If a moderator could remove this Thread it would b appreciatted. : )

[Twin Dreams]

good idea twin
i had no idea what to name it...so i just wrote something
but that was good
well it matters whether you are ascending or descending only because they switch directions depending on which one you chose
the momentum will shift to a different side depending on when you do it

Ok, so, you're saying....


B-sticking when ascending yields you facing one direction, while B-sticking when descending yields another direction????


What happens if I B-stick a Reverse-B while ascending? Wouldn't that yield a B-stick with my facing the opposite direction? (Also, this is exactly what you're doing.)

 

[Taymond]

Oh, I understand what different effect you're talking about now.

Before I go any further, I want you both to understand I'm really not trying to attack either of you. I may've responded a couple times a little negatively in response to your own negative comments towards me, but I really have nothing against either of you. I just genuinely feel that I understand what's occurring better than you two, and I'm trying to explain where you guys are making a conceptual error.

The difference between ascent and descent is only the amount of the effect that occurs. You two are assigning differences to them that are not there. If I understand correct, Candy, you're saying that.. well let me set up a situation so I can make easy references to left and right. Say you're facing right, and you start out jumping to the left (still facing right) in both cases.

While ascending, you can do this to gain momentum right and still be facing right.
While descending, you can do this to gain momentum left and be facing left.

Is that right? I'll speak from here as if that's correct. If it's not, ignore the rest of this post, correct me, and I'll post again. The ascent case I've already discussed at length. You're doing a turnaround B without realizing followed by a B-Reversal.

The descent case hasn't been mentioned in a while, but mugwhump and I addressed it early. I think you guys merely underestimate the amount of DI you can gain in the air, in general, in Brawl. If you're comparing to expectations from Melee, then yes, you're going to think there's a pronounced effect. All you're seeing, however, is how much more powerful DI is in Brawl.

I'd like you to try this: set your C-Stick to Specials and become relatively comfortable performing neutral B with it. To do so, just lightly tilt the stick on an angle. When you're comfortable doing that, I want you to try jumping and holding left and initiating a neutral B with the C-Stick, so you don't have to stop DIing. Compare that with the supposed "extra" momentum you gain with your tech. Measure how far you move, and I think you'll find that no extra momentum happens after all.

 

[xxCANDYxx]

its hard to explain
taymond: not quite....you had everything right until the descending part...you get momentum RIGHT while facing left...thats why descending is different then when your acsending
and twin: im not so sure what your trying to ask...if it is what i think im not so sure ...ima have to test it out tonight and get back to you k?

 

[Taymond]

*laughs* Wow. I cannot believe what I'm hearing.

So your descent case is the most OBVIOUS example of a B-Reversal there is? In the first, I had to at least show you that you were initiating a turnaround B in order to B-Reversal!

You press B and then slam backwards on the control stick. The result is that your momentum is reversed (from left to right) and your direction is reversed (from right to left). That is a B-Reversal. That's probably IN the B-Reversal instruction videos! That's the most blatantly obvious B-Reversal in this whole thread.

The difference between your two cases isn't the difference you think it is. It doesn't matter if you ascend or descend. You can do both in both cases. You just aren't doing them right if you can't. If you do a turnaround B first, then you get the first case, what you label "ascent," and if you don't do a turnaround B first, you get the second case, what you label "descent." It has nothing to do with ascent or descent, it just has to do with whether or not you do a turnaround B first.

Seriously? You think the "descent" case isn't a B-Reversal? The other ones were at least confusing to see what exactly was going on, this one is as plain as day! You input the input to perform a B-Reversal and you get the same output that a B-Reversal promises! If you initiate a Special and slam back on the Control Stick, you'll perform a B-Reversal. If you perform a B-Reversal, your momentum and direction will be reversed.

Here's what you do: You initiate a Special and you hit back on the Control Stick. As a result, your momentum and direciton are reversed. !!!!!

What's more likely? That there are two different techs that not only take the same input but produce the same output, or that you're just dong a B-Reversal?

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

It is B reversal However the momentum effects are completely opposite, thats y we posted this.

And Twin the point of the technique is to provide another option for changing face and for movement change. and it CAN BE PERFORMED BY EVERY CHARACTER GUARANTEED.

