Infinites: Why, exactly, are they allowed?

[MookieRah]

Have we resorted to name-calling now? Thank you for categorizing me as immature off of my posts, but in the future, I would think that you should back up your assumptions.

I back it up with the fact that you are complaining about something you have never experienced. You are complaining something that the SBR and the really good players aren't too worried about. You don't have the maturity to look past yourself and realize that with a bit more skill you can get around the thing that is annoying you.

And let me further make this clear: I do not want to continue arguing about infinites, as I feel I've made my points and exhausted the subject.

Then don't post in the thread, cause that is the topic of the thread.

 

[heroboy]

I read part of the first page, but the Wall of Texts were too much for me.

This has probably been brought up, but the argument is strong enough that it should probably be said again.


You don't really have to worry about these tactics (as a community) until there's someone who wins multiple tournaments with them. And I mean destroys the competition.

You know what? if they're as horrible as you say, then you do it. Learn whatever infinites are legal, and perform them in tournaments, so that you win in all levels of tournaments. It should extremely easy, as given by all of your evidence.


Now, if people are using these tactics, and AREN'T winning tournaments...then I suppose they're not that broken.

 

[MaxThunder]

Is it just me, or does this sound extremely ********? Snake doesn't need his mortar slide,his up tilt, or his up smash to win, but those are important aspects of his game (I am just using this as an example, I don't play Snake). DDD happens to have an incredible advantage over 5 characters. Snake seems to have an incredible advantage over every character, so should we ban everything that makes Snake what he is? No, we shouldn't. No character needs any single move or strategy to win. You can say what Patsie said about any character and move. Like Diddy and his bananas (I do main Diddy). I can win w/o them, but they are very important, and not using them would be ********. I especially don't understand the part where Patsie says to

"stop using this as an an excuse as a bad cop-out for not wanting to get better."

Seriously, what are you talking about?

... actually your post sounded more ********...

and what does it mean that an infinity is broken?

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Like I said: Magneto. Discussion over.

Edit: I'll even give you guys an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ine-bzXdszA

There is nothing in Brawl that is more broken than 1 touch=death play in Marvel. Yet ROM infinite is not banned, because there are ways to not get hit. Sanford got completely outclassed and outplayed by Yipes that round, and if you get CGed by ICs/DDD, you got outplayed by your opponent, because there are ways to avoid it. Is it gay? Absolutely, but so is storm runaway, a turtling chun-li, and Marth gimps in Melee. Learn to fight it, and stop whining about it.

oh my god, off-topic but that match was crazy, I blinked and Magneto had ended it

And, uhh, I think Yuna/MookieRah/etc. have won the topic.

 

[Ruuku]

Ice Climbers infinite:

1) You actually need to grab your opponent
2) You need both Nana and Popo to be close to your opponent
3) The infinite is easily escapable if your opponent is at a low percentage
4) The timing varies depending on your opponent's character

Ice Climbers weaknesses that may interfere with a potential infinite:

1) Nana and Popo are easily separated by nearly every character in the game
2) Some character have moves which may interrupt the infinite
3) Ice Climbers have a horrible recovery back to the stage, even more so when Popo is alone. This creates another opportunity to escape the infinite if against a lone Popo

DDD infinite:

1) Such infinite only is applicable against a selected few (Samus may possibly have options which will make it rather difficult for DDD to grab her).


Now, from that quick analysis, IC's really need an infinite or semi-infinite throw in order to compete and/or be winning a large number of matchups. There are a number of factors mentioned above, which significantly lower their options.

On DDD's part, the simple fact that the infinite can only be applied on certain opponents means everything. In my opinion, this game mostly is revolving around counter-picking. DDD places well because he is able to matchup fairly well against some and is able to almost completely overpower others.

As of now, I don't see any reason to ban either infinite.

 

[Boxob]

Mookierape. Seriously.

 

[Temjin]

If infinites are allowed in tournaments then hell, they might aswell allow pulling out your opponents control pad. Since he wont be able to do anything anyway it wont matter if he can press anything or not.

But according to a response i read earlier we "play to win", and dirty tricks are fine if you want to win. Its your opponents fault if they fall for your dirty trick anyway.

