Is A New Melee Tier List Possible?

[Sukai]

Melee is on life support.

Umberon is saying "quality over quantity", the metagame is progressing, but not improving.

 

[SDC]

back and forth, back and forth, dont know where to start....

first of all, props to bluepeachy100 and scidaddle, thats what i call real professional trollism!! good **** with the talk bout peach needin it bad, its what humorous trolling is all about

yeah, the "final melee list" (lol) was named such so as to take out melee, effectively end its run, and make way for brawl. the backroomers are a bunch of businessmen/nintendo insiders after all ("cmon fanboys, just buy the new product and support it, who cares about quality").

@umbreon
you didnt play PC (even though he's retiring, so take him off the list anyway) and of course M2k, azen, and chu are going to play like trash compared with what they played like before, cuz they've all gone to brawl rofl. take it from me, brawl kills kills you melee game.

(ANGRY ANTI-BRAWL RANT READ AT YOUR OWN RISK OF SELF-IMPROVEMENT AND INEVITABLE ENLIGHTENMENT LULZ)
it kills your tech skill, your ability to combo worth s***, and before you know it you're jumping to false conclusions (ex. "where the hell did nado go? B isn't an automatic **** button anymore???", "i dont like getting comboed, why can't i just dodge out of EVERY f****** thing my opponent does???", and the old: "what the f*** just happened?!? i jumped and dodged down, and it looked like my char teleported!! i think i found a NEW GLITHC!!!"). brawl ******* you. its the sad, offensive, insulting truth. brawl turns you into a big lumbering drooling handicap who whines when he gets comboed from 0-100 and KOed "i didnt even have a chance, and thats just not fair!!". lulz
(END OF ANGRY ANTI-BRAWL RANT SEE IT WASN'T THAT BAD WAS IT?!)

and yes, armada is better. everything he does, from combos to edgeguards to recovery, is more refined, precise, accurate. he exhibits deeper knowledge of the character, and the intangibles and technique he performs are more reliable then other peaches: his combos, edgeguards, etc connect with greater percentage then other peaches i've seen. hes the m2k/mango of peach. call me overreacting and ***kissing, but part of me thinks the peach community may have finally got their taj, their gimpy, their guy. the guy who outperforms the rest of them at tourneys (maybe of course, only time will tell if armada continues to show us he's top s***). now this doesn't necessarily mean that peach isnt as good as we thought she was after armada got second at genesis, but we do have to take armada's skillz into account.

yeah

 

[PINEAPPLE KING]

seanthedonconsidine=win. really I can't think of anything to say but good job. peach has the same stuff but shes being used smarter

 

[Sukai]

I love how anti-Brawl rants just tears away at credibility.

Now that's trolling at it's finest.

Umbreon isn't saying Armada isn't a great Peach, he's just saying it's circumstantial to the level of play of today, and that he wouldn't be so hot if Ken, Isai and gang were still ruling Melee.
It's an opinion--about a game, dude, ease up.

 

[SDC]

I love how anti-Brawl rants just tears away at credibility.

Now that's trolling at it's finest.

dizzy:

.....caught in the act. lol its a bad habit. im workin on it man. work with me here lol.....

just for you knuxy, i'll edit my post to warn people of the brawl-rantiness-content so they won't think im a buthurt melee fanboy. just for you buddy.

 

[PINEAPPLE KING]

wow our minds have been twisted when you think about it. I was talking more about the peach thing.

 

[SDC]

I love how anti-Brawl rants just tears away at credibility.

Now that's trolling at it's finest.

Umbreon isn't saying Armada isn't a great Peach, he's just saying it's circumstantial to the level of play of today, and that he wouldn't be so hot if Ken, Isai and gang were still ruling Melee.
It's an opinion--about a game, dude, ease up.

aren't those two points intertwined though? saying that someone seems really good because of the day and age does at least somewhat tear away at their credibility/recognition. you can make them seem separate, but those two points are still connected.

yes, ken was awesome, but that was then, this is now. how do we know ken and isai were the best things to ever play the game? do we think ken in his prime would have beat mango in his prime? they were different players with different styles, and were/are both quite dominant in their prime. maybe ken's style, skill, and technique wouldn't have worked against some of the players who know what they know now? i'm not trying to take anything away from ken, but lets remember that he wasn't perfect. and also were getting into the whole tyson/ali/fraser etc. debates, and montana/brady/young/marino etc. debate. were delving into the realm of "opinion".
and lets please not let this conversation devolve into mindless "ken ftw" or "mango would have ***** ken". lets actually discuss why someone would have been better or not, if we even do that lol, and for the sake of the sanctity of this thread, i really hope we don't, cuz i know what will happen to it...

