Is the brawl style of gameplay really that bad?

[smashbrolink]

I think many people would agree with you. The problem is that tor me, and presumably alot of Melee fanatics, the fact that the bar of skill is virtually limitless, or at least beyond human comprehension, makes the game feel much more magical.

For me, Melee had a point where the bar reached too high for me to surmount even after months of effort, and that turned it into a point of frustration.
I'm all for high bars, but I like high bars that aren't so high as to be guaranteed to only be reached by a very small portion of players.
In my case, it was my inability to gain enough dexterity and finger speed to successfully pull off Wave Shining even outside of the stresses of combat, let alone when under pressure in a match.
I know it's a silly thing to some, but for me, that acted as more of a deterrent than losing matches or having a lower tech bar to reach ever could, and I don't even main Fox.XD
It was just the knowledge that there was a point that all of my efforts and hard work could not help me reach, that made me start to dislike bars as high as that.
There were other cases, of course, but Wave Shine is the, dare I say it? *Puts on sunglasses* Shining example of my case.

 

[MuraRengan]

I really don't believe that Melee's technical nature was something that could only be reached by a small portion of players. It sounds like you really just gave up prematurely. Waveshining is definitely not something that's too difficult. In fact, it's actually really, really easy. It just takes practice.

Also, the only characters that require insane tech skill in Melee are Fox, Falco, and Falcon. Marth, Sheik, Puff, Peach are all good characters that don't get into the really high levels of tech skill.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

I really don't believe that Melee's technical nature was something that could only be reached by a small portion of players. It sounds like you really just gave up prematurely. Waveshining is definitely not something that's too difficult. In fact, it's actually really, really easy. It just takes practice.

Also, the only characters that require insane tech skill in Melee are Fox, Falco, and Falcon. Marth, Sheik, Puff, Peach are all good characters that don't get into the really high levels of tech skill.

Pretty much this. I play Fox, Falco, and Falcon for fun but I only play Marth competitively because my Falco is not nearly good enough technically.

 

[[Corn]]

I really don't believe that Melee's technical nature was something that could only be reached by a small portion of players. It sounds like you really just gave up prematurely. Waveshining is definitely not something that's too difficult. In fact, it's actually really, really easy. It just takes practice.

Also, the only characters that require insane tech skill in Melee are Fox, Falco, and Falcon. Marth, Sheik, Puff, Peach are all good characters that don't get into the really high levels of tech skill.

Lol at only the top tiers had advanced tech skill. Just because a character is good doesnt mean that they immediately are some of the hardest to master tech with.

 

[FlowinWater]

Brawl to me was garbage, you got punished for being on the offensive with limited options, it encouraged slow hit and run campy play styles, and wise? I felt limited on what I could do with my character.

 

[FirestormNeos]

No idea what you mean here at all if you are trying to insinuate something.

I'm insinuating that if speed dominates, MK is king.

 

[[Corn]]

I'm insinuating that if speed dominates, MK is king.

...Which is entirely true?

That character shouldnt be included in any discussions at all though for Brawl, the entire metagame is based on who can punish Meta Knight.

 

[FirestormNeos]

...Which is entirely true?

That character shouldnt be included in any discussions at all though for Brawl, the entire metagame is based on who can punish Meta Knight.

But seriously, I only brought him up so I could offer a possible reason why he's OP.

 

[[Corn]]

But seriously, I only brought him up so I could offer a possible reason why he's OP.

Isnt it concluded that he is a broken piece of crap? I assumed that was common knowledge.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Isnt it concluded that he is a broken piece of crap? I assumed that was common knowledge.

BROKEN= YES. WHAT I WAS DOING= COMING UP WITH THEORY AS TO WHY HE WAS BROKEN.

HOW YOUR ACTING= LIKE THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[[Corn]]

So I guess im agreeing with you then.

 

[FirestormNeos]

So I guess im agreeing with you then.

wat.

 

[[Corn]]

wat.

I believe Meta Knight is broken OP character, I assumed you were being sarcastic this entire time and was confused.

 

[M15t3R E]

Ignoring the endless back-and-forth here, there's this:

Hitstun provides an offensive reward for landing a hit on your opponent by giving the attacker continued opportunities to follow up. What contributes to a defensive game is strong defensive options (very low shield stun, strong shields in general, controllable air dodge with extremely low landing lag) and low offensive reward (follow up reads let alone combos are almost universally too risky).

