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Ideas to turn the underdogs of the game into competitive fighters?

Rouenne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
85
I made a similar post a little back ago. Well the official tier list is out and I couldn't be more ticked to see Link and Ganon as the worst of the worst. Seriously, especially Link (I knew he sucked in these games), now I am not ranting (Well at least trying not to) but I think Link could be a pretty strong fighter while sticking to his Zelda games weapons and abilities, and the same goes for Ganondorf. So Here is an idea of how Link could be improved, also why don't we help the other bottom and low characters to become stronger? Take this as a game.

First the list of Low tier characters:

Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Cptn. Falcon

And my idea to improve Link:

-Regular combo: 5 sword slashes like you can do in Twilight Princess.

-Forward Smash: Instead of two strong slashes with some knockback, three. The first hitstuns
the opponent in place guaranteeing the other two to hit.

-Forwar Aerial: Helm Splitter, the spin slash that he does in Twilight Princess. More power and knockback and coverage than the kick and slash. Also the helm splitter moves Link slightly forward in air.

-Up Aerial: Make a small shockwave around the thrust for coverage and give it more power.

-Down Aerial: Increase greatily the falling speed, with a small shockwave that makes the opponent flinch if they are near but not hit, so he can have more time to recover.

-Hero Bow: Not charging, like in Zelda games, you shot fully powered arrows immediately (Distance and damage), also when he shots the first he keeps the bow in the hand for "rapid" rapid fire until you try another attack, then he holds the sword again. Also he can move around while shooting arrows.

-Gale Boomerang: Traps opponent and carries them away hurting them until it returns, at that moment the opponent is released. The closer the opponent is the more damage they sustain.

-Spin Attack: It can be charged in the same way as Lucario's aura Speher or Donkey's Punch. And to be executed it works iin the same way as the other two. When mid charged it unleashes a wave of energy close around him of yellow color, if fully a blue one covering a larger area. Also the attack is performed immediately no lag before it. The damage and knockback is greatily increased as well. If used in Midair it unleashes the yellow wave and has better horizontal movement

-Bombs: The more they are on Link's hand the stronger they explode when thrown.

Other changes:

-Much faster (As fast as Marth)
-Higher Jumping
-Clawshot miss has much less recovery lag
-Can crawl
-Spin Slash can grant some free horizontal midair movement.
-Never lowers shield, not when standing, iddling or running, only when taunting and attacking, making him very well defended against projectiles.
-Spin Slash charged and Midair deflects projectiles with the energy wave and has good priority.

Also in Twilight Princes he could counter (There was a skill to roll around your opponent and slash him in the back) but all the specials slots are taken so meh.

Well this is my idea, what about you guys?
 

Rouenne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
85
You think so? Then is great because NOW HE CAN TAKE REVENGE FOR ALL THE HUMILLIATION IN ALL SMASH GAMES >=D

Now talking seriously, yeah, maybe I overdid it. So what to take out? :confused:
 

HeroMystic

Legacy of the Mario
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I wouldn't mind a game where Link was super-broken just once. :p

-Spin Slash can grant some free horizontal midair movement
This should have been there from the very beginning though. It was in Melee.

This topic has some potential. I'll come back to it later to actually contribute.
 

okiyama

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
595
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
I don't get this thread. Are we just suggesting ways that Sakurai could have made the game more balanced?

If you're mad about balance just put it in the complaints thread.
 

Rouenne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
85
Well is more like a game no complains, what is done is done, just a the way I would like Link to be and ask others how do they think the weak characters can be stronger so they can compete with high tiers.
 

SmashBrother2008

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,227
Um... Unused guns?! Why not Falcon's pistol?!!!!!!!!!! I can only picture how they decided to make Falcon in SSB 64; *screen fades to 1998*

Sakurai: Hey Iwata, the roster is finalized but Captain Falcon has never appeared in-game. What should we make him do?

Iwata: Well he pilots a super fast machine...

Sakurai: I know! We'll do something completely irrelevant to the F-Zero series and give him super-firey powers! A-Haha!

Iwata: Well what about that pistol that he h... -Sakurai cuts in "No! Captain Falcon is MY character now. Understand! MINE!"

Iwata: *Cries*
 

MajinNecro69

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
657
Lucas/Ness: Nothing really, honestly I didn't expect them to make them low tier...maybe make PK Thunder less gimpable?

Mario: Give him back the Tornado...FLUDD is awful.

PKMN Trainer: Make Charizard have an extra jump...let Squirtle's withdraw not go in only one direction...