 

[Taymond]

They're not opposite from anything. They're different than 1 singular application of the B-Reversal, yes. The B-Reversal has enormous usage potential. It can be used a lot of different ways. Everything in this thread is just one of those ways.

If you recognize that everything you're doing is varied applications of the B-Reversal, why have you been arguing that point for so long, and why does this thread still claim that what you're doing is a yet-unnamed technique, and why are you still trying to associate your names in the title with something that several other people discovered and that even more people already explored the varied options of?

The momentum effects are exactly what you would predict the B-Reversal to do. It's not some quirk where the B-Reversal works backwards. It's exactly how the B-Reversal claims to work. It reverses your direction and momentum. That is ALL the B-Reversal claims. The B-Reversal doesn't claim "if you move forward and do the B-Reversal you get backwards momentum and you face backwards." The B-Reversal claims "If you initiate a special and press back on the control stick, you reverse your momentum and direction." Regardless of what direction you are moving or facing or anything.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

We said at the beginning of the thread that we aren't taking credit for B Momentum. The B reversal video that i saw with Zamus shows only using the AT in the first half of the jump. I wanted this thread to show that the B reversal Technique could be done in the second half of ur jump with similar momentum results but facing the opposite direction. The reason we didnt put the name B reversal is b/c in the original B reversal u start and finish facing the same direction. In the video we show that u face the opposite direction when u wait to start falling and input the opposite command. I can't emphasize that difference enough.

Lets say ur facing right. The B reversal performed in the first half of ur jump pushes u forward. Try this with some characters and u'll c barely any movement and some have huge movement. But every time u do it u end facing the same direction u started.

The Video we show shows u starting and ending in opposite directions. Not only that but i've seen different momentum results for characters such as kirby who normally dont get much at all getting much more in the Technique we show. can a technique b the same if the results and input are different? We dont know thats y we posted no title.

 

[Damax]

We said at the beginning of the thread that we aren't taking credit for B Momentum. The B reversal video that i saw with Zamus shows only using the AT in the first half of the jump. I wanted this thread to show that the B reversal Technique could be done in the second half of ur jump with similar momentum results but facing the opposite direction. The reason we didnt put the name B reversal is b/c in the original B reversal u start and finish facing the same direction. In the video we show that u face the opposite direction when u wait to start falling and input the opposite command. I can't emphasize that difference enough.

Lets say ur facing right. The B reversal performed in the first half of ur jump pushes u forward. Try this with some characters and u'll c barely any movement and some have huge movement. But every time u do it u end facing the same direction u started.

The Video we show shows u starting and ending in opposite directions. Not only that but i've seen different momentum results for characters such as kirby who normally dont get much at all getting much more in the Technique we show. can a technique b the same if the results and input are different? We dont know thats y we posted no title.

so if I shff a fair before the peak of the jump the technique is completly different and I should get my name on it. Then someone can discover that you can fair and ff at the peak of your jump thus another technique. Seriously, I read the C stick compendium and while messing with the B stick I did more that what you did. your so awesome technique also work with side b's I should definitly make a thread with it cause I'm too good I found an application of a technique. Yeah a technique can be the same with different input, that was the most ******** sentence ever. Let's have a name for a dash attack canceled up smash if you do it with the C stick, one if you do it with Z, one if you do it with A........ seriously

Its normal that B reversal shows you in the opposite direction. this technique you are trying to show is B STICKING ****. are you ******** or what? it was pointed out that you can do it with the control or b stick. all it does is give you a different momentum while performing a B move.

 

[Taymond]

No, you're completely confusing two separate techniques.

A Recoil Special results in you facing the same direction you started, and is probably the video example you're referring to.

A B-Reversal is a component of a Recoil Special, but it is not, in itself, a Recoil Special. They are distinct. You're making arbitrary definitions about when and how each can be used that do not exist.

If you just do a B-Reversal, you get your momentum and your direction reversed. You end up facing backwards and moving the opposite direction you were. If you do a turnaround B immediately followed by a B-Reversal, you end up facing the original direction having gained reverse momentum. This is commonly known as a Recoil Special.

