If any Advanced Tactics haven't been discovered yet...

[Mercury]

go cry more, baby.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

lol @ people who are still crying about Brawl.

I'm honestly not even sure what would make a new technique "advanced" enough for you. Some of the current stuff is really hard to pull off, but it doesn't merit the "advanced" label, apparently.

I think that the problem is that a lot of people are LOOKING for these, and not playing the game. A lot of the time, people try to find the new wavedash and in the process miss out on basic game mechanics. Very few of us are really accustomed to playing Brawl, and it does take a special sort of person to realize when a little something that may reveal itself in an instant can change the game forever.

I also think that tournaments, big ones, will probably be where a lot of these are discovered and implemented, because they will have all the best players trying to beat each other. This kind of competition breeds the techniques that give some people an advantage. Right now, Brawl competition is fairly local(this really isn't a game made for online, and don't tell me that the Gamespot tourney counts).

And besides, even IF nothing game-changing is developed, that just makes the game MORE complex.

Think about it.

Brawl won't be a one-trick pony(okay, lots of tricks, but the same ones across the board). Brawl will have to develop ways to utilize every character to their fullest potential, and everyone will have to learn to counter these. And instead of (random low numbers, of course) five techs for all characters, you're going to have to deal with maybe five for each character. And it'll make the game that more deep, because we'll just have to learn how to make this game more psychological and we'll have to learn that much more about every character.

The depth of something like that is really impressive.

Quoted for truth.

Heck, I've found plenty of stuff with Wario that nobody ever knew about. (I know that's relatively easy since the game just came out but still, it's progress!) I wasn't trying to find it either. I was just playing normally as always and I accidentally pressed the wrong button and Hey! Holy crap I didn't know Wario could do that! lol

 

[MartinGM1983]

there probably are none. Many of you will argue the opposite, that it took years to get Melee to the competitive level it is. However, that was before there was ever a tight-knit Smash community. That was before YouTube. That was before people were ripping the game apart to discover tactics that weren't originally intended. Nothing huge and game-changing has been discovered yet, and I truly doubt there is anything to find.

It sucks, because Brawl had so much potential, especially considering its predecessor.

Sadly, I've had the exact same thoughts about what your saying.

I can say that the jump from melee from 64 was a totally new platform creation and was prone to new glitches and such; thus allowing for exploitations and the competitive community to jump on them and create an advantage. The same engine is use for Brawl; The physics improved.

After they discovered the glitches and removed them, I'm almost 100% they spent endless hours of research to create a more level playing field for everyone. A perfect example is tripping. They removed the most basic of technique advantages we "advanced" players had; Dash dancing ( and I say advanced with the most easy of tech's ) and made it so we all must move in logical forward attack or retreat patterns and punished the past DD'ers.

Great post above. There is one thing though; these boards serve a service to the community to create hub for communication about the game. Any new info that is streamlined that allows me to take an advantage this early is appreciated. I've beaten every single friend that was an avid fan of melee, simply because of all the excellent work done by the posters. Great job guys.

 

[Mama]

First of all, regardless of the community size everyone playing Brawl is stille pretty newbie. A lot of people may be looking but I doubt they're looking correctly. Since this game revolves around different tactics and things the way people need to look is different then they way they'd need to look if they were looking in Melee.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter how hard you look, that just produces frustration and idiots. Most things are discovered by accident. A lot of other things are known for a while but under appreciated until people start thinking outside the box and do stuff different.

Lastly, use the search option. Duplicate posts are stupid. Whats even more stupid is this post (original post) shouldn't even be its own thread. Its more like a fraction of an intelligent post taken out of context and then made stupid.

 

[WastingPenguins]

To add to what the OP said: think of early Melee players as a few dozen middle schoolers working on a lab report in chemistry class. They don't know **** about chemistry and certainly aren't going to make any new scientific discoveries, just as those early Melee players were horrible at Smash and took their time discovering things and becoming better players. Then think of early Brawl players + Smash Boards as a state of the art laboratory brimming with hundreds of the most dedicated, brilliant scientific minds in the world.

See? The Smash landscape is a little different between the releases of the two games. If there were things to be discovered, they'd be discovered 100 times sooner than they were in Melee.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

WE KNOW.

