Is it Noob Friendly?

[Rhubarbo]

I have heard many complaints about how Brawl is easier and slower to accomodate the n00bs. If this is infact a reality, I am deeply disappointed. Melee was a step forawrds in the right direction. Fluid gameplay, great blend of strategy and dexterity, great techniques (I could live without wavedashing and l-cancelling). Here is my estimation on why Nintendo took this route:

When you go to a party/gathering and you bring Melee along, assuming you are like most players on this board, you'd anihilate everyone. This will discourage players to go purchase the game, hence Nintendo makes less money (I can't see how 10 million coppies is little <_<). Apparently, someone on the Japanese preview Dojo asked if they could make the game slower...

The dillema with this is that I know some n00bs that are complaining the game is not as intense and exciting as Melee -_-. Now, I can not verify this for sure, but could someone who has played the game clarify to me what's going on?

 

[Bish]

I think that the great thing about the series was that it was always a good game for serious gamers and noobs alike. To me it really blurred the line between a casual and hardcore gamer and just made it fun for everyone. To put it briefly: The game is simple enough for noobs but complex enough for serious gamers.

I don't want to judge the speed before I play it but I doubt that it will significantly affect my view of the game. The slower speed seems to give more room for strategy and whether or not that is fun is very subjective. Still, the battles I've seen seem fast paced enough to retain the excitement that I knew from the previous smash bros. games.

 

[Yuna]

Being n00b friendly isn't necessarily bad. It's just that the game sucks Toot's balls because of all of the changes they made to make it more n00b friendly.

 

[Rhubarbo]

The game doesn't really intentionally focus on strategy. If so, why would recovery be made so easy? It's a shame how effortlessly most people recover.

 

[Nuvia]

Why don't you PLAY the game before you pass judgment.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Being n00b friendly isn't necessarily bad. It's just that the game sucks Toot's balls because of all of the changes they made to make it more n00b friendly.

That's why it got 3 100%'s so far, eh?

YEs, it's more noob-friendly. Much more. Sakurai even says so in his interview with Iwata.

 

[soviet prince]

Why don't you PLAY the game before you pass judgment.

QFT, from what I seen from the videos it still looks quite intresting.

 

[pirkid]

I'd rather not judge until I can actually get some game time under my belt.

 

[Norgay]

Alright, well when i first played the game, I could play it kind of without really knowing what move does what, so i guess it is kinda noob friendly. I didn't play with any noobs really, well one person kinda lol, but the people among us who were better at melee seemed to win more matches then those who weren't as good at melee. But yea, recovery is pretty easy, except in final destination when you get stuck under the platform =/

 

[Yuna]

Why don't you PLAY the game before you pass judgment.

I did.

That's why it got 3 100%'s so far, eh?

YEs, it's more noob-friendly. Much more. Sakurai even says so in his interview with Iwata.

By whom? Magazines infamous for n00by reviews of fighting games and a penchant for overrating Nintendo games?

They're not competitive players. They judge the game on the graphics, music, items, party game elements, fan service elements, etc.

I'm judging it from a competitive standpoint.

 

[Nuvia]

I did.


I'm judging it from a competitive standpoint.

I wasn't addressing you specifically.


Oh well yeah the game definitely sucks as a competitive game lol
It's a good thing I don't care about that.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Yuna, if you dislike Brawl so much, then why do you lurk its forums? I'm quite sure nobody likes someone who just visits a forum to flame a game.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Why don't you PLAY the game before you pass judgment.

I'm not making a conclusive statement, I'm merely asking people whom have played the game how they like it.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, if you dislike Brawl so much, then why do you lurk its forums? I'm quite sure nobody likes someone who just visits a forum to flame a game.

I don't just flame it. I'm actively participating in trying to figure out its gaming engine and (possible) advanced techniques.

I post a lot of positive and neutral things. I don't flame the game. I give out my honest opinion. If someone asks "Is it n00b friendly", I'll reply "Yes". If someone claims Final Smashes should be used in tournaments, I say "Hell no! And this is why:".

Also:
Lurking - Hanging around without actually taking part in the discussion.

 

[Demon Kirby]

I know what lurking is.

It just seems to me I only ever see you post negative things.

