Is it Noob Friendly?

[Soluble Toast]

I can't say I agree with taking Melee to parties O.o...

Most Wii games are dumbed down, and made more NEWB friendly ( This forum seems to have a severe lack of knowledge as to the difference between newbs and n00bs) Look at Corruption, and TP. Nintendo seem to be getting a lot worse with dumbing down the difficulty. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[Lord Knight]

To be honest, we don't really know what to look for since this game is running on a different engine.

 

[Mr. M]

To be honest, we don't really know what to look for since this game is running on a different engine.

Oh sweet jesus no! It has to be Melee 2.0 or I won't go to the tournaments anymore. I'll cry cry cry till I get my way, which will never happen.


inb4yunabash

 

[Yuna]

That doesn't change the fact that Brawl isn't Melee. Just because something works in one game doesn't mean it will work that way in the sequel. To all the competitive players hating on Brawl because it's not Melee, consider this:

We're not complaining about it not being Melee. Quote a single post where I've done that. I wouldn't mind if the game were so different so long as it was still deep and had a lot of options you can choose between!

It's not that it's different. It's how it's different.

There are only two real options for Brawl:
1. Brawl is a deep game in it's own right, and will have a good competitive scene either with or without the 'old hands' of Melee, or...
2. Brawl is a shallow game, and will not have a good competitive scene while the 'old hands' go back (or stay with) Melee.

1. Have you, you know, played the game? Or watched videos of high level play in Brawl (vs. high level play in Melee)? Or talked to a competitive player who has done both or either? The game is not a "deep game in its own right". In fact, as it stands know (from what we know so far), it's really that deep at all. Especially not when compared to Melee or pretty much any other fighting game on the market. I mean, even Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 was deeper in some respects. And we cannot speculate about possibly future depth that will be uncovered, so that's not a valid argument either ("We might discover ground-breaking new techniques that will break the game!"). From what we know, the game isn't very deep.

It is simply too early in Brawl's life to determine which way it will go. Just give it some time, the truth will be known soon enough.

Stop using this inane argument. Why are we even on these board (why are you on these boards) if we're apparently not allowed to discuss the game since "it's too early"? I mean, it's too early to discuss anything. Who knows what we might discover in the future that'll change the face of Brawl as we know it?

Also, it is not too early. We have tons of people, some competitive, who have the game by now. A great number of them are technical players who set out to discover and re-discover new and old techniques. We're working very hard on it. Unless there are hidden technique so obscure and hard to do all ATs in Melee pale in comparison, we're hardly going to find many new ones.

Also, the game engine itself limits the game so much that even with a few new ATs, it still won't be that deep. Unless we find a whole slew of ATs that literally break the game. ATs in Melee just gave us more options. The Brawl engine and system is so limited, there's not much we can do, even with added options from new ATs.

So unless we discover ATs that works against the game engine to create a new game, yeah, it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Yuna]

To be honest, we don't really know what to look for since this game is running on a different engine.

Advanced Techniques. We're actively looking for them by trying out pretty much everything we can try out. Unless there's a whole bunch of techniques so hidden and hard to perform it takes randomness and months to discover (which would go against Sakurai's new philosophy of "Dumb it all down so much the n00bs can play on the same technical level as the pros"), we're not gonna discover many more ATs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just because the ATs have been removed doesn't mean low tiered characters (if G&W and Mario) will automatically get a boost. In fact, they'll probably suffer from it because why did the low tiers suck in Melee? Because most of them were slow, suffered great lag on aerials and moves and couldn't combo or KO well. They will still suffer from all of that unless they were changed somehow.

I'm somewhat pressed for time, but I have to disagree here. G&W without L-canceling in Brawl is significantly better (I mean by several tiers) than he was in Melee. He's received numerous buffs to his defensive options and recovery. His shield covers him, attacks like his D-smash, B-air, and U-air are MUCH safer to use. His recovery has also totally changed. BTW, The only low tiers who seem worse right now are DK and Ganon really.

