is there a point?

[Kinzer]

This is getting off-topic now kind of.

...But before I leave, I will say that Excellence has it right.

 

[B!squick]

Brawl+, as Ankoku said, is Melee on Lightning mode with none of the actual aspects that made Melee fun. Brawl+ has absolutely no chance of growing beyond a small group of people and will eventually die off.

Concurred.

 

[Allied]

Brawl+, as Ankoku said, is Melee on Lightning mode with none of the actual aspects that made Melee fun. Brawl+ has absolutely no chance of growing beyond a small group of people and will eventually die off.

Quoted for Truth.

 

[bobson]

How many of you agreeing with that have actually played Brawl+ in its current form?

 

[Adriel]

There's no point really, unless you play for fun more than to win, and/or if you only want to get as far as you can with your character.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

You are either A) good enough to win a tournament or B) not good enough to win a tournament. The character you choose does not matter, especially in Brawl.

 

[Vyse]

Hey guys just a heads up.

Talking about Brawl+ where it's not warranted is considered off topic by me. This thread is about whether there's a point in maining a lower tiered character, not the character viability seen in Brawl+

As to the question. Of course there's a point, personal preference is always a valid reason.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You are either A) good enough to win a tournament or B) not good enough to win a tournament. The character you choose does not matter, especially in Brawl.

By the way, you're not good enough to win a (large) tournament if you pick Yoshi. Or Captain Falcon. Or Ganondorf. In fact, you're not good enough to win a (large) tournament unless you pick at least one character on the top half of Ankoku's list. Funny how that works.

You cannot win if you care about the character you win with. That's a scrubby mindset, and already indicates your limitations. You have to play using the character that you can do more with than any other character. It will not be a character that is low tier. If you think it is, then you are either bad, or don't understand my point - the character must be the one that with practice, gives you the most ability to win.

 

[Megapants]

Sure, in a competitive environment, it's much harder to be successful with a low tier character. If you are in it just for the money or the glory, hop on the bandwagon and win some cash. But if you like a challenge, or just want to try to be different, go for a low tier. It's satisfying to win, it's fun to learn the twists and turns of low tiers, and it is just plain fun in general.

So whether it is pointless to main a low tier or not is based on one simple question, in my book: What do I want to accomplish with this game? For me, I play for fun and for the challenge. So I main PT. Whee! :D

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Sure, in a competitive environment, it's much harder to be successful with a low tier character. If you are in it just for the money or the glory, hop on the bandwagon and win some cash. But if you like a challenge, or just want to try to be different, go for a low tier. It's satisfying to win, it's fun to learn the twists and turns of low tiers, and it is just plain fun in general.

So whether it is pointless to main a low tier or not is based on one simple question, in my book: What do I want to accomplish with this game? For me, I play for fun and for the challenge. So I main PT. Whee! :D

The only reason you need additional challenge in a competitive environment, where the absolute best most people have to offer isn't enough the majority of the time, is because you are either surrounded by scrubs in your region, or you're better than at least one player in the WHOBO top eight.

If it is impossible for you to win with a top character like Meta Knight, then you're kidding yourself if you think it's possible to win with PT by simply putting more work in.

The people who change the tier lists don't play characters that simply require "more work" to be successful at - they choose characters that they can use to a greater potential than any other character, and bring their character and their abilities to that potential. If your character is bad and you can recognize he's a low tier, then you aren't going to get anywhere with that character. Diddy's only where he is today because his potential was recognized by someone who saw Diddy as having more win potential for himself than any other character in Brawl, NOT because they believed working twice as hard to main Diddy will get them somewhere.

 

[Mecakoto]

The only reason you need additional challenge in a competitive environment, where the absolute best most people have to offer isn't enough the majority of the time, is because you are either surrounded by scrubs in your region, or you're better than at least one player in the WHOBO top eight.

If it is impossible for you to win with a top character like Meta Knight, then you're kidding yourself if you think it's possible to win with PT by simply putting more work in.

The people who change the tier lists don't play characters that simply require "more work" to be successful at - they choose characters that they can use to a greater potential than any other character, and bring their character and their abilities to that potential. If your character is bad and you can recognize he's a low tier, then you aren't going to get anywhere with that character. Diddy's only where he is today because his potential was recognized by someone who saw Diddy as having more win potential for himself than any other character in Brawl, NOT because they believed working twice as hard to main Diddy will get them somewhere.

