Is Smash a Fighting Game?

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

I decided to post this in the Brawl section as this includes all of smash, and it's the most recent game out right now. To some this may sound like a stupid question, but in reality, it's an important dispute among gamers in and out of the Smash scene. You may think that Smash is a fighting game because there are characters on screen fighting, and there is a goal to win by defeating other opponents. However, there might be much more to a fighting game, and specific things that make up a fighting game. To get this out of the way, at some points this may be an argument of semantics, but so be it.

--A fighting game is a type of video game where the player controls an on-screen character and engages in close combat with an opponent. These characters tend to be of equal power and fight matches consisting of several rounds, which take place in an arena.

This definition may be wrong, or it may be right, but Smash does easily fit this definition at least. A stand point often taken is the idea that smash is by literal definition a fighting game, but rather shouldn't be classified as a "true" fighting game as it's not traditional. Examples could be life bars, etc. I want to hear your opinions on whether or not Smash is a fighting game, or at least should be considered as such.

 

[IceArrow]

"These characters tend to be of equal power"

Lol, not true in any fighting game. But ya Smash is a fighter.

 

[Substitution]

"These characters tend to be of equal power"

Lol, not true in any fighting game. But ya Smash is a fighter.

Here's what I say.
The only way for a game to be "balanced" is if all the characters were the exact same.

 

[Gatlin]

Yes, it is. Fighting games aren't required to follow the same typical formula over and over again in order to be classified as such. For example, Forza, Need for Speed, and Mario Kart, though entirely different on almost all accounts, are all racing games. There is a start and finish line, and competitive racing to all franchises, even whilst working and appearing differently to each other. "Typical" fighter or not, it just ends up as people who don't like Smash ignorantly stereotyping all fighting games as being the same in the end. Though, that also most likely comes from people who don't even like Nintendo games to begin with, as well.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Yes, it is. Fighting games aren't required to follow the same typical formula over and over again in order to be classified as such. For example, Forza, Need for Speed, and Mario Kart, though entirely different on almost all accounts, are all racing games. There is a start and finish line, and competitive racing to all franchises, even whilst working and appearing differently to each other. "Typical" fighter or not, it just ends up as people who don't like Smash ignorantly stereotyping all fighting games as being the same in the end. Though, that also most likely comes from people who don't even like Nintendo games to begin with, as well.

Very well. I fully agree but, would you say it's a traditional fighting game?

 

[-LzR-]

When you compare Street Fighter, Tekken, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat and whatever anime fighting game with each other, you'll see they are very different. Smash isn't really that much different when added to that bunch so by that definition it should count as a fighting game.

 

[KRBAY]

lol obviously

Smash is unique. I wouldn't call it traditional due to roaming stages freely and no health bars (unless you're playing Stamina Mode), but otherwise, it's a normal fighting game.

 

[-LzR-]

One thing to point out is that other fighters also have ring outs than Smash so that isn't unique either.

 

[666blaziken]

And it has the light-medium-heavy system in terms of jabs being light moves, tilts being medium powered moves, and smash attacks being heavy moves. There are also shields for blocking, and specials for being like hadoaken from Ryu.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Smash is a fighting game. Brawl is not.

Please refrain from starting a flame war...... Please.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Straight and concise to the point. Super Smash Bros. is a fighting game.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Well, aren't you impressionable? These guys are serious fighting game enthusiasts and know them more intimately than you can shrug off. Also, the video covers the entire Smash series, not just Brawl.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

He is a causal who does not know that Brawl is total garbage. Brawl should be ranked one of the worst fighting games next to Shaq-Fu.

Troll or epic fail. I can understand if you think it's not a fighting game even though I disagree, but really now. Get your ego out of your mind and open your eyes to the wonderful world of opinions. While you can have an opinion about other people's opinions, there's a difference between disagreeing, and mudslinging.

 

[666blaziken]

He is a causal who does not know that Brawl is total garbage. Brawl should be ranked one of the worst fighting games next to Shaq-Fu.

You didn't watch the whole video did you. Because if you did, a you would know that they clearly acknowledge brawl's flaws, and even then, they consider it a fighting game.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If anyone wanted to classify brawl as a non-fighting game my question then is what sort of gameplay does it come under? You could attempt to say a party game only, but then it still crosses over into the realm of fighting way too much to be solely a party game. It simply becomes a hybrid. Anyway, I am supporting its classification as a fighting game. I believe this should be one of its classifying labels along with a finer structure. In modern terms, I would say its a fighting game platformer. Along other classifications such as a 2d vs 3d, etc.

