If any Advanced Tactics haven't been discovered yet...

[MrSquinshee]

there probably are none. Many of you will argue the opposite, that it took years to get Melee to the competitive level it is. However, that was before there was ever a tight-knit Smash community. That was before YouTube. That was before people were ripping the game apart to discover tactics that weren't originally intended. Nothing huge and game-changing has been discovered yet, and I truly doubt there is anything to find.

It sucks, because Brawl had so much potential, especially considering its predecessor.

 

[Apollo]

Funny that you're basing Brawl's potential on ATs, and that no ATs=no potential. Is this really the case?

 

[PinkPwnageFrenzy]

So Zap Jumps, B sticking, dash cancels, etc. aren't advanced enough for you? Oh, wait a sec, those are techniques.

The game has been out for a month in Japan, and a week and a half in the US. AT's take time to discover.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Haha this thread will end well.

But yeah. There's nothing to find.

 

[zB.]

I don't think it's necessarily possible to say either way. A ton has been discovered so far. There is absolutely no denying that fact. However, I personally feel that it is somewhat too early to be saying that there aren't any big breakthroughs coming, ever.

All things considered, Brawl is probably going to develop extensively whether or not any new significant advanced techniques are found.

 

[Jarvis75]

I agree with zB. Brawl is going to develop nicely, and the competition wont fade to zero if there aren't any ATs anyway.

 

[Shai Hulud]

So Zap Jumps, B sticking, dash cancels, etc. aren't advanced enough for you? Oh, wait a sec, those are techniques.

The game has been out for a month in Japan, and a week and a half in the US. AT's take time to discover.

These are very minor compared to Melee techs like shffling, dash dancing, wavedashing, etc.

They help but they are not fundamentally game-changing, and I think the op is right in that the remainder of techs discovered will not be major, i.e., game-changing. They will instead be minor and character-specific.

 

[Ganny]

don't rely on other people to discover things. I have found some stuff but am saving it for the MLG contest

 

[Shai Hulud]

don't rely on other people to discover things. I have found some stuff but am saving it for the MLG contest

What MLG contest? They haven't announced any tournaments. Are you talking about the film thing?

In the past some people have hoarded techniques for MLG tournaments, but that was when there was serious prize money. I doubt anyone good would do that for a chance at $1000.

 

[ph00tbag]

Wavedashing wasn't discovered until several years into Melee's lifespan.

Furthermore, there are several ATs, they're just different, and create a different way of playing the game. You shouldn't be expecting Melee here.

 

[stfunerds]

I have to agree with the possibility of TC. People are actively looking for new Adv Techs and haven't found many major ones yet. While I'll still give it a solid year to say for sure, people weren't looking for ATs when melee came out so naturally it took a while for people to stumble upon them in melee. Many people are looking for them in brawl and if after several more months to a year or so there aren't any groundbreaking ones, I don't know if there will be many.

 

[Var]

These are very minor compared to Melee techs like shffling, dash dancing, wavedashing, etc.

They help but they are not fundamentally game-changing, and I think the op is right in that the remainder of techs discovered will not be major, i.e., game-changing. They will instead be minor and character-specific.

Lucas would argue otherwise, notably for b-sticking. It basically defines his game and makes him better.

Current 'ATs' are limited to characters in terms of usefulness, which can be good or bad. As for super game-changing ATs, well, those take time as they usually don't show themselves when looked for and only occur when not looked for, that's just how the universe works.

To be honest, I find it funny when people want game changing discovering on a new game. Let the 'new' run its course and then we can change the game into whatever we want.

 

[Gkryptonite]

[Laying Down Bricks of Text]
I believe a plethora of AT's will spawn from everywhere overwhelming people with a sea of knowledge!!

Seriously, look at all the techs people found in 11 days, I mean seriously go search around for all of the character specifics in the character section and the others in the threads here, AT's are growing like wildfire, and the dedicated mains are going to find them. I mean just a few months before Brawl was released Melee was still getting new techs, and characters were getting more attention.

