If, Then! : How to fight MK with Marth, A situational Guide

[Darxmarth23]

Wow. You post this right after I retired from competitive brawl in mid MO....

I lost to the best Mks in mid MO......

Lolz Nice read.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Nice thread Pierce, I read a few things I didn't really think about.

I think that you can't really learn ALL the if-thens from a thread like this though. Every Marth main should have a friend who mains MK lawl. Or force their mother to spawn an MK main so they can have a brother who plays MK like Pierce

 

[Ayen]

Roy_R combo is effective on MK? Or the MK can DI?

 

[Albert.]

Or force their mother to spawn an MK main so they can have a brother who plays MK like Pierce

LOL I know what you mean

nice use of the word "spawn"
I am an only child

 

[∫unk]

lmao dan didn't you tell me you're going falco vs mk now?

dan's answer: "doesn't mean you can't win with marth"

but you cant beat any high level mk's consistently due to the amount of pro play required on marth's part + different styles (as you said yourself)

dan's answer: "well thats why i play falco now"

so this is for winning one set versus mk? who only plays one mk in tournament nowadays?

keep in mind i agree with most of what you say but in the end.... tournament results **** you countering on a theoretical level

 

[feardragon64]

Junk: Well would it be fair to say that the hope of the discussion is that you can increase the odds of winning with more intelligent play? Not to say you're likely to win, just more likely to win if it's outright said that you can do x to counter y. People might do x to counter y more often. If it works, it increases the odds of winning. If it doesn't, pretty much stays the same. I see what you're saying and it's good to know, but it's not a reason not to discuss it. =\

Although I totally agree actual play/practice > discussion.

 

[∫unk]

i think the bottom line is that yes you can cover these options but in the end they still win... so why bother? so you get as far as possible with a high tier character? why not just increase your chance of winning and actually play a high tier that has tournament results backing up minor success versus mk

you have to have extreme marth pride or something... i just dont really see the reasoning behind it

but i dont think you read my post very carefully so i'll put it in bold... as i said i agree with what pierce said and i never thought this thread is bad it's always good to know your options

 

[_Kadaj_]

Nice read for the most part..... I havent finished yet

 

[Paradigm]

i think the bottom line is that yes you can cover these options but in the end they still win... so why bother?

Consider:
You know your opponent mains Falco from watching other games he's played. You go Marth and win the first round. He counter picks to a Falco-happy stage, you stay Marth. He pulls out MK. It's not his main so if you know the match well enough you've got a good chance.

Such scenarios are quite common to see in the tournies I've been to. This has not happened to me exactly (I just picked up Marth somewhat recently), but a similar situation has happened with another character triangle and knowing the disadvantaged-matchup won the match for me. This knowledge is quite useful for tourney play, even if the matchup leans heavily in MK's favor.

 

[Pierce7d]

lmao dan didn't you tell me you're going falco vs mk now?

dan's answer: "doesn't mean you can't win with marth"

but you cant beat any high level mk's consistently due to the amount of pro play required on marth's part + different styles (as you said yourself)

dan's answer: "well thats why i play falco now"

so this is for winning one set versus mk? who only plays one mk in tournament nowadays?

keep in mind i agree with most of what you say but in the end.... tournament results **** you countering on a theoretical level

I can beat a large majority of MKs in this country, and can beat all in my region with the exception of M2k. HOWEVER, this requires a severe amount of brain-power, fast decisions, and developing my own metagame so the MKs cannot keep up with me. MINDGAMES exist in Brawl, and I happen to be good at them.

That being said, it is mentally stressful to fight a large number of top level MKs back to back. Dealing with DMBrandon, Inui, Shadow, Ksizzle, Anti, and other wannabe's, on top of having to fight other top level players that don't use MK, the toll on my mind is severe. Because of this, I will sometimes use Falco, because I have trained my Falco extremely well (though it can still improve) and am good at that match-up now. Since there are no top level Falco players in this region (except Keitaro, and no offense to him, but he simply not as smart as me), Falco can often catch opponent's off guard with an unfamiliar match-up, which they are unsure of how to deal with. More importantly, Falco's game is extremely linear, and easy for my mind to cope with when I am mentally fatigued. This allows me a chance to recooperate.

