infinites and stalling tactics - tournament legal?

[Twin Dreams]

@Twin Dreams: Why are you so keen to ban characters if the tactic can't be defined? Banning characters should only occur if pretty much their every move is broken and they are undefeatable. Not because of a silly infinite.

Let's say there's 1 character in the game that has an easy executing infinite. Let's say (hypothetically speaking) that a character could infinitely combo a person while doing a natural A,A,A attack. However, in brawl, you merely hold down the A button. This hypothetical character would hit you with his neutral A attack and then hold down the A button for 8 minutes and win the match.


How do you handle this situation? (A character having an easy executing infinite)

How do you put a limit on it? (A, A, Aaaaaaaaaaaa for 30 seconds. A, A, Aaaaaaa for 30 seconds.)
Do you ban his neutral A combo? (A, A, Aaaaaaa..)
Do you ban part of it? (A,A or A)
Do you ban on his neutral A altogether?
Do you ban the character?


Banning the character or the use of the neutral A is the only way to effectively ban this combo. Imagine now, if that character had an infinite combo that used a variety of moves? How do you handle them being able to use a variety of moves?


1. Ban the Combo duration. (People will repetitively use it at max duration.)
2. Ban the Combo. (People will use part of the combo, but not the whole.)
3. Ban each individual move of the combo. (Difficult to enforce)
4. Ban the character. (Easy to enforce.)




If there was an easy infinite combo available int he game, that was inescapable (thus being banned, in normal tournaments, but we'll speak hypothetical) the game will devolve into each player picking the character with an infinite combo and the winner would be the first person to land it on the guy.



For the practicality of tournaments, if a character as an easy, infinite combo that is inescaspable, it would be proper to ban the character completely.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I simply look at infinites the same way I look at 0 to death combos, they're both essentially the same thing. And really long infinites, aren't the same thing as stalling. Stalling would be like getting one hit with Jiggs then camping in one spot under the stage that only she can get to until the time runs out. Even though some infinites can take a long time, at least some actual fighting is taking place.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I simply look at infinites the same way I look at 0 to death combos, they're both essentially the same thing. And really long infinites, aren't the same thing as stalling. Stalling would be like getting one hit with Jiggs then camping in one spot under the stage that only she can get to until the time runs out. Even though some infinites can take a long time, at least some actual fighting is taking place.

As I.T.P. said, the point of the topic was what if a player was using an accepted infinite with a means to stall? (Assuming such an infinite existed.) To which, I maintain that if such an infinite existed and, for whatever reason, could not be banned. It would get the character banned or the game would not be able to achieve a respectable level in tournaments. Since game play would revolve around this specific infinite.

 

[Wheelz]

I would say if it passes a set time like idk 30 seconds then it could be considered stalling and a warning would be issued to the opponent.

 

[Corner-Trap]

As I.T.P. said, the point of the topic was what if a player was using an accepted infinite with a means to stall? (Assuming such an infinite existed.) To which, I maintain that if such an infinite existed and, for whatever reason, could not be banned. It would get the character banned or the game would not be able to achieve a respectable level in tournaments. Since game play would revolve around this specific infinite.

In that case we should still allow them. Putting a time limit on an infinite is like saying you can only do combos that reach this specific time frame.

I would say if it passes a set time like idk 30 seconds then it could be considered stalling and a warning would be issued to the opponent.

30 seconds is not enough time for the IC's iceblock lock to deal much damage. Some infinites simply take a long time in the first place to rack up damage.

 

[Hitzel]

In that case we should still allow them. Putting a time limit on an infinite is like saying you can only do combos that reach this specific time frame.



30 seconds is not enough time for the IC's iceblock lock to deal much damage. Some infinites simply take a long time in the first place to rack up damage.

Allowing them stops the game from being tournament viable because of stalling. The characters capable of doing this have to be banned, or the game can't be played in tournaments. Pick your poison.

Honestly, the only solid solution I can think of is team matches...

 

[Twin Dreams]

In that case we should still allow them. Putting a time limit on an infinite is like saying you can only do combos that reach this specific time frame.

Allow the infinite combo? Then the tournament will devolve to the first player to use the infinite. However, with a time limit restriction, the player to hit with it most often.

30 seconds is not enough time for the IC's iceblock lock to deal much damage. Some infinites simply take a long time in the first place to rack up damage.

Ok, so you're fighting an IC.