So if thats the case i was thinking a little bit. And if i was playing against somebody and they decided to pull a dirty trick on me so that i couldnt move. Whats to stop me from trying to distract him whilst he's pulling off this dirty infinite? Might as well counter a dirty with a dirty.
Instead of just sitting there trying to DI helplessly or spamming buttons, as though someone unplugged your controlpad... why not do something like spam pause? its equally dirty as an infinite, and dirty tricks are just a way we play to win.

Oh no, pause is disabled.. oh well. If that dirty trick wont get you out of the dirty your opponent is playing on you, why not take it a step further? If your playing on the same console as your opponent why dont we just Yell as loud as we can in his ear to break the infinite? And THATS countering a dirty with a dirty.

But he wont fall for that trick twice! Next time he gets you in an infinite... why not pull down your pants and stick your bum in his face?! That will get you out of the infinite!! Whilst your at it you can slap him across the face with your glorious 7 inches. Do whatever you can do to break free! Don't let noobs pull dirty tricks on you. And if you counter their dirty tricks like how i've described.. they'll think twice before doing it again.


We're Pros..
We play to win..
If you fall for OUR dirty tricks, you are a noob..
You can find us at smashboards.com


(oh and by the way.. this post is a pun on how retarted it is to allow infinites)

 

[Yuna]

I skipped every single post since I last posted here because I was away the past 5 days winning money, games, tickets, an HD screen and stuff in tournaments and I didn't feel like reading up on 6+ pages of spam.

I only read the beginning of Patsie's first post after my last post. Has Patsie done anything lately except claim his opponents do stuff they do not actually do and that he sometimes himself does? Because, really, does anyone agree with him that I "change the subject" whenever he "refutes my points"?

Then again, this is the guy who insisted I was a woman despite my sig, my numerous times telling him to read my sig, numerous other people referring to me as a man and/or telling him that I am indeed a man.

 

[Amide]

Look, I understand posts here saying, "Snake has no infinite. He's the best, therefore infinites should be allowed!" Look, that makes sense, but that's real awful reasoning. For example, the Ness/Lucas grab. There's no reason this should be allowed, but Marth won't rise in tiers because you don't see Ness/Lucas often. But just because they're uncommon doesn't mean it's fair.

DDD infinite. Five characters can get 0 to death from this. These characters you don't see much. (maybe apart from DK) And it doesn't matter, because you don't main one of these characters. And if you main DDD, it's a free win.

Look, all I'm saying that is, if Snake or MK had a infinite against them, everyone would shout "No fair!" Why should you punish lower tier characters more than they already are?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Look, all I'm saying that is, if Snake or MK had a infinite against them, everyone would shout "No fair!"

No they wouldn't. Look at wobbling.

 

[MookieRah]

Look, all I'm saying that is, if Snake or MK had a infinite against them, everyone would shout "No fair!" Why should you punish lower tier characters more than they already are?

Because we sacrifice balance for the sake of having a complete metagame.

A lot of you are fighting for the low tier characters, but you have to realize that most every other competitive fighting game have characters that are borderline useless in competitive play. Should we dumb down our options to make them viable or do we just play the game in order to become the most skilled at it as we can be?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If infinites are allowed in tournaments then hell, they might aswell allow pulling out your opponents control pad. Since he wont be able to do anything anyway it wont matter if he can press anything or not.

But according to a response i read earlier we "play to win", and dirty tricks are fine if you want to win. Its your opponents fault if they fall for your dirty trick anyway.

So if thats the case i was thinking a little bit. And if i was playing against somebody and they decided to pull a dirty trick on me so that i couldnt move. Whats to stop me from trying to distract him whilst he's pulling off this dirty infinite? Might as well counter a dirty with a dirty.
Instead of just sitting there trying to DI helplessly or spamming buttons, as though someone unplugged your controlpad... why not do something like spam pause? its equally dirty as an infinite, and dirty tricks are just a way we play to win.

Oh no, pause is disabled.. oh well. If that dirty trick wont get you out of the dirty your opponent is playing on you, why not take it a step further? If your playing on the same console as your opponent why dont we just Yell as loud as we can in his ear to break the infinite? And THATS countering a dirty with a dirty.