THERE HAVE BEEN DISCOVERIES ALREADY. GET THE HELL OVER YOURSELVES.

the at's in this game, so far, appear to be character specific, but just because most of what we have is character specific doesn't mean there's NOTHING there. i mean, for christ's sake, squirtle has an at that is essentially a slightly slower wavedash. are you going to tell me that wavedashing in melee was omfgadvanced and shellshifting in brawl isn't even worth mentioning?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

EDIT: I agree with the above poster. I'd say 90% of the advanced techs in this game are character-specific. But techs are techs, at least they're still being found

If there were things to be discovered, they'd be discovered 100 times sooner than they were in Melee.

Not necessarily. Like many people have already said, the problem is that some people are TRYING to find these techs, instead of just playing the game and letting them come naturally. I'll willing to bet that if people stopped digging for techs we'd actually find them sooner. lol

Frankly the "we should've found everything by now" argument is terrible logic.

 

[RedTone]

I'd like to add I was inspired by most of these posts particularly Prof. Smash Attack

Let's look at another competitive fighter .. Street Fighter 3rd Strike
the game had no exploitable "AT" for every character to better their game
it was up to the player and what they knew about their character to play against other players
It was the characters potential that played the game, such as: Chun Li and her usual high priority attacks and defensive strategy(throwing out her special whenever she could), Ken and his crazy balance and offense/counter-defense(also throwing out his special combo whenever he could), and Yun's trying to kick your *** using comboes and rush..those were usually the top tiers .. but then later in tournaments there was a Q (this character was a bottom tier) that ***** one of the best Ken and Chun Li players all because they found out his taunt raised his defense when used multiple times

the point is Brawl is going to be the same way, rather than one thing all characters can use.. there will be things only the character itself can do.. and for me I think this will focus the metagame for every character more than ever.. this can be seen with what we know now..for example we have Sonic, a lot of people (including myself) would say all he does is spindash and spin and dash, but he's the fastest character in the game and seeing a good sonic really makes you think another way, other things like Pikachu's QAC or Toon Link's gameplay (crazy) could set the way people play this new game

 

[Garde]

MartinGM, Brawl's engine is the Havok (or Havoc, not sure on the spelling) engine. It is a completely reworked engine and is NOT the same as Melee's (though I'm sure they recycled some pieces of Melee's engine). Physics are also part of a game engine, in fact, any general aspect of game that can be shown to be true for the majority of characters/players is often a part of the engine (jumping, running, shielding, throwing, etc.). Yes, the platform may essentially be the same (Wii and GCN are practically identical in hardware capabilities), but the engine on which the game runs is not, and in fact they are very different (which is why many ATs from Melee are no longer present, NOT just SHFFLing and LCing, though they are the most prominent).

Taymond, while I agree that having experience discovering exploits can definitely help the process, sometimes having too much experience in a similar game (like Melee) can cause people to be blind to things that someone who's never played the game before might think of. This can happen especially because something wasn't possible in the older game and some people may have become so accustomed to not having such a feature that it doesn't even cross their mind. I see people complaining about how there's no WD, no LC, etc. and a lot of those people (if they are looking for ATs) are so set on WDing and LCing that they might miss something that CAN fundamentally change Brawl in a different way because they're too focused on something from Melee. That is all that I am saying about having too much experience in Melee can hurt, especially if a lot of the people here haven't had experience discovering the ATs from Melee and have just sort of incorporated the ones discovered by others into their own playstyle. Then they're basically kids running around with expensive graphing calculators solving differential equations but don't know how they're doing it. For the people that actually spent time in Melee discovering things on their own and really learning the capabilities of the engine, I believe they would definitely have a good chance of being able to do the same thing for Brawl, but it's a different engine and so they must start over in that process in order to do their best job at finding exploits.