 

[Yuna]

I'm somewhat pressed for time, but I have to disagree here. G&W without L-canceling in Brawl is significantly better (I mean by several tiers) than he was in Melee. He's received numerous buffs to his defensive options and recovery. His shield covers him, attacks like his D-smash, B-air, and U-air are MUCH safer to use. His recovery has also totally changed. BTW, The only low tiers who seem worse right now are DK and Ganon really.

You see, this is where you're wrong.

I never said G&W wouldn't be better if they, you know, made him better (in fact, I made it a point to point the very same things as the ones below out). I said that simply removing L-cancel won't make low tiers automatically move up.

Let's play Melee. And ban L-cancel. Do you really think G&W would magically skip two tiers?

This is Brawl, it's a new game with new moves, new properties, new engine. Of course G&W is better than in Melee if they buffed him! But he didn't magically become better because L-canceling was removed. He became better because, you know, they made him better.

Two the must not be connected. Much like how I can wield a stick and not have lions attack it, G&W being better now is because of his buffs, not because of the L-cancel, like how my stick is just a normal stick and there are no lions where I live.

And Ganondorf was never a Low Tier.

 

[Lord Knight]

Mr. M, you totally misiterpreted my post. My setup should have been clearer. Right now a bunch of players are hunting for AT's. All right, cool. However, how do we know what kind of things to look for if we explore the Brawl engine the way we did Melee? We can't, since Brawl runs on a different engine. This game has to approached differently. So I can very easily say that no, we don't know what to look for.

1. Have you, you know, played the game? Or watched videos of high level play in Brawl (vs. high level play in Melee)? Or talked to a competitive player who has done both or either? The game is not a "deep game in its own right". In fact, as it stands know (from what we know so far), it's really that deep at all. Especially not when compared to Melee or pretty much any other fighting game on the market. I mean, even Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 was deeper in some respects. And we cannot speculate about possibly future depth that will be uncovered, so that's not a valid argument either ("We might discover ground-breaking new techniques that will break the game!"). From what we know, the game isn't very deep.

There isn't a high level of Brawl yet. We don't understand character matchups, don't know what lnks into what, don't know properties of everyone's moveset, we don't know a lot. Brawl's pretty much playing like Melee week 2 right now.

Also, I didn't know AT's were the only thing that defined the depth of a game. Other fighters do not contain THAT many AT's as we define them. For example, Street Fighter 3rd Strike has only one real advanced technique, Kara throwing, but the game is still incredibly deep. Melty Blood just has sheild bunker canceling (at least, that's unique to it). Not that I'm against finding/using any discoveries we might make, but having that as the sole arguement against the game's depth is a bit ridicoulous.

EDIT:

Advanced Techniques. We're actively looking for them by trying out pretty much everything we can try out. Unless there's a whole bunch of techniques so hidden and hard to perform it takes randomness and months to discover (which would go against Sakurai's new philosophy of "Dumb it all down so much the n00bs can play on the same technical level as the pros"), we're not gonna discover many more ATs.

You mean like all the Melee stuff?

 

[LinkGadra]

We're not complaining about it not being Melee. Quote a single post where I've done that. I wouldn't mind if the game were so different so long as it was still deep and had a lot of options you can choose between!

It's not that it's different. It's how it's different.


1. Have you, you know, played the game? Or watched videos of high level play in Brawl (vs. high level play in Melee)? Or talked to a competitive player who has done both or either? The game is not a "deep game in its own right". In fact, as it stands know (from what we know so far), it's really that deep at all. Especially not when compared to Melee or pretty much any other fighting game on the market. I mean, even Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 was deeper in some respects. And we cannot speculate about possibly future depth that will be uncovered, so that's not a valid argument either ("We might discover ground-breaking new techniques that will break the game!"). From what we know, the game isn't very deep.


Stop using this inane argument. Why are we even on these board (why are you on these boards) if we're apparently not allowed to discuss the game since "it's too early"? I mean, it's too early to discuss anything. Who knows what we might discover in the future that'll change the face of Brawl as we know it?

Also, it is not too early. We have tons of people, some competitive, who have the game by now. A great number of them are technical players who set out to discover and re-discover new and old techniques. We're working very hard on it. Unless there are hidden technique so obscure and hard to do all ATs in Melee pale in comparison, we're hardly going to find many new ones.

