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In Defense of Sakurai... sort of
- Thread starter mariofanpm12
- Start date
crescentia
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 310
total copies of brawl sold: ~5.5 million
total number of smashboards users: ~110,000
total percent of smashboarders to overall smash-liking population: ~2%
it's pretty obvious who this game was targeted to; why should they even remotely give a sh*t about us?
I think Sakurai did a fine job appealing to the other 5.4 million buyers out there
total number of smashboards users: ~110,000
total percent of smashboarders to overall smash-liking population: ~2%
it's pretty obvious who this game was targeted to; why should they even remotely give a sh*t about us?
I think Sakurai did a fine job appealing to the other 5.4 million buyers out there
smashbro29
Smash Champion
Wavedashing is a glitch! they fixed a glitch! l-canceling wasn't he probably took it out because if the wii-remote control scheme.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^Guess what? The other 5,4 million people would've still bought brawl even if it was geared more toward us. In other words, he would've easily added on another 2% with no real work...at all (just release the demo without any changes, It's actually less work, costs less money, and gets a few more buyers).
What does that say? That the smartest thing to do would've been to leave everything that was in the demo (since it's less work to keep it in than to take it out), do all the other stuff they did, and be done with it. Less work, more money, and more happy smashers (though only a few more).
But why didn't he do that? Because we don't fit in his "everybody wins with no work at all" mentality, and thus he actually took the time, and money, to take out the stuff that we liked, knowing that he wouldn't actually be making any more money in doing so (or he's just an idiot to not realize why appealing to all audiances is better than appealing to just "the big audiance")
And No, wavedashing was not a glitch. They intentionally programmed the "land fall special" into the game, for the rare event that someone comes in contact with the ground in the middle of an airdodge. That's what the little white clouds at your feet are!! The reaason you slide is because momentum carries over in that game (just play Luigi and notice that you slide whenever you land in general). Airdodging gives momentum. Put them all together and you get
WAVEDASHING! The epitome of the melee physics engine. You've got momentum transfer mechanics, directional airdodge mechanics, land duiring aerial mechanics...mechanics, individual character traction mechanics, all packed in two button presses. You could not possibly be furthr from a glitch.
What does that say? That the smartest thing to do would've been to leave everything that was in the demo (since it's less work to keep it in than to take it out), do all the other stuff they did, and be done with it. Less work, more money, and more happy smashers (though only a few more).
But why didn't he do that? Because we don't fit in his "everybody wins with no work at all" mentality, and thus he actually took the time, and money, to take out the stuff that we liked, knowing that he wouldn't actually be making any more money in doing so (or he's just an idiot to not realize why appealing to all audiances is better than appealing to just "the big audiance")
And No, wavedashing was not a glitch. They intentionally programmed the "land fall special" into the game, for the rare event that someone comes in contact with the ground in the middle of an airdodge. That's what the little white clouds at your feet are!! The reaason you slide is because momentum carries over in that game (just play Luigi and notice that you slide whenever you land in general). Airdodging gives momentum. Put them all together and you get
WAVEDASHING! The epitome of the melee physics engine. You've got momentum transfer mechanics, directional airdodge mechanics, land duiring aerial mechanics...mechanics, individual character traction mechanics, all packed in two button presses. You could not possibly be furthr from a glitch.
Aleol
Smash Journeyman
Yeah... Lets see you program 35 characters, each with unique movesets, allong with about 30 stages, and a stage builder, each with their own unique comings and goings, along with over 300 songs, a library of unlockables, a Single player adventure mode, all in about 2.5 years, and then see if it's everything you wanted it to be.
Okay, to your first point, That's exactly what it was. A demo. Demos are meant to see what the fans like and what they don't. Obviously the majority of the fans didn't like some things. What made the demo so different from the actual game? no Demo is exactly like the game that's being made. It's generally used to give the fans a taste of what's coming. Of course it's going to change
Your second (that I quoted). There is absolutely NO proof that Sakurai has ANY vendetta against Competitive players. He created this game to please everybody. Tripping is way too trivial a thing to base an argument on. This game, along with melee, has extreme competitive potential. It has a rather high learning curve for many people. And the better player still wins. It still takes reflexes. Button inputs. ATs. It just requires you to be more careful. How does that ruin potential
Why would you protest? Because Brawl wasn't exactly what you wanted it to be? no directional input dodges? No L-cancelling? (actually I liked L-cancelling) But I can live without it. If you know Anyone who can do it any better than Sakurai, then please, do tell
crescentia
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 310
Two points:
1. There is absolutely no reason for them to cater towards us in the first place, because we all bought Brawl anyway. Would you have bought Brawl despite knowing that certain advanced techniques were removed?
2. There is no "everybody wins with no work at all" mentality. That's just foolish. Removing techniques and exploits is about leveling the playing field. Doing so allows everyone to compete on a similar level without excessive need to study the game. On one hand, increased study of the game should provide better results - i.e., you win more. On the other hand, players that can out-think others should win more - in other words, this gives us more opportunity to study each other more, something which never really happened until the majority of tech skill was learned and consciously implemented.
That way, in Brawl, it'd be no more or less amazing to own someone - it'd be just dramatically different, and perhaps even more terrifying to behold.
1. There is absolutely no reason for them to cater towards us in the first place, because we all bought Brawl anyway. Would you have bought Brawl despite knowing that certain advanced techniques were removed?
2. There is no "everybody wins with no work at all" mentality. That's just foolish. Removing techniques and exploits is about leveling the playing field. Doing so allows everyone to compete on a similar level without excessive need to study the game. On one hand, increased study of the game should provide better results - i.e., you win more. On the other hand, players that can out-think others should win more - in other words, this gives us more opportunity to study each other more, something which never really happened until the majority of tech skill was learned and consciously implemented.
That way, in Brawl, it'd be no more or less amazing to own someone - it'd be just dramatically different, and perhaps even more terrifying to behold.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Guess what? That part is great. Everybody likes that part. Nobody is complaining about that part, and he did a good job there. But that's not where I was planning to spend my time playing for 4+ years. The part that I find most important is the multiplayer.
Differences between the demo and final product.
1.Attacks in the demo had more hitstun, so there were more legitamate combos and thus, predictability was punished more severly
2.The window for dash dancing was much wider, so you got more distance in your dash dance. Though you did risk tripping, it was still a very effective fakeout and spacing tool.
3.A form of L-canceling existed. If you fastfell before doing an aerial, 100% of the lag was cut off upon landing.
Those are some pretty important differences if you ask me, and there was really no logical reason to take them out. Casual players would've liked the game either way, but competative players would've much preferred this version. That is my biggest spite with Sakurai, that rather than trying to please both audiances (which he would've with the demo, in fact many E for All players complemented the demo as a nice change from melee), he went out of his way to take these things out.
That was a very drastic change, not to mention that generally the changes between the demo and final product are
1. The removale of harmful bugs and glitches (stuff that freezes the game, stuff that ruins the visual display, ect.)
and
2. Character balance issues (mostly found in play testing. But why didn't they remove the DDD chaingrab? We found it in the demo in less than a week, but somehow they missed it?)
Quote Sakurai (from Iwata asks): "When people think of playing Smash Bros. online, they think about battling opponents to see what happens based on their record of wins or losses, or about holding tournaments online. But I felt that this would make it a service from which only a select group of players could derive enjoyment. For Smash Bros., there are small communities here and there where there’s fun in winning and losing, even when there are more skilled players than others. But if you make an environment where everyone is trying to climb their way to the top of a single tall mountain, it’s clear that the people having fun would be limited to a small number of individuals. "
I bolded that phrase because it just shows how little Sakurai knows about the competative mindset. The fun of the game is "climbing the mountain," not standing there at the top. Sakurai assumed that the players that are lower in the rankings are somehow not having fun. It may not be a vendeta, but it is a very big misunderstanding.
