Is Brawl's metagame at a standstill?

[Fletch]

My disbelief in Brawl's worth was solidified when I went to NC Jubilee. I watched Chu Dat play his Kirby in both doubles and tournament matches, plus some money matches. His Kirby right now is undisputed as the best in the world, afaik. It seemed to me that the only thing he was doing better than any other kirby i've seen was reading his opponent. Anyone can do the basic throw combos, and anyone can master the minimal amount of tech skill necessary to play kirby; it was all about reading your opponent.

Melee was about reading your opponent only if the two players were on the same tech skill level; otherwise the player with more tech skill would win, unless the other player was VASTLY better at reading his opponent. In Brawl, though, since there is very little tech skill, we IMMEDIATELY hit the point where reading your opponent is what determines who is the winner. When I saw Chu Dat's Kirby, and I knew that he was the best in the world, I realized that Brawl was shallower than Melee, because literally, it isn't as deep. You master the techskill of brawl in a day, the tech skill of your favorite character in a week, and then you're set to learn how to read your opponent.

Edit: 600 posts!!

Come on, it doesn't take that long.

 

[PCHU]

You know, if God could play Brawl, our metagame would develop A LOT FASTER.
Heck, one match could leave us guessing for years.

But in all seriousness, there is still plenty to find.
Not like I know what there is, but.....
I'm finding stuff with a lot of characters (like basic combos, setups).
Not really COMBOS as in YOU CAN'T get out, but.....
Just basic stuff, like with Lucas; Dthrow to Bair spike, and that sets up other things.

Even if we DID reach the end of techs, don't you think there are still THOUSANDS of better ways to use them?

 

[GofG]

Lol@ God.

If we reached the end of techs, then the rest is all reading opponents and perfecting play styles. There is nothing more; we have already reached the end of the metagame.

 

[mariofanpm12]

This could maybe work simply due to the fact that Brawl lacks any real ATs (advanced techniques that EVERY character can perform, such as Wavedashing and L-Canceling) and instead has a few ATs that are more character-specific. Thus banning Meta Knight and Snake may perhaps help other characters develop, but overall Brawl's actualt AT-based metagame won't develop until something like Wave-dashing comes along, and at this point that looks very unlikely.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

This could maybe work simply due to the fact that Brawl lacks any real ATs (advanced techniques that EVERY character can perform, such as Wavedashing and L-Canceling) and instead has a few ATs that are more character-specific. Thus banning Meta Knight and Snake may perhaps help other characters develop, but overall Brawl's actualt AT-based metagame won't develop until something like Wave-dashing comes along, and at this point that looks very unlikely.

Wavedashing is dead, sorry, but it is true.

 

[PCHU]

What about the new and unimproved Brawldashing?
I saw it in some youtube video.
Has somethin' to do with crawling and reversing, I dunno.

But again, THOUSANDS OF COMBINATIONS.
I don't care if this is all we'll EVER find, we still have SOME true combos.
I can't believe some of you are giving up already.
There will ALWAYS be something that we haven't found yet.
We haven't cracked the game open and drank the juices yet!
NO!
We've ALMOST done that with Melee, but there is more coconutty GOODNESS to be found in Brawl!
You just have to LURK MOAR.

 

[metaXzero]

^But will that "SOMETHING" really change anything? That's the question there.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

Your entire post was amazing, but quoting it all would annoy quite a few people, so I took a few bits that I would like to comment on.

Let's say we ban Dedede's chaingrab. By banning it, does the metagame prosper because five more characters, who were previously caught in a 0 to Death infinite, are now viable?

Let's say we ban MetaKnight and Snake. By banning it, does the metagame prosper where more character matchups aren't so favored to two individual characters that have an obvious advantage?

Would it be to our advantage, IE the community's, to support a metagame that supports the increased viability of three characters at the cost of losing one character?

I like this idea of sacrifice. Though this is just a video game, I can already see people bringing up the topic of "the greater good" and saying that I'm wrong in believing in such a thing. Please don't bring that into this.