You're lumping them together as one technique, and proclaiming quite inaccurately that when you perform this amalgam technique during ascent, a Recoil Special occurs, and when you perform it during descent, a B-Reversal occurs. You could not be further from the truth. You can do both of them in ascent AND descent. You have a vast misunderstanding of not only what these techniques really are but how they interact with each other, as well.

I can't emphasize this enough: You are incorrect. I am not speaking hotheadedly, I am not speaking out of emotion, I am not speaking out of anger, or spite, or insult, or hurt. I am speaking out of knowledge.

You're not listening to me! You do not fully understand the mechanics involved, and you aren't listening to my thorough explanations detailing what is really happening. The results of identical inputs AREN'T different, they're the same. The results of DIFFERENT inputs are different, yes. When you choose to perform only Recoil Specials during ascent and only B-Reversals during descent, it does absolutely nothing to prove a correlation between those particular moves and the direction of vertical movement.

Both can be performed during ascent, and both can be performed during descent.

How can you possibly claim the inputs are even the same in these cases? They're the exact opposite. In your "ascent" case, that is really a Recoil Special, you slam right on the Control Stick. In your "descent" case, which is a pure B-Reversal alone, you slam left on the Control Stick. Those aren't identical inputs, they're opposite inputs. The reason the Recoil Special occurs is because you are unknowingly initiating a turnaround B because the space between your release of the Control Stick to DI backwards and your input of a neutral B is short enough for the game to interpret a turnaround B. The length of that gap determines whether or not a turnaround B occurs, and you aren't allowing a large enough gap to NOT perform one. You unknowingly perform a turnaround B, then you B-Reversal it to the right, facing you back forwards again.

The reason a plain B-Reversal occurs in the second case is simply because.. that's how a B-Reversal works. You initiate, then you slam backwards on the Control Stick. Simple.

Any correlation between these two distinct techniques and ascent/descent stems entirely from a lack of understand on your part and an inability to perform these techniques correctly in all situations. You perceived correlations are merely reflections of when you, personally, succeed and fail at inputting these commands. The differences you proclaim DO NOT exist, however. I honestly don't know how much more clear I can be.

Believe me when I tell you that I know more about B-Reversals than either of you. I have put large amounts of my own time into researching them for my own benefit and so that I am able to make informed posts regarding them to others in this community. You are misinterpreting what is going on, and you are being thoroughly stubborn about considering that fact.

Your second paragraph in that last post perfectly demonstrates exactly why you need to stop being so stubborn and start listening to what others have to tell you. If you think that that is how a B-Reversal works, then you DO NOT understand B-Reversals. If you think that a B-Reversal alone could EVER leave you facing the same direction you were, then you DO NOT understand B-Reversals AT ALL.

PLEASE stop being stubborn and take a moment to listen to what others have to say.


Edit: As a corollary to Damax's post below this one, I'll offer you links to the original threads containing in-depth videos for both Recoil Specials (called wavebouncing at the time) and B-Reversals. If you familiarize yourself with the differences between them, and simply watch all of the videos involved, you'll probably start to see that your distinctions between "ascent" and "descent" of your fictional amalgam technique are, in fact, distinctions between two different techniques. While they are related, they are definitively distinct, and you need to understand this.

Additionally, while Zero9teen speaks only in terms of doing Recoil Specials through B-Sticking, it is just as possible to do it without, and you are already doing it quite a bit, mistaking it for something else, dubbing it your "ascent" case.

Here are the links:
B-Reversal Original Investigation Thread, by Jewdo

Recoil Specials Early Investigation Thread, by Zero9teen

I'd link to Panda's related thread, too but.. frankly these two are more helpful right now. You need to understand the difference between what you mistakenly believe to be different effects of the same move. These two threads have several videos that can show you quite well what that difference is. In particular, Jewdo's second video should give you a very clear understanding of the fact that a B-Reversal will ALWAYS reverse the direction you face. Always..

 

[Damax]

@candy n spike or gonzo whatever
alright there: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=53Wix_KsK5g

please stop being ignorant

 

[xxCANDYxx]

after reading all of your post and links to your threads and links to wavebouncing/c-sticking ive come to the conclusion that you guys do not understand whats going on....so i think im done with threads b/c no matter what we say you guys reppeat the same thing over and over again and frankly im tired of reading it...so im closing this thread alil later today
adios

 

[Twin Dreams]

after reading all of your post and links to your threads and links to wavebouncing/c-sticking ive come to the conclusion that you guys do not understand whats going on....so i think im done with threads b/c no matter what we say you guys reppeat the same thing over and over again and frankly im tired of reading it...so im closing this thread alil later today
adios

I find it funny that Candy is correct, and the rest of the world is wrong.

