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Infinites(A.K.A. low-risk high-reward combos) should be limited

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Arcansi

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The 20 year history of the fighting game scene where the only things banned have been characters that render winning with any other character an impossible task, or bugs that render the game literally unplayable?
Also a history where the metagame hasn't been given time to develop very often in between games.

An argument of 'find a way around it' works when the metagame hasn't staled out.

Note that your not even right, because of the infinites in MvC3 and the fact that the other fighting games balance their games meticulously.
 

Alien Vision

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I admire Arcansi still going after how many people disagreed with this rather ludicrous judgment.

I think we have to accept what was given to us for what it is. Trying to change it would make it artificial, and won't allow us to feel rewarded for going against the pre-existent odds.

:063:
 

polarity

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Also a history where the metagame hasn't been given time to develop very often in between games.

An argument of 'find a way around it' works when the metagame hasn't staled out.
MvC2 Iron Man infinite was just as easy, probably easier in fact than any of the infinites in MvC3 and was not banned in the ~9 year period from its discovery to now. Of course there's plenty of other MvC2 infinites too.

Note that your not even right, because of the infinites in MvC3 and the fact that the other fighting games balance their games meticulously.
You seem to have trouble grasping the difference between a game being patched and the players trying to fix the game with rules outside of the game itself.
 

Arcansi

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Haha, the community banning something themselves? In fighting games outside of Smash, the only rules are rounds/time/MAYBE banned characters.
See the argument above.

Anyway, any rules (there aren't tons) that buffs/nerfs characters aren't done for specific matchups, but for characters as a whole. You are suggesting to change something for separate matchups that isn't something universal. i.e. grab release infinites on Lucas/Ness from Marth, unlike something like a LGL (which is the 'tons of rules' you mentioned I'm assuming) which affects a certain character on a scale of the entire game.
Stagelist buffs/nerfs characters.

Time limit.

Neutral stages.

Stocks

Items

Life Stealing

Team Attack

ALL buff/nerf characters.

Understand?

NOTE: I would only really be looking at removing IC's chaingrab on the +3's IC has.
 

Arcansi

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I admire Arcansi still going after how many people disagreed with this rather ludicrous judgment.
You were cool, and then you were mean.

I think we have to accept what was given to us for what it is. Trying to change it would make it artificial, and won't allow us to feel rewarded for going against the pre-existent odds.
Will vs Rich Brown is an example of how we don't.

MvC2 Iron Man infinite was just as easy, probably easier in fact than any of the infinites in MvC3 and was not banned in the ~9 year period from its discovery to now. Of course there's plenty of other MvC2 infinites too.
Probably why it wasn't banned. MvC2 was all about infinites.

You seem to have trouble grasping the difference between a game being patched and the players trying to fix the game with rules outside of the game itself.
They would've done it, had Capcom not.

Of course, this is assuming the metagame staled out (something you missed)

Note that you mention they buff/nerf characters

How many of those rules are in place DIRECTLY because of matchups?
Stagelist.

Also, its eight matchups that are greatly improved by this rule. I don't see why you are against it.
 

Arcansi

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Why only ic's, there are tons of other characters with 3+ match ups.
Take it up with the community.

EDIT: It feels like you guys are just afraid of change because I'm not seeing any logical argument other then a comparison to a game which doesn't even use the same win condition as us.
 

Arcansi

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I would like, then, the 8 matchups this greatly improves, as well as which matchups the stagelist was tailored for if you don't mind.
ICs vs DDD/Kirby/Bowser/Shiek/Fox/Samus/Falcon/Ganon.

Stagelist is tailored for ground based matchups, as all the starters are ground based and aerial based stages such as Norfair are banned.
 

polarity

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Probably why it wasn't banned. MvC2 was all about infinites.
Since you clearly know nothing about the game, why are you trying to act like you understand its community?

They would've done it, had Capcom not.

Of course, this is assuming the metagame staled out (something you missed)
What's your basis for this when there's absolutely no precedent? Plenty of games have enjoyed a long tournament life, especially in Japan where greater player density means older games can enjoy a more stable scene. Alpha 3 got played for 10 years; crouch cancel infinites were not banned. Oh hey, here's a match video from last week for a pretty damn old game, showing something pretty abusable that isn't banned.