IC lock for 29 seconds.
IC lock for 29 seconds.
IC lock for 29 seconds.

I mean, as long as they can keep setting it up, it's the exact same thing. And they only would have to land it twice for each minute in the game. Which can rack up a lot of game time.

Also, how do you approach this as someone holding a tournament? You now need a way to tell for how long an IC lock has been going on. How would you implement that? Have a stop watch and time it whenever a player starts it? What if two people are playing ICs at once? More stop watches and more staff members are needed. And an awful lot of extra trouble, that could've been avoided with banning Ice Block Lock all together. (Not to mention that with human error, it's actually going on for a little longer than 30 seconds if it lands closer to it. How will you deal with this issue if a player pressures a judge for the exact timing?)



From a tournament perspective, you want to keep things simple. The LAST thing you need is having dubious rules. You need them clear and concise. Putting a time limit on the duration of a combo is not the way to handle the situation.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Allowing them stops the game from being tournament viable because of stalling. The characters capable of doing this have to be banned, or the game can't be played in tournaments. Pick your poison.

Honestly, the only solid solution I can think of is team matches...

Team Match:


My team: Infinite Character x2

I combo one guy.
My team mate combo's the other guy.


We win at game end.




A character with an infinite combo that can't be banned must result in the character being banned. That's all there is to it.

 

[chickenwing2k2]

notice how VGamerJoe doesn't post here anymore....lol. ****in Trash....

oh yea....back on topic. Both should be banned..hands down. Stupid **** like that and other glitches (not particulary in this game) kills the community. Whatever the game may be at that time

 

[I.T.P]

Team Match:


My team: Infinite Character x2

I combo one guy.
My team mate combo's the other guy.


We win at game end.




A character with an infinite combo that can't be banned must result in the character being banned. That's all there is to it.

fourtunately for us, no such character exists as of yet.

Falco's laser lock and IC's block lock can both be banned for infinite use, and same for DDD's standing infinite grab, in which you can clearly see whether it's used as an infinite or as a stall.

but these things should be tourney tested before banned, that's for sure.

 

[Twin Dreams]

fourtunately for us, no such character exists as of yet.

Falco's laser lock and IC's block lock can both be banned for infinite use, and same for DDD's standing infinite grab, in which you can clearly see whether it's used as an infinite or as a stall.

but these things should be tourney tested before banned, that's for sure.

If someone discovers an infinite stalling combo that can't be banned, then it would go something like this.



Player A discovers combo.
A wins tournament(s).
Players B,C,D,E.... learn combo.
Infinite Character wins all tournaments.

Character is banned.


That's worse case scenario. A better scenario is that something is found that can counter the infinite. Making it a near-infinite combo. Which wouldn't be banned.

(This, of course, is all subjective to the game. Given the way Brawl works, I can't see this happening with any character. )

 

[EternalCrusade]

Well, I mean they put them in the game. If they didn't want people to use them, why put them in the game? And, yes, I did say all stages should be legal.

I don't think they MEANT to put in things like lazer lock. I mean, they didn't all sit around and decide "you know what? lets make it so falco can just keep shooting a downed opponent forever...yea thats good, write that down"

So, stalling is illegal? Like, you can't just run around the level and dodge? But, usually tournaments are stock and not time. Maybe in your case.

Have you ever been to a tournament? Usually they're stock AND time

 

[Corner-Trap]

Infinites have been in fighting games for a long time, way before Smash ever had a competitive scene, and all of those infinites were allowed in tournament play. Sometimes I hate the fact that most smash players don't know much about the tournament scene history for fighting games.

 

[Brahma]

Infinites don't refer to the rapid A combos, but rather things like Dedede chain/infinite grabs. On DK, Bowser, Samus, Luigi, and Mario, D3 can grab infiniely over and over again, and as long as he doesn't mistime it and fills a few conditions for Mario/Luigi/Samus, he can just repeat it as long as he wants and if you get into higher % he can just Fthrow for the kill. He can do this to all characters AFAIK on wall stages. This means that being grabbed once can potentially take away one stock.

DK also looks to have a few potential wall infinites, and a few others presumably do too.

Something like laser lock/iceblock lock can take a minute or so until terrain interferes, and by that time it is possible to have racked up some damage if done from one end of a stage to another. I don't know exactly how much damage can be done. But not anything like Dedede chains. Since something like this can't be done as easily, doesn't lead to a potential free stock from 0%, and can't stall infinitely, I don't really have problems with it.