Samus: Increase power of Charge Shot, increase jump

Yoshi: Allow breaking out of Egg Roll in mid-air, actually give Yoshi a bit of jump when using Egg Toss

Jigglypuff: Give Rest a hitbox a la Melee, it seems so small this game

Ganon: Have him not become useless after he runs himself off the edge with Murder Choke, give back his jump out of a midair Murder Kick, increase the hitbox slightly of the Ganon Deck (f-air) and THE STOMP.

Link: Make him a bit faster, give more beef to the bombs, give Link arrows like Pit, who doesn't have to charge them...give Link a little DI when using Up-B in mid-air...

Capt. Falcon: Make the PAUNCH a bit faster, give back his speed, add the jump back to the Falcon Kick, increase the hitbox for the knee and stomp...
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
they have to do one thing to make link higher on the list, fix his recovery T_T

if they do that then he'd be perfectly fine
 

missingnomaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
1,620
Location
Glitch City
IMO Mario's FLUUD would be epic win if it did damage.

Yoshi: Melee Fair, Fsmash, and Eggs, Dsmash is more powerful, shield is the same speed as other shields.
 

Zodiac

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
3,557
Dude, link would be really, really broken if he had moves like that.
Yes he would, but in every game they choose make link suck, why? I dont know, but they continuesly say, "Lets make link suck" and then look at meta knight and say "Lets make this ****er REALLY broken"
 

DKKountry

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2008
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926
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Corneria... Fourth Planet of the Lylat System
Um... Unused guns?! Why not Falcon's pistol?!!!!!!!!!!
Theory 1: It's not actually a pistol, it's a device the dampens the effects of Captain Falcon's space-time rippage so that he is able to be around other people without them either dying or spontaneously getting a severe nosebleed.

Theory 2: Yes, it's a gun, but it's hiding from his Falcon Pawnch, and that's why it never comes out.




I don't really see any other possibilities here.
 

DKKountry

Smash Ace
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Corneria... Fourth Planet of the Lylat System
Yeah, to be honest, I've been leaning toward theory 2 for quite a while, but holding onto the space-time-rippage-dampening-waffle-device theory because my father never said he loved me.

Yeah. Don't judge. It's not nearly as simple as it sounds.
 

Rouenne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
85
Yes he would, but in every game they choose make link suck, why? I dont know, but they continuesly say, "Lets make link suck" and then look at meta knight and say "Lets make this ****er REALLY broken"
Amen Bro.

Now let's see:

Mario:

-Forward Smash: The Fireball Explosion is bigger and with a similar knockback to Ike's F Smash. (Yeah, I am serious)

-Down Aerial (Mario Tornado): Traps opponent quickly, has a wind wave that extends range, the horizontal movement is much bigger and the knockback is also better.

-Fireball: Faster in speed and firing, instead of following platforms thay take impulse as they fall, also if you hold the Special button it shots a bigger one with more Knockback and damage (A la Mega Buster from Megaman) and travel as long as they don't disappear from the stage

-Super Jump Punch: Bigger jump and horizontal movement, if fully connected the knockback is much better (Upwards)

-Cape: Same effects but with a small shockwave that raises coverage and causes better knockback to make opponents back off.

-FLUDD: Better distance, DOES damage without much knockback (downwards), but does a good amount of damage especially if fully charged.

Other changes:

-Much Higher Jumping
-Better Recovery (He is Mario freaking bros, his jumps and air moves should be top notch!)
-Heavier (He has overweight)
-If Super Punch Jump doesn't hit anything its horizontal range is increased for better recovery.
-Mario tornado can be continued and moved more freely on ground.
-Fireballs have better knockback and faster firing.

-Mario Finale: Double the damage and the two giant fireballs extend faster.

And Ganondorf should drop the clone moves from Cpt. Falcon and have a moveset based on his Zelda appearances, hell he had a Sword, magical blasts, a trident, fire bats and black magic. Everything to make another awesome character.
 

Shy Guy 86

Smash Ace
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
848
Make Ganon pull the sword out of his *** and kick some MK *** with it! **** YEAH! :p
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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Poor Sonic...alright here goes:

Make it so his spines actually go through the things they should. Sonic can tear through robots. I can understand his spindashes get stopped by swords, fire and missiles because balance is needed...but getting stopped by Ice blocks? Eggs? Vegetables?!?

Change his falling animation from his Up + B to normal animation. They did it for Snake. Why couldn't they do it for Sonic?