11 days is nothing to judge for the games potential in new techs, but if it was then you should be impressed as many are being found in this small span of time, and just because they aren't any groundbreaking techs or profound metagame changing techniques doesn't mean it isn't important

[/TextBricks]

 

[WastingPenguins]

Speaking of b-sticking... it basically sucks because you have to give up c-stick aerial control in order to use it.

 

[Nok2]

What is B sticking?

 

[J0K3R]

Making b moves on c stick

 

[Taymond]

B-sticking is pretty much a retreating special attack. If you set your c-stick to special attacks and press back on the c-stick while holding forward on the control stick, your character will do the appropriate special, facing your current direction, but receive some backwards momentum. This can be accomplished without "b-sticking" as well.

To break down what is happening, first your character initiates a turnaround B by pressing the opposite direction and then quickly using a special, in that order. Then, your character does a "B-reversal" (working name, not of my choosing) which reverses the direction of your attack AND your momentum by quickly changing direction again AFTER pressing special. So to do without a b-stick, you press back, special, then forward again. Turnaround B reverses your direction only, then B-reversal switches your direction and momentum, resulting in a retreating special.

That said...

I agree that the argument that Melee took much longer to develop ATs is not a usable one when discussing Brawl. At the time of Melee's release, there was a significantly smaller fanbase, no unifying community like smashboards to promote sharing of ideas, and an even smaller fraction of the fanbase that would've made any effort to search out ATs immediately. People weren't that concerned with it, frankly.

At Brawl's release, there was an ENOURMOUS carryover fanbase from Melee, as well as a sizable new fanbase. There already exists a very large competitive crowd interested in finding ATs fast, and a wealth of information sharing in various online smash communities, like smashboards. There are thousands of users, both old and new, investigating every aspect of the physics engine they can think of for potential exploits. People know what they're looking for, and they know how to look for it.

The two situations are not comparable. While I by no means claim that nothing new can or will be discovered--I certainly believe new things will still be coming to light for years, it is by no means guaranteed that we will reveal ATs as gamechanging as anything in Melee. We are discovering potential exploits and peculiarities of the physics engine at an alarming rate, and at an equally alarming rate, we will eventually exhaust most possibilities.

The mere possibility of the existence of ATs undiscovered does not guarantee their existence. The argument that because Melee ATs were discovered slowly and sporadically, there will always be gamechanging Brawl techniques still to find is absurd. People weren't looking anywhere near this hard for ATs in Melee.

We're in a completely different situation, and blanket dismissals of the reality of that situation aren't logical.

 

[Junpappy]

Tripping destroys competition. Unless someone discovers a way to completely avoid tripping, this game will suck at high levels of tournament play.

 

[SenorPresidente]

Speaking of b-sticking... it basically sucks because you have to give up c-stick aerial control in order to use it.

B-sticking sucks if you are not playing with Lucas.

For better or for worse brawl AT seem like will be mostly character specific. Like mentioned before Lucas can zap jump and he even has a wave dash with his magnet and just now at the Ness section, his yo yo hanging trick has been confirm.

 

[Santana]

We're in a completely different situation, and blanket dismissals of the reality of that situation aren't logical.

Yes. Essentially, it's denial.

 

[The Bino]

Wavedashing wasn't discovered until several years into Melee's lifespan.

Furthermore, there are several ATs, they're just different, and create a different way of playing the game. You shouldn't be expecting Melee here.

Actually, Wavedashing was discovered less than 6months after Melee had been released

 

[WoodHaven The Cat]

While i think ATs will evolve tremendously, if they don't mindgames will take their place.

 

[baheffron]

Brawl will not have the tournament potential that melee has, and there will be no game changing techniques that will be discovered.

In Brawl, you have to hit someone, wait until they screw up, and either hit or grab them again about 10 seconds later. Melee was focused on the enemy tripping up ONCE and then stringing combos to the best of your ability to rack up damage. Combos are almost impossible in Brawl because of the low gravity and the near instant recovery system. The end result is a game that is extremely boring compared to Melee.

