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Important: Samus Vs Jiggs Matchup

Mars-

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Messages
2,530
Location
Chicago area
Lol, speaking of SWDing, I saw ihavespaceballs doing some phanna moves at SMYM.

what, we finally have discussion here and you're going to complain about it? tsk tsk ;p
I was going to try saying something clever while referring too you by your old account name, but I forgot your old account name :(
 

Kochiha Ichihara

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Messages
143
Location
Naperville, IL
Doesn't work


Please explain how you keep puff on the ground? Wouldn't that require not hitting her?


A good jiggs will hit you even if you are spacing perfectly.
You really like to rip on me, don't you?

1. You can't CONSTANTLY upB out of shield; in fact, sometimes just pulling it off out of nowhere is best; they can tell what you're doing if you shield that much.

2. You keep Jiggs on the ground by (and get this, because this is totally going to blow your mind) staying on the ground.

3. If Jiggs is still hitting you, you're not spacing correctly let alone perfectly.
 

ihavespaceblondes

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
4,229
Location
Memphis, TN
I don't like organizing my thoughts unless I get graded on it or paid for it. So random stream of consciousness go:

Ban FD. Jiggs has full aerial control there, and you can really only move on the ground. If she gets that extra axis of movement to work with and you don't, the matchup goes from bad to terrible.

Ok, now you're on a stage besides FD (hopefully Yoshi's, Fountain, or BF). Now you need to learn to move around the stage as fast and as far and as accurately as possible. I do this regardless of matchup because that's how I like to play, but in this case I just don't see how you can win otherwise. You need to be able to be able to waveland off a platform, fastfall under Jiggs as she tries to fair you, and double jump uair from below. You need to be able to full jump uair, and waveland across a platform to catch up and fsmash before the pressure game resets back to neutral (because neutral = in jiggs favor). You need to be able to waveland off a top platform, off the side platform, back onto the top platform, and fall of with a fastfalled bair as Jiggs floats towards you. How situational are any of these? Extremely, but you need to be able to know and consistently do anything Samus can physically do on all the neutrals, so when you see an opening or the potential for an opening you can get there and insert your hitboxes wherever you think Jiggs is going. When the puffball constantly has the option to hover around basically anywhere and place her stupidly quick, stupidly positionable, stupidly powerful aerials all over the place, you NEED to be able to see and realize gaps without even really thinking about it.

Talking about Jiggs fair or bair or nair and how to "beat it" is worthless because those aren't just one move each. Retreating and falling fairs that don't hit the ground (allowing for the possibility of a double jump), full jump fairs when moving forward, shorthop fairs that move forward and then back slightly, rising retreating fairs that give Jiggs the option to land on a platform, those are all completely different attacks with vastly different options for you. Make sure you aren't seeing a fair and thinking "Oh yeah I know how to deal with that" and then not learning when you find that it's different and your strategy needs to be different as well.

Missiles are not for hitting Jiggs. Missiles are for forcing her to move higher, shield, or throw out an aerial, all of which will hopefully give you an opening or a positioning advantage. Let's look at those options and what you can do about them:
Shield: You can grab -> dthrow -> charge shot or nair. You can also run up and wait/shield to see if you can figure out any kind of pattern for when you force the opponent to shield. Like, do they know the missile doesn't have enough shield stun to lock them in for the grab, and buffer a roll or spot dodge to avoid it? If so, what way do they roll? Remember it, and try to take advantage of it later when you need that kill (shoot a missile, run up the shield, WD to where they'll probably roll and dsmash, for example)
Midair jump over the missile: Anytime Jiggs is higher than full hop height (but low enough to hit), you should attempt to get under her and uair through her soft pink underbelly. In my experience, that and wd back utilt are the main ways to get hits in.
Aerial through the missile: This is the main strat I see from good Jiggs, because it's really easy to destroy missiles with her brokeass hitboxes, and they can hit you to if you're following the missile too closely. Usually they'll use fair or bair (sometimes nair). When they do this, congrats, you've forced Jiggs to do an aerial in a place where you weren't. Now you have to figure out what to do to punish that (very small) lag. If he used a rising aerial, you can try to get underneath and catch him with the top part of the utilt, jump up and fair, or jump from below and uair. If it's KO percent time, you can even try for a nair. If he falls through the missile with an aerial, and you know where he's going to land, they you're free to place any long Samus hitbox at his landing spot at your discretion. KO percent? Try an f or dsmash. Low percent and you need to do some damage? Utilt should lock him in place on the ground, so you can dtilt to uair whatever you usually do when an utilt locks an opponent in place. Mid percent utilt is probably the best choice too, because it should bounce him up low enough for you to get a nair or something in.