Vulgar, there are ATs that have been found that change how you play a few characters, but nothing that fundamentally changes the way the competitive game will be played for EVERYONE (or even large portions). Bomb recoveries with Link and Samus didn't really change the way other people played, but WDing, LCing, DIing, dash dancing, JCing, DJCing, etc. had big effects on many characters (if not all). The closest thing to this that has been discovered so far is B-sticking for Brawl, which does not have nearly the advantageous impact any of the ATs I mentioned did for Melee, which became integral in many characters' play styles. The ATs that have been discovered so far will go a long way in developing specific characters and how to play against them, as did JCing reflectors and auto-cancelling B-moves for Fox/Falco, float cancelling for Peach, etc., but they won't be as integral to the game as LCing was (which affected every character a lot). It's those ATs that might integrally affect the game of which a lot of people are hoping for.

I'm honestly sort of relieved there is no WDing or LCing in this game (though I did not feel this way when I first discovered that these, among many other abilities had been removed), because this will allow a lot more focus on character specifics and creative ways to get around some of the barriers that we face without LCing and WDing.

 

[Professor Smash Attack]

To add to what the OP said: think of early Melee players as a few dozen middle schoolers working on a lab report in chemistry class. They don't know **** about chemistry and certainly aren't going to make any new scientific discoveries, just as those early Melee players were horrible at Smash and took their time discovering things and becoming better players. Then think of early Brawl players + Smash Boards as a state of the art laboratory brimming with hundreds of the most dedicated, brilliant scientific minds in the world.

See? The Smash landscape is a little different between the releases of the two games. If there were things to be discovered, they'd be discovered 100 times sooner than they were in Melee.

Okay, I feel this logic is flawed in a few ways. Let me provide a counterexample.

Let's look at penicillin for a moment, its creation.

Big labs had seen the error that lead to its invention long before, it had happened before. But guess what? It took a genius to get that mistake and REALIZE it's true practical application. It's true that, yes, in a larger community there is a higher chance of a great mind working at this. But honestly? I think it takes a bit of observation, too. The kind that isn't always received from a lot of vigorous play-testing. Yes, an understanding of the game and the physics engine helps. But I think we're still going to be making weird mistakes for months, some of which will be observed as the tactically important techniques that they are.

The idea that we've got everything down is absurd.

Oh, and furthermore!~

We're building on top of what we already know. These techs are evolving. To say that knowing of these little techs won't lead to creating more complex techs is like saying that someone who did not know how to L-cancel was equally as likely to discover wavedashing. If you don't know and understand the less complicated aspects of the game(which we n00bs of Brawl really don't, we're still getting used to the changes), then you're less likely to to see the big picture.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Vulgar, there are ATs that have been found that change how you play a few characters, but nothing that fundamentally changes the way the competitive game will be played for EVERYONE (or even large portions). Bomb recoveries with Link and Samus didn't really change the way other people played, but WDing, LCing, DIing, dash dancing, JCing, DJCing, etc. had big effects on many characters (if not all). The closest thing to this that has been discovered so far is B-sticking for Brawl, which does not have nearly the advantageous impact any of the ATs I mentioned did for Melee, which became integral in many characters' play styles. The ATs that have been discovered so far will go a long way in developing specific characters and how to play against them, as did JCing reflectors and auto-cancelling B-moves for Fox/Falco, float cancelling for Peach, etc., but they won't be as integral to the game as LCing was (which affected every character a lot). It's those ATs that might integrally affect the game of which a lot of people are hoping for.

i knoooooooooooooooooooooooow......

we know already. it looks as though there aren't going to be many universal techniques discovered. boo ****ing hoo. EACH CHARACTER has their own intricacies, and their own advanced techniques that are specific to them.

if you'd rather have every character be restricted to the same five "advanced techniques" instead of each character being almost entirely unique in terms of ability and possible playstyle, then i suppose that's fine.

i, for one, got tired of seeing fox/falco/marth in the last two rounds of every tournament because they were the best at using melee's universal advanced techniques. playing fox or falco was practically a requirement. hopefully, not having universal techniques will keep this game from being completely homogeneous.