Besides making for a more offensive game (which from an observation standpoint is considered more entertaining to watch by a lot of people), hitstun and strong follow up/combo game is the crux of some characters like Mario and Falcon. The high difficulty in performing these (tied with other physics things like no momentum carry into jumps which prevents making large leaps for approaching) ultimately damages the functionality of characters who are dependent on combos and setups for damage building and KOs.

Increased hitstun doesn't make the game more competitive. It just makes the game competitive in a different way. Melee is faster because of the increased hitstun, not just the physics; more hitstun means you need to know how to follow up well. Lower hitstun means it is even more important to know how to put yourself in a more advantageous position and to punish approaches more often. As a result, in the highest levels of play in Brawl, we don't see people camping. We see players approaching intelligently.

 

[[Corn]]

Increased hitstun doesn't make the game more competitive. It just makes the game competitive in a different way. Melee is faster because of the increased hitstun, not just the physics; more hitstun means you need to know how to follow up well. Lower hitstun means it is even more important to know how to put yourself in a more advantageous position and to punish approaches more often. As a result, in the highest levels of play in Brawl, we don't see people camping. We see players approaching intelligently.

I agree with you, but unless the hitstun is enough to put you at an advantageous position to continue aggresion or retreat it isnt.

That is one of the biggest flaws in Brawl, some characters simply dont gain the advantage when they land a hit. Getting punished for punishing your opponent isnt the best game design.

 

[MuraRengan]

Increased hitstun doesn't make the game more competitive. It just makes the game competitive in a different way. Melee is faster because of the increased hitstun, not just the physics; more hitstun means you need to know how to follow up well. Lower hitstun means it is even more important to know how to put yourself in a more advantageous position and to punish approaches more often. As a result, in the highest levels of play in Brawl, we don't see people camping. We see players approaching intelligently.

I'm sorry but your premises don't add up to your conclusion in my eyes. Lower hitstun CAN mean all those things you said it means, but it can just as easily be a deterrent to approaching in the first place (I.E. camping). If it is as you say, and there is less camping in competitive Brawl now, there must be some new metagame development which has made camping less effective.

 

[M15t3R E]

I agree with you, but unless the hitstun is enough to put you at an advantageous position to continue aggresion or retreat it isnt.

That is one of the biggest flaws in Brawl, some characters simply dont gain the advantage when they land a hit. Getting punished for punishing your opponent isnt the best game design.

If you look at it from the perspective of "Melee is the paragon, so let's judge everything off of that", what you and Melee fans have been saying seems to hold water. I personally like being able to get out of juggles with SDI or a proper move input. It takes knowledge and some level of skill to know to do that. This isn't available in Melee, where many combos are akin to a chaingrab from IC's. Being that Brawl has far fewer combos (not zero combos) and less hitstun means that you have to figure out when to attack and when not to attack. That takes experience and intelligence. I find myself questioning why I am one of the only ones who seems to realize this.

I'm sorry but your premises don't add up to your conclusion in my eyes. Lower hitstun CAN mean all those things you said it means, but it can just as easily be a deterrent to approaching in the first place (I.E. camping). If it is as you say, and there is less camping in competitive Brawl now, there must be some new metagame development which has made camping less effective.

Then I'd like to know why top players both in the USA and abroad are so aggressive. I can watch any competitive Melee match and see the players hesitant to approach all the same. I don't feel it is an issue to the extent that some make it out to be.

 

[MuraRengan]

This isn't available in Melee, where many combos are akin to a chaingrab from IC's..

Nope. This is wrong. SDI is incredibly useful in Melee, and the only people who can pull off combos in Melee are people who are extremely good at reading DI and techs.

Then I'd like to know why top players both in the USA and abroad are so aggressive. I can watch any competitive Melee match and see the players hesitant to approach all the same. I don't feel it is an issue to the extent that some make it out to be.

I'd like to know as well. I just don't think your assessment of the matter is as accurate as you think.

 

[[Corn]]

If you look at it from the perspective of "Melee is the paragon, so let's judge everything off of that", what you and Melee fans have been saying seems to hold water. I personally like being able to get out of juggles with SDI or a proper move input. It takes knowledge and some level of skill to know to do that. This isn't available in Melee, where many combos are akin to a chaingrab from IC's. Being that Brawl has far fewer combos (not zero combos) and less hitstun means that you have to figure out when to attack and when not to attack. That takes experience and intelligence. I find myself questioning why I am one of the only ones who seems to realize this.