 

[Tyr_03]

I think the biggest reason for all the flaming is that your thread name was in mostly caps, you included your names in the thread (which makes you seem incredibly desperate to get your name in the smash history book or something) and that you tend to use bad spelling and grammar. If you're going to introduce a new technique first of all make sure that you understand every aspect of the technique and include your knowledge of WHY it's happening and how you believe it's different from previous techniques. This may have avoided most of the initial argument on b-sticking and recoil special and whatnot. This technique is really just a branch off of another one and is not nearly as exciting as you make it sound like. Next time do further research before posting and make an effort to sound like you know what you're talking about.

 

[Damax]

I find it funny that Candy is correct, and the rest of the world is wrong.

I guess its normal, because noob's technique are just always MUCH better than you think! and never ever discovered. Like that RZZZZ or something that posted triangle jumping and float canceling with peach claiming to be pro. lmao

I'll tell you something candy: you can dash attack canceled into upsmash without hitting someone and you can do it if you connect the dash attack, they ain't different techniques

ok let me try to explain you something: The B stick experiment only showed us that B moves cancels jump (aerial) momentum. And this is exactly what you are doing.

Here's the differences

-you are doing it while descending rather than ascending
-the momentum you gain from the b move is less than when ascending.

its the exact same as when I said the SH before peak and sh after peak attack, you get different results.

This isn't a new technique at all because IT IS the general mechanic of B sticking/or B recoil

Here's the physics that happen while doing a B stick/recoil when ascending: The left/right momentum in the jump gets canceled then The upward momentum is transformed into left/right momentum according to your DI.

here's your new technique's physics (basically B sticking during descend): The left/right momentumin the jump gets canceled (you stop moving left or right) then the downward momentum (which seems different than the upward one in this game thus preventing ''fastfallers'' from being harder to kill upward cause in brawl only weight matters) doesn't get transformed as left or right momentum like the upward momentum would...

this isn't a technique, simply physics of the B-sticking you ''thought'' you found. I don't care if you do it with the C stick or not, it is the same thing.

To this point, my post kills every of your ****ing arguments even your ****ing new vid. You probably left this thread only to find something new to say as to why its different. Its is clear that you are running low on argument because you can't compute what has been said.

though I agree with you this thread should be closed and deleted because it is indeed useless as you noob can't learn anything. If you want, I can get more people to tell you the same **** as I do and even more.

I'm done with the elementary school lessons, it made me remember why I didn't go for teacher. You definitly can't understand english or something. read again and again if you must so that you can understand.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Yo seriously uall, u aint gettin this shiit, so ME and Candy are def gonna take it down and next time u c our names dont bother posting.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yo seriously uall, u aint gettin this shiit, so ME and Candy are def gonna take it down and next time u c our names dont bother posting.

What is there to get? You are abusing Wolf's Inertia while gaining the same momentum properties as B-sticking. Only you are actually getting an opposite push. If people are angry with you because you try to advertise this as an advanced technique, then I wouldn't blame them. Many advanced techniques have universal utility, and don't simply taler to a specific character. Many advanced techniques have helped characters create their own technique or play style. Just because it causes an abnormality doesn't make this technique advanced, nor useful with effort.

And also, you can't stop someone from voicing their opinions. If you feel that you shouldn't be criticized based on your post, then you do so. Feeling mutilated by people posting is a common occurrence. Criticizing the applications and usefulness of the technique is the first phase of actually defining the meta-game, and apparently, the phase of criticism and application made this technique null and void.

 

[Damax]

What is there to get? You are abusing Wolf's Inertia while gaining the same momentum properties as B-sticking. Only you are actually getting an opposite push. If people are angry with you because you try to advertise this as an advanced technique, then I wouldn't blame them. Many advanced techniques have universal utility, and don't simply taler to a specific character. Many advanced techniques have helped characters create their own technique or play style. Just because it causes an abnormality doesn't make this technique advanced, nor useful with effort.