 

[Gatlin]

Smash is a fighting game. Brawl is not.

And yet Brawl still is Smash, so technically you just called Brawl a fighting game without realizing.
Also, please drop the over-exaggerated anti-Brawl comments. It's fine to say you don't like it; but it's not necessary to go over the top with negativity to get your point across.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

How is everyone still playing this trash? melee >>>>>>> project brawl > brawl

I agree that Melee is the best, but please refrain from this. It's really getting annoying.

 

[666blaziken]

Troll or epic fail. I can understand if you think it's not a fighting game even though I disagree, but really now. Get your ego out of your mind and open your eyes to the wonderful world of opinions. While you can have an opinion about other people's opinions, there's a difference between disagreeing, and mudslinging.

He is a troll. He posted bad comments in other threads too. I think he got banned though, his comments no longer exist.

 

[andzrej]

And yet Brawl still is Smash, so technically you just called Brawl a fighting game without realizing.
Also, please drop the over-exaggerated anti-Brawl comments. It's fine to say you don't like it; but it's not necessary to go over the top with negativity to get your point across.

Just because they share the same franchise and certain mechanics doesn't necessarily mean they are both fighting games.
While Brawl shares elements from melee (matchups, combo creativity, no lifebar, etc) it also has
a) dismissal from it's own creators as a fighting game,
b) tripping, and
c) lack of hitstun for combos.
Equating melee and brawl both as fighters simply due to the same name & franchise is a false argument.

According to Roger Caillois in Man, Play and Games, the games we play are divided into Agon, Alea, Mimicry, & Ilex.
Smash would be grouped under Agon, competitive games.
Caillois argues that for a game to be Agon, it must test certain skills, and it must be on a completely level playing field.

Brawl meets the first requirement, the skills being spacing, planning, etc. However, with elements like tripping, it does not meet the second requirement.
That falls under Alea, or chance. While chance games can be fun, Alea has no business being mixed with Agon, at least not in competitive scenes.

I -personally- cannot classify a game that includes chance into its core mechanics as a fighter.
Melee does not have such chance, save for Peach's turnips and Luigi's rest. Both of which are not integral mechanics of melee, and both of which arguably have a low enough rate that they are not really falling into Alea. They actually can be an argument for Matchups, which are important for the classification of games as fighters.

I can prepare for Peach's turnips & Luigi's misfire. I cannot prepare for a random chance of tripping and giving my opponent the upper hand for no reason.

I'm not saying Brawl is a bad game. I play it, along with Super Smash Bros., Melee, and Project M.
I just cannot classify it as a fighter alongside with Melee.

 

[666blaziken]

Just because they share the same franchise and certain mechanics doesn't necessarily mean they are both fighting games.
While Brawl shares elements from melee (matchups, combo creativity, no lifebar, etc) it also has
a) dismissal from it's own creators as a fighting game,
b) tripping, and
c) lack of hitstun for combos.
Equating melee and brawl both as fighters simply due to the same name & franchise is a false argument.

According to Roger Caillois in Man, Play and Games, the games we play are divided into Agon, Alea, Mimicry, & Ilex.
Smash would be grouped under Agon, competitive games.
Caillois argues that for a game to be Agon, it must test certain skills, and it must be on a completely level playing field.

Brawl meets the first requirement, the skills being spacing, planning, etc. However, with elements like tripping, it does not meet the second requirement.
That falls under Alea, or chance. While chance games can be fun, Alea has no business being mixed with Agon, at least not in competitive scenes.

I -personally- cannot classify a game that includes chance into its core mechanics as a fighter.
Melee does not have such chance, save for Peach's turnips and Luigi's rest. Both of which are not integral mechanics of melee, and both of which arguably have a low enough rate that they are not really falling into Alea. They actually can be an argument for Matchups, which are important for the classification of games as fighters.

I can prepare for Peach's turnips & Luigi's misfire. I cannot prepare for a random chance of tripping and giving my opponent the upper hand for no reason.

I'm not saying Brawl is a bad game. I play it, along with Super Smash Bros., Melee, and Project M.
I just cannot classify it as a fighter alongside with Melee.

Screw tripping, I hate that mechanic. But take that out, and brawl is a fighting game with the remove tripping code. Brawl could be a lot better, but I don't think sakurai dismissed it as a fighting game. He just wanted it to be played differently than melee. He removed l canceling and wavedashing to give it a different meta game than melee. But he didn't realize that the game would be a campfest, and he didn't realize that mk would be broken. He is trying to fix that with smash 4, and I think he will. Kid Icarus uprising was a well balanced game in multiplayer and if he runs the game based on that, he might prevail.