It's an opinion--about a game, dude, ease up.

wtf? lol you on a forum--about a video game, dude, get with reality. of course theres gonna be opinions about video games, cuz were on a FORUM. lets turn to dictionary.com for this tough one fellas: definition of "forum":
"A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas(aka OPIONZ), such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website."
stfu lol. it kinda comes with the territory man

 

[Strong Badam]

dk can really keep up with nearly every char in the game

no
he can't.

 

[SDC]

no
he can't.

reality bites lol.
OFFTOPIC: and too all those people who say "mewtwo can be one of the best if you use his full potential" try to main him. really. do it. try to main him lol. if mew2 wasn't like my fave creature evar i wouldn't submit myself to the agony that is getting 3stocked every other match.

 

[BluePeachy100]

As has been stated over and over again, one player placing well with a character does not mean that he/she should move up. You could maybe make an argument for Jiggs (given Mango, H-box, Darc, that other FL played whose name I can't remember), but arguing for Peach for top tier because of one player is ridiculous.

But other Peach mainers have also placed well. Mainly because of Genesis this topic was opened. But I'm sure it's is due to other reason that others also think Peach should be pushed up in the tier list.

@ Umbreon since I don't feel like teh multi-quote crap:
If someone can do so well with the VAST majority of it being skill, how can the characters limitations come into being such an important factor? Obviously the limitations matter very little if you can use the character to their fullest extent.

@ Strong_Bad: Pay more attention to the rest of the post. He was obviously talking more of the player than DK himself.

 

[Strong Badam]

i read his post
bum showed that an amazing player exploiting a match-up in which no one knew much about at the time could get 4th with a bad character at one mlg tournament.
that's it.
it really didn't make sense for DK to go up in the tier list in the first place. he's a bad character.
but that's what happens when you base a character ranking off of how good players are that use said characters, and not off of the characters themselves.

 

[BluePeachy100]

That''s pretty much how things are going for the most part. Besides, if we DIDN'T go by how good players use them, then the whole concept of metagame disappears.

 

[Strong Badam]

you aren't seeing my point
bum doing well w/ a character due to no one knowing how to face DK and taking that data and saying "oh well **** DK is amazing let's put him in Mid-Tier, even though clearly it's the player and not the character that's doing well," and putting that into a tier list is just stupid. Taj ***** w/ M2 but Mewtwo is still a really bad character. Why is this (or any other) case any different?
of course a tier list should be made based on top-level play, but basing a tier list off of tournament results doesn't yield an accurate tier list (see: DK being moved up by 1 player doing well with him, even though much of DK's metagame hadn't changed and Bum was just really good).

 

[Sukai]

Well, sean.
Ken was (and still is as it stands) the highest ranking Melee player in the world.
And Isai was (and still is as it stands) the only person ever to come close to his equal.

Armada blew up on tournament, with some neat records aside from that.
I don't blame Umbreon when he says "the days when there was a guy literally known for winning almost (term used loosely) every tournament he's attended" the height of the metagame.

Since they don't play Melee anymore, it's all speculation.
Again, it's not a big deal.
Plus one person does not make a character higher on the list, if that was the case, Roy and Mewtwo would rise significantly, because of NEO and Taj.
It doesn't work like that, Armada is a ****** princess, but that's it.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

OFFTOPIC: and too all those people who say "mewtwo can be one of the best if you use his full potential" try to main him. really. do it. try to main him lol. if mew2 wasn't like my fave creature evar i wouldn't submit myself to the agony that is getting 3stocked every other match.

Quoted for truth.
If M2 can be one the very best at his full potential:
1. So can every other character at full potential (a.k.a. perfect play)
2. Why does Taj even bother with Marth?

I love M2, and think he's a bit underrated, but he definitely doesn't deserve even close to top or high tier. He probably deserves middle of low tier, and if Taj or someone revolutionizes (I'm talking what Ken did with Marth kinda stuff) his play style, maybe MAYBE he could get bottom of middle tier, but this late in the metagame, I doubt it.

 

[Sukai]

It can be argued that Marth is significantly easier to play with.

 

[BluePeachy100]

you aren't seeing my point
bum doing well w/ a character due to no one knowing how to face DK and taking that data and saying "oh well **** DK is amazing let's put him in Mid-Tier, even though clearly it's the player and not the character that's doing well," and putting that into a tier list is just stupid. Taj ***** w/ M2 but Mewtwo is still a really bad character. Why is this (or any other) case any different?
of course a tier list should be made based on top-level play, but basing a tier list off of tournament results doesn't yield an accurate tier list (see: DK being moved up by 1 player doing well with him, even though much of DK's metagame hadn't changed and Bum was just really good).