No, he geared the game towards casual players, as he personally stated that he feels the aspects of "winning and losing" take the fun out of the game. He wanted everybody to win, but in doing so he undermined something very important to competative players. He undermined the idea that winning has to be earned, and that the person who puts more work into the game deserves to win more.
It's not just tripping! (which is a concept that underminds the very nature of competativeness by the way).
It's also the reduced hitstun, the auto sweetspotting, the reverse ledgegrabs, the lower shield drop lag, the lack of aerial momentum, the shortened dash dancing, the strange hitboxes, the obvious chaingrabs, the low lag on airdodging, the low lag on rolls, the removale of reflective powershielding, and all the other things that could've just been left alone.
You know what were some awesome additions that I'm really glad for
RAR is awesome!
Powershielding is now more dependable!
Airdodging is a viable option to dodge attacks now (though they really overdid it)!
Spotdodges do their job now, instead of getting you grabbed after you succesfully dodged!
Those were great, now if he had just left that other stuff alone, I'd be happy (along with that 2% of the smash buyers.)
The learning curve is much, much lower.
The game is much more forgiving
The slower pace lessens the importance of reflexes
The button inputs can now be buffered and do not require precise timing
The ATs also do not require much practice to learn.
You do not have to be more careful, provided that you are spamming safe attacks, as proportionally, they are much safer now than they were before.
That's how it ruins potential.
I'd protest because I don't agree with Sakurai's mindset in general. He's trying to please everyone, but he's approaching it the wrong way. He wants everyone to win, regardless of how much effort they personally have invested in the game. He specifically stated that his wish was that a newer player would be able to win a few more matches against a vetran than before. This is going in the exact opposite direction of where a competative game is supposed to go. This mindset is what I'm opposed to. The player that practices more, should win more. In fact, the better player should always win, not just most of the time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the free for alls, and the items, and stuff aren't fun, or that they shoudld be removed. But what I really wanted was a game that supported both audiances. Where you could just flip a few switches and transform the game into a deep and complex fighter, that is as exciting to watch as it is to play. You can have your subspace emissarry, and your smash balls and New Pork city. But why can't I have my L-canceling, hitstun, and fast paced game too?
We may have bought brawl, but how long will we play it? How long will we host tournaments? How long will we upload videos online, and support a forrum for it? How long will we be giving them free advertising? We gave melee 7 years worth of free advertising. Brawl would be lucky to get 3.
Wanna bet?
Why is that a good thing? Why shouldn't the harder worker get an advantage over the new commer? That's exactly what I'm talking about
Exactly, studying the game...should allow you to get better at it.
How does this not coincide with studying the game? First, you learn your options. Then, you learn your opponent's options. Then you compare them against each other and either predict what your opponent will pick from his options, and pick one of your options to counter it, or you react to one of your opponent's options with an appropriate countermeausure (assuming you have time to do so). Isn't that the smarter player winning more? The smarter player is the one who took time to expand his ability, and has the ability to sort out which of these newfound options he should apply to different situations.
And? If those techs gave you more options, then they're a good thing. Making them easier to learn? Also a good thing. Removing them without giving any replacement for the options lost? Very, very, bad thing.
Exactly how did you come to that conclusion. You no longer have quick fakeouts to confuse opponents in brawl (no wavedashing or dash dancing, and fox trotting is to slow to accomplish the effect), you no longer have ways to vary your aerial momentum (dashing before jumping no longer makes you go faster), you fall much slower and thus much less mobile in the air (though not vulnerable since airdodging is good now), punishment is much less severe since there is very little hitstun (thus very few combos), on stage edgeguarding doesn't exist for most characters due to auto sweetspotting, missed edgeguards are hard to punish since you are now forced to stay on the ledge for a while before being able to let go of it, and overall the game is much slower, making it less important to plan out for the long run rather than just going moment by moment.
Yeah, real exciting<_<
Amazing post Aleol
Again, your "crowd" doesn't matter. You'll probably buy SSB4. They would rather appeal to the larger ground. The group that has more money. This is the same philosophy Nintendo is using now and it's working.
The idea is held up in other games such as Team Fortress 2. Instead of using world stats comparing all players, it gives you only personal scores and scores based on the current server. Why do this? It's the same reason Sakurai had no leaderboards in Brawl: you only care if your at the top. The idea is to eliminate it so players don't get discouraged and continue to play becuase it's fun. No stats. No win/lose record. Just the game, which they are already motivated to play.
This is why he is developing games and you are not.
This does not hurt competative play in any way. The lack of techniques removes depth yes, but it doesn not mean it doesn not have an element of skill. Trust me, I played Melee without all the AT BS and you had to actually learn your foe. Precision wasn't the only skill, you have to learn quickly what your opponent will do and react. You now have to do this in Brawl, a skill I have used long before. The level of competativeness is still there because it still requires skill.
Becuase you said it before. It takes time. Why focus on 2%. As I mentioned, if there is skill you can compete. Sakurai wants it to be easier so more people can compete and still have fun. Thus making it a better game. By remove the need to appeal to one audience, he can appeal to more people and ensure they will buy SSB4 and also buy more Nintendo products.
Your problem is you have a very linear scope of this. You only look at yourself and your woes but don't understand how these things effect other people. Let's be honest, competitive Smash (and most other competitive games) gets a bad rap. Removing wavedashing made a lot of people happy as they can now compete with better players without having to learn it. Sakurai would be wise to look at the players who are not having fun and the ones who aren't becuase other players moves around the stage like a crazed loony.
Sakurai did what he should, make the greatest number of people happy.
As mentioned before, Smashboards and the competative communty is about 2% of courretn sales (it hasn't come out in PAL territories yet). So explain to me why he SHOULD appeal to the smaller group rather then the larger. Also...
He has more buisness sence doing it the way he did becuase he made a product that appealed to a broader audience. Not to mention the Smashboard members will probably buy the games day 1 so there is no need to make them happy as they'll continue to buy the product regardless.
Too........much........irony
Again, your "crowd" doesn't matter. You'll probably buy SSB4. They would rather appeal to the larger ground. The group that has more money. This is the same philosophy Nintendo is using now and it's working.
What about sequels and down the line. Sure, those 5.4 million people might have still bought Brawl, but with advance techniques and a harder game will they have still bought SSB4. You see, this is how you keep a series going. Most will go down hill but Smash has gone up becuase it focuses on pure fun and being relatively easy to play so everyone can enjoy their favorite Nintendo character (or Sonic/Snake).
Do you really think it took that much time and money? But you know what Sakurai has that you don't? Playtesters. People play the game and they see what people found the most/least enjoyable. It could have been that those things you liked were not fun to the playtesters. So, out they go. Also keep in mind you didn't play the demo.
Firstly, online. No matter what you may tell me, if they keep AT in the game then people will use them to win online. Also, you have no way to say how much people would have like either version becuase guess what, not everyone played both. So there is no way to tell for sure what you claim is true.
I don't think you understood what he said as you twisted it around.
The idea is held up in other games such as Team Fortress 2. Instead of using world stats comparing all players, it gives you only personal scores and scores based on the current server. Why do this? It's the same reason Sakurai had no leaderboards in Brawl: you only care if your at the top. The idea is to eliminate it so players don't get discouraged and continue to play becuase it's fun. No stats. No win/lose record. Just the game, which they are already motivated to play.
This is why he is developing games and you are not.
So you can run around the stage like a madman now.
