should be getting hit. It's much harder to spike with Samus than it should be.

Oppositely, there are some moves that you can completely miss with and still somehow they hit. As one example, Roy's Jab has a damaging space that happens inexplicably behind his body, so even if he's facing the wrong direction and swings his sword in a way that clearly is not coming out behind him, you still get hit by that random damaging space behind him anyway.

I love using Roy and Samus both, but things like that are ridiculous and need to be tweaked.

Dair is a bit slow, but in terms of reliability...

Dair has a small whiff that overlaps with the animation, but it is actually a very large, wide and reliable spike hitbox as smash 4 dairs go. 3 frame window that has no concurrent sour spot, very little overlap hitbox-wise with the early sour spot hit. There are plenty of characters that will love a dair as reliable as ours.

 

[JAZZ_]

Dair is a bit slow, but in terms of reliability...

Dair has a small whiff that overlaps with the animation, but it is actually a very large, wide and reliable spike hitbox as smash 4 dairs go. 3 frame window that has no concurrent sour spot, very little overlap hitbox-wise with the early sour spot hit. There are plenty of characters that will love a dair as reliable as ours.

though if it were quicker we could do a tether trump with it.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

though if it were quicker we could do a tether trump with it.

That would be a God send!

 

[Tonetta]

Dair turns our entire character into a hitbox I don't think we need a buff there.

 

[RustyOwl]

Dair turns our entire character into a hitbox I don't think we need a buff there.

That means it has next to no reach, so you are putting yourself into harm's way much more than you sensibly should be with a large arm cannon swinging beneath you (one that would, in a more logical world, entirely be making contact). This lack of reach also gives the opponent more time to see what you're doing and react to it, so those factors combined make it very situational, hindering it's usefulness. Kinda like Wii Fit's Nair. Plus it's slow, so you're susceptible to hard punishes.

 

[zeldasmash]

This is in my opinion:

1. Make her Homing Missile ACTUALLY home in on characters: This move is useless so far as it never works like you want it too. When it does home in on the character, they would have already dodged it. The Homing Missile should act as a disruptor to approaches, and it doesn't do that at all.

2. Increase the knockback of the sourspot in her dair: This move is very strong as a meteor, but the sourspot is a bit too weak, weaker than other sourspots like Ganon's and Falcon's sourspot. This move can be a very solid combo ender if the sourspot had a bit more knockback too it.

3. Usmash: This move needs to get the treatment Link's Usmash got: MAKE IT LINK. Samus' Usmash has been worthless in every iteration of Smash, and this is sadly no exception. I don't know why they can't get this thing to work right. Just increase the hitboxes on the blasts, is that so difficult?

4. Jab 1 needs IASA frames: In order to make this thing not suck, give it IASA frames. If the whole point of this move was to use it and switch over to another move, add IASA frames or add more IASA frames if it already has some to make it at the very least a safe jab. Samus contains probably the worst jab in the game and it needs buffing.

5. Increase the knockback of dtilt: Was always a kill move in the previous Smash games, not anymore, or at least not as good compared to the other ones. Even Brawl Samus had a stronger dtilt.

6. Increase the knockback of Dsmash: This thing can be one of Samus' best moves, but it's so freaking weak, it's one of her worst. In Melee and even in Brawl, Dsmash was one of her best moves. Why is this move so bad now? Increase the knockback of this thing guys.

7. Decrease start-up and end-lag on Grab. Seriously, Samus has a pretty solid dthrow that leads into combos. But try and make the grab far easier to, you know, GRAB with.

8. Hitbox increase on Fsmash explosion.

 

[Xygonn]

This is in my opinion:

1. Make her Homing Missile ACTUALLY home in on characters: This move is useless so far as it never works like you want it too. When it does home in on the character, they would have already dodged it. The Homing Missile should act as a disruptor to approaches, and it doesn't do that at all.

This would be nice.

2. Increase the knockback of the sourspot in her dair: This move is very strong as a meteor, but the sourspot is a bit too weak, weaker than other sourspots like Ganon's and Falcon's sourspot. This move can be a very solid combo ender if the sourspot had a bit more knockback too it.

