Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[_clinton]

What do both have...?

I suppose the element of surprise, but then again so does every other underrated character... however Sonic has more opprtunity for this but forget about it. Mindgames; both have that. Coincidentally it's in the B-Buttons. A pretty good defensive game. A fetish for Steak. Some BA taunts.

Everyone knows steak is the best food out there...

Let's face it, Ness has some pretty bad matchups. At least when our worst matchup is Marth, a grab doesn't get followed-up into some very deep s***.

Marth's best thing about his grab release is the follow up to Dsmash...everything else is avoidable...so the only thing Marth has is a chance at an actually KO option that won't be followed up with tons of cool down time if he misses...

Now just how unwinnable are Ness' matchups is not really known
to me, but I have a pretty good idea that we have it better or at worst the same.

The worse we have is probably 7-3 if even that (I don't think so) with maybe 2-3 characters

Bad design, poor boy can't be off the stage for too much or too long... which is probably why matchups like Meta Knight must be a real nightmare when he outclasses you in most everything.

Actually Ness can annoy MK off stage as well...and as far as air games go...it isn't that much of a difference really...

The idea of eating the thunder isn't going to fit in MK's book that much due to how slow he is overall as well IMO...

I'll admit that Sonic isn't too much better off as a MK "counter", it isn't -1 stock right off the bat (no pun intended). It's not too hard to grab Ness whereas getting a grab on this hedgehog is less frequent either, and even if you don't go for the CG Ness still has more GR frames for more opportunity for punishment out of a break.

If you don't have a KO move that is under 10 frames you overall really don't have much as far as grab release stuff goes on Ness...

Quote of the day.

From now on all weaknesses mentioned in this thread must be referred to as "Learning Curves" I expect full participation people.

Ok let me put it this way then...10 extra frames of ground grab release along with a certain % of his recovery being gimpable are not much of an issue IMO...

Care to elaborate? What tools does he have? How do you use them? How do they help?

PSI Magnet lets him stall to a point...
Ness' air game being good is another reason why he can be hard to gimp...
The fact that his 2nd jump alone gives him more horizontal range than a good % of the other recoveries in this game...
His air mobility being good as well is another reason...

The fact that trying to gimp him could cost you your own stock when you wanted to take his if you screw up is another reason...keep in mind that Ness really doesn't need that much time to launch PKT2...it is about the same amount of time that Fox and Falco need to use their up specials...only Fox and Falco when going to having use their up specials don't have a 40% kill move that has inv. frames backing them up...

Speaking of more info on range...PKT2 has about the same range that Fire Fox has (in fact it might just appear to be less because of the simple fact that Fox happens to have more mass than Ness does...because they are very close to each other)...of course if it is cut then you are working with Falco's range...of course if it is cut then that means you hit something...
Oh and the range is only like that if you have to fly in a complete line...if you launch at an angle Ness actually does beat Fire Fox by a hair or so...

Oh and as far as that goes as well...Ness' recovery isn't written in stone for how you are going to want to use it compared to a good % of the cast as well...so there is a bit of being unpredictable with how you can use it...

A good 40% or so of the reason Wario is hard to grab is his Bite. Ness and Lucas aren't easy to grab but a god opponent who's really going for it and has a character with a good grab is going to be able to land several grabs in a game. I don't think it's fair to say Ness isn't going to get grabbed at least a couple of times a game.

Fun fact...if Wario gets grabbed and it is an air release...he might be just flat out screwed...If Ness or Lucas get grabbed they have an easier chance of getting out with just one hit extra in a ground break (as long as it is under 10 frames...of course with air releases it isn't that bad for Ness...because his air release is actually good...with Lucas it might be a different story)

Oh and both Ness and Lucas each have pretty good anti grab material to work with as well (not on the level of Bite...but still pretty good)
Lucas' Nair for one thing and the fact that it auto cancels makes him IMO somewhat harder to grab than Ness...Ness' retreating Fair pretty much can make him a ***** to approach as well...

Which are?

Set ups for Ness' kill moves...well...

Pillar spike/Caz Combo is the main one I like to point out 1st
The fact that all of Ness' air moves pretty much just follow into each other naturally (which really has shown with Brawl + as well)
Dtilt set ups and why they are safe on shields is another thing...BTW it goes into either a bat or a grab if you really want it...
The fact that his jab can cancel into his grab pretty well is another thing...
The fact that PK Thunder is a natural set up to a kill move is just plain fun...
PK Flash has a very fast cool down time (so the thing that makes it a nice edge guarding option isn't the fact that it kills at 60%...its the fact that it can kill at 60%

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Ok let me put it this way then...10 extra frames of ground grab release along with a certain % of his recovery being gimpable are not much of an issue IMO..

I agree they are often overhyped. However they are still undeniable learning curves in Ness as a character and should definately not go overlooked in a discussion of his strengths and learning curves. They are just as much a part of Ness as anything else.