Also, the game engine itself limits the game so much that even with a few new ATs, it still won't be that deep. Unless we find a whole slew of ATs that literally break the game. ATs in Melee just gave us more options. The Brawl engine and system is so limited, there's not much we can do, even with added options from new ATs.

So unless we discover ATs that works against the game engine to create a new game, yeah, it ain't gonna happen.

Did I say that you had said that? I was speaking in general, not aimed at any one poster. If you look around, you'll find plenty of people doing what I just said.

It's a fighting game. Those are the only options available to any fighting game. Admittedly, "Either it's good or it's not" is kind of a simplistic argument, but in some cases (such as this) it's true.

Brawl hasn't been out for a full month yet. These kind of things take time as well as effort. Besides, one of the best ways to find 'techniques' as it were, is to play the game without specifically trying to find them. "It cannot be found by seeking, but only seekers shall find it." is true in the sense that you can usually quickly find what you aren't looking for. And it is too early to be passing the definitive judgments you see sprinkling the Brawl boards. I have nothing against discussion, I just don't like to see the closed-minded "comparisons" that people are throwing around.

 

[Yuna]

Mr. M, you totally misiterpreted my post. My setup should have been clearer. Right now a bunch of players are hunting for AT's. All right, cool. However, how do we know what kind of things to look for if we explore the Brawl engine the way we did Melee? We can't, since Brawl runs on a different engine. This game has to approached differently. So I can very easily say that no, we don't know what to look for.

We're not only exploring the Brawl engine the way we did with Melee. We're exploring it in every possible way we can think of.

There isn't a high level of Brawl yet. We don't understand character matchups, don't know what lnks into what, don't know properties of everyone's moveset, we don't know a lot. Brawl's pretty much playing like Melee week 2 right now.

How hard is it to understand what moves link into what at what percentages? Or what properties everyone's movesets have?

This isn't rocket science. Unless some characters have some kind of hidden properties that occur at random ("Every 200th Marth tipper will be a gimp"), it's not hard to figure out how they work. It's called "Playing the game".

Also, I didn't know AT's were the only thing that defined the depth of a game. Other fighters do not contain THAT many AT's as we define them. For example, Street Fighter 3rd Strike has only one real advanced technique, Kara throwing, but the game is still incredibly deep. Melty Blood just has sheild bunker canceling (at least, that's unique to it). Not that I'm against finding/using any discoveries we might make, but having that as the sole arguement against the game's depth is a bit ridicoulous.

1) I never said ATs are the only things that define the depth of a game. I said ATs add to it.
2) SF3 has Kara Throwing, Canceling (whatever you call it when you cancel a normal into a Special Arts or Special Move or just another move really fast to cancel the lag), Parrying, Air-parrying, EX-moves/projectiles. They're as advanced as any ATs in Smash. What if we removed all of those except maybe parrying? Yeah, the game wouldn't be as deep anymore.
3) Yeah, stop reinterpreting people's posts to suit your own argument and it won't seem quite as ridiculous anymore.

Did I say that you had said that? I was speaking in general, not aimed at any one poster. If you look around, you'll find plenty of people doing what I just said.

No you don't. Find me, in the next hour, 10 people who have complained specifically that they have Brawl because it's not Melee 2.0, because it's simply different (not the way it's different).

If there are "plenty" of people, you should be able to do that easily. It's not relevant if one out of every 100 Smashers say this. It's only relevant if, say, one out of every 10 say it.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Melee doesn't punish you for having a sloppy technical game. I know of tons of people who can do frame-perfect techs and shine tricks but who lose cataclysmically to much less technical players (like, say, me) because they lack hatre... mindgames.

The advanced techniques don't break the game in a manner that it's impossible to win without them. In fact, a lot of elite players don't spam wavedash and other "ATs". What ATs do is add options to your mindgames. They allow you more options to mixup (mindgames), fake-out (mindgames), bait (mindgames), etc., etc., etc., etc.

I mean, what do you think mindgames are? And what do you think ATs are used for? Simply to speed yourself up beyond the perceptional ability to others?