You act like anyone who doesn't play high tier will not win a tournament because their character of choice isn't high tier.

There has been instances in Smash history where someone has dropped a High or top tier character for a lower one and became more successful because of it. It is either because that character just felt right for them or that their style fit more with that character.

Mid and low tier will always have to work harder to beat most of the top tier, but tier lists are just a generalization of how a character would fair overall. Luigi, my main, falls to most of the top half, except for 2, which Luigi has 70:30 favor in both. Anyone else, save for Marth and Meta, are covered with my 2 other characters.

With your general attitude, I doubt you spend any time analyzing and working out matchups beyond B tier, so when you get beaten by a Yoshi, Ness, Lucas, or even Captain Falcon, no Johns. The player with a lesser character knew what they were doing better then you did and most likely had fun in the match showing you what they could do.

And that is why people play mid to low tier. People who do play mid to low not only for the money involved or recognition, but they play for fun and using their character. This was how it was in Melee, playing for fun with a side perk of a bit of pocket money. How this was lost with Brawl, I don't know.

One more thing: the next time you post about playing to win, I require you to give a **** good reason why, other then the thrill of winning. You CAN NOT support yourself playing a video game unless you can beat 99.99% of the other pros in the world, so money is out of the equation. This holds especially true for fighting game like Melee and Brawl.

And, before you say I only play Mid and above (for the most part), I'd just like to say that I've been developing my Peach, Lucas, Shiek, and *GASP* Yoshi. Why? Because I enjoy them. God, Buddha, Zeus, and Chuck Norris help me for having FUN playing a video game. May all 4 save my soul from the fires of hell for having fun while playing competitively.

 

[Crystanium]

By the way, you're not good enough to win a (large) tournament if you pick Yoshi. Or Captain Falcon. Or Ganondorf. In fact, you're not good enough to win a (large) tournament unless you pick at least one character on the top half of Ankoku's list. Funny how that works.

You cannot win if you care about the character you win with. That's a scrubby mindset, and already indicates your limitations. You have to play using the character that you can do more with than any other character. It will not be a character that is low tier. If you think it is, then you are either bad, or don't understand my point - the character must be the one that with practice, gives you the most ability to win.

Not everyone is a disciple of David Sirlin like you. Please get off your high horses and stop telling people what they are and are not, just because they prefer a character other than those being used so often in tournaments. As for Yoshi, you must've missed the one livestream where Bwett beat DSF's Meta Knight on Smashville at WHOBO.

 

[-Ran]

As for Yoshi, you must've missed the one livestream where Bwett beat DSF's Meta Knight on Smashville at WHOBO.

And how many times has Yoshi won a major tournament? People pick the characters that they use often times because that is who they feel that they have the best chance with. Most of the time this feeling comes from whenever they first started to played the game and picked a character that they liked. So when they begin to learn a new character, rather than taking the month to increase their collective skill, they keep using their old character hoping that the time that they invest will bring them to the pinnacle of that character.

Competitively speaking, the only reason to learn a character that isn't a Top tier is to take advantage of match up knowledge. If you play a bad *** Ness, and no one at the tournament has played one before, then you will most likely sneak in a few wins that are from more than just player skill alone.

Then there comes the point of comfort. Some people just don't like playing Meta Knight. It doesn't feel right to them. Others feel disgusted for using chain grabs, or have some other form of honor code that prevents them from playing characters. Eventually they find a character that they identify with and thus develop a massive blind spot to becoming better. The BEST players are amazing with almost every character in the game.

 

[Crystanium]

And how many times has Yoshi won a major tournament?

None, as far as I am aware, though I became very excited when Bwett was beating DSF's Meta Knight. I'm sure a lot of the people watching felt the same. I would not feel the same excitement if it was just Snake or another Meta Knight. I won't argue that Yoshi is the best choice, but not everyone is going to choose the best character in the game. If everyone really wanted to win, they would just use the character without any terrible match-ups, and that character would be Meta Knight. It wouldn't be very diverse if everyone used Meta Knight.

People pick the characters that they use often times because that is who they feel that they have the best chance with. Most of the time this feeling comes from whenever they first started to played the game and picked a character that they liked. So when they begin to learn a new character, rather than taking the month to increase their collective skill, they keep using their old character hoping that the time that they invest will bring them to the pinnacle of that character.