Give him some more priority. Seriously

Give him an original move set that isn't a mixture of other characters Give him slightly bigger hitboxes

Make his attacks faster. For the fastest thing alive, his attacks sure are slow...
 

mariofanpm12

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
997
Location
Louisiana
you didnt really expound on lin's recovery as much as i expected.

but having a moveset like that would make link fairly BROKEN.
 

rm88

Smash Ace
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Link being broken... would be nice after 3 games >_<
 

LordoftheMorning

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
2,153
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
And my idea to improve Link:

-Regular combo: 5 sword slashes like you can do in Twilight Princess.

-Forward Smash: Instead of two strong slashes with some knockback, three. The first hitstuns
the opponent in place guaranteeing the other two to hit.

-Forwar Aerial: Helm Splitter, the spin slash that he does in Twilight Princess. More power and knockback and coverage than the kick and slash. Also the helm splitter moves Link slightly forward in air.

-Up Aerial: Make a small shockwave around the thrust for coverage and give it more power.

-Down Aerial: Increase greatily the falling speed, with a small shockwave that makes the opponent flinch if they are near but not hit, so he can have more time to recover.

-Hero Bow: Not charging, like in Zelda games, you shot fully powered arrows immediately (Distance and damage), also when he shots the first he keeps the bow in the hand for "rapid" rapid fire until you try another attack, then he holds the sword again. Also he can move around while shooting arrows.

-Gale Boomerang: Traps opponent and carries them away hurting them until it returns, at that moment the opponent is released. The closer the opponent is the more damage they sustain.

-Spin Attack: It can be charged in the same way as Lucario's aura Speher or Donkey's Punch. And to be executed it works iin the same way as the other two. When mid charged it unleashes a wave of energy close around him of yellow color, if fully a blue one covering a larger area. Also the attack is performed immediately no lag before it. The damage and knockback is greatily increased as well. If used in Midair it unleashes the yellow wave and has better horizontal movement

-Bombs: The more they are on Link's hand the stronger they explode when thrown.

Other changes:

-Much faster (As fast as Marth)
-Higher Jumping
-Clawshot miss has much less recovery lag
-Can crawl
-Spin Slash can grant some free horizontal midair movement.
-Never lowers shield, not when standing, iddling or running, only when taunting and attacking, making him very well defended against projectiles.
-Spin Slash charged and Midair deflects projectiles with the energy wave and has good priority.

Also in Twilight Princes he could counter (There was a skill to roll around your opponent and slash him in the back) but all the specials slots are taken so meh.

Well this is my idea, what about you guys?

I'd hit that!

Make Ganon pull the sword out of his *** and kick some MK *** with it! **** YEAH! :p
AMEN BROTHA!! Ganon for top tier!
 

PKSkyler

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,566
Location
San Diego
I want Ness to have a somehow less gimpable recovery. Eaten up thunder sucks T_T. How about if it hits someone/gets attacked you can use it again?

Change his falling animation from his Up + B to normal animation. They did it for Snake. Why couldn't they do it for Sonic?

Give him some more priority. Seriously
wait, I though he did have normal animation after his Up-B...

yeah, he needs more priority.
 

KoJ

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
317
Ness: Reduce bat speed. Make his PK fire able to do easier turns, or make it have Lucas's go-through property. Make PK flash's initial explosion bigger. Make it harder to DI out of PK fiyah.

Lucas: Give his up-B qualities to Ness and give him a new one. Make his U-smash less laggy. Make his smashes in general less laggy, or more powerful. Make his moves FILLED WITH POWUH!

Both: Take away the god****ed laggy release.
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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wait, I though he did have normal animation after his Up-B...

yeah, he needs more priority.
If you use Sonic's Up + B (aka the Spring) and watch him fall, instead of his ordinary animation of falling, his has a rather creepy faced falling animation where he rolls in a circle in the air whilst falling down. This stops him from using any of his B moves and whilst I suppose that using Homing attack and/or Side B after Up + B could possibly make his recovery broken, I don't get why Snake is still allowed to use his B moves (probably because they're technically don't move him anywhere...or Sakurai hates Sonic and loves Snake)
 

ElectroBlooper

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
52
Location
Seattle area
10 Steps to Making Ganondorf Amazing

*1: Let Gdorf float, kind of like Peach. I'd explain why this would be so sick, but I don't think it's really necessary.

*2: Gdorf should use his sword, but I don't think anyone wants him to be just another heavy sword user (Ike is enough). Here's an idea that lets him use his sword in a very Ganon-like and useful way: Down B would make him take his sword out and plant it in the ground. Perhaps it would damage other characters if they touched it, but I'm not sure about that idea. When Ganon hit's down B again, the sword would come spinning back to him, hitting anyone in its path. Also, if Ganon doesn't continue to fall when in the air while this happened, this could make for a very sweet anti-edge-guarding move.