Please dont compare me to the melee fans, I enjoy Brawl much more.

I am not reffering to juggles, im reffering to character specific things that make them bad due to lack of hitstun when landing an attack.

Go to 7:25
Ganon lands his Up B on Charizard, who immeadiatly killed him while he was stunned after landing the attack.


Stuff like that isnt acceptable

 

[Black Mantis]

Brawl to me was garbage, you got punished for being on the offensive with limited options, it encouraged slow hit and run campy play styles, and wise? I felt limited on what I could do with my character.

Yet another inaccurate outdated post from an old melee player. It's not 2008 anymore.

 

[M15t3R E]

Nope. This is wrong. SDI is incredibly useful in Melee, and the only people who can pull off combos in Melee are people who are extremely good at reading DI and techs.



I'd like to know as well. I just don't think your assessment of the matter is as accurate as you think.

Lapse in memory. Yes, SDI exists in Melee. That doesn't discount what I've said about Brawl.

 

[DRM4R10]

Hey new member here,
ANYWAYS I would say Brawl's gameplay is somewhat inferior to Melee's but by no means does it make it a terrible game. I do enjoy playing brawl now and then, but my most hooked up smash game is melee

 

[GP&B]

Increased hitstun doesn't make the game more competitive. It just makes the game competitive in a different way. Melee is faster because of the increased hitstun, not just the physics; more hitstun means you need to know how to follow up well. Lower hitstun means it is even more important to know how to put yourself in a more advantageous position and to punish approaches more often. As a result, in the highest levels of play in Brawl, we don't see people camping. We see players approaching intelligently.

I never said anything about hitstun making the game more competitive. The higher hitstun means you can give and receive bigger punishments. If you think you can just aimlessly and aggressively Nair your way to someone as Fox, you're going to get hell for it.

 

[M15t3R E]

I never said anything about hitstun making the game more competitive. The higher hitstun means you can give and receive bigger punishments. If you think you can just aimlessly and aggressively Nair your way to someone as Fox, you're going to get hell for it.

Well, someone asked how hitstun makes the game more competitive and you seemed to be defending that notion. Pardon the misunderstanding.
With bigger punishments all around, this means less time each game spent on actually approaching, which in turn means less time having to read your opponent and attempting to mix up your gameplay to throw them off-guard. All of this, in turn, can mean more camping but I only see noobs camping it up. In every high level game of Brawl I see, the players are quite aggressive. They are constantly figuring out how to approach differently each time, whereas in Melee this is important but not as time consuming or mentally straining.

 

[Nyjeezy]

I've seen a lot of melee fans who are worried about the new smash because it looks pretty similar to brawl. Admittedly, it had me somewhat worried as well but I'm not sure if that is really a problem. Basically I feel like brawl being an overall lacking game has more to do with improper execution and less to do with the actual style of game play itself. Brawl's air dodge system is not a bad one. You are still able to bait and punish with proper reads. It's just a strong defensive option. The problems come up when it's combined with a severe lack of hitstun and it basically breaks all juggle/followup attempts. With a bit more hitstun this mechanic is just fine. Lack of hitstun also prevents certain "jab combos" from being actual combos. Another problem is stale moves, a mechanic intended to promote variety, but instead enables one move chain grabs. Just the grab system in general was problematic, with non universal grab release recoveries leading to infinites and other things. In some instances, grab releases lead to a better followup than an actual throw. I feel like a lot of these flaws are oversights and not really on purpose thought out design decisions. Because of that, I feel like the new smash bros could resemble brawl fairly closely in terms of style/mechanics, and if the fine details are properly balanced then it easily has the potential to be legitimately good.

Yes I agree with longer hitstuns to promote combos (is that how it works? I dunno. I would just like to see legit combos being able to be made). I agree with keeping the air dodge mechanics.
I also think they should keep Stale Moves. I do believe is promotes variety to some extent. I think chain grabs are just fine. only certain characters are susceptible to grab release set ups and I think that can be used as a balancing techinique (*AHEM**COUGH*METAKNIGHT*COUGH*). Characters that are able to perform chain grabs are part of their unique advantage. They're no different from combos in my opinion even if they take less "skill". Although this brings the ice grabbers to attention. While performing those infinite and inescapable chain grabs take tremendous skill, is that a too big of a reward for the talented player who pulls them off?