Anyways, you kept saying "By banning [x], does the metagame prosper...?" and I think the best way to find out would be to experiment in the way that Smogon does. I also think that it WOULD be to our advantage to support a metagame that supports the increased viability of three characters at the cost of losing one character. It's up to the community to decide how long they would want to "lose" that character though.

Either way I think experimenting like Smogon does would be an amazing idea, and I hope it makes it's way to the BRoom.

I mean, the metagame is changing right now, but once it stales off in a year, after 6 months of static unchanging tier lists, I'd support if SmashBoards ran tests of tournament play where [X] character, skill, or technique is banned. Maybe one month of Snake banned, analyze the results, decide whether Snake is banned or not, or whether certain Snake techniques are banned. (For example, mortarsliding could be banned to level off Snake's advantage, but Snake is still tourney viable). Another month where MetaKnight is banned, analyze the results, decide whether or not MetaKnight is banned, or whether certain MetaKnight techniques are banned.

And if the results still don't promise a better metagame, they can always decide to change it back to how it was after the month long testing.

Like I said above, short testing and analyzing periods won't hurt anyone. After we have our results we'll make a verdict. Whether that verdict includes permanently banning a character, well, we won't know that until we test. But if a character does eventually get permanently banned, it's for the progress of the metagame is it not?

Also like you said, if the results don't promise a better metagame, we can always decide to change back.

I don't know, it's not up to me, a guy with 200 posts to decide. It's just something for the higher ups here to consider.

Post count doesn't mean anything.

Good post.

 

[killori]

Guys you can always ban characters but that's not going to stop Sakurai from putting new people in the new game. Then there would be a huge argument immediately as to who should be banned and who shouldn't and the game would be ruined for some.

On a completely different note, I main Falco and Lucario.
Link, Ness, Peach, and Pit are my secondaries.
I don't chain grab ever I try not to spam Aura Sphere, Pit's arrows, and his side-b and camping is just boring and pointless.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

Guys you can always ban characters but that's not going to stop Sakurai from putting new people in the new game.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[PCHU]

^But will that "SOMETHING" really change anything? That's the question there.

Yessahhhh.
Of course it will change something.
Don't quite know what, though.
You'll never know until you find it.
When we do find said thing, I'm sure it will help someone a whole lot.

 

[killori]

What does this have to do with anything?

In the next game he puts new characters in with new metagames to find but if we found some metagmes cheap then we're bound to find more metagames cheap.

 

[MuBa]

A lot of the ATs in Melee were found by mistake; namely Wavedashing.

Instead of trying to experiment with the physics and finding an exploitation or glitch just play the game as it is and hope to whoever you believe is a deity that you find an amazing universal AT that'll change Brawl for the good.

And if all else fails, just use the Ocarina code to help things out. So far the no-tripping code made the game a whole LOT smoother.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

You're using the word "metagame" like it's the word "technique". Also, Sakurai won't be making any more SSB games.

On topic, I've been watching alot of Brawl vids and Shield Dashing is looking alot more common and alot more useful.

 

[metaXzero]

Yessahhhh.
Of course it will change something.
Don't quite know what, though.
You'll never know until you find it.
When we do find said thing, I'm sure it will help someone a whole lot.

The many pseudo wavedashes and ISJR among other useless Techs say hi.

What I mean to say is at this point, revolutionary ATs aren't going to be found. We'll just find pointless 1s or (if we're lucky) cheap and broken things (more chaingrabs, MKs Infinite Cape-esque things, etc.).

EDIT: MuBa. Melee's community then was MUCH smaller and knew very little of searching for ATs. Don't compare them with the current Brawl community.

 

[killori]

You're using the word "metagame" like it's the word "technique". Also, Sakurai won't be making any more SSB games.

On topic, I've been watching alot of Brawl vids and Shield Dashing is looking alot more common and alot more useful.

Do you mean someone else will make the next one or the series is done.
I haven't heard either of those stories

 

[rageagainst]

Brawl sucks! While waiting for a gamebreaking technique to pop up in brawl or for SSB4 (the latter will probably be reached first), buy SC4 and remake the Brawl cast there. You might run into trouble making space animals though

 

[PCHU]

The many pseudo wavedashes and ISJR among other useless Techs say hi.