The fact that trying to gimp him could cost you your own stock when you wanted to take his if you screw up is another reason...keep in mind that Ness really doesn't need that much time to launch PKT2...it is about the same amount of time that Fox and Falco need to use their up specials...only Fox and Falco when going to having use their up specials don't have a 40% kill move that has inv. frames backing them up...

And it is generally agreed that Fox and Falco's Up Specials are really easy to hit out of the startup and due to the little "countdown" before they get moving the opponent gets a lovely little window of time to see it coming and it's real easy to time the edgehog. Ness' jump and mobility is pretty awesome and you can often recover with this alone but if you get hit back out and your jump is gone so you're forced to Up B towards the ledge you're generally in a very bad position and likely to die most of the time. :/

Set ups for Ness' kill moves...well...

Pillar spike/Caz Combo is the main one I like to point out 1st

Remember Sonic boards are unlikely to know a great deal of Ness' acronyms and terminology. Try to explain things that might not be common knowledge or at least link to a threa don the Ness Boards which can do so.

The fact that all of Ness' air moves pretty much just follow into each other naturally (which really has shown with Brawl + as well)

Doesn't really count as a setup but whatever...
.

The fact that PK Thunder is a natural set up to a kill move is just plain fun...

Could you explain further on this?

PK Flash has a very fast cool down time (so the thing that makes it a nice edge guarding option isn't the fact that it kills at 60%...its the fact that it can kill at 60%

Hehe it's a 1 in a million shot sure but it's also a safe 1 in a million shot if you play your cards right so why not go for it now and again?

 

[Kinzer]

DTilt is quite easily outranged though...

Everything else seems spot-on... except with how 10 extra frames leads into more gay... like I know for one thing, Sonic can at least guarantee an FTilt on Ness after a ground-break... dunno what else could go wrong with other characters but it sure would help if Ness had a faster ground-break animation.

Or that MK doesn't have to eat the head of PKT, his broken range will take care of anything.

 

[Tenki]

the cazcombo is awesome, haha.

how often does the position for that get set up anyway?

 

[_clinton]

I agree they are often overhyped. However they are still undeniable learning curves in Ness as a character and should definately not go overlooked in a discussion of his strengths and learning curves. They are just as much a part of Ness as anything else.

I never said you shouldn't consider them (note how I was talking about them even at the start)
I just said they don't bug me that much...

And it is generally agreed that Fox and Falco's Up Specials are really easy to hit out of the startup and due to the little "countdown" before they get moving the opponent gets a lovely little window of time to see it coming and it's real easy to time the edgehog. Ness' jump and mobility is pretty awesome and you can often recover with this alone but if you get hit back out and your jump is gone so you're forced to Up B towards the ledge you're generally in a very bad position and likely to die most of the time. :/

Its just that if you try to hit Fox and Falco out of the edge hog...and you mess up...nothing really bad happens...if you screw up with Ness...you get hit by pain...also because you didn't see the post...remember Ness' PKT2 has special inv. frames on it

The tail can also protect you better than what Fox or Falco has for a start up as well...
Oh and again on the fact that Ness' recovery isn't set in stone for how you use it...

Remember Sonic boards are unlikely to know a great deal of Ness' acronyms and terminology. Try to explain things that might not be common knowledge or at least link to a threa don the Ness Boards which can do so.

Ok...sorry...

Caz Combo/Pillar Spike...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5Wcyi-Bjow&feature=related

Doesn't really count as a setup but whatever...

A full hopped Fair pretty much will lead into an Uair...oh and stuff like this can happen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKLT1Oj_jEI

Again...they aren't true combos...but still

Could you explain further on this?

PK Thunder's tail is the star of the show with Ness' PKT2...the tail is the main reason why it is such a great move...from shield eating to just being a small % of Ness' actually good gimp game...
Oh and if you aren't careful around PKT you die at around less than 40% from it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdnB8YM2MsE

Hehe it's a 1 in a million shot sure but it's also a safe 1 in a million shot if you play your cards right so why not go for it now and again?

PK Flash has a very fast cool down time from when you let it go...it is a very good way to make someone screw up and fall into something else you have out...

the cazcombo is awesome, haha.
how often does the position for that get set up anyway?

When ever someone has to recover low or at a flat angle on the stage and somewhat close to the stage IMO is the best time to throw it out (because you can throw it out to a point w/o having to jump and throw it)?