 

[Nuvia]

I'm not making a conclusive statement, I'm merely asking people whom have played the game how they like it.

Well that's fine and good. But you can't just ask people about something if you seriously want to get the whole gist of it.

 

[smashbro29]

well maybe instead of wavedashing and stuff it will be mostly mind-games i'd love that

 

[Yuna]

I know what lurking is.

It just seems to me I only ever see you post negative things.

Yeah, you're not looking hard enough. Also, I post from a competitive standpoint. There are very few positive things about Brawl competitively.

well maybe instead of wavedashing and stuff it will be mostly mind-games i'd love that

"Wavedashing and stuff" didn't detract from the mindgaming potential. In fact, they added to it, giving us more options to mindgame with.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I could adapt without wavedashing and l-cancelling because those were un-intentional in Melee. The way Melee flowed was just better.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

As they say...

Experience beats n00bility any day

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

I hate how people always mix noob/n00b with newb.
Newb = Unexperienced/New, hence the NEW part.
Noob/n00b = Dumb, Hated, Unwanted, Troll, Spammer, Logic-less, unfair, wanna-be cool, disturbing being =O
That's why I don't like the first rank of this website. :O

Brawl is just as exciting if not more exciting than Melee, but less intense because a lot of intensity comes from speed.
Brawl was made so that newbs, casuals, and hardcore players can all experience the joy together. Brawl is character-specific, whereas Melee was loaded with advanced techniques that amplified the competitiveness. Now, in a Marth VS. Luigi and a Marth VS. Wolf, the Marth player would probably have to play in a more different style than in Melee. I prefer the Brawl way over Melee because it adds more depth to the game by making a larger variety of skilled battles possible.

Brawl could be competitive, much more than Melee(?), but under a whole new style. It requires more thinking and strategies, but less timing and precision with slower ways. It's not super-intense, but it's imo a more interest way to play and watch others play. Well, not like an MLG tourney type of thing sadly, but interesting nonetheless.

BTW, kicking @$$ at a part wont discourage gamers to get Melee, shouldn't make them envious and want to go out and by Melee and try to get good enough to kick A$S too?

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

I could adapt without wavedashing and l-cancelling because those were un-intentional in Melee. The way Melee flowed was just better.

L canceling was always put into Smash on purpose. It was explained on the 64 website as Z canceling, and it returned in Melee.
Wavedashing as a whole, yea, unintended. Shorthopping = yes, directional air dodging = yes, air dodges landing on surfaces = yes (because it's essentially the down-dodge you do on the ground only in a direction), but all together at an insanely (well sort of) fast rate = WOAH never thought of that lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, personally me, I hate games that are excessively technical. Melee had very sensitive controls, which easily got you punished for a misstep. I miss L-cancels, and I air dodge to my death, despite me knowing my fair share of the metagame in Melee. It really, really limits my combo options a lot when I simply have a tough time technically performing something because the game goes by too fast. A game doesn't need to be incredibly sensitive to be intricate as far as I'm concerned.

Brawl seems to focus much more on counterpicking and reading your opponents metagame as opposed to being able to perform technical feats reliably. Not saying the first two weren't important in Melee, as they are what truly separate good players from bad players. If a technique can theoretically be performed by a n00b, then it only encourages better players to strategically find a way around it. That I'm totally for.

 

[S2]

I'd wager that the slower gameplay was due to technical reasons.

1.) To get the game running lag free online

2.) Crazier items

Keep in mind that the game has to run at full speed regardless of the situation.

Sakurai had to make sure that if players did FFAs online with

1.) the crazier characters - Olimar, IC, DDD - where they techincally are more challanging due to more going on. (DDD is here for his waddle/gordo summons)

2.) crazier stages

3.) Big pokeball pokemon

4.) maximum items

All these things have to run well together online. Seriously, its a lot of stuff on the processor all at once.

Even take how Sheik (and ZSS and Warioman) work now.