And also, you can't stop someone from voicing their opinions. If you feel that you shouldn't be criticized based on your post, then you do so. Feeling mutilated by people posting is a common occurrence. Criticizing the applications and usefulness of the technique is the first phase of actually defining the meta-game, and apparently, the phase of criticism and application made this technique null and void.

well look at their joins date. They are new to the competitive scene and haven't gotten their *** kicken yet at a serious tournament. Its obvious we destroyed their little world so telling us to keep aways is the lame way to say you won. just as deleting this thread.

 

[Taymond]

*laughs* I love how you guys can be so pointlessly elitist and stubborn over such an obvious fallacy on your part. We've done everything we can as a community to explain to you what is really going on here, but you refuse to listen, and you presumably refuse to try any examples we suggest to you, to demonstrate what we're saying, or else you'd see how blatantly and obviously correct we are.

It's so funny, because, after reading and hearing everything you guys have to say, i've come to the conclusion that you guys don't understand what's going on. And so has the rest of the intelligent portion of this community.

But nah, I get it. The two of you and your limited experience is certainly more reliable than the combined hundreds of hours myself and other B-Reversal-dedicated users have put into testing and understanding the mechanics of this game and the mechanics of the B-Reversal and Recoil Specials specifically. Because you two still naively think you're doing something different than what we've explained to you, probably now literally dozens of times in this thread, that you're doing.

You guys think it, right? So it couldn't possibly be wrong.

You know, I've been completely civil with you guys throughout this entire thread. And when possible, when there was any shred of doubt that I was correct, when I thought it was even remotely possible that you guys were correct, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and I politely and calmly asked to hear what you had to say. I listened to what you had to say, too. Not once have either of you been so open to the opinions of any of the other posters in this thread.

Why even post on a discussion forum if you aren't willing to discuss what you're posting? If you just want to take any old, convoluted, misconstrued ideas, post them here, and receive undying praise for it, you've come to the wrong place. If you want to maturely discuss a phenomenon you encounter with other knowledgeable players who have perfectly valid opinions, then that's what this is for.

What, exactly, makes any of our opinions less valid or worthy than yours? What makes you two so innately knowledgeable of the game that you can reject everything we say without fair consideration? I know you must reject it, because if you took enough time to really study and understand what we were telling you, the flaws in your own thinking would become patently obvious. Why do you assume, wrongly, that you know more than everyone here? Is it because you've seen a few ******* posters posting one-liner crap that shows just how little they know about what they're talking about? You feel you can generalize from them to the rest of us, and assume we don't have anything worthwhile to say, either?

I'm glad you're shutting down this worthless thread. There's no progress to be made if you continue to be as stubborn as you have been, so you're just wasting all of our time. I hope, when you have a better understanding of the game's mechanics, you realize that everything we told you was the plain and simple truth, and that you two took simple misunderstandings of what was occurring and blew them up into a fantasy tech theory that didn't hold together under even the slightest investigation.

I hope, also, that despite everything that happened in this thread, you both do continue to use B-Reversals regularly. Not once have I, or anyone who knows what they're talking about, proclaimed that what you're doing is in any way useless. B-Reversals rock. I'm going to continue using them, and I hope you do too, whatever you choose to pretend they are. No matter how proficient you become with them, though, nothing will change the fact that you do not understand what you are really doing.

If you two can live with such pig-headed stubbornness, then I guess that's all that really matters. Enjoy your "tech." Enjoy your severely limited understanding and application of a much more wide-ranging ability than you realize. Enjoy not being aware of the potential application to any special move, not merely neutrals, or the characters besides Wolf who gain just as much, if not more, out of varied B-Reversal usages. Enjoy Brawl. I hope you learn to be more willing to accept criticism and critiques.


Edit: @Eternal phoenix Fire, this IS actually an AT. 2 of them, in fact. It's possibly the AT currently with the most wide-spread potential usefulness, across all characters, and in an enormous of different manners of application. This is one of the few genuine ATs we have, and it's just as blanket-applicable as L-Cancelling was. It's called the B-Reversal. I encourage you to read more about it, in a more knowledgeable thread, if you are not already familiar with it. See my sticky, linked in my sig, for some links to original threads discussing B-Reversals and Recoil Specials, as well as a small portion of my own guide that addresses the mechanics behind them and the extent of their intertwinement.