Furthermore, if the fighting game scene were inclined to do stuff like this, why would it only apply to infinites? Super Turbo and 3rd Strike are games that are alive and well in Japan and have definitely had time to stabilise, yet you don't see the ST community banning Vega walldive loops (the most braindead strategy in that game) or 3rd Strike banning Chun's SA2 or Yun's SA3.

If "they would've done it", where's your evidence?
 

MysteryRevengerson

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ICs vs DDD/Kirby/Bowser/Shiek/Fox/Samus/Falcon/Ganon.

Stagelist is tailored for ground based matchups, as all the starters are ground based and aerial based stages such as Norfair are banned.
"Ground based" is something that is universal, not character matchup specific.

All of the characters you listed are not seen often, and adding this rule would hardly increase the number of players. You say people fear change, but you still don't have a concrete solution nor would this rule affect the game as a whole.
 

Arcansi

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Since you clearly know nothing about the game, why are you trying to act like you understand its community?
Got false information. Sorry.


What's your basis for this when there's absolutely no precedent? Plenty of games have enjoyed a long tournament life, especially in Japan where greater player density means older games can enjoy a more stable scene. Alpha 3 got played for 10 years; crouch cancel infinites were not banned.
Japan has a MUCH different community/stigma for this, so that isn't even usable.

Furthermore, if the fighting game scene were inclined to do stuff like this, why would it only apply to infinites? Super Turbo and 3rd Strike are games that are alive and well in Japan and have definitely had time to stabilise, yet you don't see the ST community banning Vega walldive loops (the most braindead strategy in that game) or 3rd Strike banning Chun's SA2 or Yun's SA3.
See Above.

If "they would've done it", where's your evidence?
The North American Community.

I'm not saying it's 100%, but it is way more likely than non. Note that this argument doesn't even seem to apply to the argument at hand, does it?

I mean, they dont even share a win condition.
 

Arcansi

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"Ground based" is something that is universal, not character matchup specific.
Almost anyone vs IC's. You suddenly see them playing aerial based instead of ground based (if they normally would play ground based or balanced).

All of the characters you listed are not seen often, and adding this rule would hardly increase the number of players. You say people fear change, but you still don't have a concrete solution nor would this rule affect the game as a whole.
http://www.slideshare.net/frankcalberg/5-reasons-why-people-resist-change

As to why people fear change.

I never said it would increase or decrease the number of players. I also never said it would affect the game as a whole.

I plan to get a concrete rule once I can get everyone on board (or it is needed for further discussion, which it isn't atm).
 

Arcansi

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Those were the two main games in the USA up until SF4 came out too, what now?
Different. Games.

I'm going to need to know why this is relevant at all.


Saying some words is not evidence.
Essentially all we're doing is saying some words (however because of common sense...).

I know they most likely would've banned the infinites if given the chance/asked the question because once someone could do it reliably it overcentralizes the game on that character.

Ok then, what is the point of this rule?
To remove infinites?
 

polarity

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Different. Games.

I'm going to need to know why this is relevant at all.
They were games that enjoyed a long tournament life (so the "metagame" had time to develop), and suffered from abusable strategies that "overcentralized" the game heavily, yet those strategies were not banned or addressed in any way.


I know they most likely would've banned the infinites if given the chance/asked the question because once someone could do it reliably it overcentralizes the game on that character.
Except this has never been a factor in banning anything else in a fighting game, ever, except in the extreme case that the game becomes literally "you must pick this character or you will not ever, EVER win."
 

Arcansi

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They were games that enjoyed a long tournament life (so the "metagame" had time to develop), and suffered from abusable strategies that "overcentralized" the game heavily, yet those strategies were not banned or addressed in any way.

Except this has never been a factor in banning anything else in a fighting game, ever, except in the extreme case that the game becomes literally "you must pick this character or you will not ever, EVER win."
This is where you should come to realize them being different games is what makes your comparison not work.

We LGL even though you don't have to pick MK to win.

EDIT: Fixed stupid wording.
 

BlueXenon

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I want IC's banned. They are too different than all the other characters. They can be losing by 2 stocks and then can catch up using chaingrabs. But I want MK banned first. MK has no real cons and many pro's.
 

polarity

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This is where you should come to realize them being different games is what makes your comparison not work.