In Melee you used to be able to change into Sheik/Zelda quickly because they were both loaded into the ram before the match. The longer switch in Brawl is very much due to it needing to load the seperate character up. I've seen the game running on a modded Wii having trouble loading the game (it would take much longer to load anything off the disc- you could tell in game when certain characters had to be loaded off the disc as opposed to being in the ram upon the initial battle load)


Long story short, I'd wager the slowed gameplay (and its not that much slower, it just feels that way due ot the ATs like WDing being gone) is due to keeping the game running smoothly even when online. Keep in mind Brawl runs smoother than Melee did.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I think I'm with A2ZOMG. I like games fast but not ZOMG BUTTON RUSH like I'd seen in high level Melee matches (blame it on being raised on Sonic games lawl). Brawl looks much more akin to a thinking man's fighter and being much closer to knowing your character's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Lingy]

The only thing I don't like that they did to make this 'newb friendly' is that they made the 'get blown out of boundary' lines smaller, so even the smallest knockbacks will have you lose a stock.

 

[DraginHikari]

Um okay... Smash was a fairly easy game for anyone to learn how to play the basics, isn't that pretty much what makes something user-friendly? Even with the more advance stuff it is still easier to learn Smash then it is to even get halfway decent at most other ifghting games.

Either way the term n00b and scrub is getting annoying either way.

 

[§leepy God]

Some modes for beginners like Spectator and Handycap. Of course the creater of Smash said to be kind to beginners and so on, then people say it's for newcomers and so on and so on. Like most people say, I think this game is for both new and pro to enjoy and play, you know I will.

To the Post above: Nice Avatar

 

[DraginHikari]

Some modes for beginners like Spectator and Handycap. Of course the creater of Smash said to be kind to beginners and so on, then people say it's for newcomers and so on and so on. Like most people say, I think this game is for both new and pro to enjoy and play, you know I will.

To the Post above: Nice Avatar

Not quite enough Ike Avatars to go around XD

 

[Blackshadow]

Competitive players are in the minority. The game was slowed down not because Sakurai has some irrational hate of people "ruining" his game, its because the majority of Smash players are casual, AKA not competitive. Sakurai is simply catering to the majority, and thats good business sense.


Now stop making so many **** casual/competitive threads.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Competitive players are in the minority. The game was slowed down not because Sakurai has some irrational hate of people "ruining" his game, its because the majority of Smash players are casual, AKA not competitive. Sakurai is simply catering to the majority, and thats good business sense.


Now stop making so many **** casual/competitive threads.

QFT

And to add to that.Same things been done to all the games thats been "hot" the past decade.Halo or GTA ring any bells? If they dont,well I help you understand.Those games sold well not because of their content/graphics.They sold well because of their ease of play.Easy learning curve=easy money,and what better way to make more cheddar than doing what the bigger group loves more? Thats why the Wii is also selling well as a reminder.

 

[Igneous42]

I did.


By whom? Magazines infamous for n00by reviews of fighting games and a penchant for overrating Nintendo games?

They're not competitive players. They judge the game on the graphics, music, items, party game elements, fan service elements, etc.

I'm judging it from a competitive standpoint.

Which makes up less of the market.....that's why things are the way they are now. Most people will only play smash bros on a casual level. So why not close the gap? especially with online entering the fray? And just because those people played the game from a more casual standpoint doesn't mean you can brush it off.

But really plenty of competitive players seem fine with Brawl. It's not going to change now, deal with it. If you hate it that much then just stick with Melee no one is forcing you to play Brawl.

 

[Doomgaze]

Like Yuna says, removing wavedashing and pretty much most ATs doesn't automatically contribute to making Brawl more "mind gamey"; it's quite the contrary! I guess only newbies who have neither played Brawl nor mastered wave dashing in melee in the first place is making a fuss here.

Now, I can sorta understand why they removed certain techniques because of online play making it more difficult to push a button in a specific time window. But that doesn't go for all ATs they removed. Why did they nerf dash dancing for instance? And what's this misconception that making a game slower, more floaty, would be beneficial for new players? That's not true at all. That's bull****.

And a further note about Brawl ATs.. People say that "well, the game has only been out one week. It took years for melee to evolve it's ATs".. Well maybe because at first, nobody knew what to look for? In Brawl a lot of people has had it for a few weeks now, and trying to explicitly find new techniques. There's no guarantee new ATs will ever be found.