What I mean to say is at this point, revolutionary ATs aren't going to be found. We'll just find pointless 1s or (if we're lucky) cheap and broken things (more chaingrabs, MKs Infinite Cape-esque things, etc.).

EDIT: MuBa. Melee's community then was MUCH smaller and knew very little of searching for ATs. Don't compare them with the current Brawl community.

You may be right, but they are techs nonetheless.
How does ISJR work?
I've done it, but I don't know how the crap you're getting a second jump back.
Perhaps we could find out more and bend this to our advantage.

 

[Delta_BP26]

metaXzero, can I borrow your time machine? Mine only goes 60 minutes per hour.

 

[metaXzero]

You may be right, but they are techs nonetheless.
How does ISJR work?
I've done it, but I don't know how the crap you're getting a second jump back.
Perhaps we could find out more and bend this to our advantage.

You time an attack so it ends right when you would land and buffer a jump (press the jump button RIGHT before you land).

Its uses are limited due to
1. Its difficulty.
2. It only cancels standard landing and start-up jump lag (Snake and Ganonndorf benefit a bit).
3. Second jumps are usually kind of high.

EDIT: Delta BP26. You're not serious thinking that a revolutionary tech will come at this point are you?

 

[PCHU]

You time an attack so it ends right when you would land and buffer a jump (press the jump button RIGHT before you land).

Its uses are limited due to
1. Its difficulty.
2. It only cancels standard landing and start-up jump lag (Snake and Ganonndorf benefit a bit).
3. Second jumps are usually kind of high.

I mean how the heck do you get a second jump AFTER you've used it?
What is in the game's mechanics that allows you to do something like that?
I never said ISJR was a GOOD tech (heck, I can barely do it) but if we can find out what ELSE we can do with this concept, then we could have something new.

 

[sandwhale]

what's going on is quite simple: people conceive the limits of their world (or anything else) to what they know and don't acknowledge anything currently supassing their knowledge.

to take a stupid example but works here: before americas discovery people imagined europe to be right next to china thus making them estimate the world to be something like half the size of what it really is. same thing with brawl more discoveries bring greater depths to the game that we could not before imagine

 

[PCHU]

what's going on is quite simple: people conceive the limits of their world (or anything else) to what they know and don't acknowledge anything currently supassing their knowledge.

to take a stupid example but works here: before americas discovery people imagined europe to be right next to china thus making them estimate the world to be something like half the size of what it really is. same thing with brawl more discoveries bring greater depths to the game that we could not before imagine

THIS GUY.....has got it.

I hope this helps you guys see what I'm trying to say here.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

Do you mean someone else will make the next one or the series is done.

Exactly. Either the someone else will make the next one, or the series is done. Sakurai said Brawl was his last smash game.

Brawl sucks! While waiting for a gamebreaking technique to pop up in brawl or for SSB4 (the latter will probably be reached first), buy SC4 and remake the Brawl cast there. You might run into trouble making space animals though

LOL Gtfo.

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm not sure how long I'll leave this thread open. It will derail very, very fast.

But on topic, did you know people said "we're as good as we'll get" OVER TWO MONTHS AGO? They were wrong then, and that sentiment is still dead wrong even now. Anybody that thinks we are anywhere near the end of the metagame of Brawl is sadly mistaken.

I can't believe people even think that we're anywhere close.

How would you know if you're at the "end" of a metagame?

I mean, how do you know there's nothing else in Melee's code? Does the term "end of a metagame" refer at all? Could it?

Kainsword, I'm almost depressed that I understood everything that you said before explaining it, like what a STAB was. I had forgotten everything I knew about pokemon metagame, why must you remind me? >.<

In any case, the thing is, Pokemon tournaments can be held online, with no gameplay changes. Brawl tournaments can't, and as such tournaments are much more scarce. No one would want to travel to a tournament that might suck, especially not a pro. Most of them aren't even coming to Brawl tournaments anyway.

Also, one thing that makes Smogon different from all other competitive communities is the fact that they don't include the standard banning axiom; that is, that banning in order to allow for more diversity is not worth it. This is universally accepted pretty much everywhere but the competitive Naruto community and the competitive Pokemon community.