Oh, and speaking of tripping, WHY INCLUDE THIS IN THE GAME??? It's completely random, and if you trip, it completely destroys any momentum you might have during a match. WTF. Not only did Sakurai take out (arguably) all useful advanced techniques (dash dancing, wave dashing, sffling) and added a mechanic that further reduces the competitiveness of the game. As I have said before, NIntendo is catering more and more to the "everyone" audience, and it is hurting the competitive community.

 

[Ballistaboy]

Brawl will not have the tournament potential that melee has, and there will be no game changing techniques that will be discovered.

In Brawl, you have to hit someone, wait until they screw up, and either hit or grab them again about 10 seconds later. Melee was focused on the enemy tripping up ONCE and then stringing combos to the best of your ability to rack up damage. Combos are almost impossible in Brawl because of the low gravity and the near instant recovery system. The end result is a game that is extremely boring compared to Melee.

Oh, and speaking of tripping, WHY INCLUDE THIS IN THE GAME??? It's completely random, and if you trip, it completely destroys any momentum you might have during a match. WTF. Not only did Sakurai take out (arguably) all useful advanced techniques (dash dancing, wave dashing, sffling) and added a mechanic that further reduces the competitiveness of the game. As I have said before, NIntendo is catering more and more to the "everyone" audience, and it is hurting the competitive community.

I read in a post somewhere that Sakurai actually intended for the game to be harder to be amazing at and stand out more.

 

[Crizthakidd]

when mele came out did it take 1month to discover all the secret AT and glitches? did everyone give up on it in the first month lol....

 

[rageagainst]

when mele came out did it take 1month to discover all the secret AT and glitches? did everyone give up on it in the first month lol....

thanks for the stupid blanket statement, nice to see so many people on this board who don't bother to read the thread before posting

 

[ggPeteQ]

God I've been having this argument ever since n00bs got their hands on brawl.

It's going to take YEARS before people find the advanced techs in Brawl. I hate how people are evaluating Brawl's potential with less than a month of playing it.

 

[Professor Smash Attack]

I'm honestly not even sure what would make a new technique "advanced" enough for you. Some of the current stuff is really hard to pull off, but it doesn't merit the "advanced" label, apparently.

I think that the problem is that a lot of people are LOOKING for these, and not playing the game. A lot of the time, people try to find the new wavedash and in the process miss out on basic game mechanics. Very few of us are really accustomed to playing Brawl, and it does take a special sort of person to realize when a little something that may reveal itself in an instant can change the game forever.

I also think that tournaments, big ones, will probably be where a lot of these are discovered and implemented, because they will have all the best players trying to beat each other. This kind of competition breeds the techniques that give some people an advantage. Right now, Brawl competition is fairly local(this really isn't a game made for online, and don't tell me that the Gamespot tourney counts).

And besides, even IF nothing game-changing is developed, that just makes the game MORE complex.

Think about it.

Brawl won't be a one-trick pony(okay, lots of tricks, but the same ones across the board). Brawl will have to develop ways to utilize every character to their fullest potential, and everyone will have to learn to counter these. And instead of (random low numbers, of course) five techs for all characters, you're going to have to deal with maybe five for each character. And it'll make the game that more deep, because we'll just have to learn how to make this game more psychological and we'll have to learn that much more about every character.

The depth of something like that is really impressive.

 

[Ban Heim]

God I've been having this argument ever since n00bs got their hands on brawl.

It's going to take YEARS before people find the advanced techs in Brawl. I hate how people are evaluating Brawl's potential with less than a month of playing it.

You're a ******. Read the topic next time.

Nobody was searching for advanced techniques in Melee. Because of that, it took longer because most of them were found by accident.

In Brawl, people started looking for advanced techniques from as early as E3 (even earlier if you count all of those people analyzing videos) and nothing groundbreaking has been found yet. With so much active involvement in the search for advanced techniques, if nothing has been found by now, it's pretty safe to assume that it never will be.

Techniques such as B-sticking are semi-useful at best. They don't give a character an extreme advantage and as soon as you realize how the technique works, it's easy to fight around it.

 

[Fletch]

Funny that you're basing Brawl's potential on ATs, and that no ATs=no potential. Is this really the case?