This does not hurt competative play in any way. The lack of techniques removes depth yes, but it doesn not mean it doesn not have an element of skill. Trust me, I played Melee without all the AT BS and you had to actually learn your foe. Precision wasn't the only skill, you have to learn quickly what your opponent will do and react. You now have to do this in Brawl, a skill I have used long before. The level of competativeness is still there because it still requires skill.
Actually, doesn't this do the opposite of what you suggest. With the game being easier and players having to learn certain techniques just to compete that more people will want to become good and more tournaments will spring up?
[/QUOTE]
Becuase you said it before. It takes time. Why focus on 2%. As I mentioned, if there is skill you can compete. Sakurai wants it to be easier so more people can compete and still have fun. Thus making it a better game. By remove the need to appeal to one audience, he can appeal to more people and ensure they will buy SSB4 and also buy more Nintendo products.
Your problem is you have a very linear scope of this. You only look at yourself and your woes but don't understand how these things effect other people. Let's be honest, competitive Smash (and most other competitive games) gets a bad rap. Removing wavedashing made a lot of people happy as they can now compete with better players without having to learn it. Sakurai would be wise to look at the players who are not having fun and the ones who aren't becuase other players moves around the stage like a crazed loony.
Sakurai did what he should, make the greatest number of people happy.
Aleol
Smash Journeyman
I see your point. This doesn't mean I agree with you
If he kept wavedashing and l-cancelling in, what do you think would happen when people go online and choose to go random? It will be exploited and thus making the casual gamer not want to play the game.
Also why would Sakurai specially cater for the competitive community when we would buy the game anyway(like we have just done). Today's society is all about wanting more and more. We need to get the new models of iPods, phones and consoles regulary, we are never satisfied with what we have. This making us not satisfid with Melee anymore, us wanting Brawl. Nuff said its all about money and sales, deal with it.
Also why would Sakurai specially cater for the competitive community when we would buy the game anyway(like we have just done). Today's society is all about wanting more and more. We need to get the new models of iPods, phones and consoles regulary, we are never satisfied with what we have. This making us not satisfid with Melee anymore, us wanting Brawl. Nuff said its all about money and sales, deal with it.
PEACHYprincess
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2007
- Messages
- 140
I didn't mind Sakurai directing it I just wished he would have had a longer time making the game because then he could have added more characters and modes. That is my only complain. Other than that he did a good job.
SmashBro99
Smash Champion
Omg He Took Out Wave Dashing Now I Can't Win With My Glit-- Advanced Technique!
stevensteve
Smash Cadet
you make many good points and it sounds like you hate brawl
but remember! hate is just tainted love
<3
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I don't really hate brawl. It's just that brawl could've easily been so much better, with litterally no extra effort at all (it was already there!) That's what frustrates me.
Because, also as mentioned before, the casual players don't care, and will likely never have to play against us (we are only 2% after all), so they wouldn't be any less happy had these things been there.
Actually, appealing to everyone is better than appealing to "the big crowd." Then it's only about which players are harder to please (casual players don't care either way).
I'll just wait until one of my random non competative friends buys it, look up all the stuff on smashboards, and decide if I want to buy it later.
And "the crowd that has more money" is not as good as "both crowds put together"
Yes! Yes they would! It already happened. They all brought brawl, despite how "hard" melee was!
And guess what keeps it going several years down the road? People see random videos on youtube, or their friend invites them to play with them (after seeing some random video on youtube), and they're suddenly interested in a 4-7 year old game! Did you forget about that?
Not that much, but it's still wasted time and wasted money, no matter how small.
Those play testers didn't find the DDD chaingrab (which we did), or the uses of "hugging' (which we did), so obviously they weren't taking it that seriously.
With the amount of lag in online matches, advance techs would simply be ineffective there. Not to mention that most competative players stick to the "with friends" option and don't actually "play with anyone." That and, like you guys like to point out so much when it's convinient for you, we're only 2% of the smash population, and you'll almost never have to play against us
Gimpyfish's rant on "brawl will have a backwards progression" comes to mind, considering his large praise and support when he played the demo. It's true that not everyone has played both, but at the same time, a lot of the things we're complaining about now...were okay in the demo. And all my casual friends (yes, I do have those), say that they don't really care if those things are there or not. Thus, the easiest way to please both of them, would be to cater to the people who actually cared about whether those things were in or not. You say that he shouldn't cater to the 2%, but at the same time, all the changes were for the rare case that those 2% actually play against the rest of the world. Problems only arise when these people play against each other, which is extremely rare. So if all these advance techs had been left in, the majority of casual players would never know. The vast majority of them would neve encounter such techniques, yet we'd be having much more fun on our side using them against each other.
I understood exactly what he said. He doesn't want a rankings system, because it puts the focus on winning and losing. However, this mentality bleeds into other areas of the game. Tripping is implemented so that every now and then someone gets a free hit, or avoids a hit. In one interview he stated that he wanted to level the playing field, so that lesser skilled players had at least some chance agaist better people. But how often do these people play each other? Why does this particular instance even matter? He slowed down the game so that newer players don't feel overwhelmed when they fight against better players, but how often does this happen? Both audiances stick to their own crowds, because they really do prefer it that way.
Removing depth=hurting competative play.
And guess what? If both of you knew the ATs, you still had to learn your foe, only now both of you had much, much more to chose from!
When you both had precision, you had to react faster and learn more quickly than before. I'm not talking about M2K vs some random n00b. I'm talking about 6th place vs 5th place. I'm talking about Azen vs Ken, about PC Chris vs KDJ, about M2K vs Mango! When both players know how to play their characters well, and play a much more intense match because of it.
Look, here's my problem with brawl.
Most characters have one or two approach options that they must rely on over and over because they are simply their "best" approach options. There are very few fakeouts because the game is just to slow, and most punishments are subtle changes in spacing (but this was already present in melee) to cause an attack to miss, giving you the opportunity to hit them. This proccess is repeated over and over until somebody wins, because there's really no alternative.
No, because quantity is no substitute for quality. Brawl tournament matches are much less fun to play than Melee tournament matches, and (for my local gigs tournament anyway) none of the new brawl players were good, nor did they have any desire to put any work into becoming good. It's actually better if the game is a little harder, because it weeds out the players who can't dedicate themselves for the long run, and makes the tournament experience much more enjoyable, though harder to get into.
Because he already had it and then got rid of it! That's what frustrates me! It was there! But then he took it out for no real reason. It wouldn't have taken any more time, or any more money, because it was already there and already pleasing the members that played the demo. But it was taken away from us!
You can compete in checkers, or you can compete in chess. The existance of competition is not the issue. It's the quality of the competition.
But most casual players don't compete, as per the nature of being noncompetative. And newer players have to deal with even more barriers now than they did before! Now we have the DDD chaingrab, projectile spamming, and shield camping, which are even more devestating on newer players than all of melee's combos put together!
Or he can alienate the competative fanbase, while not making the casual players any more happy than they would be otherwise, further disconnecting the two groups and fanning the resentment between them.
And your problem is that you don't understand the enjoyment that we had playing a game as deep and complex as melee, and how hurt we feel having this purposefully taken away from us, in favor of people who were largely unaffected by this descision.
Lets be more honest, the majority of players did not even know what wavedashing was until they visited smashboards, and had never encountered this technique until then. And even after finding out about it, most of them never learned the technique, labled it a glitch, and continued to play casually with their friends as they always had.