 

[GP&B]

It's fine. Competitive to me is really not the term I feel like anyone should be throwing out so readily. To me, it's anything that provides human players with the ability to compete and win in. Nothing more, nothing less. Competitive depth on the other hand is what I think people want to be referring to as that's where most of the debate stems from. Tic-Tac-Toe is competitive, but it's certainly not a very deep game because its options are extremely limited. Either way, I'm not advocating higher hitstun as a means of competitive depth but rather as a means of promoting better character functionality all around (which as a Mario player personally bothered me a lot because I felt he was very restricted).

I disagree though on neutral game. In Melee, it's simply done at a much higher speed especially where amazing SDI is involved. Some move combinations are done almost deliberately to throw off an opponent's DI or tech in order to further continue follow ups, like a Marth that chooses to stop UTilt juggles that would allow their opponent to easily DI to safety in favor of letting them fall and then initiate a setup into a tipper FSmash. Even during combo game, there's a huge amount of thought put into mixing up even the most typical BnB's in a way that both players have to be constantly aware of and it's a huge part of why Melee's so much fun to watch. It's the ridiculous and almost unthinkable ways that people utilize moves and timing. Maybe that's also why I enjoy watching Falco way more than Fox in Melee.

I refrain to speak on examples of high level Brawl though. I was very unfortunately exposed to the worst of it (knowing well not to judge based off that but damn those planking clips are hard to watch) and I'm just not familiar enough with the current scene to comment on neutral game other than Brawl's slower pace allowing for more SF-like footsies, something I kind of liked a lot about the original.

 

[M15t3R E]

I've analyzed the footage we have so far of the new SSB game and it appears falling speed is intensified, and movement speed is either unchanged or increased (hard to tell). Tripping is gone and KO's can happen earlier. I wouldn't mind a bit of added hitstun. L canceling and wavedashing need not be in it, though.

 

[Chiroz]

Well, someone asked how hitstun makes the game more competitive and you seemed to be defending that notion. Pardon the misunderstanding.
With bigger punishments all around, this means less time each game spent on actually approaching, which in turn means less time having to read your opponent and attempting to mix up your gameplay to throw them off-guard. All of this, in turn, can mean more camping but I only see noobs camping it up. In every high level game of Brawl I see, the players are quite aggressive. They are constantly figuring out how to approach differently each time, whereas in Melee this is important but not as time consuming or mentally straining.

I've been reading your posts and while I agree with most of your premises, most of the conclusions you derive from them seem to be wrong (in my opinion). I believe it might be because you are confused about what the term camp means. You say Brawl gives much more chance for people to think out their approach instead of actually approaching and this is true. You say people can't approach as often or unintelligently because of all the advantages given to the defensive player so they must approach more intelligently and utilize things like spacing better, that is also true, but if you havent noticed you've just defined camping.

That is literally the definition. If you cannot approach as much, you will stay back, waiting for more intelligent approaches or for a bigger mistake from your opponent. You cannot do idiotic approaches waiting for an opponents wrong spacing or missed tech as in Brawl you cannot punish those as effectively. Instead you must approach much more conscient and much more intelligently, you must choose your approaches much more specifically which in turn means you will camp more waiting for those specific opportunities.

You then say bigger punishments means less reads, less approaches and less mind games, as one mistake means a bigger punishment and thus means more damage, faster deaths and less amount of these situations, all true. Then you say this leads to more campyness. I am trying yo figure out how less instances of opportunities to camp leads to more campyness.

I would understand if you said that bigger punishments would lead to players approaching less and thinking harder about approaches and thus lead to more campyness, but you already went out of your way to say that in your opinion you have to think more about your approaches in Brawl. So how do less and also shorter instances of these opportunities to camp equate to more overall time camping?

 

[M15t3R E]

I've been reading your posts and while I agree with most of your premises, most of the conclusions you derive from them seem to be wrong (in my opinion). I believe it might be because you are confused about what the term camp means. You say Brawl gives much more chance for people to think out their approach instead of actually approaching and this is true. You say people can't approach as often or unintelligently because of all the advantages given to the defensive player so they must approach more intelligently and utilize things like spacing better, that is also true, but if you havent noticed you've just defined camping.

That is literally the definition. If you cannot approach as much, you will stay back, waiting for more intelligent approaches or for a bigger mistake from your opponent. You cannot do idiotic approaches waiting for an opponents wrong spacing or missed tech as in Brawl you cannot punish those as effectively. Instead you must approach much more conscient and much more intelligently, you must choose your approaches much more specifically which in turn means you will camp more waiting for those specific opportunities.