Actually in general utilt is so good in this matchup. There's like no lag after it, Samus' legs are crazy long, it hits so far above you, it's just great overall. Try wding under a full jumping Jiggs and turn around utilt, find the spots where it works, it's kinda hard to describe when unless you've seen it.

On recovering... Jiggs will go out there and smack you. So you need to have full control over your recovery options. Full DI on bomb jumps (mix up which way you hover around too); save your double jump as long as possible, sometimes you can use it to go under the Jiggs and aerial her from below, buying you some time; airdodge through attacks and grapple when you can; make sure you DI straight up if they manage to hit you so you'll have more vertical room to try again (and also so you'll live); if he stays on the stage, recover low to wall jump -> turn around missle is a personal favorite of mine, it can get edgeguarders away from the edge long enough for you to grab the ledge; upB from below through Jiggs can knock him away, use that sometimes. Generally though, never recover the same way twice, Jiggs has way more control out there than you, so you need to be able to adapt on the fly with as many options as possible. Also as a general rule never go for a dair or a nair or a fair while you're out there. It's just not worth it, it's not safe, Jiggs with good spacing will just hit you.

When you have a shielding Jiggs up close... Don't smash attack. Don't dash attack. Don't downtilt. SPACE PERFECTLY your ftilts and utilts and jabs (and jab cancels). One thing that I've had work is (spaced!) jab on the shield to wavedash back fsmash, but that was on a "jump out of shield ASAP" happy Jiggs player. Learn what this specific Jiggs does to get away from shield pressure and try to predict and abuse that.

All of that is weird, oddly specific snippits of info that may or may not help you. Sorry if it doesn't, and correct me if you see something blatantly wrong.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
858
Location
PWN
can u tel how do u baet mago> plz






thanks for the tips. i'll try and remember them next time. even though the matchup sounds hopeless when you described it. "yeah, basically, no fun, and work your hardest, and you might have a chance of payoff."

edit: of course that just makes me want to beat her even more badly heh
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
1,730
Location
@ the barnyard
do you even play competitive melee or you just write theory books with unfathomable scenarios?

I was loling pretty hard at your roy's advice already, but when I stepped in here and noticed you were suggesting using SWD, that made my day.
Competitive with Fox and Doc.

But you are right most of my suggestions are hard to produce, but isn't that the way effective techniques that come to date are created?

I mean Ken in SSB 64 wanted to score an instant KO with a single U-air with CF, then that translated into Ken Combo.

Now I'm not saying my suggestions would be nearly as amazing, but I find that it could leave room for discussion that could translate into more practical suggestions.

Like a SWD across the stage into a U-Smash sounds far fetched, but maybe someone could figure that a WD'ed and spaced U-Smash could yield some possibilities.

You're probably way better than me as far as experience and knowledge goes, but hey, it doesn't hurt to imagine.
 

The Alpha Gundam

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,759
Location
(Columbus,Ga)
I don't like organizing my thoughts unless I get graded on it or paid for it. So random stream of consciousness go:

Ban FD. Jiggs has full aerial control there, and you can really only move on the ground. If she gets that extra axis of movement to work with and you don't, the matchup goes from bad to terrible.

Ok, now you're on a stage besides FD (hopefully Yoshi's, Fountain, or BF). Now you need to learn to move around the stage as fast and as far and as accurately as possible. I do this regardless of matchup because that's how I like to play, but in this case I just don't see how you can win otherwise. You need to be able to be able to waveland off a platform, fastfall under Jiggs as she tries to fair you, and double jump uair from below. You need to be able to full jump uair, and waveland across a platform to catch up and fsmash before the pressure game resets back to neutral (because neutral = in jiggs favor). You need to be able to waveland off a top platform, off the side platform, back onto the top platform, and fall of with a fastfalled bair as Jiggs floats towards you. How situational are any of these? Extremely, but you need to be able to know and consistently do anything Samus can physically do on all the neutrals, so when you see an opening or the potential for an opening you can get there and insert your hitboxes wherever you think Jiggs is going. When the puffball constantly has the option to hover around basically anywhere and place her stupidly quick, stupidly positionable, stupidly powerful aerials all over the place, you NEED to be able to see and realize gaps without even really thinking about it.