But overall you will want your 2nd jump to throw it out with...because the air PK Fire does have IASA frames to work with when it comes to the lag...which is why you can have lagless aerial PK Fire landings

Oh and as far as match ups go...Caz Combo is pretty worthless on Sonic in case you wanted to know (just remember to throw out your spring ASAP if you get hit by PK Fire)

Oh and in case you are looking for a good Ness highlight video that has the best music from Mother 3 in it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufR3Uu1TWJ0)

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vRO_gEbnAg

Vicegrip is very good with his Ness...oh and Link can do the Wess Dance as well ^_^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0t5KwF2s6w&NR=1

 

[AdmantNESS]

This is the cazcombo/ pillar spike as being used on Gimpyfish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULlJiVc2E7A

As for PKT being a natural set-up: PK Thunder is composed of a head and tail. Atk the head, and the whole thing dies. The tail is invincible though and someone that gets hit by it will be stunned.

If you can set it up, you can stun someone with the tail since its so long and redirect the head back to Ness leading into a Pk Thunder 2 KO. But its situational EDIT: and involves mindgames, sometimes having to predict where someone will fall and really good control of PK Thunder.

This video showcase for example has it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ss6YP6cTfg&feature=related

 

[Xiahou Dun]

The tail can also protect you better than what Fox or Falco has for a start up as well...
Oh and again on the fact that Ness' recovery isn't set in stone for how you use it...

The Tail is nice but the head is very very bad. It evens itself out. And it's just as set in stone as Fox and Falco's are.

I'm not saying Ness is doomed everytime he leaves the stage. I've played too much Ivysaur and Link to judge a bad recovery as a hopeless recovery. Ness's recovery however is still not a good one and this is very possible to work around but the process of working around it makes it a very relevant learning curve for Ness. I didn't ignore or not notice the comment about the inv frames I just didn't bother to quote it because I didn't disagree or feel the need to comment on it. If I left something out from your post and didn't specifically reply it generally means I agree with it.

Caz Combo/Pillar Spike...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5Wcyi-Bjow&feature=related

Hehe that's pretty sweet. I always found the Down Air easier to hit then the PK Fire myself. I hate that trajectory...

A full hopped Fair pretty much will lead into an Uair...oh and stuff like this can happen...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKLT1Oj_jEI

Again...they aren't true combos...but still

PK Thunder's tail is the star of the show with Ness' PKT2...the tail is the main reason why it is such a great move...from shield eating to just being a small % of Ness' actually good gimp game...

Just how well does it eat shields?

Oh and as far as match ups go...Caz Combo is pretty worthless on Sonic in case you wanted to know (just remember to throw out your spring ASAP if you get hit by PK Fire)

Worthless on Sonic maybe but that's not what matters so much in this thread. :/

 

[_clinton]

The Tail is nice but the head is very very bad. It evens itself out. And it's just as set in stone as Fox and Falco's are.

Um...no it isn't...Fox and Falco when they throw out their Up special they set an auto time for where they will start to fly from...Ness and Lucas don't do that...you can adjust the launch time app. as long as you use PKT right...

The fact that they have more to work with as well is also an issue when it comes to how their 2nd jumps work (At least with Falco...Fox beats Ness in recovery...what with his Fair pretty much making his 2nd jump 2x more effective at grabbing vertical and horizontal distance...and the fact that he does have the best stall move in the game overall compared to what actual vertical range you lose per use of it...oh and the fact that Fire Fox has great can't be cut range in case you do need to use it is another +)

I'm not saying Ness is doomed everytime he leaves the stage. I've played too much Ivysaur and Link to judge a bad recovery as a hopeless recovery. Ness's recovery however is still not a good one and this is very possible to work around but the process of working around it makes it a very relevant learning curve for Ness.

I'd say Ness' recovery is a 3/5 IMO...but whatever...in fact I like it more than 50% of the other characters recoveries in this game...but whatever...

I didn't ignore or not notice the comment about the inv frames I just didn't bother to quote it because I didn't disagree or feel the need to comment on it. If I left something out from your post and didn't specifically reply it generally means I agree with it.

Ok...sorry

Just how well does it eat shields?

Enough to the point where if you are going to break someone's shield with Ness...PK Thunder is going to be a large part of you doing that...from the simple fact that the many mindgames you can pull with PKT may have a hand in doing it...to just ripping it off itself...

It is very easy to rip apart a shield with Ness if your foe isn't careful...PKT2 by itself rips off like 45% or so of a shield's full energy...and depending on how you use it...you can for the most part avoid being punished...

Still to answer the question...if you stab a shield with PKT's the start of the tail...chances are you are going to end up hitting them a little bit with the end of it before the move breaks through fully...it does a pretty nice job at eating a shield bit by bit...not enough to actually break it though if that is what you might be looking for...although if you did stab a shield with the tail and then curved it back to yourself and tried a hit with PKT2...you would do some pretty nice damage to the shield...

Worthless on Sonic maybe but that's not what matters so much in this thread. :/

I was just letting people know in case they didn't know...

 

[Crystanium]

Edit: Good stuff on the Samus discussion guys

Or lack thereof. There wasn't a discussion at all.

Mindgames; both have that.

lol Words that will come back to haunt you.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Or lack thereof. There wasn't a discussion at all.