You then say bigger punishments means less reads, less approaches and less mind games, as one mistake means a bigger punishment and thus means more damage, faster deaths and less amount of these situations, all true. Then you say this leads to more campyness. I am trying yo figure out how less instances of opportunities to camp leads to more campyness.

I would understand if you said that bigger punishments would lead to players approaching less and thinking harder about approaches and thus lead to more campyness, but you already went out of your way to say that in your opinion you have to think more about your approaches in Brawl. So how do less and also shorter instances of these opportunities to camp equate to more overall time camping?

I don't understand your question to me. I don't need to explain my reasoning again because it seems you get it. What I am concluding is that Brawl is somewhat like a game of chess. You don't act hastily, but when you do it is quick and methodological. It can be called camping if your definition of camping is so broad as to include when you are looking for an opening in your opponent's movements in preparation to approach. That's not how I define camping. What I meant by camping is when you attempt to force the opponent to approach you.

 

[sam4]

If there's one thing I've learned from 10+ years of playing Smash games since I got Melee shortly after the Gamecube was released to the public, it's that every Smash game has lived up to the purpose Sakurai meant it to serve. Sakurai said he wanted make Brawl easier and more accessible for casual gamers and that it was (not that Melee was too difficult, but still).

From what Sakurai has said and I've seen of the footage released, SSB4 is a balance between Melee and Brawl. Rest assured, that is what you're going to get. At the very least, I think no tripping and somewhat increased hitstun have been confirmed outright, so that sounds like a good enough start for at least the competitive aspect of SSB4.

It's not like a repeat of Brawl would kill SSB4's competitive scene anyhow. Last time I checked, Brawl's competitive scene wasn't dead. Neither Melee nor Brawl were flawless, but it doesn't take much to convince people that a median between Melee and Brawl is necessary to appeal and please the most fans who prefer either of the last two Smash games (or 64, as the case may be).

Furthermore, what makes a game competitively "successful" (by the somewhat arbitrary standards posed by competitive Melee players) is too subtle to be determined by the little information we have. Speed and tech don't add a lot of depth in the long run even if sometimes they can be good foundations for a particular kind of playstyle. If SSB4 provides variety in offensive vs. defensive playstyles, an unbiased playstyle base, and lots of options for multiple strategies and approaches, that's really all it needs to be a deep competitive experience. Speed and tech provide additional "personality" as the case may be but there is no obvious speed or tech depth that a fighting game in general must have in order to be competitively successful. At the end of the day, if it's an actual fighting game and it's fun to play, it'll have a sizable competitive scene. Everyone has preferences, but that's really what's important.

 

[GP&B]

If Brawl was a terrible competitive game, people would not play it plain and simple. Without going into more complex mechanics, the foundation of Smash alone is highly appealing and especially unique amongst fighters and it'd be hard to imagine it not having a strong following. I can't really find a way to word this that doesn't imply negative things about Brawl, but understand that's not the case.

I think what I mean is that despite Sakurai's (fairly successful) efforts to make Brawl more casual, it's still working off the foundation of a fighter that's both unique and functions really quite well competitively.

 

[otter]

I've analyzed the footage we have so far of the new SSB game and it appears falling speed is intensified, and movement speed is either unchanged or increased (hard to tell). Tripping is gone and KO's can happen earlier. I wouldn't mind a bit of added hitstun. L canceling and wavedashing need not be in it, though.

since you don't think L-canceling should be in, do you think aerials should have less landing lag by default, or do you just prefer brawl air attacks?

 

[FirestormNeos]

I believe Meta Knight is broken OP character, I assumed you were being sarcastic this entire time and was confused.

SARCASTIC= YES.

AGREE WITH YOU= I DO.

THESE CAN OVERLAP.

THEREFORE, I THINK THE MOST LOGICAL CONCLUSION WE CAN MAKE FROM THIS IS THAT LUIGI NEEDS MORE WUMBO.

 

[Vkrm]

If Brawl was a terrible competitive game, people would not play it plain and simple. Without going into more complex mechanics, the foundation of Smash alone is highly appealing and especially unique amongst fighters and it'd be hard to imagine it not having a strong following. I can't really find a way to word this that doesn't imply negative things about Brawl, but understand that's not the case.

I think what I mean is that despite Sakurai's (fairly successful) efforts to make Brawl more casual, it's still working off the foundation of a fighter that's both unique and functions really quite well competitively.