But he wont fall for that trick twice! Next time he gets you in an infinite... why not pull down your pants and stick your bum in his face?! That will get you out of the infinite!! Whilst your at it you can slap him across the face with your glorious 7 inches. Do whatever you can do to break free! Don't let noobs pull dirty tricks on you. And if you counter their dirty tricks like how i've described.. they'll think twice before doing it again.


We're Pros..
We play to win..
If you fall for OUR dirty tricks, you are a noob..
You can find us at smashboards.com


(oh and by the way.. this post is a pun on how retarted it is to allow infinites)

this post is made of win

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

(oh and by the way.. this post is a pun on how retarted it is to allow infinites)

It's not a pun it's sarcasm. And you misspelled ********. Way to go.

 

[Grunt]

(oh And By The Way.. This Post Is A Pun On How Retarted I Am For Not Giving Any Support on Why We Should Ban Infinites)

Sooper Fixed.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sooper Fixed.

he did give support sir... but thank you for your useless post. have a nice day

 

[Grunt]

he did give support sir... but thank you for your useless post. have a nice day

ok.
your last 2 posts aren't?

Besides, he said
1. play 2 win, which supports our side
2. distracting them by ****-slapping them.
3. and claimed "since you cant do anything you might as well unplug your controller." which is ********, since you can evade the infinite.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

he did give support sir... but thank you for your useless post. have a nice day

Umm.... No he didn't? All he did was talk about mushroom stamping people.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Umm.... No he didn't? All he did was talk about mushroom stamping people.

people gave points as to why infinites should be banned

people who support infinites said "anything to win"

He merely proved what a ridiculous argumen that was... simple as that.

you can avoid having your controller unplugged too, but that doesn;t change the fact that, once it is, you have no controll overy your character.... just like would be the case for being infinited

 

[Zankoku]

Then don't get infinited. Ice Climbers don't have infinite grab range, right?

Oh wait, they must! INFINITES ARE BROKEN GUYS, ICE CLIMBERS CAN GRAB YOU FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF FD, SO YOU MAY AS WELL UNPLUG YOUR CONTROLLER AS SOON AS SOMEONE PICKS ICS.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Then don't get infinited. Ice Climbers don't have infinite grab range, right?

Oh wait, they must! INFINITES ARE BROKEN GUYS, ICE CLIMBERS CAN GRAB YOU FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF FD, SO YOU MAY AS WELL UNPLUG YOUR CONTROLLER AS SOON AS SOMEONE PICKS ICS.

This is why i agree Infinates are not unstopable...once you get inthem they are...but the key phrase is "get in them" which means your not held at gun point and told to get grabbed ....


the only infinate i dont like is the one my friend uses, he takes out a pair of sisscors and cuts my GC contoller cord...now that stuff, should be banned!!

 

[Temjin]

Thanks Sonic the Hedgedawg :D
You da man.
After my awesome explination on how stupid infinites are,
Anyone's post criticizing it looks lameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Hear that guys? Lameeeeeeeeeee.
Its good to see we all know English.. but those posts are lameee.

And an infinite is called an infinite because it goes on without the player on the recieving end being able to do anything to stop it. Anything else is not an infinite

And Sirhc you're totally right, it IS a matter of once you "get in them"
And once you DO "get in them" Thats when you give your opponent a nice clean view of your ***. And shake it around a little bit as well so they know infinites are lame.

(moral of this post: Infinites are for noobs who are too scared to engage in a real brawl.. and for ******* [thanks for picking up on that])

 

[Baky]

Thanks Sonic the Hedgedawg :D
You da man.
After my awesome explination on how stupid infinites are,
Anyone's post criticizing it looks lameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Hear that guys? Lameeeeeeeeeee
Its good to see we all know English.. but those posts are lameee


(moral of this post: Infinites are for noobs who are too scared to engage in a real brawl.. and for ******* [thanks for picking up on that])

Maybe you should read some Sirlin.

If so, it is possible that you wouldn't fail as hard.

 

[Yuna]

Look, all I'm saying that is, if Snake or MK had a infinite against them, everyone would shout "No fair!" Why should you punish lower tier characters more than they already are?