Here in Smash, we do have a diversity axiom - it states that one-character metagames are bad. The difference in value is intriguing. Why are two character metas okay for fighters?

 

[metaXzero]

I mean how the heck do you get a second jump AFTER you've used it?
What is in the game's mechanics that allows you to do something like that?
I never said ISJR was a GOOD tech (heck, I can barely do it) but if we can find out what ELSE we can do with this concept, then we could have something new.

Its a strange glitch. No real explanation to my knowledge.

what's going on is quite simple: people conceive the limits of their world (or anything else) to what they know and don't acknowledge anything currently supassing their knowledge.

to take a stupid example but works here: before americas discovery people imagined europe to be right next to china thus making them estimate the world to be something like half the size of what it really is. same thing with brawl more discoveries bring greater depths to the game that we could not before imagine

You're assuming their IS some big, unthinkable ATs to be found. WDing was found shortly after Melee's release, but took several months to refine. We're a more experienced community, yet in a similar time frame, we've found nothing rivaling WD and L-cancel. We haven't even found a confusing tech to refine over several months like WD. And most other communities find the big stuff in their games in the first few months. Why are we so different that we need a year or 2 to find a big discovery?

 

[GofG]

No, Smash's diversity axiom is what I said it is: banning in order to allow for mor diversity is not worth it.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Orion, has it really gotten any deeper than it was 3 months ago? The only actual useful thing that's been discovered is hyphen smashing, mortar sliding, and the IC's infinite. Maybe quickdrawing, but honestly, it's in the same boat with flame canceling with bowser; it doesn't help the metagame at all.

I thought mortar sliding had been known forever. I remember watching a video of it like a week after Brawl came out.

 

[GofG]

Er, yeah. I wasn't trying to imply that mortar sliding was discovered less than 3 months ago, sorry.

 

[Eggm]

My disbelief in Brawl's worth was solidified when I went to NC Jubilee. I watched Chu Dat play his Kirby in both doubles and tournament matches, plus some money matches. His Kirby right now is undisputed as the best in the world, afaik. It seemed to me that the only thing he was doing better than any other kirby i've seen was reading his opponent. Anyone can do the basic throw combos, and anyone can master the minimal amount of tech skill necessary to play kirby; it was all about reading your opponent.

Melee was about reading your opponent only if the two players were on the same tech skill level; otherwise the player with more tech skill would win, unless the other player was VASTLY better at reading his opponent. In Brawl, though, since there is very little tech skill, we IMMEDIATELY hit the point where reading your opponent is what determines who is the winner. When I saw Chu Dat's Kirby, and I knew that he was the best in the world, I realized that Brawl was shallower than Melee, because literally, it isn't as deep. You master the techskill of brawl in a day, the tech skill of your favorite character in a week, and then you're set to learn how to read your opponent.

Edit: 600 posts!!

This was like. The best post ever. Yet it was ignored (not to surprising this is the brawl boards). Panda also your explanation was super vauge, you did not give one specific example of why you thought the metagame was still advancing.

ANYWAYS. the easy interpretation of what GoFG said is this.

In brawl the whole game comes down to reading your opponent. Now this is pretty much true for every game. What makes it lame in brawl is that the things you have to do in order to be at the point where you do whatever you think in the game (aka tech skill) is so easy that ANYONE with a little bit of time can do it.

Some people Might like a game shallow game like this. Cause they don't have to invest a year gaining matchup / tech skill experience needed to simply have to read your opponent with your character and win. But others like to practice hard and be rewarded with their skill like in melee and have a deep metagame.

 

[MarKO X]

You want AT? Let me present a (possibly ridiculous) idea:

Foxtrotting for spacing... It's no wavedash, but dashing in small increments may help you measure the distance betweem you and your opponent. Some of the thing I do with foxtrotting include shield cancelling, stutter stepping, and hyphen smashing. I haven't fully refined the last parts, but foxtrotting definitely helps my spacing. Try it.