We argued about jabs >_>
I guess that counts?

I need to ask you a few things can I send you a pm later?

 

[Crystanium]

We argued about jabs >_>
I guess that counts?

That barely counts for anything.

I need to ask you a few things can I send you a pm later?

Knock yourself out. My box isn't going to get full anytime soon. I can hold a thousand messages.

 

[Jupz]

Hmm the cazcombo is pretty sweet I've only landed about 4 or 5 overall and 2 were in one match
It was against a bowser (such a big target)

 

[Chis]

That barely counts for anything.

There's only so much time, I can't wait forever :/

Meh

 

[Kinzer]

lol Words that will come back to haunt you.

Why/How is that so?

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Or lack thereof. There wasn't a discussion at all.

Eh i wasn't fully happy with the amount of discussion on Samus but you hardly have any right to get all snooty about it do you sir?

 

[Crystanium]

Why/How is that so?

You brought up mind-games. There was no point in bringing that up, remember? No practicality. Only theory.

Eh i wasn't fully happy with the amount of discussion on Samus but you hardly have any right to get all snooty about it do you sir?

If I'm getting "snooty," it's only about the fact that Chis said something along the lines of, "Thanks for the discussion, people who main Samus." You can't honestly say that, seeing there wasn't much, if at all any discussion. I really couldn't care less. I just thought it was some interesting choice of words.

 

[Chis]

If I'm getting "snooty," it's only about the fact that Chis said something along the lines of, "Thanks for the discussion, people who main Samus." You can't honestly say that, seeing there wasn't much, if at all any discussion. I really couldn't care less. I just thought it was some interesting choice of words.

Alright, next time I wont express my gratitude to other human beings.

 

[Uffe]

@ Kinzer: Ness has a better aerial game. His fair is pretty much disjointed, his nair leads into "comboing", his dair is great for just about anything, his bair is nothing like Zelda's and can be used just as frequently like Sonic's. Trust me, I've used that to the point it was worn down but still knocked opponent back pretty far, that's all sweet spotted, too. Ness' uair is pretty brutal, too. Ness actually has tons of KOing attacks. His f-throw can kill at around +100 percent and that's not 200, by the way, depending on how close the blast zones are. An example would be me fighting Irsic last night and f-threw him off Battlefield, killing him.

Also, Ness has three types of dair methods. Pillar spiking, aka Cazcombo. However, that could be totally worthless on Sonic. He's also got his regular dair spike and then my favorite, rising dair. Of course dairing Sonic is tricky, but not impossible. As for Sonic having mindgames, I could just mute the television so I don't have to hear the sound of Sonic's spin. Personally, he's not as threatning as many opponents. The only thing he's got going for him is his speed. You can bring mindgames into play, but in reality, I can see through that because I know that Sonic is going to feint at times. It's actually quite predictable. Again, it's his speed that makes it work. Without it he'd be garbage.

Ness may have bad match ups, but nothing impossible to deal with. Also, getting knocked off the stage isn't scary. It's not impossible to counter an attack or airdodge when you're off the stage. And since Ness would still have his second jump, he has a bigger chance of making it than a character like Link or Olimar. Another thing, you guys can edgehog all you want. It's not like I aim for the edge but rather the top of the stage. But really, this has nothing to do with characters like Marth or MK. This is about Sonic vs Ness and at this point, and right now, his match ups don't matter other than the one we're talking about.

As for Sonic having a better offensive game, again, it's his speed that helps him out. Also, again about Ness' recovery. I've never been gimped by a Sonic main. Ever. When it had attempted, I'd either get hit by the spring, giving me another chance to return, it'd just miss or Sonic would get Jibaku'd right in the face. That's not sugar coating it, either. I'll take fact over opinion, thanks. The only thing that makes Sonic tough for me is that he's quicker, nothing more.

 

[MalcolmM]

This thread is about sonic and ness as characters....not sonic VS ness.

On another note...

I don't believe u've played any sonics of value so why would we even listen to you?

Ty for posting about the wrong thing and Ty for posting false information (F-throw kills @ 100).

I, Malcolm, am being very rude in this post because I was forced to read a wall of text with nothing but misconceptions, stories of bad opponent DI and inability to play any players of worth in the brawl.

 

[Excellence]

This thread is about sonic and ness as characters....not sonic VS ness.

On another note...

I don't believe u've played any sonics of value so why would we even listen to you?

Ty for posting about the wrong thing and Ty for posting false information (F-throw kills @ 100).

I, Malcolm, am being very rude in this post because I was forced to read a wall of text with nothing but misconceptions, stories of bad opponent DI and inability to play any players of worth in the brawl.

Aren't you currently the best Sonic in the business?

 

[Kinzer]

Hahaha... oh boy, this isn't turning out as well as I had hoped...