In all actuallity, he pleased less players than he displeased with these changes, becauese when you really think about it. The players he pleased were
_The casual players who played against competative players_
which is much smaller than
_The total amount of competative players_
That would mean including the 2%'s happiness as well wouldn't it, considering the measures that would've made us happy wouldn't have made any significant amount of the other group less happy. The only ones that would be displeased with this are the people that we fight against using such techniques. They'd feel we have an unfair advantage over then and they'd probably be less happy for a while. However, considering we are only 2%, that group would have to be even less than that don't you think? If less than 10% of our 2% of the population plays against them, then that's a really small number in comparison right? So 0.2% of the total smash population would be displeased with the inclusion of advance techs, but the other 99.8% would either like it or not care.
Do you see my point now?
Psychoace
Smash Champion
Awesome post, I don't see any other way of seeing it, why can't it appeal to both and not just one? If your still coming up with excuses your just to ****ed thicked skulled of a person to take anyones point.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Well, I feel better. Really needed to vent out my frustration.
Sorry if I sounded insulting in my post (for anyone reading it).
I wonder if that whole USB Gecko thing will work out. And for anyone who's actually thinking about getting one DO NOT UPDATE YOUR WII. You won't be able to use the twilight hack to get the homebrew channel, which will be neccesary to run the USB Gecko Hack when it's released.
Sorry if I sounded insulting in my post (for anyone reading it).
I wonder if that whole USB Gecko thing will work out. And for anyone who's actually thinking about getting one DO NOT UPDATE YOUR WII. You won't be able to use the twilight hack to get the homebrew channel, which will be neccesary to run the USB Gecko Hack when it's released.
Frate
Smash Journeyman
Would Futile win like 85% of games if Brawl was completely noob-rigged? :D
Pegasus Knight
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2007
- Messages
- 708
You can appeal to both crowds. And honestly, you need to... to an extent. The dedicated tournament crowd in any game is smaller than the casual playing crowd. This is true in Magic the Gathering, it is true in Smash. Both games can appeal to both crowds. However, you have to be careful about rewarding any expert play too much, or making the game revolve around mastering too many skills.
Fighting games in the 1990s are a fantastic example of this. Street Fighter 2 had such wide appeal that it got its own cartoon series, GI Joe action figures, and so on. Yet until extremely recently, that franchise was dead in the water, and Guilty Gear is only appealing to a very hardcore niche audience. How is this?
Part of it is certainly saturation. We got too many 'seemingly identical' games in too short a time. Another part is that they continued to add more and more depth... and also more and more ways to rack up massive damage on an opponent for a single mistake. When the opponent makes one error and finds themselves on the end of an infinite combo, complete with the player seemingly going ballistic on the controls (*clackclackclackclack* on Gamecube pads, physically rocking the arcade cabinet, etc.), that can be extremely discouraging. You might say "suck it up and learn to play better", but that only occurs to a 'casual player' if their loss was reasonably close. The more damage-building depth of play you add, the more frustrated a casual player becomes. Being hit by an infinite is not fun. Granted, it seems only a small number of true infinites exist in Brawl, but I'm told that Melee has several more 0-to-death combos. (And even if that's false, the perception is there.)
Likewise, too much depth in movement can make the player assume they have to be a crack-fiend that rips their controller in half just to be decent. I'm absolutely certain you've heard the stereotype about this: "Melee tourney players are all about clackclackclackclack and wavedashing and tearing their pad apart, Fox vs. Marth, no fun, Final Destination." - Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. The perception is that this is the case, and casual people will stay away from serious Melee play accordingly.
I know that was very much the case with me. I remember my exact words when we discovered for certain that wavedashing wasn't in Brawl: "Good! Now I won't have to look like a friggin' Looney Toons episode anymore just to play." All that hyper-fast skidding around and kicking up dust-clouds everywhere made me uninterested in Melee's high level play, and made me very interested in Brawl's.
The problem is Sakurai has gone too far to the other end. Instead of just removing intimidating factors (you can still have a deep game without it being intimidating to those unfamiliar with it)... he has gone as far as punishing players for truly mundane things, such as... ...moving. Tripping is not fun. Sure, it's generally pretty rare... but if you're unlucky, you'll trip 3 or 4 times in the span of two minutes. I've had it happen as often as five times in a two minute match, and found myself just sighing and cussing in frustration.
Melee went too far in the 'competitive' direction. It was genuinely intimidating to watch experts go at it, and my initial attempts to learn high-level Melee were met with such frustration that I didn't bother beyond that. Brawl started to find an ideal middle ground, then added Tripping and other nonsense. Nintendo's current design goals of "lol, everyone wins due to wacky randomness" in Brawl and Mario Kart (ESPECIALLY Mario Kart) has turned me off to their approach to multiplayer games. As in, I won't even buy them until I see signs of very real change; Mario Kart was my last one until such time.
Like many things, I'm pretty sure there's a mostly-ideal solution somewhere 'in the middle.' Melee was too intimidating (and if it wasn't, you wouldn't be hearing "fox vs. marth, final destination, clackclackclack" so much from non-Melee-tourney-goers), Brawl is tilted a bit too casual. I truly hope Smash 4 finds the middle ground between these two, because going too hardcore causes a game to dry up like Street Fighter and its ilk did. Too casual, and those who truly do delight in competition will go elsewhere.
Fighting games in the 1990s are a fantastic example of this. Street Fighter 2 had such wide appeal that it got its own cartoon series, GI Joe action figures, and so on. Yet until extremely recently, that franchise was dead in the water, and Guilty Gear is only appealing to a very hardcore niche audience. How is this?
Part of it is certainly saturation. We got too many 'seemingly identical' games in too short a time. Another part is that they continued to add more and more depth... and also more and more ways to rack up massive damage on an opponent for a single mistake. When the opponent makes one error and finds themselves on the end of an infinite combo, complete with the player seemingly going ballistic on the controls (*clackclackclackclack* on Gamecube pads, physically rocking the arcade cabinet, etc.), that can be extremely discouraging. You might say "suck it up and learn to play better", but that only occurs to a 'casual player' if their loss was reasonably close. The more damage-building depth of play you add, the more frustrated a casual player becomes. Being hit by an infinite is not fun. Granted, it seems only a small number of true infinites exist in Brawl, but I'm told that Melee has several more 0-to-death combos. (And even if that's false, the perception is there.)
Likewise, too much depth in movement can make the player assume they have to be a crack-fiend that rips their controller in half just to be decent. I'm absolutely certain you've heard the stereotype about this: "Melee tourney players are all about clackclackclackclack and wavedashing and tearing their pad apart, Fox vs. Marth, no fun, Final Destination." - Whether it's true or not doesn't matter. The perception is that this is the case, and casual people will stay away from serious Melee play accordingly.
I know that was very much the case with me. I remember my exact words when we discovered for certain that wavedashing wasn't in Brawl: "Good! Now I won't have to look like a friggin' Looney Toons episode anymore just to play." All that hyper-fast skidding around and kicking up dust-clouds everywhere made me uninterested in Melee's high level play, and made me very interested in Brawl's.
The problem is Sakurai has gone too far to the other end. Instead of just removing intimidating factors (you can still have a deep game without it being intimidating to those unfamiliar with it)... he has gone as far as punishing players for truly mundane things, such as... ...moving. Tripping is not fun. Sure, it's generally pretty rare... but if you're unlucky, you'll trip 3 or 4 times in the span of two minutes. I've had it happen as often as five times in a two minute match, and found myself just sighing and cussing in frustration.
Melee went too far in the 'competitive' direction. It was genuinely intimidating to watch experts go at it, and my initial attempts to learn high-level Melee were met with such frustration that I didn't bother beyond that. Brawl started to find an ideal middle ground, then added Tripping and other nonsense. Nintendo's current design goals of "lol, everyone wins due to wacky randomness" in Brawl and Mario Kart (ESPECIALLY Mario Kart) has turned me off to their approach to multiplayer games. As in, I won't even buy them until I see signs of very real change; Mario Kart was my last one until such time.