Nobody who really understood what they were doing thought it wasn't a useful tech. We just all realized how wildly incorrect they are in their interpretation of what is occurring. We know that everything they're doing is a varied application of a B-Reversal, interspersed with turnaround B's to create Recoil Specials when applicable. They just think it's a different AT. It's not.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Edit: @Eternal phoenix Fire, this IS actually an AT. 2 of them, in fact. It's possibly the AT currently with the most wide-spread potential usefulness, across all characters, and in an enormous of different manners of application. This is one of the few genuine ATs we have, and it's just as blanket-applicable as L-Cancelling was. It's called the B-Reversal. I encourage you to read more about it, in a more knowledgeable thread, if you are not already familiar with it. See my sticky, linked in my sig, for some links to original threads discussing B-Reversals and Recoil Specials, as well as a small portion of my own guide that addresses the mechanics behind them and the extent of their intertwinement.

I've actually knows of the B-reversal for some time. I actually have been able to apply it with Characters such as Mario.

This whole situation in general just seems like desperate call for attention; hoping that they can get their 5 minutes of fame. If they don't want to post anymore, that's their problem. Constructive criticism isn't necessarily helps you cope with your mistakes, and possibly find a solution to them.

Acting immature about it isn't going to help anyone.

 

[SpikeSpiegel19]

Its not about knowing it **** IT. No one knew that u could do the move in the second half of ur jump and if u did there was no video so we posted one. Honestly were taken it down b/c uall dont seem to appreciate the work we put in. We never meant to steal the B momentum name.

"A desperate call for attention" ??? U sir can kiss my a55

If i ever do post anything again i'll make sure that a55holes like u can't c it

 

[DiasFlac]

wow I'm seeing some real love in this thread...

 

[Yuna]

Its not about knowing it **** IT. No one knew that u could do the move in the second half of ur jump and if u did there was no video so we posted one. Honestly were taken it down b/c uall dont seem to appreciate the work we put in. We never meant to steal the B momentum name.

"A desperate call for attention" ??? U sir can kiss my a55

If i ever do post anything again i'll make sure that a55holes like u can't c it

Doesn't mean you guys didn't claim you'd done some revolutionary new discovery and tried to name it. And then, when people helpfully (because I don't remember there being actual flaming at the beginning of this thread) pointed out what it actually was, you guys whined and tried to argue against them.

And fact remains, you created this thread instead of simply posting in the B-reversal thread saying "Hey, we figured out you could do this after your jump's peak (despite it being quite common sense). No one has mentioned it yet so we just thought we'd put it out there."

But you didn't. You made yet another thread claiming to have discovered a new technique and put your names in the thread title as if that were important (as if people would do "ZOMG! Candy and What's-His-Name made this thread! Important stuff!"). And didn't admit to being wrong even after many people (some nicely and some not-so-nicely) pointed out the facts.

Were some out of line? Surely. But so were you.

 

[Damax]

Its not about knowing it **** IT. No one knew that u could do the move in the second half of ur jump and if u did there was no video so we posted one. Honestly were taken it down b/c uall dont seem to appreciate the work we put in. We never meant to steal the B momentum name.

"A desperate call for attention" ??? U sir can kiss my a55

If i ever do post anything again i'll make sure that a55holes like u can't c it

why do you even post to tell us we won?

you sounds like thieves trying to make an escape.

 

[FartKnocker]

I stand by what I said on page 3.

We all hope you DO make threads where we can't see them.

That way we won't have to get in trouble at work when we laugh aloud at your pathetic attempts at getting "rek-o-nized"

 

[6footninja]

Someone lock this **** thread now. If he's not going to keep the original topic up then take it somewhere else.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Original topic:


Using well known techniques in ways that aren't specifically mentioned in other topics, but would be assumed to work when you think about it.

 

[Yuna]

Original topic:


Using well known techniques in ways that aren't specifically mentioned in other topics, but would be assumed to work when you think about it.

More like:
Original Topic - Failing to understand my sig.

 

[Twin Dreams]

More like:
Original Topic - Failing to understand my sig.

More li...


No, nvm. You've got it.