VGJoe: I don't think anyone has an actual problem with your join date, but rather the fact that you seem to be relatively new to competitive play, and don't fully understand the reasoning behind the techniques you are arguing about.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Infinites have been in fighting games for a long time, way before Smash ever had a competitive scene, and all of those infinites were allowed in tournament play. Sometimes I hate the fact that most smash players don't know much about the tournament scene history for fighting games.

I understand that infinites have been around for a while. (see: Marvel vs. Capcom)


But having 1 character in a game have an infinite is a ban on the character.


Why:

Because EVERYONE would use that 1 character. Whoever wouldn't use this character, better get use to losing, because if the opponent lands one hit, you instantly lose the match. This devolves the entirety of the game of X vs. X and whoever get hits first loses.



"What if more than one character has infinites?"

Well, that's a tougher question. If some of the characters had them, then they would be banned. Because the game would be dominated down to those few characters.

However, if most of the crew had infinites, that's a different story. However, it changes the game completely! (Unless there's some new revolutionary technique that can be applied to all characters to create infinite combos that are easy to implement.)

So, assuming that someone finds this underlying infinite combo mechanic, and it can be applied to the majority of the cast. Then I can say that Brawl has a CHANCE at having a decent tournament scene.

At that point, it'll really depend on the community.


And, of course, the infinite combo's I'm talking about are inescapable once started and can be landed pretty easily.


EDIT:

So, assuming that someone finds this underlying infinite combo mechanic, and it can be applied to the majority of the cast. Then I can say that Brawl has a CHANCE at having a decent tournament scene.

What I meant here, was that it would have a decent tournament scene while allowing characters to infinite in tournaments.

 

[SFJake]

Infinites have been in fighting games for a long time, way before Smash ever had a competitive scene, and all of those infinites were allowed in tournament play. Sometimes I hate the fact that most smash players don't know much about the tournament scene history for fighting games.

Doesn't make it less ********. Infinites shouldn't be allowed, end of story, what the hell is there to discuss here? If the player can't and will not escape (assuming the guy doesn't make a timing mistake), then its an infinites and shouldn't be allowed, how is that **** complex?

For example, Falco's laser lock on FD is not infinites, since the guy will eventually escape out of it. Cheap, but not infinite, so its allowed. Get him against a wall? Not allowed.

If people can't just ban this and need to waste 4 pages to understand this, then I understand why so many peoples hates tournaments.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Doesn't make it less ********. Infinites shouldn't be allowed, end of story, what the hell is there to discuss here? If the player can't and will not escape (assuming the guy doesn't make a timing mistake), then its an infinites and shouldn't be allowed, how is that **** complex?

For example, Falco's laser lock on FD is not infinites, since the guy will eventually escape out of it. Cheap, but not infinite, so its allowed. Get him against a wall? Not allowed.

If people can't just ban this and need to waste 4 pages to understand this, then I understand why so many peoples hates tournaments.

The point of the original argument was what if something similar of laser locking was used to stall. (I say similiar because it isn't infinite on a flat stage.)


This would be an infinite stall that's down on the opponent. As opposed to peach bombing, for example.



The reason why you can't just "ban infinites" is because you have to implement the ban into the rules. How do you ban an infinite? If the infinite is consisted of 5 moves that went like this...


1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5....

How do you ban that?

What if the person does..

1,2,3,4,5 breaks it, then 1,2,3,4,5 breaks it then, 1,2,3,4,5

or what if they do

2,3,4,5
or
1,2,3,4,
or
5,1,2,3

How do you deal with these in a tournament situation as a staff member? You have to WORK it into the rules. I'm sure that most people would like to ban infinites. However, there is no good way to ban them. (At least not the infinites that are being discussed currently.)

 

[SFJake]

I understand the complexity on that part, but as far as I know, no infinites in Smash are but one moves done again and again and again. Proves me wrong if I am please, I don't keep in touch with everything.

If thats true and remain true, that makes them easier to deal with.

 

[Brahma]

The reason why you can't just "ban infinites" is because you have to implement the ban into the rules. How do you ban an infinite? If the infinite is consisted of 5 moves that went like this...


1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5....

How do you ban that?

What if the person does..