Okay.

Competitively speaking, the only reason to learn a character that isn't a Top tier is to take advantage of match up knowledge. If you play a bad *** Ness, and no one at the tournament has played one before, then you will most likely sneak in a few wins that are from more than just player skill alone.

Then there are some of the Gimpyfishes who prefer using a low-tier, are aware of the weaknesses, and acknowledge that using these low-tiers are going to be a lot more to put up with and learn than some of the other characters. Gimpyfish did not choose Bowser when he was still playing Brawl. Ask him why, if you ever get the chance. He still uses Bowser in Melee, and Bowser is trash in Melee.

Eventually they find a character that they identify with and thus develop a massive blind spot to becoming better.

So, I guess we should all drop our mains and just use Meta Knight.

 

[-Ran]

If you want to win on a national level? Probably so. The key thing to realize that most people that play 'competitive Smash' aren't viable on a national level. The reality of the situation is that unless you play a high end character you aren't going to win a state/regional/national tournament. We can sugarcoat it all we want, but eventually the nature of your character will restrict your growth as a player.

Now, not to pick on Gimpyfish, but did he ever win a National tournament? Was he ranked first in his state? I'm going to have to say no, he was not [according to Smashwiki]. He is remembered as one of the best Bowser players, not for bringing home the money. I'm sure he'll come on in and correct me if the information is wrong because I mean no disrespect for what he did in Melee.

Can you be good with a Low Tier? Yes. Can you win a State/Regional/National Tournament? Not likely.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Copy and paste breaks links =/

If you want to win on a national level? Probably so. The key thing to realize that most people that play 'competitive Smash' aren't viable on a national level. The reality of the situation is that unless you play a high end character you aren't going to win a state/regional/national tournament. We can sugarcoat it all we want, but eventually the nature of your character will restrict your growth as a player.

Now, not to pick on Gimpyfish, but did he ever win a National tournament? Was he ranked first in his state? I'm going to have to say no, he was not [according to Smashwiki]. He is remembered as one of the best Bowser players, not for bringing home the money. I'm sure he'll come on in and correct me if the information is wrong because I mean no disrespect for what he did in Melee.

Can you be good with a Low Tier? Yes. Can you win a State/Regional/National Tournament? Not likely.

Houston's Official Brawl Ordeal (HOBO) 5
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171469
June 07, 2008
Out of 73:
5th - Mr. 3000 (Sonic)


ColossalCon7
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=1543
June 28, 2008
Out of 126:
1st - Monta (Marth/Mario/Sonic)


Castlegolf Smashfest 2
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206882&highlight=Castle+golf+fest
December 13th, 2008
Out of 42
4th- Malcom (All Sonic)


Final Smash #5: Reunion
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208364&highlight=final+reunion
January 10th, 2009
Out of 97
4th- Espy (Sonic)

Sonic sez hai


Pick who you like. Only change when you get bored of the character or feel like it's limiting you in some way. Most tourney goers that I've heard have secondaries.

But yeah there's a point in playing "lowtiered" characters especially if they don't really belong where they've been placed lol
Post 1600

 

[bobson]

If you want to win on a national level? Probably so. The key thing to realize that most people that play 'competitive Smash' aren't viable on a national level. The reality of the situation is that unless you play a high end character you aren't going to win a state/regional/national tournament. We can sugarcoat it all we want, but eventually the nature of your character will restrict your growth as a player.

The vast majority of top tier mains aren't capable of winning nationals either. Mew2King wins nationals. No one else does as of yet, and the reason for this is not because they aren't using Metaknight.
For 95% of the population, whether their character is capable of winning a national or not should not be a concern, because they aren't going to win a national regardless.

 

[-Ran]

Pick who you like. Only change when you get bored of the character or feel like it's limiting you in someway. Most tourney goers that I've heard have secondaries.

But yeah there's a point in playing "lowtiered" characters especiall if they don't really belong where they've been placed lol

Aside from the two December ones, the rest are irrelevant due to how old the data is. Furthermore, none of them are WINS. Sonic is mid tier, not low tier [at least in my opinion]. His Tier placement is one that is forged from a general lack of knowledge of Sonic's metagame. I've played Espy before in a tournament, we had some really nice matches. He by far knew the match up of Snake vs Sonic far more than I do. You know what I thought after I lost to him in a tournament after a close set?