 

[T Bird]

There was a SERIOUS problem with melee, and that was the fact that characters were incredibly imbalanced. The issue of ATs and the issue of imbalance do not only NOT go hand in hand, they are not even related. In melee, lots of little tricky things were found for individual characters as well. It was these that imbalanced the game, not wave dashing and shuffling. Wave dashing, which everyone complained about, made some charecters playable. Luigi? ICs? My point is brawl is not better balanced by lack of broad ATs. You may have been tired of seeing Fox and Falco and Marth and Sheik ALL the time, so was I, but that has nothing to do with broad ATs or this topic. Characters in all used l-canceling and almost all used wave dashing, this did not make them play similarly. I would love to see someone try to play Falco and Marth the same way.
Point being props for balance, but still boo on removing so many ATs.
Will more ATs be found? Yes, will they be perticularly useful? No they will sadly not. Many techniques being listed currently aren't really game changing that we've been searching for, "shell shifting"? That's not even an exploit, he's just obviously designed that way. Try moving like that to much and you'll prolly trip a lot though, that's a lot of stick movement and it IS slower. Maybe you didn't know but in Melee dashes could be crouch-cancled into any smash, this was much similar to wavedashing, but VERY slightly slower. That made a huge difference, so will this.
B-sticking? Cool, buttons do things they obviously shouldn't, this LITERALLY changes nothing as far as we know. As far as we know B-sticking does NOTHING you can't do without changing your c-stick to special. It makes RARing auto, easier, but not necessarilly better. Even the B thing with Lucas can be done without the b-stick.
Anywho, brawl is simply put, slow, and kinda boring. It is know where near as fast paste as melee and that is sad.

 

[mark.]

stop crying and give it some time, no one does it perfect on the first day

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

There was a SERIOUS problem with melee, and that was the fact that characters were incredibly imbalanced. The issue of ATs and the issue of imbalance do not only NOT go hand in hand, they are not even related. In melee, lots of little tricky things were found for individual characters as well. It was these that imbalanced the game, not wave dashing and shuffling. Wave dashing, which everyone complained about, made some charecters playable. Luigi? ICs? My point is brawl is not better balanced by lack of broad ATs. You may have been tired of seeing Fox and Falco and Marth and Sheik ALL the time, so was I, but that has nothing to do with broad ATs or this topic. Characters in all used l-canceling and almost all used wave dashing, this did not make them play similarly. I would love to see someone try to play Falco and Marth the same way.
Point being props for balance, but still boo on removing so many ATs.

answer me this: if only a handful of characters, literally 3-5 members of the cast, are considered "best" (depending on playstyle) at using these universal techniques, what's the point of using anyone outside of that small handful? sure, universal techniques made a few characters playable (ganon, ic's, etc) ... but nobody played them. who played ic's in tournaments? there were literally like 3 noteworthy ic users. everybody played as a space animal with their marth as a backup, or something similar.

there's no denying that universal techniques had a hand in the creating the stale competitive scene we had for melee. could different characters use those techniques to different effect? yes, that's why we had tiers. were those tiers all about who could use those same five or techniques to the greatest effect? well, yeah. if your character couldn't really use shuffling, you were out. in that sense, yes, falco and marth did play similarly. falco was able to approach with shl'ing and pillar, and marth was able to pull off completely unreasonable fair combos, but that's not what i'm talking about. every character had their own thing they could do, but it all came back to who could use their aerial game on the ground the best. looking at that, looking at how every match was grabbing and shuffling nairs until one of you got caught, yes, you had to play the top characters in the same style. everybody had to use aggressive shuffling. i'm sorry, but that got boring.

Will more ATs be found? Yes, will they be perticularly useful? No they will sadly not. Many techniques being listed currently aren't really game changing that we've been searching for, "shell shifting"? That's not even an exploit, he's just obviously designed that way. Try moving like that to much and you'll prolly trip a lot though, that's a lot of stick movement and it IS slower. Maybe you didn't know but in Melee dashes could be crouch-cancled into any smash, this was much similar to wavedashing, but VERY slightly slower. That made a huge difference, so will this.

shellshifting's not an exploit? l-canceling had been around since smash64, something tells me they left that in on purpose. and the game designers even had a name for wavedashing, so that wasn't an exploit since they obviously knew about it. just because you're not jacking with the game's engine doesn't mean it's not an advanced technique.