1,2,3,4,5 breaks it, then 1,2,3,4,5 breaks it then, 1,2,3,4,5

or what if they do

2,3,4,5
or
1,2,3,4,
or
5,1,2,3

How do you deal with these in a tournament situation as a staff member? You have to WORK it into the rules. I'm sure that most people would like to ban infinites. However, there is no good way to ban them. (At least not the infinites that are being discussed currently.)

If the technique is escapable in between repetitions, then it is not an infinite.

Something like Dedede infinite grab could be banned after a certain number of repetitions.

So far these infinites and stall techniques listed are the only ones found and proven, and until something else is found I think this thread would be better served discussing these proven infinite/stalls and less on debating theoretical combos.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I understand the complexity on that part, but as far as I know, no infinites in Smash are but one moves done again and again and again. Proves me wrong if I am please, I don't keep in touch with everything.

If thats true and remain true, that makes them easier to deal with.

Right, the point of the topic was how to deal with an infinite combo used for stalling that can't be banned. As of now, there is not unbannable infinites. So the point is moot, I'm assuming it was just a hypothetical question that was asked by the OP out of curiosity.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Every other fighting game community aside from smash views infinites as nothing more than 100% combos(or in the case of smash 0 to death combos). Infinites have been allowed in fighting game tournaments for more than a decade, so why are we suddenly going to turn around and start banning them? Honestly though, how in the world are you going to enforce this rule? By keeping a time limit, or damage limit? It's going to be pretty hard to do that when you don't even know when the player will do it. How about y'all take a break and read this.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

 

[Twin Dreams]

If the technique is escapable in between repetitions, then it is not an infinite.

Something like Dedede infinite grab could be banned after a certain number of repetitions.

Right, so, you haven't answered the issue. How do you ban the combo in the rules of the tournament? Because they can just repeatedly use parts of the combo repetitively.



Also, putting a duration or limit on an infinite combo doesn't work. Because you will need to administer staff to watch over every match so that you don't have a "Player A"'s word over "Player B"'s word.

infinite grabs, I could see, you might be able to put a limit on that so it's easy to tell. However, chain grabbing is the only thing you can really use a number on and you still need to monitor the entire duration of all matches to watch for it.

 

[SFJake]

It could simply be to the other player to notice and say something against the infinite the other guy is doing on him. If the matches would all be recorded, would make things easier (since people couldn't start lying). If only we had nothing but nice folks in this world, wouldn't make it so hard.

I wish. When we play, all we say is "hey, stop doing that infinite" and as good players, we stop. But in competition, peoples are not always nice and don't give a crap about what is fair

 

[Twin Dreams]

Every other fighting game community aside from smash views infinites as nothing more than 100% combos(or in the case of smash 0 to death combos). Infinites have been allowed in fighting game tournaments for more than a decade, so why are we suddenly going to turn around and start banning them? Honestly though, how in the world are you going to enforce this rule? By keeping a time limit, or damage limit? It's going to be pretty hard to do that when you don't even know when the player will do it. How about y'all take a break and read this.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

I don't think infinite combos should be banned. (Unless you cannot control your character. Such as IC freeze glitch, but that's not really an infinite combo....)



My whole purpose here is to clarify things.


if 1 character had an infinite = character ban or devolution of tournament scene.


That has been my major point, so I'm confused as to whether I'm arguing on your side or against it, Corner-Trap. lol

 

[Twin Dreams]

It could simply be to the other player to notice and say something against the infinite the other guy is doing on him. If the matches would all be recorded, would make things easier (since people couldn't start lying). If only we had nothing but nice folks in this world, wouldn't make it so hard.

I wish. When we play, all we say is "hey, stop doing that infinite" and as good players, we stop. But in competition, peoples are not always nice and don't give a crap about what is fair

My Wii doesn't know what a "good" person is. It does recognize who wins and loses though. And I'll tell you what, I will not limit myself to any honor some other preconceived notions or ideals except to those defined in the rules of the tournament. Because I'm a "competitive" player, and I expect the same from every person I face.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I don't think infinite combos should be banned. (Unless you cannot control your character. Such as IC freeze glitch, but that's not really an infinite combo....)



My whole purpose here is to clarify things.


if 1 character had an infinite = character ban or devolution of tournament scene.