Like many things, I'm pretty sure there's a mostly-ideal solution somewhere 'in the middle.' Melee was too intimidating (and if it wasn't, you wouldn't be hearing "fox vs. marth, final destination, clackclackclack" so much from non-Melee-tourney-goers), Brawl is tilted a bit too casual. I truly hope Smash 4 finds the middle ground between these two, because going too hardcore causes a game to dry up like Street Fighter and its ilk did. Too casual, and those who truly do delight in competition will go elsewhere.
Darkurai
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2007
- Messages
- 3,012
People are saying that they don't want Sakurai to do the next smash (aside from the joke people that say gimpy or Kojima should do it, there are people that seriously oppose him). But the thing is, without Sakurai, there won't be another Smash Bros.
I'm not trying to be all metaphorical and like "Sakurai is the best, so it just won't be the same." No. There literally will not be another Smash Bros. game without Sakurai. Nintendo is the most contradictory company I've ever seen. Wii Fit in its essence was made for business. From a business standpoint, Wii Fit's purpose is to get the people who normally wouldn't buy Nintendo's games to buy Nintendo's games. It's all so that they can get money. Yet, here we have Smash Brothers which was Nintendo of America's fastest selling game ever, and is insanely popular. Yet Nintendo refuses to do anything about it. They have flat-out said that they're not making a Smash Bros. game without Sakurai. Their intention for Brawl was to either get Sakurai to make it, or to remake Melee online.
Without Sakurai, there literally is no Smash Bros.
I'm not trying to be all metaphorical and like "Sakurai is the best, so it just won't be the same." No. There literally will not be another Smash Bros. game without Sakurai. Nintendo is the most contradictory company I've ever seen. Wii Fit in its essence was made for business. From a business standpoint, Wii Fit's purpose is to get the people who normally wouldn't buy Nintendo's games to buy Nintendo's games. It's all so that they can get money. Yet, here we have Smash Brothers which was Nintendo of America's fastest selling game ever, and is insanely popular. Yet Nintendo refuses to do anything about it. They have flat-out said that they're not making a Smash Bros. game without Sakurai. Their intention for Brawl was to either get Sakurai to make it, or to remake Melee online.
Without Sakurai, there literally is no Smash Bros.
PCHU
Smash Lord
You know what....
Why can't you all just shut up and have some fun?
It's not like this game is Pong.
It won't kill you to have some fun.
Quit complaining, will you...
Who cares if this game isn't competitive?
You want competitive, stick with Melee.
I play it AND Brawl almost everyday.
And I don't care about a n00b playing against me.
You act as if they will PWN no matter what.
They aren't going to beat me, and several other people, and you know why?
BECAUSE THEY PLAN AHEAD.
Someone can't just pick up a controller and start owning your main.
If you have ANY sort of brain, you can figure out how to outsmart him.
Sakurai needs no defense, he made a great game, but not the one you wanted.
Make your own, it seems it won't be that hard.
You won't make your own?
Then stop whining and play Melee.
It's a great game, and there are always things that you haven't found yet.
Try some new attack strings.
I've been practicing waveshining.
It's mor difficult than anything I've ever tried, but I play it anyway.
When I want seriousness, I play seriously.
Get it?
Brawl is competitive, even if it's slow.
As a matter of fact, it's MORE competitive.
You now SUPPOSEDLY have MILLONS of n00bs to overcome.
MORE competition, thus it gets MORE COMPETITIVE.
See?
Why can't you all just shut up and have some fun?
It's not like this game is Pong.
It won't kill you to have some fun.
Quit complaining, will you...
Who cares if this game isn't competitive?
You want competitive, stick with Melee.
I play it AND Brawl almost everyday.
And I don't care about a n00b playing against me.
You act as if they will PWN no matter what.
They aren't going to beat me, and several other people, and you know why?
BECAUSE THEY PLAN AHEAD.
Someone can't just pick up a controller and start owning your main.
If you have ANY sort of brain, you can figure out how to outsmart him.
Sakurai needs no defense, he made a great game, but not the one you wanted.
Make your own, it seems it won't be that hard.
You won't make your own?
Then stop whining and play Melee.
It's a great game, and there are always things that you haven't found yet.
Try some new attack strings.
I've been practicing waveshining.
It's mor difficult than anything I've ever tried, but I play it anyway.
When I want seriousness, I play seriously.
Get it?
Brawl is competitive, even if it's slow.
As a matter of fact, it's MORE competitive.
You now SUPPOSEDLY have MILLONS of n00bs to overcome.
MORE competition, thus it gets MORE COMPETITIVE.
See?
Toadster5
Smash Journeyman
I don't think he cares whether anybody here cuts him slack or not because his game is selling millions of copies. The game sucks in my eyes so why should I be sympathetic?
Learn the new glitches and stop complaining already.
And combos and hitstun aren't the only thing in fighting games. The trend nowadays is avoidable combos of 4-5 hits max in most fighting games.
I miss Samurai Shodown and its half-of-a-bar damage from single hits.
And combos and hitstun aren't the only thing in fighting games. The trend nowadays is avoidable combos of 4-5 hits max in most fighting games.
I miss Samurai Shodown and its half-of-a-bar damage from single hits.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
180OP
Smash Journeyman
hahahaha this post was made of win.
Whatever is done is done. Don't be stuck in the past and look to the future.
Now what you have is lots of people good at brawl because there is limited techniques to get better at. Like M2K said, it is some luck, trading hits, just the casual type stuff.
The game is still fun.
-sonny-
Smash Journeyman
Actually, MvC2 doesn't really count as "nowadays". It came out originally for the Dreamcast, so it's pretty old ...
New fighting games are things like Guilty Gear Accent Core (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=TUZb45qYEjY) and Melty Blood Act Cadenza (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-KqE7qJfUsM)
As you can see, the combos really aren't that big. Also, a lot of people criticize MvC2 BECAUSE there's way too many infinites and most of the combos are way too long. A lot of the time you're dead after getting hit like twice.
Yes, out of doujins like Melty Blood. The Daigo combo is a 3 hit combo without the special sequence.
Marvel vs Capcom 2 and SF3 aren't "nowadays" anyway. They have almost 10 years. And MvsC2 is one of the most broken things ever.
It's sad like most fighting games are simply competitions for who will unleash the longest combo, while the other player is just sitting there while his health goes from 100% to zero. Very very fun. Where's the merit of learning a button sequence. Combos must be another possible weapon not the final goal.
Marvel vs Capcom 2 and SF3 aren't "nowadays" anyway. They have almost 10 years. And MvsC2 is one of the most broken things ever.
It's sad like most fighting games are simply competitions for who will unleash the longest combo, while the other player is just sitting there while his health goes from 100% to zero. Very very fun. Where's the merit of learning a button sequence. Combos must be another possible weapon not the final goal.
D1
Banned via Administration
Its almost July...and ppl still argue about this...cry me a river. >_>
180OP
Smash Journeyman
Show me 10 people who went "NOES! My enjoyment of Melee is ruined because Wavedashing is in the game! I will never play it again/play it less!".
See above.
We have evidence they would buy it again over and over since SSB64 had a learning curve which made it impossible for a Casual player to win over a Competitive one since one hit literally meant one stock most of the time. Yet people bought Melee. Melee was highly technical and Competitive players could run circles around Casual ones... yet people still bought Brawl.
Why shouldn't they? Nobody ever stopped playing because the game was deep. People have started playing more because it's deep.