Yes it is.

 

[Garde]

Professor Smash Attack, I agree with a lot of your stance.

One big reason as to why we can't search for ATs successfully is because the physics engine is fundamentally different from Melee's. We cannot exploit it in the same ways, and a lot of people are still in "Melee Mode." Honestly, snap cancelling is a product of something that was in Melee combined with the new engine, you could hold down or away when passing a ledge and you wouldn't snap to it (it's obviously a lot more useful now). There's nothing wrong with finding older techniques, I think this is an important step, but you can't just search the game using experience from an older game and say that there's nothing important after a month. We're working with a lot of new material, and not everyone has video capture capabilities (and some people might have stumbled onto things without realizing they were ATs, might not know how they did it and shrug it off as a glitch, or might not even belong to a community like ours).

This is a different engine and going about discovering ATs based on experience from Melee is fundamentally flawed. Relying on our past experience will only lead us to find things that existed in previous games and have to find new uses for them (like snap cancelling), but we already know that Sakurai intentionally took out a lot of the ATs from Melee. The ATs that have been discovered that weren't present in Melee seem to mostly have been discovered on accident so far (like b-sticking, which seems like a completely accidental discovery).

What we need is just for the game to develop competitively and ATs will pop up, or maybe they won't. You can't predict how soon or late an AT will show up, they are mostly discovered by chance. Though it's probable that nothing game-changing will show up, we can hope because it's still possible.

Also, at this point I agree that this game is going to probably boil down to a lot of character specific techs instead of pretty much blanket techs like WDing, SHFFLing, and chain grabbing that I think sort of plagued Melee (though I still love that game and play it).

 

[nadirb1]

The AT's in Brawl will (I think) not come down to ridiculous moves like wave-dashing and chain grappling (things that I hated, but lets not get into that), but will instead arise from people learning how to MOVE their character and USE the characters abilities while being able to move.

Let go of your Melee mindsets. Its a new game. Play it.

 

[-Aether]

I agree that gamechanging techniques will most likely not be discovered. It's a pity L-canceling was removed because it was so integral to the last two games

 

[Taymond]

@Garde, this is completely flawed logic. The physics engines are different, but they are by no means incomparable. Also, you seem to think we're searching for ATs in Melee, still. That's not the case at all. Melee knowledge only gives us a better idea of how and where to look for physics exploits, it in no way hinders those discoveries.

@nadirb1, chaingrabs exist here, too, just fewer of them. Although arguably worse ones. Brawl's few chaingrabs are near infinite when performed perfectly, Melee's eventually ended because of increased knockback.

@Everyone, I hate to tell you this, but your apparent conception that Melee competitive players suck at Brawl couldn't be further from the truth. Good competitive Melee players are good at Brawl, and they'll still beat people from the casual Brawl crowd consistently, in most cases, because they know how to play the game to its fullest, how to predict and how to be unpredictable. They're out there playing the game, getting better, just like you.

I wish people would read posts before they posted, because it has been explained several times that we are in a different situation now than we were at Melee's release, and until someone addresses the differences presented between the two cases and attempts to rectify them, continued blanket dismissals of people's concerns, like "Melee took longer to develop ATs" are not only redundant but just plain stupid. You've been presented with an argument that says that doesn't matter, that you're not using a valid argument. Refute it, don't just say the same worthless, nondescript blanket statements over again.

 

[distr0ia]

I'm honestly not even sure what would make a new technique "advanced" enough for you. Some of the current stuff is really hard to pull off, but it doesn't merit the "advanced" label, apparently.

I think that the problem is that a lot of people are LOOKING for these, and not playing the game. A lot of the time, people try to find the new wavedash and in the process miss out on basic game mechanics. Very few of us are really accustomed to playing Brawl, and it does take a special sort of person to realize when a little something that may reveal itself in an instant can change the game forever.

I also think that tournaments, big ones, will probably be where a lot of these are discovered and implemented, because they will have all the best players trying to beat each other. This kind of competition breeds the techniques that give some people an advantage. Right now, Brawl competition is fairly local(this really isn't a game made for online, and don't tell me that the Gamespot tourney counts).