Talking about Jiggs fair or bair or nair and how to "beat it" is worthless because those aren't just one move each. Retreating and falling fairs that don't hit the ground (allowing for the possibility of a double jump), full jump fairs when moving forward, shorthop fairs that move forward and then back slightly, rising retreating fairs that give Jiggs the option to land on a platform, those are all completely different attacks with vastly different options for you. Make sure you aren't seeing a fair and thinking "Oh yeah I know how to deal with that" and then not learning when you find that it's different and your strategy needs to be different as well.

Missiles are not for hitting Jiggs. Missiles are for forcing her to move higher, shield, or throw out an aerial, all of which will hopefully give you an opening or a positioning advantage. Let's look at those options and what you can do about them:
Shield: You can grab -> dthrow -> charge shot or nair. You can also run up and wait/shield to see if you can figure out any kind of pattern for when you force the opponent to shield. Like, do they know the missile doesn't have enough shield stun to lock them in for the grab, and buffer a roll or spot dodge to avoid it? If so, what way do they roll? Remember it, and try to take advantage of it later when you need that kill (shoot a missile, run up the shield, WD to where they'll probably roll and dsmash, for example)
Midair jump over the missile: Anytime Jiggs is higher than full hop height (but low enough to hit), you should attempt to get under her and uair through her soft pink underbelly. In my experience, that and wd back utilt are the main ways to get hits in.
Aerial through the missile: This is the main strat I see from good Jiggs, because it's really easy to destroy missiles with her brokeass hitboxes, and they can hit you to if you're following the missile too closely. Usually they'll use fair or bair (sometimes nair). When they do this, congrats, you've forced Jiggs to do an aerial in a place where you weren't. Now you have to figure out what to do to punish that (very small) lag. If he used a rising aerial, you can try to get underneath and catch him with the top part of the utilt, jump up and fair, or jump from below and uair. If it's KO percent time, you can even try for a nair. If he falls through the missile with an aerial, and you know where he's going to land, they you're free to place any long Samus hitbox at his landing spot at your discretion. KO percent? Try an f or dsmash. Low percent and you need to do some damage? Utilt should lock him in place on the ground, so you can dtilt to uair whatever you usually do when an utilt locks an opponent in place. Mid percent utilt is probably the best choice too, because it should bounce him up low enough for you to get a nair or something in.

Actually in general utilt is so good in this matchup. There's like no lag after it, Samus' legs are crazy long, it hits so far above you, it's just great overall. Try wding under a full jumping Jiggs and turn around utilt, find the spots where it works, it's kinda hard to describe when unless you've seen it.

On recovering... Jiggs will go out there and smack you. So you need to have full control over your recovery options. Full DI on bomb jumps (mix up which way you hover around too); save your double jump as long as possible, sometimes you can use it to go under the Jiggs and aerial her from below, buying you some time; airdodge through attacks and grapple when you can; make sure you DI straight up if they manage to hit you so you'll have more vertical room to try again (and also so you'll live); if he stays on the stage, recover low to wall jump -> turn around missle is a personal favorite of mine, it can get edgeguarders away from the edge long enough for you to grab the ledge; upB from below through Jiggs can knock him away, use that sometimes. Generally though, never recover the same way twice, Jiggs has way more control out there than you, so you need to be able to adapt on the fly with as many options as possible. Also as a general rule never go for a dair or a nair or a fair while you're out there. It's just not worth it, it's not safe, Jiggs with good spacing will just hit you.

When you have a shielding Jiggs up close... Don't smash attack. Don't dash attack. Don't downtilt. SPACE PERFECTLY your ftilts and utilts and jabs (and jab cancels). One thing that I've had work is (spaced!) jab on the shield to wavedash back fsmash, but that was on a "jump out of shield ASAP" happy Jiggs player. Learn what this specific Jiggs does to get away from shield pressure and try to predict and abuse that.

All of that is weird, oddly specific snippits of info that may or may not help you. Sorry if it doesn't, and correct me if you see something blatantly wrong.

Time to werck a wack *** jiggs player name soft :demon:
 

duals

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
299
Location
Sacramento
jiggs seems like a hard match up and everything has to be perfectly.....

spacing? limited move set? might as well go with someone else...haha....



how is everyone? haven't been on in a while....
 

The Alpha Gundam

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,759
Location
(Columbus,Ga)
jiggs seems like a hard match up and everything has to be perfectly.....

spacing? limited move set? might as well go with someone else...haha....



how is everyone? haven't been on in a while....