How does it "balance gameplay"? It just took away options. Now we're stuck with fewer options to mindgame with.

Just because the ATs have been removed doesn't mean low tiered characters (if G&W and Mario) will automatically get a boost. In fact, they'll probably suffer from it because why did the low tiers suck in Melee? Because most of them were slow, suffered great lag on aerials and moves and couldn't combo or KO well. They will still suffer from all of that unless they were changed somehow.


Why whould n00bs get smacked to bits on their first attempt at playing the game? How many n00bs walk into a room and challenge an elite player, anyway? How many elite players hang out where n00bs hang out to destroy them?

If you're talking about the online system, very few competitive players are going to be playing With Anyone because it's 2 minutes of 4-man FFA on Time!

Also, you know what, if a n00b walks into a room, has never played a game before, challenges someone who's obviously played it before (if not until after the game where the player has shown that they know what they're doing), loses and then says "Wow! I just got my *** handed to me! How come I couldn't destroy this player who'd played the game a lot before on my first try?", then I'm kinda glad they're not picking up Smash.

Because that's the description of an idiot. Of course you'll get your *** handed to you the first time you play a fighting game if your opponent is good! Nothing will ever prevent that unless the other party screws up royally! The removal of ATs won't matter. If I practice and learn all there is to know about the game (combos, approaches, fakeouts, mindgames, etc.), I will still destroy people who've never played the game before or have very limited experience with it!

Nothing can ever stop that unless we introduce huge elements of luck where I could at any time randomly die no matter how hard I try not to!

Casual games don't give a f*** if they never played the game before. They want to win. What Nintendo did with Brawl was good marketing wise, just not good for us hard core gamers. This was Nintendo's last chance at appealing to the hardcore market, Brawl. How did they fu*k up this one?

No, Brawl does not have MORE strategy. It has the same strategy at a slower pace.

 

[Lord Knight]

How hard is it to understand what moves link into what at what percentages? Or what properties everyone's movesets have?

This isn't rocket science. Unless some characters have some kind of hidden properties that occur at random ("Every 200th Marth tipper will be a gimp"), it's not hard to figure out how they work. It's called "Playing the game".

You're missing the point. We haven't played the game enough to even know and understand these basics. Sure, there are smart people who are playing the game right now (I played at M2K's the other day) - but we definately don't know the kind of stuff I listed yet. You have to learn games from the bottom up. Neither the average person or the average player is not going to spend the first few hours testing every move game to see what they do or instantly hunt for combos or whatever, they're going to get a feel for the game first. I didn't know Zelda's forward B had this enormous hitbox if used from a distance until I fought Ryoko for example. I haven't seen/played as/played against the entire cast yet, so no, I won't know everything about everyone, and neither will everyone else. That's what I really think we should be starting with.

1) I never said ATs are the only things that define the depth of a game. I said ATs add to it.
2) SF3 has Kara Throwing, Canceling (whatever you call it when you cancel a normal into a Special Arts or Special Move or just another move really fast to cancel the lag), Parrying, Air-parrying, EX-moves/projectiles. They're as advanced as any ATs in Smash. What if we removed all of those except maybe parrying? Yeah, the game wouldn't be as deep anymore.
3) Yeah, stop reinterpreting people's posts to suit your own argument and it won't seem quite as ridiculous anymore.

1)Saying that this game lacks depth due to lack of advanced techniques when others also don't have many is practically the same thing.
2)These are all features of the game. "Canceling" as you defined it is just comboing, and that's not really advanced, anyone can do that. Projectiles are just a move :o. Brawl has plenty of these same features (sheild cancel grab is like kara-throwing, powersheilding is like parrying, etc). Does that make it not deep?
3)That's all I've read from you in this topic.

Brawl matches as of now won't look like Melee matches now, that's to be expected.