Dryn, I believe you're (somewhat) right about mindgames being inapplicable, and I'd rather not argue about why or why not because I am lazy and I don't feel like trying to win such a pointless argument that will have next to no benefit to me.

As or the mute button... is that always going to be available? I didn't even think the mindgames where in the spins, but rather the movement, but again this is pointless to argue over.Malcolm is also showing his tough love.

And for the post above me... we believe he is the best... as for being able to dispute whether he is or isn't... we won't know for a good while and for reasons I'm too lazy to mention.

 

[Tenki]

inserts a we should have started with the bottom first here

 

[Chis]

Tenki, stop repeating the same thing again and again, it's not happening.

 

[Uffe]

This thread is about sonic and ness as characters....not sonic VS ness.

On another note...

I don't believe u've played any sonics of value so why would we even listen to you?

Ty for posting about the wrong thing and Ty for posting false information (F-throw kills @ 100).

I, Malcolm, am being very rude in this post because I was forced to read a wall of text with nothing but misconceptions, stories of bad opponent DI and inability to play any players of worth in the brawl.

You don't think I've played any Sonic's worth value? Wow. Nice assumption. Anyway, this might as well be a match up thread if we're going to bring up MK and Marth being able to **** Ness while he's off the stage or from a grab release. And yes, near the edge, depending on certain stages, Ness' f-throw can kill. The reason I didn't really bring up any of Sonic's value is because Kinzer already did that for us.

Be rude all you want. I'd expect that from you guys. Also, these aren't just stories. These are my actual experiences through matches. You think I play terrible opponents? That's hilarious. You want to tell me I'm making false claims, you'd better not assume yourself. Later.

 

[Chis]

Also, Ness has three types of dair methods. Pillar spiking, aka Cazcombo. However, that could be totally worthless on Sonic. He's also got his regular dair spike and then my favorite, rising dair. Of course dairing Sonic is tricky, but not impossible. As for Sonic having mindgames, I could just mute the television so I don't have to hear the sound of Sonic's spin. Personally, he's not as threatning as many opponents. The only thing he's got going for him is his speed. You can bring mindgames into play, but in reality, I can see through that because I know that Sonic is going to feint at times. It's actually quite predictable. Again, it's his speed that makes it work. Without it he'd be garbage.

As for Sonic having a better offensive game, again, it's his speed that helps him out. Also, again about Ness' recovery. I've never been gimped by a Sonic main. Ever. When it had attempted, I'd either get hit by the spring, giving me another chance to return, it'd just miss or Sonic would get Jibaku'd right in the face. That's not sugar coating it, either. I'll take fact over opinion, thanks. The only thing that makes Sonic tough for me is that he's quicker, nothing more.

Yeah, I see where Malcolm is coming from...

 

[Uffe]

Okay. Go ahead and say what you want and why Sonic > Ness any day. The thing is, you guys seem insecure about how good your character actually is. Another thing is that I'm pretty sure you'll say that Sonic > all low tier anyway. It all actually seems pointless to even bother discussing this. I mean there's really no point for someone to say anything anyway because so far all I've come across were things like, "Well, sorry to say it, but our main deserves to be placed higher above your main because _______."

Yeah, I get it. This isn't a match up discussion thread, but that discussion is bound to happen. Especially when it comes to talking about why a certain character should be above another. Give me a list of your pros and cons and I'll do the same.

 

[_clinton]

We should have talked about Falcon 1st and why I like Falcon more than Sonic...

Okay. Go ahead and say what you want and why Sonic > Ness any day. The thing is, you guys seem insecure about how good your character actually is. Another thing is that I'm pretty sure you'll say that Sonic > all low tier anyway. It all actually seems pointless to even bother discussing this. I mean there's really no point for someone to say anything anyway because so far all I've come across were things like, "Well, sorry to say it, but our main deserves to be placed higher above your main because _______."

Yeah, I get it. This isn't a match up discussion thread, but that discussion is bound to happen. Especially when it comes to talking about why a certain character should be above another. Give me a list of your pros and cons and I'll do the same.

I don't have any issue with a metagame discussion thread...which is what this is...I don't see it as any form of hostility at all...

Hell...we might as well do one for Ness...they seem a lot better than the tired old single match up discussion...

 

[Tenki]

Someone already mentioned earlier how one of the characters (either Samus or Ness - I think Ness) is, like Sonic in the sense that their current placement is admittedly (like, from SBR members or something) way too low. How awkward would it be to be both arguing over say, 7th/8th from the bottom when both characters could possible be (excuse the madeup numbers) 12th/13th from the bottom, lol.