Only, you're ohorribly wrong. Seriously, stop saying this bovine manure. I've seen at least 7 or so different people say that now in this very thread. Did you even know that Snake can be chaingrabbed by plenty of characters in the game already? It's not like he gets off scotch-free from various throw-shennanigans.

We do not "overlook" the currently known infinites because they're doable on lower-tiered characters. We don't ban them because of one jillion reasons already stated. It's been like this since before SSB64 was even released (the reasons things are banned have been like this).

As MookieRah and I have already said, we do not ban things to ensure maximize balance. We only ban things that minimizes balance ("DeDeDe can only infinite 5 characters. We'd ban the infinite if it worked on the majority of the game's 39 characters).

people gave points as to why infinites should be banned

people who support infinites said "anything to win"

He merely proved what a ridiculous argumen that was... simple as that.

you can avoid having your controller unplugged too, but that doesn;t change the fact that, once it is, you have no controll overy your character.... just like would be the case for being infinited

Only we said plenty of other things. "Play to win" was just the counter-argument to "It's unfair/It's cheap!".

 

[WastingPenguins]

After my awesome explination on how stupid infinites are,
Anyone's post criticizing it looks lameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Hear that guys? Lameeeeeeeeeee.
Its good to see we all know English.. but those posts are lameee.

This is a huge pet-peeve of mine. When people want to draw out the sound of a written word they think they can just use whichever letter they want instead of the one that makes sense. Those 'lames' would NOT read like "Laaaaaaaaaame" as you probably intended. They'd probably read like, "luh-MEEEEEEEEEEE".

 

[Temjin]

That's so true, WastingPenguins.
But this is a thread about brawl not English class.

Just wondering.. What's a Sirlin? is that a book or something?

And also, The right to stick your butt in your opponents face, Unplug their controller, Or yell in their ears is just the counter-argument of "Play to Win", which is the counter-argument of "Its unfair/It's cheap"

 

[Zankoku]

Sirlin's a guy who wrote a book called Playing to Win.

So what lengths should a player go to in order to win? A player should use any tournament legal move available to him that maximizes his chances of winning the game. Whether certain moves or tactics should be legal in a tournament is a totally separate issue that we’ll get to later. For now, the issue at hand is that if it’s legal in a tournament, it’s part of the game, period. Players often fault other players for “cheating” or playing “dishonestly” when they use tactics that should not be allowed in a tournament, often because they are exploits of bugs. The player is never at fault. The player is merely trying to win with all tools available to him and should not be expected to pull his punches. Complaints should be taken up with the governing body of the tournament (or the community of players) as to what should be allowed in a tournament. This is a dead simple issue that confuses too many players.

Relevant parts are:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/how-far-should-you-go-to-win/
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned

 

[Temjin]

Oh Ankoku i agree with that 100%
But the problem at hand isnt whether or not we can use something illegal. Its deciding whether or not infinite's are legal or not.
So if in the end infinites are legal then yes. A player should use everything in their power and an infinite combo is just a way of winning. But if in the end we conclude that infinites are illegal then they should not be used in tournament play.

But at the moment we're faced with the fact that its possible for a player to perform an infinite which wasnt intended upon creation for that to occur. Now that we know it can happen we have to decide whether we should be able to exploit that in a tournament or not.
Think of it like this. When playing golf, a player can swing his club and knock the **** out another player. But its an illegal move. So if you do it you're dis-obeying the rules and should not be allowed to win. In brawl an infinite like the same thing as the golfer, or **** slapping your opponent midgame. So what we have to decide is.

Are we allowed to knock the **** out of our opponent with our golf club during tournaments?

 

[Zankoku]

Since you aren't reading the linked material, I'll quote the important parts to your argument here.

Here is the whole issue, of course. If it isn’t warranted to ban something, we don’t need to even consider whether it’s enforceable or discrete. The great lesson of competitive games is that hardly anything warrants a ban.

A bug that gives players a small advantage does not warrant a ban. In fact, it’s common. Many players don’t even realize they are using bugs, but instead view them as “advanced tactics.” Even bugs that have a huge effect on gameplay are usually not warranted to be banned. The game may change with the new tactic, but games are resilient and there tend to be countermeasures (sometimes other bugs) to almost everything.