People need to quit their whining on dair in this thread. We have some of the strongest knockback on our dair sour spots. Stronger than Falcon (though the damage is lower) and stronger than Mario's fair. Maybe only Yoshi's fair has better sour spots. Our dair isn't preventing us from being viable.

3. Usmash: This move needs to get the treatment Link's Usmash got: MAKE IT LINK. Samus' Usmash has been worthless in every iteration of Smash, and this is sadly no exception. I don't know why they can't get this thing to work right. Just increase the hitboxes on the blasts, is that so difficult?

They actually did make the blast hitboxes bigger. I agree they could do even more to fix this move, especially be making it scoop like megaman, mewtwo, roy, etc.

4. Jab 1 needs IASA frames: In order to make this thing not suck, give it IASA frames. If the whole point of this move was to use it and switch over to another move, add IASA frames or add more IASA frames if it already has some to make it at the very least a safe jab. Samus contains probably the worst jab in the game and it needs buffing.

Jab 1 should link into Jab 2 faster. The actual IASA frames for other moves are reasonable and good. We can combo uair-> jab1-> fsmash. It's not easy, but it is possible.

5. Increase the knockback of dtilt: Was always a kill move in the previous Smash games, not anymore, or at least not as good compared to the other ones. Even Brawl Samus had a stronger dtilt.

I won't disagree that this would be really really nice. I'd be satisfied if either dtilt got buffed to be a kill move (without massive rage), or if dsmash was buffed into a kill move.

6. Increase the knockback of Dsmash: This thing can be one of Samus' best moves, but it's so freaking weak, it's one of her worst. In Melee and even in Brawl, Dsmash was one of her best moves. Why is this move so bad now? Increase the knockback of this thing guys.

See above.

7. Decrease start-up and end-lag on Grab. Seriously, Samus has a pretty solid dthrow that leads into combos. But try and make the grab far easier to, you know, GRAB with.

It's even worse after Link got a huge buff to his grab range and a dozen frames taken off of his cooldown. We got a four frames on standing and pivot only, but we could use even more. Captain falcon can literally falcon punch us if he makes us whiff with a SH.

8. Hitbox increase on Fsmash explosion.

Just in general, fsmash needs bigger hitboxes so we don't whiff so much.

 

[MOM Samus]

Samus has the laggiest grab in the game, I swear.

 

[MOM Samus]

This is in my opinion:
7. Decrease start-up and end-lag on Grab. Seriously, Samus has a pretty solid dthrow that leads into combos. But try and make the grab far easier to, you know, GRAB with.

In a montage (https://youtu.be/6cKXbk7aWD8?t=319) of me reking a friend (low quality), I highlighted a bit where he was able to cheap shot me because of Samus's grab lag.

And because of startup, it sometimes isn't even safe when people aerial attack your shield. Go for shield grab, they've already rolled behind you and began charging a Smash Attack.

 

[MegaRiff]

...it sometimes isn't even safe when people aerial attack your shield. Go for shield grab, they've already rolled behind you and began charging a Smash Attack.

I know the feeling. This should help.

http://smashboards.com/threads/shield-grab-vs-aerials.407971/

 

[SRUFUS3D]

I kinda miss how Samus' down smash launched opponents like in melee and brawl, so fun and hard to DI, but now it doesn't feel special any more.

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus has the laggiest grab in the game, I swear.

I'm pretty sure it actually is the laggiest. Even Pacman's is like 6 frames shorter, which is significant. His pivot grab is 18 frames shorter. Olimar's pivot grab I believe has better range than ours and is 50 frames shorter. 50 frames is huge, like the whole duration of Marth/Lucina's fsmash.

I never realized until recently how horrible Samus's grab is even for a tether. I played as Link the other day and his grab feels amazing.

 

[JAZZ_]

what kind of patches do you think we'll get tomorrow?

 

[Vyrnx]

what kind of patches do you think we'll get tomorrow

I've heard that there won't be character rebalancing in the patch since there are no new characters being introduced. But I could very well be wrong.

 

[JAZZ_]

I've heard that there won't be character rebalancing in the patch since there are no new characters being introduced. But I could very well be wrong.

we dont know what else this update will have

 

[Xygonn]

I bet they patch out Pac-man clipping.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

I just want some real Samus treatment for once!