3: Give Gdorf his lightning ball attack from the games. I think this one is pretty widely agreed upon already. This gives him a projectile of his own to fight back against campers with, and is probably Ganon's most signature move from the Zelda games, anyways.

4: Give him way better running speed.

5: Take a lot of the unnecessary lag off of his moves, especially his fair. He should be slow, but his lag is really pulling him down right now.

6: While Murder Choke is already one his best moves, it would probably be fair to increase its range a bit. Also, I'm just brainstorming here, but perhaps he should still be able to use attacks after using MC in the air, kind of like Luigi and his >B. It would definitely improve his mediocre recovery greatly.

7: Replace his utilt. I don't know if the programmers just felt like having a laugh, or if they were actually misguided enough to think this move could really be useful, but it needs to go.

8: There is no reason his jumps should be as miserable as they currently are. They don't need to be great, but they do need to be improved significantly.

9: Change his Final Smash. Not really an improvement on Gdorf as a competitive fighter, but it would be beyond awesome if Gdorf could become a playable Ganon for a short period of time, kind of like Giga Bowser (but smaller - maybe twice Bowser's size or something), but with different moves and significantly different design from Gdorf. This would be especially cool if Ganon wasn't invincible and the transformation lasted fairly long. Obviously Ganon should still be quite overpowered, and it should take a very large skill gap for someone to beat him, but kicking *** as Ganon for part of the game would be amazing. If his Final Smash became too good, it's not a big deal anyway, considering the current disparity between the usefulness of the final smashes.

10: Replace all the CF clone moves, except Murder Choke which is now cool, useful, and different enough. This isn't so much of a gameplay improvement, but Gdorf should not have a bunch of buffed up, slowed down, CF moves. I would hesitate to call him a clone as he currently is, but the last traces of his clonehood should be erased. I don't know what his Up B should become (it would have to be at least as good a recovery move), and they could probably get away with just modifying the current one. I haven't taken the time to actually try and come up with something better, though.

*These ingenious ideas are unfortunately not mine. I saw them on the Ganon board ages ago but do not remember who's they were.
 

Rouenne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
85
*1: Let Gdorf float, kind of like Peach. I'd explain why this would be so sick, but I don't think it's really necessary.
No it would be great, after all in Zelda games he can fly around.

*2: Gdorf should use his sword, but I don't think anyone wants him to be just another heavy sword user (Ike is enough). Here's an idea that lets him use his sword in a very Ganon-like and useful way: Down B would make him take his sword out and plant it in the ground. Perhaps it would damage other characters if they touched it, but I'm not sure about that idea. When Ganon hit's down B again, the sword would come spinning back to him, hitting anyone in its path. Also, if Ganon doesn't continue to fall when in the air while this happened, this could make for a very sweet anti-edge-guarding move.
Also maybe mix punches with the sword. You know, he unsheathes it only when attacking.

3: Give Gdorf his lightning ball attack from the games. I think this one is pretty widely agreed upon already. This gives him a projectile of his own to fight back against campers with, and is probably Ganon's most signature move from the Zelda games, anyways.
4: Give him way better running speed.
He could glide like Meta Knight.

5: Take a lot of the unnecessary lag off of his moves, especially his fair. He should be slow, but his lag is really pulling him down right now.
Pretty mch.

6: While Murder Choke is already one his best moves, it would probably be fair to increase its range a bit. Also, I'm just brainstorming here, but perhaps he should still be able to use attacks after using MC in the air, kind of like Luigi and his >B. It would definitely improve his mediocre recovery greatly.
Mix the flying with murder choke and that's fixed.

7: Replace his utilt. I don't know if the programmers just felt like having a laugh, or if they were actually misguided enough to think this move could really be useful, but it needs to go.

8: There is no reason his jumps should be as miserable as they currently are. They don't need to be great, but they do need to be improved significantly.

9: Change his Final Smash. Not really an improvement on Gdorf as a competitive fighter, but it would be beyond awesome if Gdorf could become a playable Ganon for a short period of time, kind of like Giga Bowser (but smaller - maybe twice Bowser's size or something), but with different moves and significantly different design from Gdorf. This would be especially cool if Ganon wasn't invincible and the transformation lasted fairly long. Obviously Ganon should still be quite overpowered, and it should take a very large skill gap for someone to beat him, but kicking *** as Ganon for part of the game would be amazing. If his Final Smash became too good, it's not a big deal anyway, considering the current disparity between the usefulness of the final smashes.