In the fighting game Street Fighter Alpha 2, there is a bug that allows the player to activate a very damaging move (called “Custom Combo”) against an opponent who is standing up (not crouching). The designers surely intended a standing opponent to be able to crouch and block this move upon seeing it, but if executed correctly, he cannot. It has a huge impact on the way the game is played (standing up is now quite dangerous), but there is still an excellent game left even after this technique is known. At first glance, one might think that attacking is too dangerous because it usually involves standing up. Closer examination shows that the attacker can stick out moves to knock the defender out of his Custom Combo, should he try it. Basically, the bug can be dealt with. This game-changing tactic is referred to by players as the “Valle CC” after its inventor, Alex Valle (more on him later).

As another example, consider the puzzle game Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo. It’s vaguely like Tetris. In this game, blocks of various colors fall into your basin and you try to match up the colors to break these blocks to fill up your opponent’s basin. If you fill up his basin to the top, you win.

Puzzle Fighter has a game-altering bug. A feature called the diamond lets the player break all blocks of a certain color on his own side (even if they aren’t lined up) and send blocks to the opponent’s side. Usually, doing this means sending much, much fewer blocks than if the player had broken all the blocks of that color manually. It’s a tradeoff since the diamond allows the player to break all those blocks instantly, but at the price of a smaller attack. There is a bug, though, called the “diamond trick” that allows the player to send even more blocks with the diamond than he would have sent breaking all his blocks of that color manually. The diamond goes from “get me out of trouble” to being a serious, game-ending thwomp. It’s nearly impossible to defeat a player who uses the diamond trick without using it yourself.

Amongst players who all know this trick, there is still a good game. One player can use his diamond trick to cancel out the other player’s. Each player gets diamond every twenty-fifth piece, so you can count on the other player getting his diamond about the same time you get yours. You can also just break a lot of blocks right when the opponent does his diamond trick. This will allow you to cancel some of the incoming block, but still give you a pretty full basin. A peculiarity of Puzzle Fighter is that when your basin is nearly full, you then have a lot of ammunition to send back to the opponent. A clever player can turn the other player’s huge diamond trick into a stockpile of ammunition to fire back for the win. In the end, the trick merely changes the game and does not destroy it, and is certainly not worthy of banning.

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was. It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first. When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it.

A note to game developers: fix your bugs after release if you have the opportunity to do so. But beware that players enjoy the feeling of wielding “unfair” tactics, and taking that away from them can be a mistake if the “unfair” tactic isn’t powerful enough to single-handedly win tournaments.

Only in the most extreme, rare cases should something be banned because it is “too good.” This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

Only in the ultra-rare case that the player is right and the game is worth saving and the game without the ultra-tactic is a ten times better game—only then is the notion even worth fighting for. And even in this case, it may take time for the game to mature enough for a great percentage of the best players and tournament organizers to realize that tactic should, indeed, be banned. Before an official ban takes place, there can also be something called “soft ban.”

 

[DippnDots]

The analogies presented by Temjin make me laugh on the outside and cry on the inside.

 

[Temjin]

Thanks for giving me that extremely long, boring yet informative passage to read. Now I'd appreciate it if you took a look at what this article has to say

A 44 year old Hong Kong man accidentally fell off a 10th floor balcony while trying to video tape his next door neighbor showering.
The 29 story building was designed so that two units have their bathroom windows right next to each other. This made it easy for the man to climb over and peep on his neighbor.
The victim, a 28 year-old sales lady, was taking a shower when she noticed a strange hand holding a cell phone outside the bathroom window.
She screamed for help and saw the person outside climb back into the next room, which was a vacant apartment.
Her husband and other residents blocked the door entering the next door apartment and called the police.
The peeping tom, realizing his only way to escape was out the window, climbed out the window back onto the ledge.
Due to the dark and slippery conditions, the man lost his footing and fell 10 floors to the ground. Luckily he hit a tree branch which broke his fall a little.
He was found alive but critically injured with a broken rib puncturing his lung.
He was taken into custody and rushed to the hospital where he remains in critical condition.