What do you think about COD? I think it's fine to enjoy brawl more than melee because of the slower pace, but I don't think it's fair to call it a good competitive game. Tripping and 0-2 frames can keep player skill from determining the outcome. Plus needing the ledge grab rule. Having a scene doesn't mean the game is good. There are a lot of great games that just can't sustain players.

 

[smashbrolink]

I really don't believe that Melee's technical nature was something that could only be reached by a small portion of players. It sounds like you really just gave up prematurely. Waveshining is definitely not something that's too difficult. In fact, it's actually really, really easy. It just takes practice.

Also, the only characters that require insane tech skill in Melee are Fox, Falco, and Falcon. Marth, Sheik, Puff, Peach are all good characters that don't get into the really high levels of tech skill.

I practiced for a good 6 months, my friend.
If I can't get it in 6 months of play time, then it's not something I can competently do during battle, and when facing off against someone who can easily incorporate something that advanced into their routine for quickly stacking damage, it instantly puts me at a severe disadvantage. Especially if I'm playing as anything other than a top-tier character, like my main for example.
It's simply a natural limit for me; my fingers don't move fast enough to perform the move reliably, let alone during the pressure of actual combat.
I know others who are the same way so it is not an isolated incident. If you're a different case, then count yourself lucky, but just be aware that there are people out there that simply don't have the ability for it.
That's the kind of thing I want to see stop happening; lower the bar so that anyone can do it, but not so far that it takes away from the satisfaction of making the moves work for you.
There's a middle ground here for those with the open mind to see it.

Also, just to clarify, when I mentioned a "small portion of players", I was referring to the competitive base, since, as far as I'm aware, there's far more people that aren't competitive due to not knowing or being able to pull off these things, or just not liking to use them[yes, they do exist, rare as they are], or in other words, casual players, than there are competitive people.
Not putting competitive people down, here.
*puts on my spiky golden wig*
I'm just saiyan. 8)

 

[Chiroz]

I don't understand your question to me. I don't need to explain my reasoning again because it seems you get it. What I am concluding is that Brawl is somewhat like a game of chess. You don't act hastily, but when you do it is quick and methodological. It can be called camping if your definition of camping is so broad as to include when you are looking for an opening in your opponent's movements in preparation to approach. That's not how I define camping. What I meant by camping is when you attempt to force the opponent to approach you.

What most players refer to as camping is the act of just not approaching. You seem to think that if your opponent approaches you every second he is free then you are camping, in fact, you are not, your opponent is just approaching you stupidly.

Camping would be when you do not approach your opponent and just spam ranged skills or dash back and forth and do nothing. While, yes, technically this does force your opponent to approach you, this is not what Brawl is critized for.

Brawl is critized for camping because this "camping" isn't only viable for the characters with ranged harrass, its actually the best strategy for every character (as you pointed out and I agreed earlier). You cannot just approach and tech your way into and out of baits, you need to wait for the perfect opportunity to approach, so the game becomes campy on both sides (both you and your opponent will do whats optimal). Since neither side wants to approach it is incredibly boring to watch and thus the critizisms (although it is very fun to play because of the higher mental game, I know).

This is what people mean by its a campy game, they don't mean you force your opponent to approach you all the time. They just mean no one (neither you or your opponent) approaches one another at all most of the time (this is because of what we said earlier).

 

[Chiroz]

Btw just going with your chess analysis. I myself love to play chess, yet I would never watch 2 people play it. My dad on the other hand has tons of chess books and different boards and loves playing and watching chess games. Everyone has different likes and preferences, but more often than not, games with few action events or occurings are disliked as an item to watch.

Most people don't like watching chess, it's slow and people spectating aren't doing whats fun about it (thinking!), they are just watching and waiting for those "WOW" moments.

This is something that plagues Brawl and its why people say: "I don't like watching Brawl matches, they are way too campy".

 

[Signia]

Brawl Pika has more combos than Melee Pika.

Melee Pika has a lot of combos...

 

[Vkrm]

Brawl is like chess........




Any slower and that **** would be turned based.



Lol jk. I think melee more resembles chess a bit more, considering how its a deeper game.

 

[TweetyPurd]

What about high level games of SSB64?

In that, both opponents are also rather "campy" waiting for the right moment to approach, throwing out air attacks for safety.
And 64 has the MOST hitstun of all the smashes.

So i do not think that the level of hitstun = level of campyness (if you get what i mean)

Its something more in the game