 

[MalcolmM]

I assume because I can. I've played Jtails and Ref in tourney and beaten them both 2-0....I also dabble in ness. The character is something I am VERY familiar with. U on the other hand have played who? Anyone you killed with NESS FORWARD THROW @ 100% IS A BAD PLAYER. There is no exception to this rule. If you have played alot of sonics and never been gimped then you are playing BAD PLAYERS. If you were playing good players and never getting gimped you would be a big-name player by now with tons of tourney results. You are not. This is a fact. High tier characters like Marth and Meta being ABLE to **** ness off-stage is a FACT. Now it is not GUARANTEED, but the possibility is undeniable. No one has tried to attack Ness or the people that play him. I do, however, attack ignorant statements and the people that make them.

I, Malcolm, do not make these statements for the entire sonic boards. I am sure they welcome the discussion and enjoy ur posts. I, personally, loved all of the other Ness main's posts. I just dont like when people post incorrect information and then fall back on the "ALL THE SONIC MAINS ARE ATTACKING ME" defense as if you have done nothing wrong. Once again, these statements do not represent the feelings of everyone in this thread.

 

[da K.I.D.]

but they represent mine to a degree...

also, I would really like to know by name what sonic players you have played that cant gimp you.

I would also like to state that I know that not only myself but others as well, and not just sonic players, have survived ness's f throw from the very edge of FD at 130%+.

I have never played ness and I dont claim to be an expert but I do pride myself on having more than a general knowledge of every character on the select screen.

I dont know how good he is in the spectrum but Ive played a dude named leet-0 who mains ness and I play a ton with xiivi who plays every character on the board better than about 70% of the people who play whatever character. So I do have some ness experience, and that being said i present my personal views.

Ness has a highly competant air game, and his dair is very good and ACs like nobodys business. he has decent moves on the ground as well but it seems like his game is lacking there, seeing as hes a small kid without much range and he has a pretty poor grab range.

His offstage game, even though it cna be worked around Id have to say that its not good. Its not bad in that ness can recover with his second jump, and that if you mistime the gimp on his up b you take a chance of dying at 80% from just about anywhere.

But while he has moves that cna kill, i can see ness having a good deal of trouble actually llanding the kill move, because at higher levels, people dont get spiked often, f smash is on the slower side, the aerials will most likely be staled and once the opponent is over 140, they know the ness is going for grabs anyway and will do what the can to stay on the out side of ness, so as not to get grabbed, and so they can survived even if they do get back thrown

i havent gotten to the bad things about sonic or a verdict on my part, but thats what i think so far. If I am incorrect in any respect I IMPLORE any ness main to correct me

 

[AdmantNESS]

About F-throw: It has a set-knock back that doesn't change. This can help ko on walk-off stages or stages with walk-off sections though in general, Ness has a bad grab range though made better by a dash or pivot-dash grab.

In my opinion, Ness can be summed up as a character based on aerials and throws while most of his ground moves help set up an aerial assault. He is an aerialist who operates the best when hes in the air.

His aerials are the bulk of his game mostly as he is limited on the ground. His 2nd jump has a property that allows him do an aerial as he is rising. Yoshi has something similar. They can be chained or follow up into into each other as this is where Ness does most of his damage.

Nair is quick and used as a get-off move. He can also use two of them in one short hop. If done close to the ground and it hits, he can link to a jab from there as soon as he touches the ground. Good for shaking off pikmin and can be used offensive and defensively. Can break combosand escape from juggles. Can also ko when dmg is high enough.

Dair, while having a laggy start-up, can knock someone in the air if they are on the ground. A powerful spike also. If done immediately from a short hop, its one of his ways to get someone into the air. If done off-stage, it slams em into the ground. If you read their tech or get-up, you can do it again. Has enormus hit stun.

Fair can be considered one of his best moves. Used for spacing, pressure, has disjointedness, its good at building dmg, though it be sheildgrabbed if not spaced correctly. Due to auto cancel properties, as soon as Ness lands he can use another fair if opponent is still stuck in stun from the first fair. Offense and defensive use.

Up-air has a bizarre hitbox. His whole body flips everytime he does it. Can be used quickly and ends quickly. Can trade hits with some other dairs. Strong

Back air: Another Ko move. Has a large sweet spot and strong priority. While it can be used to deal dmg, it can be saved for kos.

Jabs are fast enough to do what jabs are supposed to do which is to knock away. Same with F-tilt but knocks further.

Up-tilt is a quick move that protects him nicely from above. Can be used repeatly also to juggle fastfallers.

Down-tilt: a quick move that is easily shielded due to short range, but it can trip. Can nicely refresh moves like when used on Luigi's Mansion pillars.

Up-throw puts em in the air

Down-throw puts em in air though it depends on DI where they will be in relation to Ness.

F-throw has set-knockback and cant ko except on walk-offs, or near edge where blast zone is closer. Again, puts em in the air.

Back-throw can ko past the 120% range but it can depend on where Ness is in relation to edge.