 

[SmashChu]

Brawl hasn't even been out for six months yet, and it already feels like the highest level of skill has plateau'd. I played some of the PR guys today for Southern Ontario (whether they're sandbagging or not doesn't matter, because you never know for sure), and it was really a coin flip whether who won or not. Pretty much whoever makes the first mistake usually loses. Since everyone can get to this high level of play so fast, how much deeper is Brawl's metagame, if deeper at all?

Now, I have no problem playing against Snake or Metaknight players, but I had a little idea.

What do you think would happen to Brawl's metagame if no one played Snake or Metaknight for the next six months of Brawl? Since so many people play Snake and Metaknight at the moment, it's obvious that characters are being placed at the bottom of a hypothetical tier list because they don't have much play time. People aren't taking the time to discover techniques and strategies with these characters, ex: Link and Samus.

Link and Samus are very low on the hypothetical tier list, but really I think this is because they're not popular characters. I play a pretty mean Samus, and I've seen a few amazing Samus players too, actually. Also, my friend 4Serial plays Link and can also beat the top PR players in Southern Ontario (whether they're sandbagging or not doesn't matter, because you never know for sure). Keep in mind that these PR guys are MK mains.

Anyways, what do you think would happen if we put a taboo on Snake and Metaknight during tournament play? Perhaps even GaW?
Do you think other characters would really begin to develop? Or do you think that it wouldn't make a difference in the end?

It's been six months and the amount of Snake and MK players are off the charts. Which other uncommon characters do you think might explode as "Top Tier" if we were to outlaw Snake and MK for the next six?

I'm not saying anyone is ever going to do this, let alone that it's possible, but it's just a thought for discussion, which is what forums are about.

The reason for a slow metagame should be obvious. There are no major techniques. You could look back at old Melee videos and see differences from the news ones. With things like Wavedashing and dashdancing, you could see a large different. Brawl doesn't have these so there isn't much of a difference.

But Brawl's will still evolve, just a lot more subtle. Brawl will be like how I played Melee for 6 years. It wasn't about mind games and techniques but learning your character, your opponents character, and how to adapt. These were the three keys to victory, and it will probably be this way from Brawl.

Even when playing with friends, the game became more balanced. It was no longer who was super quick and wavedahsed the best, or who had the better techniques, but to learn your opponent and his/her character. You had to read what was coming next rather then simply react. You also had to know the character, a reason why I could beat my friends with the lowliest characters. This is why I feel that characters like Meta-Knight and Snake will be betten by other high tier characters and that every so often you'll see a Mario or Sonic do really well in a tournamant. Meta-Knight and (especially) Snake will suffer as they will be the character everyone knows, even the Meta-Knight and Snake players. So another high tier character will do really well against them simply becuase they know them so well. Alternately, you may see a low character do really well becuase no one knows how to fight them but they know how to fight everyone else.

Brawl will become a much different playing field then Melee, but change will be subtle. The Brawl smasher will be more educated on other characters and use this to win. He/she has to, else he/she will lose to someone who does.

Like you mentioned, without the techniques, it may come down to who makes the first mistake. This isn't a bad thing as this is how an even match is broken and won. Doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[GofG]

Why will the Brawl smasher be more educated on other characters than the Melee smasher? What reasoning is there for this?

 

[SmashChu]

Why will the Brawl smasher be more educated on other characters than the Melee smasher? What reasoning is there for this?

It was in the post.
Brawl will rely more on knowing your opponents character and how that character plays. Thus, the Brawl smashers will have to know the roster a lot more then those from Melee.

In Melee, knowing the techniques, using them, and of course, mindgames, were the way to win. The character was more an extension of that. In Brawl, becuase of the lack of techs, players will have to rely on the knowledge of the opponents character. Brawl will become a lot more about predicting and adapting.

Of course, this is also due to Brawl being slower then Melee. In Melee, a gamer would move really fast, characters would die early on and the match could change hands at any second. Essentially, it was a twitch game; however, Brawl is a lot slower. The focus will be on knowing what is coming next, and this comes from knowing your opponent's character and what he or she specifically will do. It was evident in OP's post as he mentioned that it comes down to who ever makes the first mistake. It shows now rather then a fast paced game moving back and forth, Brawl becomes a game of precision. Look at Brawl games compared to Melee ones. No only do hands not change so rapidly (to where someone could be leading and dead within seconds) but it takes a lot longer to die. This shows a lot of that it is about predicting and adapting rather then perfectionist movements.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

I agree with SmashChu.