Myself I'm a casual player but with a competitive mindset (I don't like playing with items on Fed uped stages). When I read some posts around here I'm ashamed ot calling myself casual <<

 

[Rhubarbo]

L canceling was always put into Smash on purpose. It was explained on the 64 website as Z canceling, and it returned in Melee.
Wavedashing as a whole, yea, unintended. Shorthopping = yes, directional air dodging = yes, air dodges landing on surfaces = yes (because it's essentially the down-dodge you do on the ground only in a direction), but all together at an insanely (well sort of) fast rate = WOAH never thought of that lol.

L-cancelling was probably not intentionally placed in Smash64 to begin with, but Melee kept it because the two games used the same physics engine. Brawl now uses Havok, so they re-worked the game bottom up.

 

[Yuna]

Which makes up less of the market.....that's why things are the way they are now. Most people will only play smash bros on a casual level. So why not close the gap? especially with online entering the fray? And just because those people played the game from a more casual standpoint doesn't mean you can brush it off.

What is this BS mindset of "Let's close the gap up"? Why must we close in the gap between casual and competitive? I mean, the casuals will still remain casuals. They're casuals because they want to (and there's nothing wrong with that)! The competitive players want to play the game on a different level, to learn everything they can to take the game to a new level. They casuals magically start trying to get into the competitive scene now that there aren't any ATs. They won't try to learn the advanced techs to become better (not anymoreso than before).

Sakurai didn't put in new exciting advanced techs or simply make them easier to use. He removed a lot of them altogether. That's not closing in the gap as in "It's easier for casuals to get technical at this game now". That's limiting what you can do with the game, forcing everyone to stay on the same technical level (and now all we have is camping and mindgames)!

But really plenty of competitive players seem fine with Brawl. It's not going to change now, deal with it. If you hate it that much then just stick with Melee no one is forcing you to play Brawl.

Doesn't mean I have to sit by quietly when misinformation and outright lies are spread.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yuna, ever since fighters existed, mindgames WERE the real game, and that is the real thing, and should be the only real thing that separates professionals from casuals as far as I'm concerned. IMO it's pretty pointless to have a technique in a game if it is nearly impossible to perform, except by only a few people, and then that kills the gameplay if it happens to be gamebreaking against the people who simply can't perform it. Melee punishes you waaaaay too much for having a sloppy hand. As I said, I'm the kind of person who knowsa decent amount about the metagame for characters, but I'm one who simply can't keep up with the pace of Melee. Really kinda demoralizing in a sense to be me.

Didn't most of the advanced techniques get removed for balancing the gameplay between characters? It really seems like that, and if that's the case, I think that is more important to accomplish than adding technical depth, when the characters by far are most definitely unique. I'm eager to see G&W and Mario winning tournaments this time around. =P

 

[Rhubarbo]

The reason Sakurai closed the gap is so that noobs that get smacked on there first attempt at playing wont be discouraged to buy the game.

 

[iruchii]

People are forgetting Brawl is a completely new game. It's not Melee, and it's not going to be played like Melee.

Instead of using wavedashes and infinite chain grab alpha extremes, Brawl will teach us to know what our characters can and can't do in certain situations. "Your FAir is laggy? Don't use it against fast characters." with Melee, you could just L-Cancel it, and even though lag cancel was not a 'glitch', it kind of ruined the way they planned the game to be. If the development team wanted your FAir to be laggy, then it should be laggy, for god's sake!

It seems the difference between a competitive player and a casual player in Brawl will be knowing when, how and why to use certain moves in certain characters at certain times. It'll be a completely different playstyle from Melee, and we just need to get used to it.

Besides, by closing the gap between 'casuals' and 'tourneypeople', it just means we'll have more people to play and have good matches. (;

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, ever since fighters existed, mindgames WERE the real game, and that is the real thing, and should be the only real thing that separates professionals from casuals as far as I'm concerned. IMO it's pretty pointless to have a technique in a game if it is nearly impossible to perform, except by only a few people, and then that kills the gameplay if it happens to be gamebreaking against the people who simply can't perform it. Melee punishes you waaaaay too much for having a sloppy hand. As I said, I'm the kind of person who knowsa decent amount about the metagame for characters, but I'm one who simply can't keep up with the pace of Melee. Really kinda demoralizing in a sense to be me.