A large part of winning with Marth vs. MK is learning your opponent's patterns. Many know that I was able to beat Shadow last weekend. However, I failed to then defeat DmBrandon immediately afterwards. Part of the reason this is, is because DM and Shadow, as well as most of the MKs here, have their own preferences and play styles. MK can cope very easily with Marth's pressure unlike most characters. Furthermore, he has a plethora of options at his disposal. To win, I MUST recognize which options are favorable to the MK at hand, and then pick the correct punishment options. I need to know how MKs like to recover (M2k likes Dimension Cape, Shadow likes Tornado, Brandon likes Drill Rush, Inui favors Shuttle Loop.) I need to know who favors Nair when jumping out of shield, and who favors Dair. I need to know who will go for the greedy SL gimps (Shadow, Ksizzle, and DMBrandon) and who will not, so I can judge whether airdodging is necessary. I need to know who favors what sequences after dtilt, or ftilt, and when they like to grab. I need to know how they like to end tornado, so I can determine whether to chase, or to wait, or to upB, or any method of appropriate punishment. I need to know who likes to roll away, so I can chase, or who likes to spot dodge, so I can dancing blade, or who likes to roll behind me, so I can use tipper dsmash to end a stock, or use reverse Dancing Blade.

SOOOOOOO many habits and patterns to remember, makes it difficult to win in a disadvantageous match-up, but I have a powerful mind, and can do it. However, to FORGET everything about a MK I just defeated, and then wipe my mind to immediately adjust to a new top level MK in later rounds is EXTREMELY strenuous, exhausting, and fatiguing, not to mention just straight up difficult. For this reason, I now have learned to simply analyze my mental state. It is foolish to try and play at top speed and power, AND employ mindgames when I am tired and handicapped by false conditioning from previous matches.

However, my Falco is also capable of fighting top level MKs. For that reason, when my mind is worn out, and my Marth is exhausted, I can rest him by switching out to a very simply character, who I can camp with, and boxing my opponent and racking up lots of damage is very small, easily adjustable sequences, that allow me to relax, and help me forget stuff I had to remember with Marth. It refreshes my mind, and gives me and Marth a chance to rest. This will help me advance into later rounds.

Spoiler

Pikachu, return! GOOOO SQUIRTLE!!!

 

[Emblem Lord]

This isn't the problem. The problem is..wtf happens when MK gains ground? Yeah Marth can go toe to toe at neutral fairly well mostly cuz of DB and other good punishers and countering nado but once MK gains momentum..then what?

And Keitaro isn't a high level player. Are you on crack?

And the fact you are so exhausted when fighting good MK's further proves how hard this match is for Marth. Beating weaker opponents means little. When you fight opponents who are strong and they use MK you admit that it overwhelms you simply because you need to COMPLETELY outplay your opponent.

The very definition of a counter match-up.

60/40 my ***.

 

[Albert.]

Whenever Emblem Lord posts these days I always feel such a bright light of optimism shining down.

 

[Pierce7d]

This isn't the problem. The problem is..wtf happens when MK gains ground? Yeah Marth can go toe to toe at neutral fairly well mostly cuz of DB and other good punishers and countering nado but once MK gains momentum..then what?

And Keitaro isn't a high level player. Are you on crack?

And the fact you are so exhausted when fighting good MK's further proves how hard this match is for Marth. Beating weaker opponents means little. When you fight opponents who are strong and they use MK you admit that it overwhelms you simply because you need to COMPLETELY outplay your opponent.

The very definition of a counter match-up.

60/40 my ***.

lol, I know Keitaro isn't a top player, he's simply the highest ranked Falco in New Jersey, because there are like three, and none of them are brilliant. The one in my crew is overly childish and flashy, Keitaro is just unsafe and predictable, and K.I.D. is simply inexperienced and not well trained. That being said, my Falco is of higher level intellect, and knows strategies that can catch players off guard.

Yes, MK is a counter match-up. I believe we have him listed as 65-35. Dumb dash grab is dumb.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Hey thanks, was a good read . Good job.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Man, it's apparent that you guys work harder and smarter at your important matchups than other character boards. Much respect.

 

[Pierce7d]

Haha, thanks Ether. Marth's pride ourselves on the maintainance/organization of an excellently run board, so that was probably the best compliment you could give us.

 

[Tennet]

Loving this thread Pierce.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Hey, Keitaro has stepped it up a lot. He took a game off Judge's MK at APEX and iirc almost won the set.

 

[Pierce7d]

Hey, Keitaro has stepped it up a lot. He took a game off Judge's MK at APEX and iirc almost won the set.