10: Replace all the CF clone moves, except Murder Choke which is now cool, useful, and different enough. This isn't so much of a gameplay improvement, but Gdorf should not have a bunch of buffed up, slowed down, CF moves. I would hesitate to call him a clone as he currently is, but the last traces of his clonehood should be erased. I don't know what his Up B should become (it would have to be at least as good a recovery move), and they could probably get away with just modifying the current one. I haven't taken the time to actually try and come up with something better, though.
Yup he has shown enough moves in Zelda.


As for Link's recovery...well increase his jump and the distance covered in the Spin Attack, also it can go upwards, Diagonal or sideways deppending on what direction you chose, also increase the catching and the distance the clawshot goes if it is used in the air.

Maybe that could help Link's horrid recovery.
 

Samuelson

Smash Lord
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Mar 29, 2008
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Not at Kinko's straight flippin' copies
Lucas - Get rid of the stupid Grab Release characters have on him
Ness - Same as Lucas
Mario -Make the knockback of Fludd greater and make his recovery a little bit longer
Pokemon Trainer - Get rid of fatigue, make Squirtles B move have greater knockback
Samus - Bombs should be like how they were in Melee, Super Missiles should be better
Yoshi - Make her side b do more damage and her down b have more knockback and priority
Sonic - Make everything have more priority
Jigglypuff - Make rest how is was in Melee
Ganondorf - Make recovery slightly better
Link - Make it so he can still attack after he uses Up B in the air, this would allow him to grapple the ledge right after Up B. His boomerang should be better also.
Cptn. Falcon - His priority should be all around better
 

Frown

poekmon
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Right here, not quite now
Metaknight:

- Make his dair a spike.
- Give him two more jumps.
- Give his upB a bigger hitbox
- Make his AAA harder to escape
- Give the mach tornado more priority
- Give all of his attacks 5 more damage

NAH, just kiddin'.

Yoshi: Make his egg lay useful, give egg throw more knockback, make him a real heavyweight character, make fsmash and usmash stronger.
 

TraverseTown

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
42
Uh, best way to raise tiers status of your favorite characters:

1. Play really good as your character
2. Develop strategy against High Tiers
3. Win major tournements
4. Lather Rinse Repeat.
 

Big-Cat

Challenge accepted.
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I still can't see why Lucas and Ness are so low. Anyway, I guess Lucas can have less grabbing after lag as mentioned earlier. Maybe give a bigger sweet spot for his Bair.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Lucas - Give PK fire maneuverability, like links boomerang.
Ness - Make Psi magnet also work like rest but weaker, so he can heal and deal!
Mario - Make his ground jump big, make his aerial jump good, make him jump like Ness and Lucas.
Pokemon Trainer - No battle fatigue and aerial switching, make switching grant High amounts of fatigue
Samus - Morph ball crawl, make her projectiles hit hard, and her a slow somewhat powerful tank
Yoshi - Egg roll needs an *** load of priority, Give him 2 mid air Jumps, but keep current jump height and just add the additional 1.
Sonic - Change > or down special, increase priority, and make his recovery not suck in heavy brawl lulz.
Jigglypuff - Make her shield the easiest to break in game if it isn't already, Give her a kick *** roll and more range.
Ganondorf - PIMP THIS MUTHA ****A OUT.
He needs levitation, and his mid air jump shouldn't come out like peach's either, make it like gliding, if he holds it he hovers, thats it >.>
Lightning ball attack, hell I want to post a full moveset for him.

Ability: hover
Side special: Murder Choke/teleportation/Cape
Teleportation is like Fox/falco's phantasmo, basically faster, takes damage when doing it
Cape = like mario's cape, doesn't reflect projectiles however but simply stops them, reflects people tho.

Neutral special: Lightning orb.

Down Special: Magical barrier/ Waves of Darkness.
Magical barrier: Pit's Mirror shield basically, touching it hurts.
Waves of darkness: Entire body generates waves of darkness that hurts.

Up special: teleportation/magic crystal
Teleportation: It's pikachu's but 5 jumps instead of 2, but each jump is smaller than one of pikachu's, total distance is greater however but harder to do.
Magic Crystal: Makes a magic crystal infront of him, grabs it and rides it upwards, if it hits a person they are trapped within.



Link - Give him Roc's Cape to Glide (not hover/float), bring back hookshot and increase it's range a bit, claw shots auto tether crap is stupid. Give ^B more horizontal DI and vertical height.
Also, make arrows shoot max distance automatically, make charging it turn them into ice arrows.

Cptn. Falcon - His priority should be all around better, and add crotch bulge for lulz.
 
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