 

[MOM Samus]

I'm pretty sure it actually is the laggiest. Even Pacman's is like 6 frames shorter, which is significant. His pivot grab is 18 frames shorter. Olimar's pivot grab I believe has better range than ours and is 50 frames shorter. 50 frames is huge, like the whole duration of Marth/Lucina's fsmash.

I never realized until recently how horrible Samus's grab is even for a tether. I played as Link the other day and his grab feels amazing.

Samus's (should I say Samus' or Samus's? Samus's would be the correct way to go, but if you say Samus', it implies something else.) tether is one of the best tethers on startup, but the endlag is disgusting. I gag every time I miss. It is excellent if use as a pivot grab if characters are falling to the ground toward you. If you're falling to you and coming in hard right, run right and pivot grab. Completely save on most occasions. Grab > D-throw; put them back in the air, and Samus does very well when opponents are in the air.

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus's (should I say Samus' or Samus's? Samus's would be the correct way to go, but if you say Samus', it implies something else.) tether is one of the best tethers on startup, but the endlag is disgusting. I gag every time I miss. It is excellent if use as a pivot grab if characters are falling to the ground toward you. If you're falling to you and coming in hard right, run right and pivot grab. Completely save on most occasions. Grab > D-throw; put them back in the air, and Samus does very well when opponents are in the air.

Yeah Samus has several moves that are good for catching landings and her grab is definitely one of them. Other than that though... Ugh

 

[MOM Samus]

Al

Yeah Samus has several moves that are good for catching landings and her grab is definitely one of them. Other than that though... Ugh

l characters have landing lag, so any attack (with good timing) will be able to it. It's just the ones that will hit you regardless if you airdodge to the ground that are note-worthy. Do that against a Charge Shot--you're dead. Missile does this pretty good as well, but not as effective as the CS. I'm not really saying anything new by saying to catch someone's landing with a CS,just reiterating (and I'm sure this one was fresh on your mind).

I heard the patch came early. Anyone notice anything about Samus? I read about some characters getting balance, such as Fox's jab lock nerf.

Can only upload to YT replays under or at 3 minutes? You were THIS close, Nintendo. Sad thing is that they can easily do it, too.

 

[Vyrnx]

Apparently the Fox jab lock combo is still possible, just only like 3 times in a row before the grab at the end. Not much of a nerf, as opposed to Link's jab infinite that got completely removed. Robin got a huge buff. We will have to wait for more info though

 

[MOM Samus]

I live and breathe Samus. I need see a few more buffs. Her pre-buff U-smash was the most useless U-smash in the game. And that's mostly because of the lack of connections. Let's also not forgot how powerful everyone else's U-smash was compared to hers. It's called Cover Fire. I want to see her cover aerial approaches with it!

 

[JAZZ_]

Samus feels different, someone see if they patched her, her zair feltshorter, her grab felt less laggy. Idk about usmash, Nair felt faster bair felt nerfed almost. I only had a minute to check it before bed so someone please check. Also bigger explosion animation for fsmash

 

[KayJay]

All placeboo. Samus's Framedata files were untouched.
The only thing we can find are different IASA Frames and universal changes.

 

[JAZZ_]

"This is how it starts.. The fever... The rage...that turns good men...cruel.." Rage slowly building

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Damn it why!!??
This isn't fair!!!

 

[LIQUID12A]

After today I'm losing hope in Samus getting buffed or Metroid content in this game in general.

Let's give some of the cast a damage boost! But not you, Samus, screw off.

 

[Boney]

All placeboo. Samus's Framedata files were untouched.
The only thing we can find are different IASA Frames and universal changes.

Actually, posted on the other thread, but projectiles aren't included in Dantarion's data dump. People were speculating bombs exploded faster on contact and that homing missiles travelled faster, I think both are the same but I wouldn't mind if someone could test it out

 

[KayJay]

Dirty Bomb has the exact same timing. Also I see no difference from the donating time when the opponent stays on the bomb compared to pre-patch. Same with the missiles.
Placeboo.

 

[MOM Samus]

It's a shame we do as good as we do with Samus in the first place. No one should be able to put up a fight with such a screwed over character.

 

[KenMeister]

So no changes at all this patch? Not even anything relevant?

 

[JAZZ_]

So no changes at all this patch? Not even anything relevant?

Nope we got screwed over