Melee doesn't punish you for having a sloppy technical game. I know of tons of people who can do frame-perfect techs and shine tricks but who lose cataclysmically to much less technical players (like, say, me) because they lack hatre... mindgames.

The advanced techniques don't break the game in a manner that it's impossible to win without them. In fact, a lot of elite players don't spam wavedash and other "ATs". What ATs do is add options to your mindgames. They allow you more options to mixup (mindgames), fake-out (mindgames), bait (mindgames), etc., etc., etc., etc.

I mean, what do you think mindgames are? And what do you think ATs are used for? Simply to speed yourself up beyond the perceptional ability to others?

Didn't most of the advanced techniques get removed for balancing the gameplay between characters? It really seems like that, and if that's the case, I think that is more important to accomplish than adding technical depth, when the characters by far are most definitely unique. I'm eager to see G&W and Mario winning tournaments this time around. =P

How does it "balance gameplay"? It just took away options. Now we're stuck with fewer options to mindgame with.

Just because the ATs have been removed doesn't mean low tiered characters (if G&W and Mario) will automatically get a boost. In fact, they'll probably suffer from it because why did the low tiers suck in Melee? Because most of them were slow, suffered great lag on aerials and moves and couldn't combo or KO well. They will still suffer from all of that unless they were changed somehow.

The reason Sakurai closed the gap is so that noobs that get smacked on there first attempt at playing wont be discouraged to buy the game.

Why whould n00bs get smacked to bits on their first attempt at playing the game? How many n00bs walk into a room and challenge an elite player, anyway? How many elite players hang out where n00bs hang out to destroy them?

If you're talking about the online system, very few competitive players are going to be playing With Anyone because it's 2 minutes of 4-man FFA on Time!

Also, you know what, if a n00b walks into a room, has never played a game before, challenges someone who's obviously played it before (if not until after the game where the player has shown that they know what they're doing), loses and then says "Wow! I just got my *** handed to me! How come I couldn't destroy this player who'd played the game a lot before on my first try?", then I'm kinda glad they're not picking up Smash.

Because that's the description of an idiot. Of course you'll get your *** handed to you the first time you play a fighting game if your opponent is good! Nothing will ever prevent that unless the other party screws up royally! The removal of ATs won't matter. If I practice and learn all there is to know about the game (combos, approaches, fakeouts, mindgames, etc.), I will still destroy people who've never played the game before or have very limited experience with it!

Nothing can ever stop that unless we introduce huge elements of luck where I could at any time randomly die no matter how hard I try not to!

 

[LinkGadra]

Like Yuna says, removing wavedashing and pretty much most ATs doesn't automatically contribute to making Brawl more "mind gamey"; it's quite the contrary! I guess only newbies who have neither played Brawl nor mastered wave dashing in melee in the first place is making a fuss here.

Now, I can sorta understand why they removed certain techniques because of online play making it more difficult to push a button in a specific time window. But that doesn't go for all ATs they removed. Why did they nerf dash dancing for instance? And what's this misconception that making a game slower, more floaty, would be beneficial for new players? That's not true at all. That's bull****.

And a further note about Brawl ATs.. People say that "well, the game has only been out one week. It took years for melee to evolve it's ATs".. Well maybe because at first, nobody knew what to look for? In Brawl a lot of people has had it for a few weeks now, and trying to explicitly find new techniques. There's no guarantee new ATs will ever be found.

Myself I'm a casual player but with a competitive mindset (I don't like playing with items on Fed uped stages). When I read some posts around here I'm ashamed ot calling myself casual <<

That doesn't change the fact that Brawl isn't Melee. Just because something works in one game doesn't mean it will work that way in the sequel. To all the competitive players hating on Brawl because it's not Melee, consider this:

There are only two real options for Brawl:
1. Brawl is a deep game in it's own right, and will have a good competitive scene either with or without the 'old hands' of Melee, or...
2. Brawl is a shallow game, and will not have a good competitive scene while the 'old hands' go back (or stay with) Melee.

It is simply too early in Brawl's life to determine which way it will go. Just give it some time, the truth will be known soon enough.