In Melee most players rely on their techskill and speed to win, considering the game is so fast. Obviously those players with tech skill and in depth knowledge will have the upper hand, but even if you do have all that character knowledge you probably won't have time to recall it all in your head while you're playing.

Since Brawl is alot slower placed and you don't have all those advanced techniques to keep your mind occupied, you have much more time to recall characters strengths and weakenesses and matchups and whatnot.

 

[PCHU]

It was in the post.
Brawl will rely more on knowing your opponents character and how that character plays. Thus, the Brawl smashers will have to know the roster a lot more then those from Melee.

In Melee, knowing the techniques, using them, and of course, mindgames, were the way to win. The character was more an extension of that. In Brawl, becuase of the lack of techs, players will have to rely on the knowledge of the opponents character. Brawl will become a lot more about predicting and adapting.

Of course, this is also due to Brawl being slower then Melee. In Melee, a gamer would move really fast, characters would die early on and the match could change hands at any second. Essentially, it was a twitch game; however, Brawl is a lot slower. The focus will be on knowing what is coming next, and this comes from knowing your opponent's character and what he or she specifically will do. It was evident in OP's post as he mentioned that it comes down to who ever makes the first mistake. It shows now rather then a fast paced game moving back and forth, Brawl becomes a game of precision. Look at Brawl games compared to Melee ones. No only do hands not change so rapidly (to where someone could be leading and dead within seconds) but it takes a lot longer to die. This shows a lot of that it is about predicting and adapting rather then perfectionist movements.

I've had some pretty quick matches in Brawl. I've had four stock matches turned into 1-2 minute matches 'cause I could predict my opponent (I was Ike, and I got most kills from a spike or a well-placed fsmash).

 

[Fletch]

Of course, this is also due to Brawl being slower then Melee. In Melee, a gamer would move really fast, characters would die early on and the match could change hands at any second. Essentially, it was a twitch game; however, Brawl is a lot slower. The focus will be on knowing what is coming next, and this comes from knowing your opponent's character and what he or she specifically will do. It was evident in OP's post as he mentioned that it comes down to who ever makes the first mistake. It shows now rather then a fast paced game moving back and forth, Brawl becomes a game of precision. Look at Brawl games compared to Melee ones. No only do hands not change so rapidly (to where someone could be leading and dead within seconds) but it takes a lot longer to die. This shows a lot of that it is about predicting and adapting rather then perfectionist movements.

I'm not sure I agree with this... In Melee, mistakes with characters such as Fox, Falco, or Falcon can often mean the loss of a stock where this is certainly not the case in Brawl. I think you may want to rephrase that.

 

[Fletch]

I agree with SmashChu.

In Melee most players rely on their techskill and speed to win, considering the game is so fast. Obviously those players with tech skill and in depth knowledge will have the upper hand, but even if you do have all that character knowledge you probably won't have time to recall it all in your head while you're playing.

Since Brawl is alot slower placed and you don't have all those advanced techniques to keep your mind occupied, you have much more time to recall characters strengths and weakenesses and matchups and whatnot.

Another common misconception about Melee. In Melee, Silent Wolf is probably the most technical player around (almost inhumanly so), yet he doesn't win any major tournaments (not knocking him, he'd still destroy me). Also, for a good deal of Melee's lifespan, Ken was the best player, and I would probably not even consider him in the top 25 as far as overall tech skill went.

EDIT: I'm a noob, sorry for the double post

 

[GofG]

I nearly beat Toasty twice in serious ness dittos (one friendly, one money match), both times it came down to last stock %120+, and he has far more tech skill than I do.

 

[ADHD]

Even if brawl had wavedashing and L-canceling the chaingrabs still exist, and cannot be DI'd out of, the slow pace, and stupid recoveries still exist, etc.