B-sticking? Cool, buttons do things they obviously shouldn't, this LITERALLY changes nothing as far as we know. As far as we know B-sticking does NOTHING you can't do without changing your c-stick to special. It makes RARing auto, easier, but not necessarilly better. Even the B thing with Lucas can be done without the b-stick.
Anywho, brawl is simply put, slow, and kinda boring. It is know where near as fast paste as melee and that is sad.

it's not so much b-sticking as it is the fact that b-sticking allows you to wavebounce. it's wavebouncing that i'm excited about. and yes, it DOES change things. this technique makes marth practically unapproachable up close. are you trying to tell me that giving marth an extreme defensive game like this changes nothing?

i have no idea where this idea that brawl is slower than melee game from. from the videos i've watched online, everybody seems to be finishing their matches in about the same time. sure, we can't really move as erratically in brawl as we could in melee... but from what i can see, everything is getting done in about the same amount of time. something tells me this "brawl is slower" nonsense came from a bunch of whiners who were upset that they couldn't jerk their character around the screen like an old person having a heart attack.

brawl is a new game. i mean, honestly, there have been games slower than melee before, and there are games faster than melee. have you ever heard of a game called "gunz"? at the highest level of play, you were pressing about 7 keys PER SECOND for periods of time longer than any melee match. nothing in melee even comes close to that kind of speed. shuffling falco's aerials for eight minutes couldn't get you to the level of technical demand required to complete (or even win) a fifteen round duel in gunz, and there's probably some game out there that makes gunz look like chess.

brawl is a new game. was soul calibur 2 or tekken tag tournament bad because it was slower than melee? was melee a bad game because it's slower than a whole hell of a lot of games before it? the answer to both of those questions is no. brawl being slower than melee, in the grand scheme of things, is a completely worthless and fruitless complaint to have about the game.

brawl is a new game.

 

[Nobie]

Many techniques being listed currently aren't really game changing that we've been searching for, "shell shifting"? That's not even an exploit, he's just obviously designed that way. Try moving like that to much and you'll prolly trip a lot though, that's a lot of stick movement and it IS slower. Maybe you didn't know but in Melee dashes could be crouch-cancled into any smash, this was much similar to wavedashing, but VERY slightly slower. That made a huge difference, so will this.

So, what you seem to be saying is that a technique cannot be called an advanced technique unless it is an "exploit," something unintended by the game designer. You have invalidated "shell shifting" because he's just "designed that way."

What is this, are we trying to find out what Sakurai and his design team have done WRONG? Is that the only place you can look for so-called advanced techniques?

Well heck, I just got this rare ultra super alpha beta omega supreme edition of Smash Bros Brawl that no one else does. And with it came a note signed by Sakurai telling me that Wavedash is in the game, and it's as simple as hitting attack and special and a direction at the same time!

But wait, it was intended! It can't possibly be an exploit!

How many things can we discount based on the fact that they weren't intended? How about Snake and Falco's ability to do a running attack and cancel it immediately into an up smash? As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), they're the only ones who can do it. Maybe it was intended, maybe not. If it was, what's wrong with successful techniques being INTENDED by the creators? This isn't Super Let's One-Up Sakurai Bros.

Why do you even want the game to CHANGE SIGNIFICANTLY VIA ADVANCED TECHNIQUES? What's wrong with the game in front of you? What games have you played where the core gameplay shifted from the original concept to such a great extent? I doubt Melee even falls into this category.

All it looks like is that you're searching for exploits which will make Brawl more like Melee, because Melee is some invincible super game in your eyes.

 

[Garde]

Nobie, what people are looking for is something that will easily allow people to distinguish competitive players from casual players. In most 2d fighting games, being able to perform large damage combos, parrying, tech traps, etc. are what make good players noticeably more skilled than casual players. Of course, a lot of advanced techniques that have HUGE effects on the meta game like kara'ing and roll cancelling are often overlooked by an untrained eye. I think a lot of the people here are looking for something like LCing again that will help them become noticeably better than a casual player, even to an untrained eye.