 

[andzrej]

Screw tripping, I hate that mechanic. But take that out, and brawl is a fighting game with the remove tripping code. Brawl could be a lot better, but I don't think sakurai dismissed it as a fighting game. He just wanted it to be played differently than melee. He removed l canceling and wavedashing to give it a different meta game than melee. But he didn't realize that the game would be a campfest, and he didn't realize that mk would be broken. He is trying to fix that with smash 4, and I think he will. Kid Icarus uprising was a well balanced game in multiplayer and if he runs the game based on that, he might prevail.

It still can't be classified as a true fighter if the game itself has to be modified in order to be fully competitive.
Why? Because it's a slippery slope. "Oh, we modded it to remove tripping." "Well why don't we remove x?" "Let's remove Y also, I mean if we removed tripping.." "Squabble".
We are trying oh so very hard to make a game, designed at its core to be casual, into a fighting game. And it's not, imo.

 

[Toomnyusernae]

TL;DR SMASH IS ITS OWN GENRE THAT DOESN'T ADD TO DEVELOPMENT OF FUTURE FIGHTING GAMES

Hi, I'm a non Smash player but I joined to discuss this topic because opinions still seem readily divided. I flip-flop between calling it a fighting game and not ACCEPTING it as a fighting game. I feel that all Smash games (Brawl included) are fighting games in substance. Some people cite Sakurai's intent on tripping a factor that makes it a non-fighting game due to chance. I disagree because although there is that factor, the substance of the game still remains in fighting the other player(s). Samurai Shodown had items (health and bombs) drop into the fight periodically altering the gameplay but the fighting was the core to the game.

When I consider how Smash ISN'T a fighting game, I think of the design. I'm not even talking about the fighting mechanics necessarily, I'm talking about subjective things such as character design. Now, there isn't a rule saying iconic characters such as Mario can't fight. But to me, it just adds less credibility. I grew up in the 90's when fighting game ripoffs appeared left right and center and the character designs were essential in enticing players to play the game. It's probably one of the implied reasons some FGC members call Smash 'kiddie'. Knowing that a person plays games can be considered immature and childish. Knowing that a person plays so competitively with characters such as Peach Bowser Luigi etc. seems even more childish but I digress (who cares what others think, games are fun).

I can't help but mention that fighting games generally didn't grace Nintendo's later consoles. A lot of the evolution of fighting games developed in the arcades and on the likes of PlayStation where fighting game franchises like King of Fighters drifted to. Honestly, when was the last time Street Fighter showed up on Nintendo other than the recent appearance in Wii U Smash and Tatsunoko vs Capcom?

It's also noteworthy to notice Nintendo's direction with this 'new sub-genre' of fighting game. It really is its own creature with a monopoly on the genre. You can't think of another party game without thinking of Smash just like a lot of fighting game players can't think of fighting games without Capcom. However, because this genre isn't evolving (ie other companies competing) it means that Nintendo players with Nintendo loyalties to the characters will be segregated. I don't see it adding to the existing lineup of other fighting games which ostracizes itself. PC, PS4 are currently in the run with multiple fighting games (Dead or Alive, Killer Instinct, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Street Fighter) and I worry that the Smash series will face that snobbish elitism from the FGC because the Smash community must continue keeping the series alive as a minority fighting game with an overwhelming majority of players lol.

 

[Crazyben133]

of course it is you battle on a stage with your favorite character and fight to the death

 

[TheJolteon]

Sakurai himself said this was a fighting game

 

[Thundertron]

NAW, OF COURSE IT'S A FIGHTING GAME!! IT JUST HAS 4 PLAYERS INSTEAD OF 2!!!!

 

[Thundertron]

Sakurai himself said this was a fighting game

Good Answer!!!

 

[Jink8]

Smash is definitely a fighting game.

 

[Green Stache X]

It's not necessarily a traditional "reduce opponent's health to 0" fighting game.

But it's still a fighting game.

 

[TyDye]

Smash is more of a freestyle sandbox fighter. Very different from most fighters but based off similar ideas / mechanics.

1- Instead of rounds you have stocks.
2- Instead of life you have % and essentially die from "ring outs."

There are no preset combos meaning you can make up your own as you go. Which allows for more creativity and different play styles. It is a fighting game and I know this is a bias, but it is the BEST fighting game.

To the point of Brawl. I think it is the worst of the Smash games, but it is a fighting game none the less. Even other fighters are at a equal or slower pace than Brawl excluding Smash knock offs. "PlayStation All-Stars" "Rivals of Ather" which are good games as well.