I'm salty cause Jiggs is a stupid character
Fine otherwise
you?
 

duals

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
299
Location
Sacramento

I'm salty cause Jiggs is a stupid JOKE
Fine otherwise
you?
fixd

i remember when i played melee nonstop and my friend plays marth and stuuuff...hes really good...first one out of our group of friends to get all techs down....any ways... I started to beat him when hes marth and then after a while... he was like "im a pull out my secret weapon zach, if you don't stop beating me" Im like "no p3ni5 plz...."

I beat him a couple more times....then hez like "you asked for it" and he chooze jiggs at the charcter screen and chooze BF in the QUICKNESS!

...and before i blunk...he rested me..... twice....in a row... he was at 10%... and the rest of the night.... no one won....

moral? No matter what i do... i can't win in this game....
 

TheLifeRuiner

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,811
Location
K-2L
i once told a jiggz player to punish me for EVERYTHING I DID WRONG

he proceeded to completely and utterly and completely and utterly and completely and utterly destroy me in such an unfathomably unfathomable way
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5,817
Location
Tempe, AZ
Bombs.

If you aren't using bombs in the puff fight, I don't know how you are actually fighting puff. If she wants to attack you, she has to space her moves to hit through bombs or she will get hit by them. Either way, it's easy to predict her movement and then punish. The biggest problem with this strategy is you cannot withdraw while doing it. If you give up space on the stage retreating while dropping bombs you will be pushed to the edge even without taking damage.

Be a wall, not fence.

Edit:
Also, read the big write-up on the last page. Good stuff.

Kill moves should be a well-placed F-smash. Why? Because nothing else will kill her ever... it feels...
 

Alukard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
6,446
Location
Bronx
hm. maybe I'll ask alukard for some tips too.


with that attitude it's unfathomable sure ;)

("we gotta make the upsmash work somehowwwwww!")
my trash talk ... ***** everything ... jman nor hax would ever lose a game while i'm trash talking

i once told a jiggz player to punish me for EVERYTHING I DID WRONG

he proceeded to completely and utterly and completely and utterly and completely and utterly destroy me in such an unfathomably unfathomable way
its cuz jiggs is ****ing gay as ****
 

★J.G WentWorth★

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Messages
2,406
Location
Makin Movies, S.W.R. HQ
I don't like organizing my thoughts unless I get graded on it or paid for it. So random stream of consciousness go:

Ban FD. Jiggs has full aerial control there, and you can really only move on the ground. If she gets that extra axis of movement to work with and you don't, the matchup goes from bad to terrible.

Ok, now you're on a stage besides FD (hopefully Yoshi's, Fountain, or BF). Now you need to learn to move around the stage as fast and as far and as accurately as possible. I do this regardless of matchup because that's how I like to play, but in this case I just don't see how you can win otherwise. You need to be able to be able to waveland off a platform, fastfall under Jiggs as she tries to fair you, and double jump uair from below. You need to be able to full jump uair, and waveland across a platform to catch up and fsmash before the pressure game resets back to neutral (because neutral = in jiggs favor). You need to be able to waveland off a top platform, off the side platform, back onto the top platform, and fall of with a fastfalled bair as Jiggs floats towards you. How situational are any of these? Extremely, but you need to be able to know and consistently do anything Samus can physically do on all the neutrals, so when you see an opening or the potential for an opening you can get there and insert your hitboxes wherever you think Jiggs is going. When the puffball constantly has the option to hover around basically anywhere and place her stupidly quick, stupidly positionable, stupidly powerful aerials all over the place, you NEED to be able to see and realize gaps without even really thinking about it.

Talking about Jiggs fair or bair or nair and how to "beat it" is worthless because those aren't just one move each. Retreating and falling fairs that don't hit the ground (allowing for the possibility of a double jump), full jump fairs when moving forward, shorthop fairs that move forward and then back slightly, rising retreating fairs that give Jiggs the option to land on a platform, those are all completely different attacks with vastly different options for you. Make sure you aren't seeing a fair and thinking "Oh yeah I know how to deal with that" and then not learning when you find that it's different and your strategy needs to be different as well.