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments.

Mainly because of Genesis this topic was opened. But I'm sure it's is due to other reasons that others also think Peach should be pushed up in the tier list.

*shrugs* =/

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

It can be argued that Marth is significantly easier to play with.

Exactly my point, M2 simply isn't as easy to play as, and in turn win with.

 

[Sukai]

That argument doesn't hold.
Fox is crammed with learning curves, yet he's considered the best by alphabetical selection in an otherwise dead tie with Marth.

Ease of Play =/= better character.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's not a dead tie. Those numbers are rounded. Jigglypuff/Captain Falcon was the only true tie.

Fox can be played at a high level without a huge amount of technical skill, but it helps. Fox isn't Top Tier because of his waveshining or his SHDL, it's because of his high-priority, high-speed, good-damaging aerials and powerful KO attacks, with a good recovery to boot. Waveshining and SHDL is just icing on the cake.

 

[P. O. F.]

edit: I guess my point is that I just don't think the metagame has evolved. Part of why Armada did well was his skill, probably 98% of it. I just think the other 2% is that play has downgraded and the best players forgot how to abuse peach's limitations? she is extremely limited.

I agree with what you are saying about Peach, she is an extremely limited character. However, I highly disagree with what you are saying about the meta game. It definitely has.

Ken in his prime was all about comboing and literally evolved Marth as a character to the point where he completely dictated a new style for Melee.....comboing the ever living crap out of people.

When M2K started to dominate he made the game all about gimps....if you go off stage...you should die..period! No one edge guards with Marth like M2K does and he evolved the game further. He made the game all about ****** people off stage.

MaNg0 has a COMPLETELY new style with his puff that no one has been able to really understand yet. I was talking to PC about this the other day because I went over for a bit and played some SF IV and stuff with him. He personally thinks that MaNg0 has discovered a new form of play in Melee and I see where hes coming from with this. Hes doing something completely new and different and that is why his Falco is nearly just as good as his puff.

Discuss.

 

[MaNg0]

i agree

my puff is amazing/unique

my falco is catching up tho

=D

 

[Rannskita]

mango's not the most technical player out there but he is definately underated in that respect and one of the top. the thing that mango's all about and evolved the game to is reading the opponent. his tech skill doesnt seem as flashy and outrageous as some falco's but he plays Text Book Plus (like he does everything a falco has to do to beat the matchup and the style his opponent is using, then on top of that he adds in some crazy adaptive **** and his own reads).
People in general seem to be having trouble with any good puff nowadays, but if you add together mango's ability to cover all options and adapt and punish, it makes his puff seem such a 'force'. hes not as flamboyant as King etc, and his puff isnt unbeatable, but he makes it very hard matchup for anyone and the punishes hard once you mess up.

i think thats what you see in m2k too, except mango's reading of his opponent's playstyle as a human player seems better, which helps him adapt. from m2k you'll see some legit ****, but mango can do that, plus some insane random ****.

 

[MaNg0]

Like hug s said

"mango doesnt know anything ... he just figures you out and you never beat him"

or something like that lol

 

[otg]

i read his post
bum showed that an amazing player exploiting a match-up in which no one knew much about at the time could get 4th with a bad character at one mlg tournament.
that's it.
it really didn't make sense for DK to go up in the tier list in the first place. he's a bad character.
but that's what happens when you base a character ranking off of how good players are that use said characters, and not off of the characters themselves.

TRUUUUUUUUUUUTH.

<3 strongbad

 

[P. O. F.]

i agree

my puff is amazing/unique

my falco is catching up tho

=D

shutup MaNg0. LOL.

I hear you are coming down to CT soon or some ****? (rumor?) Ummm we should playa nd you should teach me how to **** kids with Jiggs.

 

[Europhoria]

Umbreon is so dumb >_> At an MLG in 06 if someone said a Jiggs would win the tournament and dominate the tournaments to come, would you have believed it? Well in 07 that **** happened, and he beat all the best players, while they were still active at SCC and then again at Pound 3.

Feels like another old mod/BR player refusing to admit that this game has evolved or even continued after MLG died. The game is different now, and people did camp the living out of Armada/abuse Peach's weak points, he just played well against it. The Melee tier list can't change when the backroom that makes it is comprised of players like UmbreonMow, even if it should

 

[Sukai]

Fox can be played at a high level without a huge amount of technical skill

That's it, I'm done, it's over.