'Wow, I wonder how good he'd be if he played MK.'

As I said before, the key is that most people are not on contention for nationals. Most people aren't going to place in the money, and so if that is fine with you, then don't play a high tiered character.

 

[Ismael]

MK mainers: "hey, we found a way to counter Snakes and no longer have them as a bad matchup for us!"

Ran Iji: "uh oh! I better drop Snake and use MK if I want to stay competitive!"

The rest of us: "lol"

 

[-Ran]

I haven't consider Snake's match up vs MK even for a long time. Once Snake is in the air, there is little he can do vs a great MK. Did I pick up other characters due to this?

Yes. My MK is actually pretty decent. ^_~ [Then again, that isn't very hard to accomplish.]

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

The biggest one is a win but it's not all Sonic. But the other character is NOT MK, So I put it up anyway.

Also I'd like to state that that in the old ones Sonic was even lower then than he is now. So I think they do apply, for this discussion anyway.

If playing to win was the only thing people thought about, everyone would play MK, get bored of the game and that'd be the end of Brawl. Well at least I think tournaments consisting mostly of MK dittos would be boring anyway. There's got to be more to it then just the "kick the opponent's *** factor" Otherwise a game as unbalanced as Brawl won't survive.

lol Ismael

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

I dunno, people tell me all the time that I make them think Metaknight is low tier.

Haha lol good one. XD

 

[auroreon]

The old 'Why go low tier?' argument again...

To understand why people deside to play low tier characters you must first understand why people play the game in the first place. The answer is obviously because you enjoy it.
To say otherwise is lying to yourself. I doubt anyone plays solely for the money.
We play the game in the most enjoyable way we can, competetively, and as such we are playing with the purpose of winning. So therefore the fun is in winning the match? Wrong.
The fun is not in winning the match, if you could just win any match without any trouble at all would that be fun? to just snap your fingers and win? No it wouldn't.
The enjoyment that comes from Brawl is no different from other games, the real fun and enjoyment that comes from playing Brawl comes from the challenge. If there is no challenge the game is boring.
When you play a match you are taking on a challenge and trying to overcome that challenege, success is a journey not a destination. The thrill of overcoming the challenge and giving a match your best to try and concur your opponent is what Brawl is all about, as well as any other competetive game.
Winning is merely the realisation of your goal. You aren't enjoying Brawl after you have finished playing a match are you? The enjoyment was in playing the game, rising to the challenge and overcoming that challenge.
So when it comes to character choice you really only have three choices.
1. You can choose a character that will give you the greatest chance of winning. If you choose to do this it is most likely you are going to main MetaKnight. You will be able to concur challenge more, but it won't be as rewarding, matches will be less challenging and as such will leave you less forfilled. The up side is that you will win more and as a result you will feel the thrill of overcoming challenge more often but it will be less of a thrill.
2. You can play a low tier character. Choosing low means your matches will be more challenging and overcoming challenge will be more enjoyable. Matches will be more difficult but more fun, although you won't feel the thrill of overcoming adversity as much. If I win as Yoshi it is a far more forfilling feeling that if I had won with MetaKnight.
3. You can choose the character you like. This is my personal choice. At the end of the day, we are playing because we enjoy it, and as such we should choose characters that give us the right balance between the amount of challenge and the frequency of overcoming that challenege. That right balance is down to the player.

I chose Yoshi because he is my favourite character and I get the most enjoyment playing as him. I may not win as much, but the process of winning is more enjoyable than if I was playing a higher tier character. If you beat me as MetaKnight it ussually doesn't really mean that much, but when I beat a good MetaKnight it really means a lot and its a great feeling.
And enjoying the game isn't dependant on winning. Whether you win or lose you still had fun taking on that challenge and trying to best it, whether you succeeded or not.

Those of you who will argue that competetive play is solely about winning, and that the fun of the game is in winning alone... You ARE wrong. Im sorry but its the truth.
If you really feel this way trying playing a game that requires less effort to win, where you are almost garunteed to win. I can assure you it won't be as fun.

 

[Kage Me]

On a side note, you can't just expect to be good with a character because he's high tier. To be honest, I can never play characters I don't like well, and I suspect the same is true for most of the community. Pick your main (and secondaries) based on who you like, not on their tier.