What does this passage have to do with brawl? Nothing.
Just like most of that passage I read from the Sirlin dude. But it's pretty funny hey?
Congratulations to capcom for messing up pocket-fighter. I actually liked that game.

There was one thing i liked in Sirlin's passage though.

Sure not all bugs are banned. We use some bugs in our every day gameplay.
Just like B-sticking, Michael Jacksons moonwalk, bowser taking a crap, or Pit's loopie arrow.
Sure, we use these and what happens? We are positioned slightly different after performing it. or we walk funny, or we laugh or taunt at our opponents cool trick.
Whats the result of an infinite combo?

Its like taking a golf club to the head.

It seriously knocks the f*** out of you and seriously disadvantages your chances of victory. Just like a golf club to the head would mess up a golfer, an infinte combo would mess up a brawler. I dont see Tiger Woods taking a swing at his opponent's head and when being questioned about it he says

"So What? It's my 'Advanced Tactic'! Duh"

According to Mr.Sirlin, on a RARE occasion something can be banned because it's too good.

Well an infinite is called an infinite because... its "INFINITE". It goes on forever and theres nothing anybody can do about it. I dont have a problem with anything else being allowed or banned. But being caught in a move that kills you no matter how much you try to avoid it.. It is that RARE case where someone abuses the fact he can do it to win the game.

Mr.Sirlin says The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way.

Firstly.. you can't counter an infinite. ITS INFINITE.
You can take measures to try not to get caught in one. But you can also wear a safety helmet in golf so you dont get knocked the f*** out by other golfers too. You don't see them doing it do you?

Secondly.. This guy, who ever he is says its the scrub's way to ban something for whatever reason. I believe that its more the scrub way to try to use an infinite to win. Seriously, who'd be too scared to stand up to a nice challenging brawl? A scrub would. He'd abuse the hell out of the infinite to avoid being humiliated by not being able to out-think or out-brawl his opponent. Sure, anyone can spend some hours to master locking an opponent in an infinite. But it could take months, or even years to come close to mastering the game how it's meant to be played. And a scrub is the kind of player who'd take the easy way out.

So sure, if you want to play like a scrub. Pick up your golf club and go learn and abuse those infinites.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Firstly.. you can't counter an infinite. ITS INFINITE.
you can take measures to try not to get caught in one. But you can also wear a safety helmet in golf so you dont get knocked the f*** out by other golfers too. You don't see them doing it do you?

Well. When one of the other golfers figures out how awesome a strategy it is to beat each other with golf clubs they probably will start wearing safety helmets.

Just like when people can infinite you should be ready to counter them.

 

[Zankoku]

orly? So someone in your region picked Ice Climbers and infinite'd his way to victory in a tournament? Or how about you? It's so easy, why don't you go and prove why this should be banned, win some $200-$300 for first place in the process?

A local IC's player here who abused the infinites placed 3rd. And he went Snake most of the time. I played against him and won against his ICs, then lost two rounds to his Snake. How's that for broken, when these amazing infinites don't have as much success as ANOTHER CHARACTER?

 

[CStrife187]

But at the moment we're faced with the fact that its possible for a player to perform an infinite which wasnt intended upon creation for that to occur. Now that we know it can happen we have to decide whether we should be able to exploit that in a tournament or not.
Think of it like this. When playing golf, a player can swing his club and knock the **** out another player. But its an illegal move. So if you do it you're dis-obeying the rules and should not be allowed to win. In brawl an infinite like the same thing as the golfer, or **** slapping your opponent midgame. So what we have to decide is.

Are we allowed to knock the **** out of our opponent with our golf club during tournaments?

Temjin, Sakurai intended for us to play free for alls with items or team battles with team attack off. If that's the way you want to play, that's perfectly alright with me. If that is how you play, please leave and stop telling everyone here how to play a game that we like to play a different way.

About your golf analogy, using infinites is not at all like hitting your opponent in the head with a club, it's more like approaching a hole from a different angle than was intended when the course was created. If some golf pro comes along and discovers that he can use a different club to hit his ball over the trees and land it on the green instead of using two strokes to get around a sharp dog-leg, is that going to be banned?