In SSB64, it was rare to get more than 4 consecutive attacks (not hits) on an opponent before they could retaliate or were knocked too far away. But people that ZCed in that game were obviously far faster than other players. In Melee, a bunch of characters got the ability to do fairly complex and long combos. LCing and WDing helped extend those combos, as well as a bunch of character specific tricks. It was pretty easy to see that someone pillaring or shine comboing people with Falco/Fox had a lot of technical skill. Everything used by those characters in Melee and SSB64 weren't exploits, they were purposefully put into the game, but it was how they used those abilities in ways the programmers and casual players didn't imagine that set them a league apart. In Brawl, it is considerably harder to combo again, just like in SSB64, except KOs happen at % comparable to Melee (often times higher with some of the weaker characters). This game relies a lot more on faking opponents out and punishing them than rushing them down with safe offensive manuevers (since many offensive options aren't nearly as safe as they used to be). A lot of people never really spent time on developing solid mind games to win the game for them in Melee, and so this game feels like a let down for people expecting Melee 2: Faster and More Technical. I guess this game is closer to 3S in the sense that it is very mind game oriented.

I honestly like Brawl a lot as it is. I've always loved delving into a few characters and learning obscure things and innovative uses for them.

Vulgar, I don't particularly care whether or not some universal AT is discovered. If you read my first post, at the end I said I felt a bunch of the universal ATs plagued the play styles of a lot of the characters in Melee (almost every character had to SHFFL to be effective, for instance), I was merely trying to give you a better understanding for what other people are complaining about. I'm perfectly fine with how Brawl is now and love it to death.

As for the speed thing. Characters move slower overall (though several moves come out faster now for certain characters), but the game is definitely still running at the same speed. It's just that LCing doesn't exist so you can't make characters move faster than normal anymore and FFing is floatier, which makes the game feel slower. Vulgar has a point, though. 4 stock matches are taking around the same amount of time, and it's even harder to KO people now (overall, characters like Ike are obviously exempt from this), how could the game be slower if that's the case?

 

[MartinGM1983]

MartinGM, Brawl's engine is the Havok (or Havoc, not sure on the spelling) engine. It is a completely reworked engine and is NOT the same as Melee's (though I'm sure they recycled some pieces of Melee's engine). Physics are also part of a game engine, in fact, any general aspect of game that can be shown to be true for the majority of characters/players is often a part of the engine (jumping, running, shielding, throwing, etc.). Yes, the platform may essentially be the same (Wii and GCN are practically identical in hardware capabilities), but the engine on which the game runs is not, and in fact they are very different (which is why many ATs from Melee are no longer present, NOT just SHFFLing and LCing, though they are the most prominent).

Good post, but I'm not seeing what your pointing out. I understand that the engine's are different ( I'm sure alot more than I know as well... ), but what I was referring to was the jump from the 64 to melee engine. That was a totally different work of art.

The jump from Brawl to Melee isn't as large a leap. They have recycled many a point; I just think that alot of the Melee gamers fail to see that Brawl, itself, is a new game.

The developer's understood what was happening with the explotations of animation glitches and shortcomings and decided they gave the avid smasher a very, very large edge in terms of competition. What I don't understand is how the creators of Smash Brother's can claim the games fame lies in friendly competition and shouldn't have a ladder ranking system, while toning down the competitive edge we Melee players should have retained. The simple fact is that a fighting game relies on competition and rank should be taken into consideration. Why devolve the game now?

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Let's look at another competitive fighter .. Street Fighter 3rd Strike
the game had no exploitable "AT" for every character to better their game
it was up to the player and what they knew about their character to play against other players

there was kara canceling which helped Q Garb range and chung lee's a lot.


The problem with brawl is the level of play form a skilled player to noob is still very small if a noob wanted to he can learn most "techs" about his main in about 1-2 days but in melee it would take years to learn how to master the techs and skills in the game thus meaning there isnt that much depth in learning brawl.

 

[Pikklz]

The developer's understood what was happening with the explotations of animation glitches and shortcomings and decided they gave the avid smasher a very, very large edge in terms of competition. What I don't understand is how the creators of Smash Brother's can claim the games fame lies in friendly competition and shouldn't have a ladder ranking system, while toning down the competitive edge we Melee players should have retained. The simple fact is that a fighting game relies on competition and rank should be taken into consideration. Why devolve the game now?

The reason that they 'devolved the game' and 'toned down the competitive edge' is simply because games are first and foremost, profit makers. Why should the company care what a small minority of the consumers think when they can appeal to the majority and make the most money possible? Why doesn't Apple overclock all of its products and sell them primarily to hardcore gamers/hackers/programmers? Because they wouldn't make as much money as if they sold to everyday businessmen, students, and moms, the way they do now.