And besides, even IF nothing game-changing is developed, that just makes the game MORE complex.

Think about it.

Brawl won't be a one-trick pony(okay, lots of tricks, but the same ones across the board). Brawl will have to develop ways to utilize every character to their fullest potential, and everyone will have to learn to counter these. And instead of (random low numbers, of course) five techs for all characters, you're going to have to deal with maybe five for each character. And it'll make the game that more deep, because we'll just have to learn how to make this game more psychological and we'll have to learn that much more about every character.

The depth of something like that is really impressive.

can somebody sticky this?

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

this topic is incredibly moronic.

yes, the competitive scene for brawl is different from melee's, and at's will be found more quickly. and yes, if not many good at's are found within a relatively smaller timespan, that means they're probably not there.

what makes this topic so stupid is the fact that GAME CHANGING AT'S HAVE ALREADY BEEN FOUND. your problem is, you want it to be something universal, like wavedashing, when it appears that's not how this game is going to work.

i mean, honestly, wavebouncing completely alters the way lucas is played, and it's a fairly useful technique for multiple other characters. have you heard of hydroplaning? or stage scarring? how about the glide toss?

there are already advanced techniques. these techniques ARE changing the game. this topic is pointless.

 

[SFJake]

New techniques, advanced tactics, whatever. A lot is found here and there. Truth is, however, that none are game breaking, none are even as useful as, say, L-Cancel, which was not game breaking but very useful.

Now when I say game breaking, you could also read "changing", as in it completely changes everything, as Wavedash did. I believe we won't have anything that changes so much in Brawl, and that, is a VERY GOOD thing.

 

[Dark-Pikachu-0]

Since approach isn't as secure as before, you have to rely more on prediction, make your opponent miss or read his attempts to make you miss then capitalize. So you'll have to successfully mindgame your opponent more times than in melee to rack up a kill. I actually prefer it this way. After we all learn how to counter our opponents, make them fail and make the best out of each of our opponent's failures we'll be in mindgame heaven. The game is just easier on the hands, but it's more tactical than before, IMO (as of now).

 

[solesoul]

There's nothing wrong with finding older techniques, I think this is an important step, but you can't just search the game using experience from an older game and say that there's nothing important after a month

So very true sir.

Now prepare yourself, for my wall of text.

It seems to me, that whenever someone says that they miss Melee's ATs, they're really only talking about wavedashing and shffl-ing. Yes, I realize that they were amazingly useful, and changed forever how Melee game was played, but can someone explain to me why they matter so much to Brawl? I mean, you're not going to pick up the new Soul Caliber and say "this sucks, it has no wavedashing, so the metagame will suck." Brawl doesn't have those specific techniques, and who is to say that there won't be an equivalent to those techniques someday, but they aren't in Brawl and if those two things (or whichever ones that you really miss) are truly stopping you from enjoying the game, then by all means go back to Melee. They will still be there. Or, you could do like the rest of us, and keep playing Melee (we played that game for years, do you really think we're giving up on it?) but still move on to Brawl.

Lack of Melee's ATs in Brawl ≠ Lack of Brawl ATs
Lack of Melee's metagame in Brawl ≠ Lack of metagame in Brawl

 

[WastingPenguins]

Think about it.

Brawl won't be a one-trick pony(okay, lots of tricks, but the same ones across the board). Brawl will have to develop ways to utilize every character to their fullest potential, and everyone will have to learn to counter these. And instead of (random low numbers, of course) five techs for all characters, you're going to have to deal with maybe five for each character. And it'll make the game that more deep, because we'll just have to learn how to make this game more psychological and we'll have to learn that much more about every character.

ITT tons of people who never played Melee on a competitive level and who hold the same popular misconceptions about that game, i.e. that the characters existed in some kind of homogeneous vacuum and could all be played the same. Ideas around Smash Boards quickly become mantras for the masses and spread so fast they start to lose their meaning. How about actually looking objectively at the two games you're comparing instead of parroting someone who parroted what GAWes (I think) said in that "This **** just got real" thread from a month ago?