Both Yoyos can be used to punish spotdoges, rolling, and someone gwtting too close. Can punished due to lag though. When charged, they stay out. If used by the ledge and the yoyo hangs off the ledge, it can stage spike as shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJHtfk8gK1U

The bat is situational, as it may be strong, it has wind-up. If you predict where someone will fall, this can be used. Also safe if you dtilt trip them. It is a reflector as it sends projectiles back with twice the speed, though with faster ones, you'll have to have the bat out in advance.

Dash attack I don't use much. It can be punished. Its not too bad though.

His special moves :

Pk Fire is laggy when used on the ground but you can surprise by doing a pivot PKF or do it the moment you start a full jump so Ness can do an 2nd jump right before he hits the ground and combine it with another Pk Fire or aerial or something else. It can also be layered and heavy weights have a harder time getting out of it. If used correctly off-stage, it can lead to a spike. From a Pk Fire he can land a grab before they DI out of it if quick enough. Can also start fairing or other aerials.

PSI Magnet has a slow start-up but all ending lag can be canceled right when a energy projectile hits. It can also stall in the air to throw off someone's timing or bait someone.

Pk Thunder is very versatile as the tail can harass recoveries and generally annoy people. If too predictable it can be shielded if the head hits the sheild or by an atk. Hitting with the tail involves knowing how to curve and turn the thing. If hit by the tail it stuns. Just need to be careful of Ness's vulnerability when using it.

Pk Thunder 2, when Ness hits himself with the head of Pk Thunder and his recovery move, is one of the most powerful Ko moves in the game. When Ness uses Pk Thunder, he is surrounded by a sphere of electricity. Depending if he is in the air or on the ground the head can strike any angle of that sphere to send him rocketing in the direction the head hit. if anyone touches the sphere of electricity, they get stunned.

When using this move offensively, it has to be set up. This is based on mindgames mostly and can't be discussed objectively very well. Works best on predictable recoveries or other ways of reading where someone will be. Also can involve stunning someone with the tail of pkt and redirecting head back to Ness and blasting them.

This video, though it uses a stationary cpu, demonstates most things you do with PKT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lpdm8wgSNg

This topic has some nice gifs of thunder use also:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211169

Pk Flash, while a Ko move, requires reading opponents/prediction. Can be used uncharged like an umbrella or you can detonate after they airdodge. Works on slower recoveries like Snake though most of them recover high. Situational move.

This thread, while outdated, does discuss his moveset:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213809

His physical melee range except fair is limited as his stubby legs and hands can only reach so far. From long distance all he has is PKT. Medium, he can do some lag-cancelled Pk Fires from a full jump. medium to close quarters, he can attack. He has trouble against characters with big range like Marth or those who outdo him in the air. He has to get in close to start doing the bulk of damage.

 

[_clinton]

I wonder how many Ness' have fought Sonic a lot? (Just looking at how Ref was 2-0)

Anyway one of the reasons Ness' air game is good is again...because a lot of his moves chain into each other...the following moves can be used in one short hop...

Nair nair
Nair fair
Nair uair
Fair nair
Bair nair
Bair fair
Bair uair

And even though it isn't...Bair bair is very close to working (bloody 10 frames)

The fact that Ness has most of his air moves that are able to kill, and they chain together in harmony...shows he doesn't have much of an issue killing...and the fact that he has a ground game that kills is another boon...again...nothing says suck it like a foe trying to dodge Ness' air game just to land into a bat...

BTW stat wise Bair and Uair are above the curve in KO power for air moves go...Uair is pretty much equal to Wario's in power...Bair is greater than a good number of them as well (it ties with Ganondorf's and Falcon's)

Also...the person who made this guide is great
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169865

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont feel like taking forever so ill just say thank you for the ness lesson

i believe sonic is better because:
1. he is much more capable on the ground.
while he doesnt have teh best range, he is tall enough and has slight disjoints to make his ground game superior to ness
2. Sonic is better at getting in his comfort zone.
one of ness mains has said that ness needs to get in close to do damage, sonic is also made up of entirely physical attacks, how ever his larger range and incredible speed allow him easier access to that close range than ness.
3. recovery,
ness mains can say that they can work around his recovery all day long, but the fact that it is even assumed to be something to be worked aroudn means that its nowhere near as good as sonics. because every time ness is off stage, theres a chance hell die, but with sonic, recovery is rarely an issue especially since there is so many different ways for sonic to go about it

 

[Uffe]

I assume because I can. I've played Jtails and Ref in tourney and beaten them both 2-0....I also dabble in ness. The character is something I am VERY familiar with. U on the other hand have played who? Anyone you killed with NESS FORWARD THROW @ 100% IS A BAD PLAYER. There is no exception to this rule. If you have played alot of sonics and never been gimped then you are playing BAD PLAYERS. If you were playing good players and never getting gimped you would be a big-name player by now with tons of tourney results. You are not. This is a fact. High tier characters like Marth and Meta being ABLE to **** ness off-stage is a FACT. Now it is not GUARANTEED, but the possibility is undeniable. No one has tried to attack Ness or the people that play him. I do, however, attack ignorant statements and the people that make them.