NO! he's going to be praised because he found a revolutionary way to approach that particular hole and he changed the way that course is played forever! Everyone's going to try that strategy, and that becomes the new standard.

that's how we play smash. When somebody finds a really good tactic that seems unbeatable, instead of whining about it good smash players either start using that tactic or find a way around that "unbeatable" tactic. Please stop whining and go play smash brothers.

 

[Artaclaris]

If it hasn't been said in 43 pages...how is a simple grab worth an entire life? One grab KO? Thats like worse than it was back on the 64..lol Although in the end a move is a move.

 

[Blad01]

We should simply limite the grab to 4 or so. In that way, we could rack-up damages, or kill if we are next a ledge, but it wouldn't be broken.

It would also be a lot more strategic.

 

[Yuna]

But at the moment we're faced with the fact that its possible for a player to perform an infinite which wasnt intended upon creation for that to occur. Now that we know it can happen we have to decide whether we should be able to exploit that in a tournament or not.
Think of it like this. When playing golf, a player can swing his club and knock the **** out another player. But its an illegal move. So if you do it you're dis-obeying the rules and should not be allowed to win. In brawl an infinite like the same thing as the golfer, or **** slapping your opponent midgame. So what we have to decide is

Inconsequential bovine manure. I'm sick and tired of people spouting off this nonesense.

First of all, how do you know it's unintended? It's not even a glitch!

Half of the stuff possible in fighting games are not intended by the developers! Because even games where the developers actually get some competent Beta-testers (something Sakurai obviously didn't) still have lots of "unintended" strategies, glitches, exploits and techniques eventually found out by the community.

Whether or not something is intended by the developer or not is inconsequential. Also, are you saying we should ban it because it's unintended? Then where does it stop? Mortar Sliding? Glide tossing? Link's gale boomerang freeze glitch (even though it requires the opponent to mess up)? Or should we only ban unintended stuff that's powerful, even if it's not really overpowered?

Or are you saying the infinites are way overpowered and should be banned because they're overpowered? Then why mention them being unintended to begin with? Stop using "it's unintended" as an argument. It's inconsequential.

An infinite is not the same as slapping your opponent mid-game. It's like Tiger Woods vs. You in golf. He's just that much better. When he hits that golf ball, it'll fly 5 times as far as when you hit it. So I guess there's a lesson to be learned here: Tiger Woods should be banned.

You know what I'm pretty sure Sakurai didn't "intend"? Desynching as ICs. All kinds of desynching should be banned!

 

[SketchHurricane]

About your golf analogy, using infinites is not at all like hitting your opponent in the head with a club, it's more like approaching a hole from a different angle than was intended when the course was created. If some golf pro comes along and discovers that he can use a different club to hit his ball over the trees and land it on the green instead of using two strokes to get around a sharp dog-leg, is that going to be banned?

NO! he's going to be praised because he found a revolutionary way to approach that particular hole and he changed the way that course is played forever! Everyone's going to try that strategy, and that becomes the new standard.

that's how we play smash. When somebody finds a really good tactic that seems unbeatable, instead of whining about it good smash players either start using that tactic or find a way around that "unbeatable" tactic. Please stop whining and go play smash brothers.

Pwned.

I think this topic has more than enough discussion in it to answer the initial question.

 

[CStrife187]

I'm sorry for the off-topic post, but this is the first time somebody's ever QFT'd me. I'm so proud.

 

[MookieRah]

Guys, just ignore that dude. He isn't willing to change his point of view because he has already decided what he is going to believe and is too thick headed to re-think his position.

Seriously, once someone claims creator's intent as their argument for banning something the argument is over, because that person is not mature enough to actually come up with a real reason to back up their stance. It's very similar to how the debate is over whenever someone compares someone or something to the Nazis and/or Hitler.

 

[mynaymeisadam]

Temjin, Sakurai intended for us to play free for alls with items or team battles with team attack off. If that's the way you want to play, that's perfectly alright with me. If that is how you play, please leave and stop telling everyone here how to play a game that we like to play a different way.

why would you tell someone who has a different opinion than you to leave? This is Smashboards, not Infinitesshouldbeallowedboards.

He isn't doing anything wrong by posting his opinion, and neither are you. But that's, for lack of a better word, inconsiderate.

P.S. I agree with you about infinites.