We LGL even though you don't have to pick MK to win.

EDIT: Fixed stupid wording.
Quit moving the goalposts. You're the one who claimed that the MvC3 community would ban infinites and now, when we find you have no evidence and that there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, you cry "they're different games!"
 

Arcansi

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Quit moving the goalposts. You're the one who claimed that the MvC3 community would ban infinites and now, when we find you have no evidence and that there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, you cry "they're different games!"
You actually have no evidence that the MvC3 community would do anything.

And they are different games.
 

DeLux

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Why do you attack infinites specifically as the method to solve issues in matchup parity?

Why not have players play with handicap set to "auto" while in tournament play so it covers all uneven matchups in real time?
 

popsofctown

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There's a lot of things I could say in this thread.

I'll just say that whatever enforcement idea you have for this is unrealistic.
 

ElDominio

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I think SMJ made alt accounts called "BlueZelda" and "Arcansi"

Anyone agree?
 

Mekos

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*thread title on SRK or melee boards*
"Brawl Players Ban the only Combos they have"
Stop making foolish troll comments and try to have a good discussion. If you disagree say why without some wild example.

And if you think an infinite such as a standing ifiniite is a combo then u have serious issues.
 

Tesh

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Stop making foolish troll comments and try to have a good discussion. If you disagree say why without some wild example.

And if you think an infinite such as a standing ifiniite is a combo then u have serious issues.
Its a grab or release that combos into into another grab. Or I guess to you, its okay to dthrow-uptilt but not okay to dthrow-dthrow.

Its kind of hard to argue with people proposing a selfish double standard. I'm sure you wouldn't take me seriously if I suggested we legalize Temple Hyrule to be fair to Sonic mains.
 

polarity

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You actually have no evidence that the MvC3 community would do anything.
Evidence from the history of fighting games, whose community leaders and tournament organisers are the same people who lead the MvC3 community and run MvC3 tournaments, is more evidence than you've provided, which is nothing at all.
 

-LzR-

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I want IC's banned. They are too different than all the other characters. They can be losing by 2 stocks and then can catch up using chaingrabs. But I want MK banned first. MK has no real cons and many pro's.
And they can be hit with a single move and be separated and Nana simply dies and then you can't cg anymore.

Also this thread is top3 dumbest I have read for the past 3 years k.
 

Ghostbone

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Omg arcansi you're so dumb.

What you want to do would destroy the community and we wouldn't even be playing Brawl anymore, that's why it's unviable.
 

infiniteV115

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I don't understand what you have against things that are low-risk high-reward
Isn't that the point of making good decisions?

Combos require practice to learn, skill to be able to start them, and consistency and precision to keep them going and to get them often.

Isn't this what we want from our players? Practice, skill, consistency and precision? (I realize consistency and precision fall under skill)

If you're going to choose a character like DK when you know he can get ***** by DDD because of how DK is designed, you deserve to have to put up with avoiding DDDs grabs, and getting punished for not doing so.
If you're going to play against ICs and not safely avoid grabs when you should know that 1 grab could equal death, you deserve to get punished for getting grabbed, because you didn't play the MU correctly.

Why are you trying to remove the strengths and weaknesses that characters have in certain MUs?
 

Zankoku

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Reaching optimal parity in a game without having a ridiculous number of rules restricting things would best be done by banning all characters and all stages from the game except for one of each.

Brawl (not even the series of Smash games itself) is the only game I know of that has imposed mid-game restrictions to play (ledge grab limit).
 

Akaku94

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While we're at it, let's ban projectiles because they give certain characters big mu advantages... then let's go after everyone that can kill in one move, because that's even easier to hit with than an infinite... Sheesh...
 

Kewkky

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I tried to tell Arcansi that it wasn't a good idea, but he just said I don't have common sense. >_>

Hopefully he replies to all the posts addressing him to defend his point, considering this thread is still very young.
 

fkacyan

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I tried to tell Arcansi that it wasn't a good idea, but he just said I don't have common sense. >_>

Hopefully he replies to all the posts addressing him to defend his point, considering this thread is still very young.
There is no defending his point. It is scrub mentality to want to do something like this and has no place in competitive discussion.

I'm confused as to why it isn't locked.
 
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