No one ever went "There's wavedashing in Melee. I'll stop playing now.". Nobody is forced to use wavedashing or to play against people who wavedash unless they go to tournaments (and even in Brawl, we're doing stuff Casual players do not at tournaments).
Having wavedashing in the game did in no way impede on the enjoyment of anyone. You could choose to wavedash and you could choose not to. Removing it (and the many other things that were removed) simply takes away that choice and makes many unhappy.
I'm sorry, what? Guilty Gear XXAC and Melty Blood AC not having long combos?!
The very first combo in the GGAC video is 12 hits. Followed shortly by an 18-hit combo. Almost every single combo in that video is at least 10 hits long (save for Potemkin's which just inflict tons of damage)! And those aren't even the best ones as that's merely an instructional video the makers made. A lot of combos were later worked out by the players.
Melty Blood: Act Cadenza is the same. Have you ever seen Hisui or Mech Hisui? Or Ciel? The mere fact that you can combo into specials set up for ridiculously long combos.
Another current game with long combos would be Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection. I don't play Virtua Fighter so I can't say anything about it.
MorpheusVGX
Smash Journeyman
Well.. I have to step here and defend Sakurai. He is not just the Director.. he is the CREATOR! THE DESIGNER OF THIS GAME AND ITS GAMEPLAY. None of you would be here if Sakurai hadn't created this wonderful game. That "thing" you find in the Smash series, that you don't find in any other fighting or party game, he created it. He created this new exciting experience that created this large fan data base. So have a little more respect, please. As a designer, Sakurai is a freaking genius. Every incarnation of Smash has been exciting and fun. And let's say competitive in its own way. Also, you want to evaluate Brawl for what it is not. It is not a fighting game. It is an action game, with fighting and party game elements. Sakurai created, essentially a 4 player action game with a playstyle so unique that even within a genre, it has no equal. It is a genre by itself. So, that crap about changing director... that shouldn't happen. Look at what happenned to Majora's Mask which Shigeru Miyamoto didn't directed. Sakurai is the father of Smash.. the Smash you all came to love and play, even with its flaws. Who knows what other director may do with a game he didn't created. Probably he wouldn't know what to do. You criticize without mercy and forget all thoses hours of joy this Series has given you. I will defend Sakurai to the death. As a Game Designer I know it is hard, and I respect his job. Cut the CRAP_! n_n
So because he created Smash, we cannot criticize him in any way? He made mistakes. You cannot deny this. Some of them minor, others huge.
MorpheusVGX
Smash Journeyman
Yes.. you can criticize his work. Off course. And he made mistakes as a human being. Balancing 39 characters has to be really hard. Take any other Fighting game (that probably don't have a community this big) and have all this people play it and find it flaws, glitches, etc .... The results may be even worse. There is something in Game Design called Emergency.. which means that when you create a set of rules you think as balanced, the more they are, it is more likely that someone find a way to use those rules in a way you didn't expected. Then broken maneuvers arise. It happens! like bugs on software. Unfortunately, here we don't have patches. My point is.. yes.. we can criticize this game, but to talk about changing Sakurai is too much. It is too ungrateful for what Sakurai deserves.
Brawl has a ton of glitches and flaws. The only thing that gets worse than that is game-breaking glitches a la SoulCalibur 3. Also, I doubt character balance was one of the important things on Sakurai's list.
The Guilty Gear XX-series are so balanced Bottom Tiers have won Japan's biggest tournaments. Team Fortress 2 is one of the deepest and most balanced FPS:es in history.
Why? Because the creators actually tried really hard to balance things out and they hired capable beta-testers. Sakurai and his beta-testers are so incompetent and/or lazy they couldn't even remove the many jillion glitches in the game that while not gamebreaking are still horrendously annoying and en eyesore as you go "What? Were they too stupid/lazy to remove it? It's not like it'd be hard to notice if you play the game more than once!".
Aether_Lord
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 19, 2007
- Messages
- 126
Sakurai just focused to much on advertisements and special effects that most people rarly pays attention too. Its a good party game just not a well developed game towards multiplayer mode. It's noticable that it is less poorly made compared to melee on the multiplayer mode. Some of the priorities he has put in the game sometimes dont even make sense. A sword getting the same amount of priority as kirby's foot is weird. Smash is a form of a fighting game which it is almost utterly impossible to make it non-competitive he might as well not have made it non-competive everyone can't win them together there is always a winner and loser in games, Sakurai should of expected that from people. Most everyone wants to win even kids want to win. Remember you cant win them all life tough Sakurai lifes tough D= its a life lesson we all need -_-
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
I like Smash, but I hate it too. I could have done tons better stuff if I directed. I. Because of that reason, I'm very ticked off with Sakurai. If I could have made the game better, you just know it wasn't good enough. There are so many mistakes, it's sad.
I wouldn't say I hate Sakurai, but I'm very disappointed in him. Really, I'm disappointed with Nintendo in general. IMO, they're a bad company for hardcore gamers. I'd prefer to get a 360 over a Wii. The Wii has nothing on it, and even Twilight Princess had a casual gamer feel?
Nintendo = hardcore gamer killers
I only got a Wii for Smash brothers and a (potential) good game.
I wouldn't say I hate Sakurai, but I'm very disappointed in him. Really, I'm disappointed with Nintendo in general. IMO, they're a bad company for hardcore gamers. I'd prefer to get a 360 over a Wii. The Wii has nothing on it, and even Twilight Princess had a casual gamer feel?
Nintendo = hardcore gamer killers
I only got a Wii for Smash brothers and a (potential) good game.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
This. Ends. this. topic.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Not really, only the people who looked them up online or played against people who used them, because those are litterally the only ways for other people to find out about them. So no, most people that played smash did not hate them, because they simply didn't know about them in the first place.
But you're not sacrificing the bigger crowd! Your sacrificing the portion of the crowd who plays against the smaller crowd, which is even smaller than the smaller crowd itself. Most competative players do not play with casual players, because we find it more fun to play against other competative players! So in reality, the majority of casual players are completely unaffected by us! Seriously, nobody at my school (besides my crew of course) even knew smashboards existed, or that you could L-cancel or wavedash, until we told them about it. And even after that, not one of them cared at all, and they just went back to playing like they normally did. I opted out of their matches because I prefered to play against my crewmates when possible, and even when I did play with them, I just mess around with some character I don't know how to play, because I know that I'm not proving anything by beating up weaker players.
And if you hide some advance techs in there, then the same amount of people will play it, only some of them will play it much, much longer than before, and then new buyers will buy it because people are still playing it.
It would make less than 2% of them upset, because that's litterally how many of them will ever come in contact with somebody who uses them. And even then, they can just leave the match and try again, finding the other 98% of the population. Online actually makes it easier to play against non-competative players, because competative players rarely play online in the first place. They do it every now and then for a good laugh, then they go back to playing with their friends. Seriously, how many good players have you gone against playing "with anyone" in a 4 player free for all with random item settings and stage settings? It's fun, but not where I spend most of my time.
No, the majority of fans found out about wavedashing after we started complaining that it was gone (or they still don't know about it).
Let me break it down for you.
Smashboards is 2% of the population (as you love to point out)
Less than 10% of those competative players (heck, there are a lot of casual players on smashboards too!) actually play against casual players on a regular basis. So 0.2% of the total population.
That 0.2% upsets the casual players they play against, which is the same percentage of the total population (but the competative players themselves are still happy. It's only the casuals who go against them who are upset). So in total, these changes would only upset 0.2% of the total population, while pleasing the other 99.8% who either like the changes, or are unaffected by the changes. This "most casual players hated ATs" thing is BS, since quite frankly, most casual players don't even know about them and very, very rarely ever face anyone who uses them.