That has been my major point, so I'm confused as to whether I'm arguing on your side or against it, Corner-Trap. lol

It's a bad idea to ban infinites in the first place, so banning characters just because they have an infinite is no better. The Ice Climbers had an infinite in Melee, yet the competitive scene didn't devolve into IC vs. IC matches. We can't really decide how broken something is until we have tournament results to prove it.

EDIT:

It could simply be to the other player to notice and say something against the infinite the other guy is doing on him. If the matches would all be recorded, would make things easier (since people couldn't start lying). If only we had nothing but nice folks in this world, wouldn't make it so hard.

I wish. When we play, all we say is "hey, stop doing that infinite" and as good players, we stop. But in competition, peoples are not always nice and don't give a crap about what is fair

Thats one of the most ill-conceived honor systems I have ever heard of. Do you honestly think that could possibly work in a tournament setting?

 

[Twin Dreams]

It's a bad idea to ban infinites in the first place, so banning characters just because they have an infinite is no better. The Ice Climbers had an infinite in Melee, yet the competitive scene didn't devolve into IC vs. IC matches. We can't really decide how broken something is until we have tournament results to prove it.

That's because ICs true infinites were very hard to land consistently. (especially in the heat of battle, and low friction probably position for it even harder.)


Though, I agree, it will always come down to what happens in tournaments. I maintain that if a character at an infinite combo that was easy to land and use, then most players would learn how to do it. The reason why ICs infinite didn't catch on, was because of their difficulty.



I agree that infinites should not be banned. (Not any that have been found yet, anyway.)


If you pick a character that can be infinitely thrown by DDD, well, you accept that as a risk when selecting your character, and if your opponent happens to pick DDD, you better be good at dodging grabs. You accept the character and all of it's short comings when you pick it.

 

[Corner-Trap]

That's because ICs true infinites were very hard to land consistently. (especially in the heat of battle, and low friction probably position for it even harder.)


Though, I agree, it will always come down to what happens in tournaments. I maintain that if a character at an infinite combo that was easy to land and use, then most players would learn how to do it. The reason why ICs infinite didn't catch on, was because of their difficulty.



I agree that infinites should not be banned. (Not any that have been found yet, anyway.)


If you pick a character that can be infinitely thrown by DDD, well, you accept that as a risk when selecting your character, and if your opponent happens to pick DDD, you better be good at dodging grabs. You accept the character and all of it's short comings when you pick it.

Well if you're going by difficulty level, then all the known infinites should definitely be allowed. All four of the IC's infinites are severely harder to pull off than a wobble.

 

[Baconater]

I'm glad this thread got back on topic. I feel like if an infinite doesn't abuse a glitch or the nature of smash, well then it should be ok. Like wobbling i was ok with, waveshine against a wall i wasn't. Wobbling just fit the characters of the ice climbers and it made up for some of their shortcomings. Waveshining against a wall was just obscene (i know i may be biased since i think that fox is such a good character in melee only because of wavedashing, I'd put a few characters above him without wavedashing). I agree with Twin Dreams about the whole DDD risk, but at the same time i think that this is a somewhat exceptional instance. If an infinite only works against certain characters, then i'm fine with it. If it works against everyone and takes no skill to perform, i'm not fine with it i.e. laser lock.

 

[2DLogic]

The issue of laser lock, and I'd assume "Iceb-lock", can be completely avoided by teching the fall, correct? It may take no skill to perform, but it takes little skill to avoid as well.

how do you draw the line between a normal tactic and one that takes too long?

Though it would take close monitoring of the match, the answer to the original hypothetical that seems most obvious would be to define a range of "reasonable kill percentages", if the infinite was continued after that it would be considered stalling.
Of course then you could argue something similar to justification of dead body infinites in MvC2, of continuing the infinite after the "reasonable kill percentage" in order to gain positional advantage and then you'd be back at the original place of a judge being the final word on whether or not it was stalling or not. Interesting topic...

 

[Corner-Trap]

If an infinite only works against certain characters, then i'm fine with it. If it works against everyone and takes no skill to perform, i'm not fine with it i.e. laser lock.

Laser lock is hard to setup, most good players simply tech whenever they hit the ground, so you 're not going to find many openings to perform it, and it doesn't work on everyone.