Missiles are not for hitting Jiggs. Missiles are for forcing her to move higher, shield, or throw out an aerial, all of which will hopefully give you an opening or a positioning advantage. Let's look at those options and what you can do about them:
Shield: You can grab -> dthrow -> charge shot or nair. You can also run up and wait/shield to see if you can figure out any kind of pattern for when you force the opponent to shield. Like, do they know the missile doesn't have enough shield stun to lock them in for the grab, and buffer a roll or spot dodge to avoid it? If so, what way do they roll? Remember it, and try to take advantage of it later when you need that kill (shoot a missile, run up the shield, WD to where they'll probably roll and dsmash, for example)
Midair jump over the missile: Anytime Jiggs is higher than full hop height (but low enough to hit), you should attempt to get under her and uair through her soft pink underbelly. In my experience, that and wd back utilt are the main ways to get hits in.
Aerial through the missile: This is the main strat I see from good Jiggs, because it's really easy to destroy missiles with her brokeass hitboxes, and they can hit you to if you're following the missile too closely. Usually they'll use fair or bair (sometimes nair). When they do this, congrats, you've forced Jiggs to do an aerial in a place where you weren't. Now you have to figure out what to do to punish that (very small) lag. If he used a rising aerial, you can try to get underneath and catch him with the top part of the utilt, jump up and fair, or jump from below and uair. If it's KO percent time, you can even try for a nair. If he falls through the missile with an aerial, and you know where he's going to land, they you're free to place any long Samus hitbox at his landing spot at your discretion. KO percent? Try an f or dsmash. Low percent and you need to do some damage? Utilt should lock him in place on the ground, so you can dtilt to uair whatever you usually do when an utilt locks an opponent in place. Mid percent utilt is probably the best choice too, because it should bounce him up low enough for you to get a nair or something in.

Actually in general utilt is so good in this matchup. There's like no lag after it, Samus' legs are crazy long, it hits so far above you, it's just great overall. Try wding under a full jumping Jiggs and turn around utilt, find the spots where it works, it's kinda hard to describe when unless you've seen it.

On recovering... Jiggs will go out there and smack you. So you need to have full control over your recovery options. Full DI on bomb jumps (mix up which way you hover around too); save your double jump as long as possible, sometimes you can use it to go under the Jiggs and aerial her from below, buying you some time; airdodge through attacks and grapple when you can; make sure you DI straight up if they manage to hit you so you'll have more vertical room to try again (and also so you'll live); if he stays on the stage, recover low to wall jump -> turn around missle is a personal favorite of mine, it can get edgeguarders away from the edge long enough for you to grab the ledge; upB from below through Jiggs can knock him away, use that sometimes. Generally though, never recover the same way twice, Jiggs has way more control out there than you, so you need to be able to adapt on the fly with as many options as possible. Also as a general rule never go for a dair or a nair or a fair while you're out there. It's just not worth it, it's not safe, Jiggs with good spacing will just hit you.

When you have a shielding Jiggs up close... Don't smash attack. Don't dash attack. Don't downtilt. SPACE PERFECTLY your ftilts and utilts and jabs (and jab cancels). One thing that I've had work is (spaced!) jab on the shield to wavedash back fsmash, but that was on a "jump out of shield ASAP" happy Jiggs player. Learn what this specific Jiggs does to get away from shield pressure and try to predict and abuse that.

All of that is weird, oddly specific snippits of info that may or may not help you. Sorry if it doesn't, and correct me if you see something blatantly wrong.

This should be quoted in the OP.
 

Rat

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
1,870
Location
Chicago
I like to watch when Jiggs double Jumps. Her most limiting factor is her ability to move vertically. Also It's not what move she's doing (all of hers beat yours) but at what height (where duh). Also watch out when she lands by your shield. WDooS is great when she is still in the air. But I don't play any good jigglypuffs so what do I know. I generally win by reading the hell out of them =\.

imo, if you land a dair, Dair again. A Tech chase into shield pressure is better than doing a Nair then reseting the positions. (Though if they go to the edge that is good.)
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
i'm gonna try to break the *****es shield by spamming missiles then laying bombs on it
i think that might be the best approach when she's shielding >.>
lay two bombs n come down w/ a dair/nair
 

Watty

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
1,638
guys space forward and up tilts especially up tilts. dont jump at them u wanna stay on teh ground. utilize the up b. missiles will not win this match for u. no dash attacks smash attacks if u miss ur gonna prolly get rested.

jabs forward tilts its a long match so get some red bull and be ready to just play for a while.

when they are in there shield what i do is ijust down air the **** outta them. like i dont stop they have to roll or jump if they jump bam u wack em if they roll u guess right u wack em and if u dont guess right at least tehre outta the freaking thing.
 
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