They bought melee didn't they? Dispite it being much more technically difficult than SSB64. But wait, I thought casuals didn't like hard games! Maybe it's that a game can be hard and easy at the same time! (oxymoron I know.) The game is easy to pick up and play, is fun even if you don't know what your doing, and has wacky stages and items to spice things up. BUT...there's still more! There's these advance techniques that litterally speed up the gameplay, there's fakeouts to lure attacks, and long lasting combos to take advantage of opponent's once you're inside their head! There's sweetspots, different fall speeds, different weights, DI, smash DI, ASDI, crouch canceling, teching, edgehogging, and all these random little things that will make you play better once learned, and raise the overally skill level of everyone who knows them. Amongst those people, matches become more serious, but also more exciting, as you get direct results for your labor. Meanwhile, the players who don't like this are still having fun with thier stages and items, completely oblivious to the other side (except the select few who are unfortunate enough to face them on a regular basis, but that group is even smaller than the competative group itself). So yes, they would buy it anyway, as they have already done it!
Because three years down the road we would still be playing this game and still encouraging people to buy it if it's a good game. That's why!
Oh yeah, and because those 7million other people don't play against us and would buy it anyway, just like they bought melee.
The casual players who visit smashboards or play against competative players on a regular basis are indeed happier. But which group is bigger? That group or, the competative smashers who play with other competatieve smashers. Logically it is the latter, since the former is but a small portion of that group.
But what about the people who actually do enjoy being exact. The ones who actually like getting better at a game. I get moderately good at every single game I play, because it's fun! Learning all the shortcuts in Sonic games, countering attacks in Dynasty Warriors, stuff like this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHBCH3HaPXI
Those people aren't happy, while the people who play against that group (which is smaller than the group as a whole), are.
But there were already two settings! There was our comstom made setting (no items, list of neutrals, list of counterpicks, time limit, stock) that we used for tournaments or playing with our friends (who were also competative gamers), and there was everything else. In our little world, we played with advance techs at blinding speeds (which were actually not that fast to us), while for the most part, casual players played without advance techs (since most of them either knew what they were and never learned them/never liked them, or didn't know what they were), and were perfectly happy playing against each other. Why exactly couldn't we have that again? Is it for the even smaller group of casuals that actually play against competative players? Because if so, then it really wasn't a business choice at all!
Taking something out=more work that leaving it the same. In the time it took to take all these things out, and program tripping, they could've easily fixed this.
More enjoyable for who? If you didn't use ATs anyway, then how does this even affect you (unless you fight against competative players who did). The answer, it doesn't!
And in that day they could've probably added another item, or another stage builder piece, or done some character balancing, but instead they chose to take out something that we liked and that an even smaller crowd disliked (as opposed to being neutral about them).
And you are only looking at YOUR WORLD. Yiou're not even looking at the casual world. You are looking at the casual players who play against competative players. But everyone else, would've been happier or just as happy had they just left it alone.
Set grab knockback should've been the biggest clue ever, even for random casual players. It's why waveshining worked in melee. And if people were complaining about ATs as much as you say, and the developers were really trying to make the game more friendly for first timers, then this should've been completely obvious. But, character balancing was obviuosly not on their minds at all anyway.
And that is exactly the stereotype that caused this to happen. Have you ever thought that we were actually having fun with our advance techs, and without items? Competative players really should do the playtesting with regards to character balancing, both with items and without items, because obviously their playtesters couldn't find this stuff, but we found it in less than a week.
That's true
That's not true. Competative players very rarely play with anyone, because they know that they'd most likely be playing some 4 player free for all, with random item and stage settings, against some random casual players, which quite frankly most of us don't enjoy. So no, competative players really don't play "with anyone," because it's much more fun to play "with friends." Oh, and don't forget that we're only 2% of the population, with less than 10% of us playing "with anyone," so 99.8% of the time, you won't be playing against us online (unless you give us your friend code and challenge us or something.)
Only even on this board those people are the vast minority, and on the global scale it really isn't an issue 99.8% of the time.
This is not true. This is a common misconception by the casual players who actually visit the boards. Many casual players who go on smash boards or play against competative players know about wavedashing and hated it. That's not a very big group is it?
Which is why they don't play it and just play casually.
So we're not allowed to enjoy it? Is it a sin for a game to appeal to both crowds? A game that everyone could enjoy, implies that there's something there for the hardcore gamers to enjoy too. Seriously, why can't you have both! They already did it and then they took it away!
I thought the focus was supposed to be on fun and not winning, so why does that matter. And it really hasn't changed anything, as competative players still beat casual players most of the time (in the rare event that they fight each other), we just have less fun playing now.
And casual players have these things called friend codes and random match seeking (which is really good for finding the 98% of the population that doesn't play competatively).
You didnn't! My casual friends didn't! And the vast majority of casual players (even the ones who knew about them) didn't! They just critiscized us for doing them and wanted us to not be able to do them!
They didn't before, why would they now? The information was there, but nobody cared to look it up. Those that did care to look it up didn't bother learning them and just critiscized them What makes you think that would change!
But smashboards and competative smash will die much sooner, since people get bored faster. Online is a joke, there's no techs to practice on your own, and tournaments are filled with first timers that never make it past pools anyway, and then they just leave instead of sticking around to meet people and play friendlies to get better. More people would be interested in competative smash if we were doing crazy stuff that they wanted to do but didn't understand yet! I taught one of my friends to L-cancel and now he can't get enough of it!
But the thing is, because there are two seperate groups of people playing this game, there should be two seperate learning curves and skill gaps. Picking up smash for the first time and playing against your friends (who are also just picking up smash), is incredibly easy. There's not preset combos to memorize, there's no high and low block, there's only two attack buttons, all attacks require only one input and one direction. It's actually the easiest fighting game to pick up and play in existance. But at the same time, competative smash is on a whole different playing field, being extremely fast paced, requiring a lot of effort to just get into, before you actually start playing. But this is perfectly fine, because for the people that don't like it, there are millions of others who also don't play it, that you can play against. It really can be easy to appeal to both crowds. You just have to hide the steeper learning curve. Make it appear to be an incredibly simple and easy to pick up game on the surface, but include random techs and tricks without telling anyone, hoping that people will find them (or in the case of sequels, keep the old stuff and add some new stuff too).
Why? They don't play against the stronger players that often, and even when they do, they still get beat anyway. And that's not what I'm interested in in the first place. I don't care what happens when I fight some random guy who's never played before, I care when I fight my crew members and win, but don't have any fun doing it. I care about when people of even skill fight each other, and how intense those matches are, because it's actually the most common matchup. After the first two rounds or so in a tournament, you start fighting people that are relatively close to your level, and the matches should be fun, serious, and intense, all at the same time. And when casual players are fighting against each other, the match is supposed to be laid back, chaotic, and fun, all at the same time. Both sides can be supported by the same game (melee did this quite well, and so does Halo) and it should only be a matter of changing a few settings and changing who you play with.
He tried to please everyone by focusing on pleasing the bigger crowd only, despite it only affecting a very small portion of that crowd, and displeasing a larger crowd.
Wait a minute...
That seems kinda dumb.
Right here! This is exactly what I don't understand! If you explain this then I might change my mind!
Why does the size of the gap matter, if the players on opposing sides of the gap do not play against each other? If both sides stay on their own sides, and only play against their own sides (99.8% of the time), then why does the gap between the two sides matter? It actually only helps those that want to cross over from the casual side to the competative side (vise versa was always really easy), but it's doing so at the expense of that very side that they wanted to cross over to.