Technical skill is THE biggest factor in high level play, it's the biggest factor in any level of play, because mindgames, mix ups, tech chasing, all that is solely dependent on your tech skill, because you can't get anything done right unless you know how to move your character exactly the way you need them to be.
Game over, I'm out, this thread is bull if arguments like these are considered valid.

 

[P. O. F.]

Tech skill is essential...but its still overrated in some aspects. Just look at Marth and Sheik. LOL.

 

[Deleted member]

@ Umbreon since I don't feel like teh multi-quote crap:
If someone can do so well with the VAST majority of it being skill, how can the characters limitations come into being such an important factor? Obviously the limitations matter very little if you can use the character to their fullest extent.

Actually, that's when they matter the most. At top level play where those limitations can be abused, that's also where the peach players get knocked out of the bracket. It doesn't matter how skilled Armada is, Peach will always have a slow run, a hard time getting up from the edge, light weight, mediocre range, and to some extent she also has trouble getting KOs. If you don't abuse those limitations, yeah, she's completely amazing. Every good character is amazing if you ignore their weaknesses.

I agree that Ken is out and the new players are in. I just don't think the game play has evolved to a higher level that we require for a new and different tier list.

 

[Sukai]

Tech skill is essential...but its still overrated in some aspects. Just look at Marth and Sheik. LOL.

You make a point, which I already addressed previously by saying Marth has more ease of play than Mewtwo, none the less, it is a very important factor, especially with characters like Fox, in which you have to make use of his speed to the best of your abilities, which require a high amount of tech skill.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually I've always thought that marth takes more tech skill. Tech skill is defined by doing exactly what you want to do. Since marth has his narrow hitbox of a tipper and gets ***** extra hard for missing, marth has to be perfectly precise at all times where's fox doesn't. furthermore, fox's tech skill comes from pressing buttons quickly with strict timing but doesn't really require precision or spacing at all.

 

[Sukai]

Fox requires precision, all those small hitboxes, unless he connects, all that speed is wasted and used against him when punished with a hard combo/chain grab, because he screwed up trying to hit his opponent.
Spacing, yeah, but Fox has to be really precise with his movements/attacks, or else.

This is pure opinion, but for me, getting tips with Marth was never an issue, everything seems to fall in place with him.

 

[Strong Badam]

fox doesn't need waveshine/shdl to win, and those are his technical aspects.
being able to dashdance well, pivot grabs, cg, shffl attacks, etc. are basic technical concepts that any top tier character requires (sans Falco; he doesn't have to CG or pivot grabs. Sheik doesn't have to pivot grab either). If you watch M2K's Fox in like 2k7/2k8, it's fast, but the most technical stuff he does is between stocks.

I'd also argue that being able to CG perfectly with Marth (see: m2k/ken) is about as difficult as being technically sound with Fox.

 

[Sukai]

JC Grab, to up tilt, repeat?
I don't know if you're sarcastic or serious.

 

[Strong Badam]

try upthrow uptilt at 0% buddy, see how that works.
also try upthrow & 0% w/ full back DI -> regrab. it's not very easy.

 

[otg]

Actually I've always thought that marth takes more tech skill. Tech skill is defined by doing exactly what you want to do. Since marth has his narrow hitbox of a tipper and gets ***** extra hard for missing, marth has to be perfectly precise at all times where's fox doesn't. furthermore, fox's tech skill comes from pressing buttons quickly with strict timing but doesn't really require precision or spacing at all.

yes yes yes yes and more yes.

 

[SDC]

every character requires at least a certain level of tech skill, some of course requiring more then others, but all require a lot of tech skill to play competitively. of course marth is easier to use then mew2, but that doesn't mean that marth doesn't have to be precise, accurate, and calculated with his moves. i think some of the people on this thread have good points, if we could just find a little middle ground.....lol

 

[Fletch]

Umbreon is so dumb >_> At an MLG in 06 if someone said a Jiggs would win the tournament and dominate the tournaments to come, would you have believed it? Well in 07 that **** happened, and he beat all the best players, while they were still active at SCC and then again at Pound 3.

Feels like another old mod/BR player refusing to admit that this game has evolved or even continued after MLG died. The game is different now, and people did camp the living out of Armada/abuse Peach's weak points, he just played well against it. The Melee tier list can't change when the backroom that makes it is comprised of players like UmbreonMow, even if it should

I was going to say basically the same thing. Can you address this Umbreon?

 

[Blatt Blvd]

wow conspiracy in the blackroom.