 

[I.T.P]

Iceb-lock(loved the naming, I think my friend void who found that would like it too) is much harder to avoid, since it can be started from an untechable meteor smash by Nana.

the original argument was more of "should infinites be used as stalling tactics, do you think it can be monitored and banned? and if an infinite is long whether or not it's used for stalling, does it warrant a ban?" and I definately like the way this thread has developed

 

[shadydentist]

I feel like if an infinite doesn't abuse a glitch or the nature of smash, well then it should be ok.

the last thing we want to do is factor in the spirit of the game. If its in the game, then it should be allowed UNLESS:
1. Its used for stalling
2. It messes up the game engine (Soul Stunner and Freeze Glitch)

If it works against everyone and takes no skill to perform, i'm not fine with it i.e. laser lock.

Laser lock is easy to actually do, but setting it up is difficult and requires your opponent to miss a tech. I don't think it should be banned.

However, when you get to 999%, then you can DQ your opponent for stalling.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Iceb-lock(loved the naming, I think my friend void who found that would like it too) is much harder to avoid, since it can be started from an untechable meteor smash by Nana.

the original argument was more of "should infinites be used as stalling tactics, do you think it can be monitored and banned? and if an infinite is long whether or not it's used for stalling, does it warrant a ban?" and I definately like the way this thread has developed

Void should definitely be listed as a pioneer in the Ice Climbers growth in the coming years for Brawl. In the end, infinites should be allowed because they have always been allowed, so it wouldn't make sense to turn around and start banning them when they haven't even been proven to be broken. If people really think infinite stalling is such a broken tactic, then they should go win some tournaments and prove just how broken it is.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Void should definitely be listed as a pioneer in the Ice Climbers growth in the coming years for Brawl. In the end, infinites should be allowed because they have always been allowed, so it wouldn't make sense to turn around and start banning them when they haven't even been proven to be broken. If people really think infinite stalling is such a broken tactic, then they should go win some tournaments and prove just how broken it is.

This man is correct.

 

[Ark22]

The laser lock and ice b-lock both only work for the length of the stage you are on. You could possibly use them to stall for a minute if you started it with the entire stage in front of you, but it does not go on forever. It should not be banned because it can not be used to stall forever and does not break the game.

Infinites against walls like these and DDD's chain grab are a bit more tricky. They work forever and so can be used to unfairly stall the game until time runs out. However, we had this problem with Fox in melee, and then we just banned stages with permanent walls. People have already proven in melee that infinities against walls are unfair, so we don't need to prove it again. We should just ban stages with permanent walls to get rid of the problem of infinite stalls in Brawl. This is enforceable and does not limit characters moves or combos.

Testing through tournament play should be the way that we determine if a move is unfair. If a person can consistently win the tournaments that he goes to by using stalling tactics, then the tactic should be banned. For instance, unless someone can prove in tournaments that DDD's or the IC's infinite chain grabs without walls completely destroy the game play, then they should stay legal.

 

[Corner-Trap]

The laser lock and ice b-lock both only work for the length of the stage you are on. You could possibly use them to stall for a minute if you started it with the entire stage in front of you, but it does not go on forever. It should not be banned because it can not be used to stall forever and does not break the game.

Infinites against walls like these and DDD's chain grab are a bit more tricky. They work forever and so can be used to unfairly stall the game until time runs out. However, we had this problem with Fox in melee, and then we just banned stages with permanent walls. People have already proven in melee that infinities against walls are unfair, so we don't need to prove it again. We should just ban stages with permanent walls to get rid of the problem of infinite stalls in Brawl. This is enforceable and does not limit characters moves or combos.

Unless someone can prove in tournaments that DDD's or the IC's infinite chain grabs without walls completely destroy the game play, then they should stay legal.

Laser lock, and Ice block lock are both infinites against a wall. Also the Ice block lock can be an infinite even without walls. All you have to do is make one IC jump and shoot an ice block on the far side of your opponent which will pop them back towards you, resulting in a true infinite. (credit goes to void)

 

[Blad01]

I think that the leak should be banned.

I also think that IC should be banned
Seriously, they are too powerful in Brawl, so i'm kidding only half :s

And stages with permanent walls sould be banned too, it would definitly resolve the problem

 

[The_Dyne]

On the issue of laser lock, I have been playing alot lately, and setting up the laser lock isn't that easy in the first place. I'd imagine that tourney level players would be able to avoid it easier, and if they can't, they should just ban fixed wall stages like Ark22 said.

 

[Gavisi]

How were rules against infinites enforced in Melee? Were you only allowed to perform an infinite for a set amount of time, or was the entire technique banned?