I, Malcolm, do not make these statements for the entire sonic boards. I am sure they welcome the discussion and enjoy ur posts. I, personally, loved all of the other Ness main's posts. I just dont like when people post incorrect information and then fall back on the "ALL THE SONIC MAINS ARE ATTACKING ME" defense as if you have done nothing wrong. Once again, these statements do not represent the feelings of everyone in this thread.

If you're going to assume, then I will, too. Also, you've beaten Jtails and Ref, but this isn't a Sonic vs Ness thread? Nice contradiction. I don't need to drop names because I'm not that type of person who goes and says, "I beat this guy and he's the best of the best." And yes, I'm aware that MK and Marth can kill Ness off stage, but I was told this isn't a match up discussion and it sure has nothing to do with Sonic if we're going to talk about Marth or MK vs Ness. Another thing, just to clear this bit up, I never said that I killed my opponent at 100%. Go back and read that part.

By the way, is there even a hint of me saying something along the lines of the Sonic mains attacking me?

 

[Tenki]

Be rude all you want. I'd expect that from you guys

probably that.


But Sonic can kill at 0% on some stages too, with his B-throw

like walkoff stages.



lol for people freaking out about 100% f-throw death

 

[aeghrur]

BACK UP! Mindgames are applicable, or does no one remember Tenki and adumbrodeus's ideals upon mindgame potential?
For example, since sonic has many tools to create mindgames, he does have a higher mindgame potential of someone say, G&W.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218049

 

[JayBee]

I've can play ness, and I play someone who plays him all the time. here's my thoughts

no matter how good the ness is, he has to deal with:

1: the fact that his tiltls and jabs can be easily out ranged
2: Ness can get beasted from below because the only options are airdodge and Dair, the second option is usually baited and can be done consistantly.
3: The fear of being shield grabbed from moves like fair, which he uses often.
4: the fear of being ***** from a single grab, due to the extra lag he gets from a grab release
5: The amount of harassment he has to avoid due to his less than average recovery ability.

Sonic can gimp ness easily at times. He has the ability to cover more of the air and recover farther than he can, so even if he gets knocked away, he can still make it back and try again, while PK thunder is starting. He (and most characters) can simply force PKT to activate, then run into the head. that's auto death. Iv'e done it a lot of times, and most of those times, im not even specifically going for that. It may be the ness that i played often, but they are vulnerable to stage spikes for sonic, and I usually set that up with D-Throw > running fair offstage> Bair into stage> footstool> Spring gimp. and that's if they don't get killed by the stage spike alone. now think of how much easier it is for better characters to do this, in much simpler fashions. And as Sonic, if Im aware of your Fair, then I bait and punish with an Oos option or grab. No one disputes Ness's ability to wall himself in the air, but his ground game is so undeveloped as his recovery issues that his air game doesn't make up for it. plus, the thing he depends on so heavily, fighting in the air, can get outranged my most of the charaters if spaced correctly.

The ness player i play the most ,C-Note, is very competant with Ness, and knows my Sonic more than anybody. period. But if after one year, I acn still pull off the same basic ideas (outrange his tilts with mine, bait aerials to shield grab, aggressive edgegaurd, etc) a year from now (even though it gets harder at times), then I don't think from a unbiased standpoint most people can say sonic is below ness on the list. he'd probably tell you the same thing.

 

[Neon Ness]

I agree with all of those except 3 and partially 1.

Regarding 3, it's not like all Ness players automatically use Forward air often. And for those of us who do, if you retreat fairs you should be able to avoid shield grabbing for the most part.

Regarding 1, yeah, side and down tilt are outranged pretty badly. But up tilt has more range than it looks like, it's somewhat disjointed. Has great priority, too...

 

[JayBee]

yeah, uptilt is very nice, and that is a good point. but for his tilts overall, we can't be so nice.

moves like Fair for ness are best retreating, you are correct, but they have been used offensively, i hope youre not saying otherwise. Now, for Sonic, retreating fairs from ness is hard to deal with, as for me, i just don't try sometimes, and wait for them to hit the ground again. (while following of coarse.) but then again the better character still out range him in the air, and the rest can pressure the landing area and out range him on the ground so its difficult for him either way sometimes.


plus If ness needs to get close, and retreating fairs sounds very defensive to me, and stalls his offensive goals, snice he can't really pester from long or even mid range without a fair amount of risk, and not only against sonic.

 

[Uffe]

probably that.


But Sonic can kill at 0% on some stages too, with his B-throw

like walkoff stages.



lol for people freaking out about 100% f-throw death

Actually, you're the only one I don't find rude. Anyway, I'm out of your guys' hair.