 

[Yuna]

You're missing the point. We haven't played the game enough to even know and understand these basics. Sure, there are smart people who are playing the game right now (I played at M2K's the other day) - but we definately don't know the kind of stuff I listed yet. You have to learn games from the bottom up. Neither the average person or the average player is not going to spend the first few hours testing every move game to see what they do or instantly hunt for combos or whatever, they're going to get a feel for the game first. I didn't know Zelda's forward B had this enormous hitbox if used from a distance until I fought Ryoko for example. I haven't seen/played as/played against the entire cast yet, so no, I won't know everything about everyone, and neither will everyone else. That's what I really think we should be starting with.

And you really think we're going to find gamebreaking new properties in time? There's not much to find. Wow, Zelda has a big hitbox on Djinn's Fire. Um, did the game just break? No. We just learned a little more about her.

The gameplay of Zelda or the entire game in itself did not change. We did not magically find out entirely new strategies.

1)Saying that this game lacks depth due to lack of advanced techniques when others also don't have many is practically the same thing.
2)These are all features of the game. "Canceling" as you defined it is just comboing, and that's not really advanced, anyone can do that. Projectiles are just a move :o. Brawl has plenty of these same features (sheild cancel grab is like kara-throwing, powersheilding is like parrying, etc). Does that make it not deep?
3)That's all I've read from you in this topic.

1) No, I said that the game has less depth because of a lack of ATs. I, then, additionally said that the game lacks depth because there isn't much depth in it. It's just that there aren't many ATs, there isn't much in the game, period when it comes to depth (as we know of at the moment).
2) Almost all "Advanced Techniques" in Melee were just features in the game! The only technique that was more of a side-effect/exploit of another technique was wavedashing. The rest were programmed into the game. It's just that some were hard to do and some weren't immediately obvious upon picking up the controller. Does not make them glitches, bugs, exploits or any less of features in the game. Powershielding does nothing anymore. You just recover slightly faster from shieldstun (which doesn't matter since there's no L-canceling and there's more shieldhitstun). I said EX-moves/projectiles. Have you even heard of them?
3) ... ...

 

[Ghettoman]

Like Yuna says, removing wavedashing and pretty much most ATs doesn't automatically contribute to making Brawl more "mind gamey"; it's quite the contrary! I guess only newbies who have neither played Brawl nor mastered wave dashing in melee in the first place is making a fuss here.

Now, I can sorta understand why they removed certain techniques because of online play making it more difficult to push a button in a specific time window. But that doesn't go for all ATs they removed. Why did they nerf dash dancing for instance? And what's this misconception that making a game slower, more floaty, would be beneficial for new players? That's not true at all. That's bull****.

And a further note about Brawl ATs.. People say that "well, the game has only been out one week. It took years for melee to evolve it's ATs".. Well maybe because at first, nobody knew what to look for? In Brawl a lot of people has had it for a few weeks now, and trying to explicitly find new techniques. There's no guarantee new ATs will ever be found.

Myself I'm a casual player but with a competitive mindset (I don't like playing with items on Fed uped stages). When I read some posts around here I'm ashamed ot calling myself casual <<

I have to agree with what you've said man. Also, what the other guy was saying about the intensity of melee was because of it's speed. I realy enjoyed me and my friends matches as we learned more techniques. Matches became more intense and ended faster. At the same time we became more competitive.

 

[SmashBro99]

You all need to quit your crying and just stay on Melee.

Hide behind your wavedashing. :O

 

[Yuna]

I have to agree with what you've said man. Also, what the other guy was saying about the intensity of melee was because of it's speed. I realy enjoyed me and my friends matches as we learned more techniques. Matches became more intense and ended faster. At the same time we became more competitive.

Speed does not automatically mean intesity or skill.

Virtua Fighter 4 is, like, a pretty slow 3D fighter. Nevertheless, it's also hailed as one of the deepest fighters out there.

 

[Ghettoman]

Speed does not automatically mean intesity or skill.

Virtua Fighter 4 is, like, a pretty slow 3D fighter. Nevertheless, it's also hailed as one of the deepest fighters out there.

True, but notice i said "as we learned more techniques". Those other techniques such as L canceling and such added to the intesity as well. All competitive players know how a missed L cancel could easily turn the tide on a match. I would still be happy if Brawl were to become as deep as Virtual fighter. It would possibly make it better than V4