I never said Keitaro was bad. I was simply explaining that he's not considered a top level player. When other players are talking about Falcos in other regions, his name generally doesn't pop up as far as I know. Also, I beat Judge in tourney before I believe.

 

[KOS-MOS]

Great read Pierce7d and I learned a lot! :D

I know this matchup is supposed to be hard but I'm sure I'll find a way around it LOL. I'll see how my marth does this weekend at Last3.

 

[OmegaXF]

Wow, exceptionally clever. I don't believe that throwing releases the jacket, but grab release certainly does not. So grab release to DB1 to double jump spike with the jacket on. If the opponent MK has the % to die from it, it's worth attempting . . .

That is like the most sex I've seen in this thread. Well it's an idea. But I love the thread Pierce spammed sex

 

[teh_spamerer]

If, Then!: A guide on how to fight Marth

If the other player selected Marth
THEN select Meta

Congratulations! This game's winner is

Seriously though, you left out tons of Meta's options in most of the cases :/. One example

They WILL either A) get hit, B) airdodge, then get hit C) Tornado, then get hit.

Depending on where you are, you can side/down b as well and you didn't talk at all about platforms or going for the ledge when they're above you.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

LMFAO spam's posts are so great

 

[Pierce7d]

You're right. I left out a lot of stuff, because, well there's lots of reasons but the number 1 reason is that I don't feel like spelling out the entire algorithm of vs. MK. Seriously Spam, you honestly think that I was under the impression that I had covered ALL of MK's options? MK has too many options to cover in a guide and still pretend that I have a life. Plus, no one would read or remember it. Give me a break, people also need to learn through common sense, experience, etc.

Also, I beat MK with Marth a lot

 

[Junk DGH]

d@mn calm down dan

have ur baby girl email u up

<3

 

[clowsui]

LOL jun how do u know whether he's gotten into contact w/ her?

in other news spam should start playing brawl again...only with marth

 

[Steel]

why would you want spam to endure such misery

 

[Junk DGH]

about 'that'... i know as much as pierce knows about the marth versus metaknight matchup

 

[teh_spamerer]

Seriously Spam, you honestly think that I was under the impression that I had covered ALL of MK's options?

Yes.

MK has too many options to cover in a guide and still pretend that I have a life. Plus, no one would read or remember it. Give me a break, people also need to learn through common sense, experience, etc.

So...you decided to write a guide that covers the smallest fraction of what you actually need to know in an extremely difficult matchup instead? That seems like more of a waste of time . Besides you just admitted that you're only pretending to have a life in the first place, might as well come clean and accept you don't with a fully fledged guide

See you Saturday Pierce

 

[Steel]

spams posts increase in power 100 fold whenever he posts that pichu

 

[clowsui]

holy f*** spam just ***** the **** out of pierce

 

[∫unk]

wow spam ***** really ****in hard even in his posts

 

[Pierce7d]

Yes.



So...you decided to write a guide that covers the smallest fraction of what you actually need to know in an extremely difficult matchup instead? That seems like more of a waste of time . Besides you just admitted that you're only pretending to have a life in the first place, might as well come clean and accept you don't with a fully fledged guide

See you Saturday Pierce

So it's like that huh? Okay, I see how it is. You've won this battle, but I'll keep this in mind.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

about 'that'... i know as much as pierce knows about the marth versus metaknight matchup

for some reason, i disagree with this thoroughly

 

[Junk DGH]

thats the point neo either way you think about it i win

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I can't believe i sat down and actually read this, i dont even play marth, but it sure gave me some ideas with fox XDXDXD thank you pierce

 

[Pierce7d]

I can't believe i sat down and actually read this, i dont even play marth, but it sure gave me some ideas with fox XDXDXD thank you pierce

Haha, thanks. And FAWK YOU SPAM. I just reread that guide. It's very good. Still, I might as well fill in more **** since you're *****ing.

DI away after any throw. If it was Dthrow, DI away and Fair with the Cstick. Never DI a dthrow up, or you will get comboed. Sometimes, a MK may use Tornado, or a Dash Dance to try to cause you to whiff a fair, so pay close attention.

Challenge with juggle traps with Fair, save your double jump in the air and don't airdodge first, because Nair is more painful than Uair, and if you airdodge, you will get Naired. FF Fair and Dancing Blade stall, along with b reversal shield breaker to try and escape juggle traps. Jump around on platforms until you can land safely on the ground. Airdodge outward and then weave in when afraid of getting hit by a Shuttle Loop Gimp.