I know a wealth of people who's skill level varied in Smash. With Brawl, it tried to bring more balance.
Everyone stands a chance against who? Competative players do stand a chance against competative players. Casual players do stand a chance against casual players. Casual players do not stand a chance against competative players (for the most part). But this matchup is very, very rare, and really should not be considered at all if it's at the expense of either side.
And the casual players who don't play against competative players (which is most of them).
What's the problem again? I though we were trying to make the most people happy. This makes the most people happy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlJtwaR8ZWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlJtwaR8ZWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxcy6vcWXKI
Notice that Eggs won, despite being far less technical than Silent Wolf
Umm...advance techs don't eat up your focus once you learn them. You're able to focus on a match just as much, only now the match as a whole is faster and you have more options and situations to sort through. It actually takes more thinking because now you don't have as much time to react to things, and must plan further ahead (assuming both of you actually know the advance techs).
Mango's Jigglypuff is different than King's jigglypuff. M2K's Marth is different than Azen's Marth, and Cactuar's Marth. Foward's Falco is different than Shiz's falco. Renth's gannondorf is different than Chaddd's gannondorf. Brawl is actually more linear because characters have less safe options in general (in melee, almost every aerial was safe if you had L-canceled, in addition to dash dances and wavedashes being very safe and very quick. Jump canceled grabs were also pretty safe, in addition to projectile camping like you do in brawl, only they could approach you more easily in melee due to the safer approaches to chose from).
Maybe that's because you didn't l-cancel? Almost every aerial could be used as a safe approach, in addition to empty shorthops (which were fast enough to confuse opponents into thinking you'd aerial), wavedash fakeouts, dash dance fakeouts, Falco's SHL, Shiek's Needle cancel, Samus's missle cancel, Triangle jumping (short hop and airdodge back to the ground to dodge an attack), jump canceled grabs, dash canceling (for long distance approaches), just to name a few of them.
It was quite easy to get past overly defensive players in melee. Getting a grab you net you a combo or followup most of the time, and with proper spacing and canceling, you could safely pressure their shield to force them to move (which was often predictable and easily punishable.
That's true, but it's also the opinion of the majority of people who went the tournament. We're actually having a melee tournament instead of a brawl one next month.
It came out 4 months ago. It's not an excuse anymore. That's plenty of time to practice for when you go to a tournament.
And you're only looking at your spectrum. What about the people who do want to take it seriously? What about the people that actually enjoy getting better (the majority of competative smashers). Shouldn't there be something for them too? Or is it only your crowd that deserves happiness, since they're "bigger" (even though the interactions between the two crowds is much smaller)
And they couldn't leave them in anyway, for the people who do find it fun?
So they completely disregard our crowd to pamper the players...who play against our crowd? If that's the case, then they really were focusing on the "smaller crowd" over the larger one, because the larger crowd...does not play against us.
DDD's grab range is very big. Projectile spam is not hard for any experienced player to deal with, but it is very hard on beginners. I said that they were more barriers, meaning that they're hard for someone who's never experienced to get around. They are immediately labeled "cheap" and discourage newer players. DDD's chaingrab, Falco's chaingrab, Ice Climbers infinite, Falco's laser spam, Snake's tilts, Metaknight, ect. All of them are easily dealt with by a vetran player, but newer players just get destroyed by these tactics alone. The same was true in melee, only this time, they tactics are decievingly easy and the newer player doesn't understand why they're losing to them.
If you were a space animal, Shiek, Gannondorf, or some of the low tiers (against Shiek), then you could be chaingrabbed. In brawl, nearly every character can be chaingrabbed by somebody. But chaingrabbing is deceptively easy on the eyes now, and newer players feel bad for losing to such a "simple" tactic, as uposed to the "complicated" ones in melee.
You don't, because it's much simpler to just play with your casual friends and not go to tournaments. How are you supposed to fight someone who spams Falco's laser and shine in brawl? Or someone that spams shuttle loop, glide attack, and tornado? It's even more frustrating than the stuff in melee, because at least the melee stuff seemed hard to do (it really wasn't. Wavedashing was two buttons. L-canceling was only one.).
ORLY? How often do you go to tournaments? How often do you actually chose to play against these people, instead of playing against other casuals? How often does the 98% chose to play against the 2% and vice versa? How often is this option unavoidable? It doesn't effect them, because they don't play against us, and they don't use it themselves.
Yes, if they play against us they are effected, but the majority of them don't. The majority of us don't. Because, quite frankly, we disagree on a lot of things, and would rather just play with our own crowds. That's why things that affect one crowd do not directly effect the other. Because they are very seperate crowds.
Actually they'd have to be happier with brawl's multiplayer than melee's multiplayer, not brawl as a whole over melee as a whole. Excluding online of course. And logically, he would've pleased more people if he had pleased us and displeased the casual players who play against us, because our group is bigger than that group, and the casual players who don't play against us don't care what happens to us anyway.
Because the other 98% don't really care either way, since they don't play against the 2%. That's why. What happens to us does not effect them, since they don't play against us (or rather, we don't play against them). So pleasing us while pleasing them is quite easy, as all you have to do is hide the stuff that pleases us, and not tell them about it (that way, most of them won't know, and those who do won't care to learn it because nobody they know uses it). It's really that easy.
And if the majority is appathetic about it, then the only ones left to please are the minority.
They will give you money anyway, since they don't know the other stuff is there, nor do they really care about it.
They're happy regardless, so might as well please the other people too.
Guess what, you're not that either! You're 0.2% (the amount of casual players that fight competative players on a regular basis). Why should he bother pleasing you over us? We bring him more money!
Really, have you ever once looked at it that way? You emphasize how small of a group we are, but in doing so, it only means that things done in our group have even less impact on the other group, and that pleasing us will not displease them. If he pleases our 2%, and displeases your 0.2%, while the other 97.8% doesn't give a ****, then he's actually pleasing more people than if he displeases our 2%, pleasing your 0.2%, while the other 97.8% still doesn't give a ****.
Isn't that a good thing? Is that maximizing sales and enjoyment for everyone? Why shouldn't they be doing this!!
And why not if the casual players enjoy it anyway? Doesn't that please more people? The people you are displeasing are the small group of casuals that play against competative players. You are pleasing more people!
A game everyone can enjoy includes competative players, or should we not be considered people since we play a game seriously?
Because the other side doesn't care! They're happy anyway! It's us who's unhappy, and as long as the other side is still happy, don't you think he should fix it? 98% of the people like brawl the way it is that's true. But is there any reason not to please the other 2%. You'll make 0.2% unhappy, 2% happy, and keep the other 97.8% for a total of 99.8% happiness!
A game can be easy and hard at the same time! It's already been done. The casual scene is easy to get into. The competative scene is hard to get into. It's perfect! Now all you need is character balance and you're all set for the best game ever!
And by making it hard, you get more rewards for your hard work and the game lasts longer, making it a better product.
see what I did there?
But here's an idea, lets put both of them in! Make it easy to pick up and play, hide the hard part so people aren't intimidated, but leave a hard part in so that people never get bored of the game!
But they failed at this! Where is the complex part! Yes, I can out think my opponent, but you can do that in any multiplayer game in existance. Where's the hard part for me to sink my teeth into?
Talk to most fans outside of smashboards and you'll see that most are really happy about melee! Then talk to fans on smashboards, and you'll see that most are really happy about melee!
Do you not see how having both systems pleases more people? How making a game simple to learn and impossible to master can make it a very popular and long lasting game? If one crowd doesn't care, and the other crowd does care, then you please the crowd that does care regardless of size, because you're not affecting the other crowd anyway.