A quick google search of "brawl sales" comes up with a number of pages talking about how brawl is so successful, with over a million copies sold in Japan within two weeks. Now, almost two months and a US release later, there are bound to be two million copies sold. Looking at SWF, there are about a hundred thousand members. If everyone is willing to buy twenty copies of brawl, then I'm sure the developers would consider making it super competitive. Until then, accept what you have and learn to beat all the noobs without a major tactical advantage. By complaining that there is no major dividing tactic, you effectively imply that you can't win without it. Shouldn't it show more skill to beat them at their own campy game than with what some may consider a tactical crutch?

edit: blah, used the word tactic(al) too much

 

[MartinGM1983]

The reason that they 'devolved the game' and 'toned down the competitive edge' is simply because games are first and foremost, profit makers. Why should the company care what a small minority of the consumers think when they can appeal to the majority and make the most money possible? Why doesn't Apple overclock all of its products and sell them primarily to hardcore gamers/hackers/programmers? Because they wouldn't make as much money as if they sold to everyday businessmen, students, and moms, the way they do now.

A quick google search of "brawl sales" comes up with a number of pages talking about how brawl is so successful, with over a million copies sold in Japan within two weeks. Now, almost two months and a US release later, there are bound to be two million copies sold. Looking at SWF, there are about a hundred thousand members. If everyone is willing to buy twenty copies of brawl, then I'm sure the developers would consider making it super competitive. Until then, accept what you have and learn to beat all the noobs without a major tactical advantage. By complaining that there is no major dividing tactic, you effectively imply that you can't win without it. Shouldn't it show more skill to beat them at their own campy game than with what some may consider a tactical crutch?

edit: blah, used the word tactic(al) too much

Sadly, you are correct about the profit scenario. But the developers logic fails terribly when taken into consideration.

Why create a game that focuses on competition and ranking amongst other gamers while seemingly denouncing the competitive factor? If that was the sole case, take away the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ranks after each match and simply display GREAT JOB GUYS! YOU JUST PLAYED ANOTHER FUN GAME! It simply make no sense.

I also understand that Nintendo would like to level the playing field for all of it's gamers, but seriously, who plays Smash Brothers? The gamers that want to win through direct competition. Smash Brother's is not Mario Galaxy. If gamers want a carefree experience, play Mario Galaxy and just run around. Have fun. But if you want to follow Nintendo's legacy and pay respects to their characters while supporting them, give the avid, hardcore gamers some type of acknowledgment.

Give us the chance to excel, give us a ladder system, and stop giving into paranoid preventative online measures. The information era has evolved and children will be most undoubtedly exposed to lewd experiences before they own a Wii. Child protective measures are easily installed. Let us, the gamer, connect with other's. We want the experiences; not the headaches.

 

[Professor Smash Attack]

MartinGM, I think the competitive audience for Smash is way smaller than you think. I'm thinking a majority of the already million+sales of this game were for kids or casual players. Also, even MARIO PARTY, pretty much the least skill-based game ever(land on a lot of blue spaces because your random dice number let you? FREE STAR!) has 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Your logic doesn't add up.

They're adding to the fun factor. Or rather, what MOST people call fun. Most people don't think competitive smash is fun.

 

[MartinGM1983]

MartinGM, I think the competitive audience for Smash is way smaller than you think. I'm thinking a majority of the already million+sales of this game were for kids or casual players. Also, even MARIO PARTY, pretty much the least skill-based game ever(land on a lot of blue spaces because your random dice number let you? FREE STAR!) has 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Your logic doesn't add up.

They're adding to the fun factor. Or rather, what MOST people call fun. Most people don't think competitive smash is fun.

Explain how my logic is flawed please ^^;

You create a fighting game that revolves around placement after your performance through relative ranking; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. If the developer's seriously think that real competition based on ranking would create a flaw in the overall game, why even include it?

I feel your comparison of games is a tad off; Mario Party revolves around a random happenings ( dice rolls, etc...), yet SSBB does not. It is determined in real-time combat. They did include the tripping factor, which is heavily frowned upon by almost every poster on this board along with avid Brawler's and Melee lover's alike.

And your response please