Ledgejump is your best option from the ledge (not ledgehop, you don't want to get gimped out of your second jump, only use this if MK is open or you have room), but it should be mixed in with Standing a lot. If MK is standing very close to the edge then fall away Fair and then UpB. When recovering, drop low. If MK grabs the edge then Dancing Blade to stall, then UpB him off. If he doesn't, just quickly grab it with UpB. If MK hits your shield with Dsmash then Dancing Blade. If you DI to the top corner of the screen, one mindgame is to being charging shieldbreaker, but let it go before it's fully released, so the MK will try to intercept you in the air and Dair or Nair. Then since you won't propel forward, they already are flying high, and mindgame them by Fast Falling and UpBing to the edge.

Use a lot of empty SHs and Falling Fair when MK or his shield is in range. Mix up Dtilt, Jab, and Grab after you're Fair is shielded, but try not to get Shuttle Looped out of shield. If MK dashes up and shields after you jumped then retreating Fair or airdodge back.

Try to control the center of the stage a lot, as you can score damage off of pushing MK to the edge and it's hard to land a kill with MK when you're opponent is in the center. If MK tries to ledgehop, you should be out of range for all aerials, so he will probably airdodge. Punish with Dancing Blade. Take an extra step back on Yoshi's, and never shield against MK at the edge. If he uses tornado then just counter, fsmash, or retreating Usmash. Fsmash a whiffed Fair if you're fast enough

If MK glides at you, periodically mix in jab. It should clash if done properly, or hit MK otherwise. This can give you a nice bit of frame advantage.

If MK is gliding towards the edge, from high or low, and you are on stage, just give him space. He has good options from here.

If MK is platform pressuring you, and uses Uairs or Nair, and peaks above the platform, Dolphin Slash, then fast fall and land quickly.

Use Bair in a juggle trap first, it's hitbox reaches exceptionally far and high. If it connects, good. If MK airdodges, then Uair will connect. This trap is very godly. Double Jump Uair will sometimes catch a Dair camping MK off guard (Uair outranges MKs Dair). Use Dancing Blade if you can punish an airdodge into the ground. If you can't, use a grab or a pivot grab.

If MK is going to land on a platform in front of you, jumping and charging Shieldbreaker is a good idea. He might shield, in which case you can damage or break it. It also covers a good deal of the platform while you approach, and it beats tornado. If he falls through the platform, you can just charge it and hit him when he hits the ground. This might be hard to understand without seeing it.

If you get into a combo, make sure you DI. Generally, you want to DI hard left or right, but against moves with heavy knockback when you're at higher percentages, you should DI Up and towards the stage. This is crucial, and will help you live for much longer.

If MK hits you with first hit of ftilt, DI Up and away. NEVER airdodge, some MKs try to then use Dsmash to punish. If you trip from a dtilt, roll towards MK if he starts dashing towards you (they almost always will, as any other option will let you escape other wise).

If you need a quick kill and MK is above 130 percent, don't forget frame 6 dsmash. Try not to guess with this move though, as it's very laggy. It's great for punishing a perfected shielded or spot dodged attack, or pivot dsmash to punish a Dash attack that crossed up when you shielded or a whiffed grab after you spot dodge (which you shouldn't really have done, but it happens in the heat of the battle, and if you really called out that grab then there you go.)

If MK is on a platform in front of you and too far to aerial, try ftilt. This is probably the only time to use ftilt unless you've got a clean tipper ftilt for the kill. Dsmash, jab, or Utilt cover most other things you'd want to ftilt for.

Mix in shield breaker intelligently, especially when MK is around 50%. Before using shieldbreaker, you should try to condition your opponents by minimizing grab usage, and try to weaken their shield first.

Pay attention to the slopes you are landing on, always. They will either mess up your spacing, or aid it or aid your retreat or cross-up.

 

[Remzi]

Haha, thanks. And FAWK YOU SPAM. I just reread that guide. It's very good. What would YOU add to it?

The guide actually does an excellent job of fulfilling it's purpose. This is a "Situational Guide." This is not a substitute for months of agonizing experience against that ****** ****er.

Hell, I like it anyways.

 

[Pierce7d]

Yeah, well I expanded it

 

[Albert.]

wow just read all of it, good stuff, You might want to add it to the OP if you haven't already.