 

[KRiMz0N]

green ace does pretty good in tournies, you're just a fail smasher

 

[DKKountry]

The old 'Why go low tier?' argument again...

I love how you recognize that the subject has been done to death but still proceed to write a wall of text about it.

JP

 

[Jupz]

I choose characters that are fun. I don't know if this is by coincedence or not, but most of them are high and top tiers. (except for bowser)

 

[auroreon]

I love how you recognize that the subject has been done to death but still proceed to write a wall of text about it.

JP

XD I knew someone would point that out lol.
I intend to just write a small comment but even when I've written my view a thousand times before... I just can't help going into a little rant. Its too tempting LOL!

 

[Ebonyks]

Just like other people have said in this thread, fun. If winning if your only objective, then picking MK or snake would be your best bet. But, if you genuinely like the way your low-tier main plays and have fun doing so, why should you switch?

 

[DKKountry]

XD I knew someone would point that out lol.
I intend to just write a small comment but even when I've written my view a thousand times before... I just can't help going into a little rant. Its too tempting LOL!

It's all good. You made good ponits after all.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Here is a post I made In the Peach area that might be fitting for this thread. If not then just move on with w/e is going on here.

"I don't agree at all. There is not one Peach alive that is just about the perfect Peach:

- knows all match ups in and out. ALL 100%

- Can handle all match ups and anything that the enemy does. Wether playing straight gay, campy, etc.

- Has good control of the character

- Knows how to save kill moves

- Can space very well and more than one way

- 100% balance in both aggressive and defensive game.

- Have a defensive game (more than 60% of Peach players are agressive)

- Have a ground game that is on point (more than 60% of peach players ground games are not all that. always floating and going for the dair and all that typical stuff.

- Knows how to camp or use turnips the smart way to get damage.

- Knows when to approach and how depending on character.

- Knows when to run and get space.

- lil to no habits.

- Have patients and dont get annoyed so easy or at all

- Creative/hard to read

- Quick reaction

- Techincal on point

- Smart recovery (like using the Peach bomber to get distance to the stage when high, that way you still have your second jump, float and toad. hardly see anyone doing this)

could be more with Peach but thats about all I got. Until all this happens at once, I can't buy this. cause no one as all of it down. Not even Azen and he was about the closet Peach To win a big tournament. So imagine if that man had it all down. He problaby take a big win.

One example is Peach in melee. Back then (even with that Dsmash) People were ****ting on Peach. That she was trash and getting tossed around by all these characters. No one hardly took her seriously. Then Mike G came along and just said "Give me the cube controller and let me show you boys something" After that it was over, as time passed, Mike G did some **** with Peach. Things people never expected from her or even dare try. He was seriously the creator and the father of Peach. After all this happen. People saw Peach in a different way. people wanted to play Peach more. Learn from Mike G. Do things he did with a character people did not take seriously. That man made a beautiful thing out of the character. He is my idol for a reason. I still watch his vieos till this day. Just looking and what he did back in the days was just too amazing.

Second example I have here is Zelda in brawl. In cause you have not noticed, Her tournament ranks in the USA are bad. There are not many Zelda players here that are doing thier thing with her in tournaments. And of course, this affects her on the tier list. And it gets hard to discuss match ups with Zelda at high level of play. She is hardly used like that Or placing far in tournaments. Now if more Zelda players started hacking it in tournaments and started placing well (dont even need to be top 7 for the point that zelda is right now) She would be understood more. People could see what she can really do in good hands. and she move up on the ranks and tier list. At this point she is not taken serioiusly (Melee Peach anyone?) But if she was to start doing well in tournaments, all that would change. She would have a high level of play understanding for lots of characters. And maybe even match up ratios would change. They could rise up or drop.

Also one other good example is Boss. Dude is raiseing up luigi in the tier list with how he is doing in tournaments. (mario too I think?) Luigi was underratted and not many people were doing much with luigi. Then Boss just came and step it up. Now look at luigi. Moving up and placing well in tournies. People are seeing him differently. And is not so underratted as he was before. Or at all.

So with that said, I can't just sit here and say she can't cause of all these reason I hear from people. I heard to many of them that I can't buy at all. Again, there is not one Peach alive right now that is on point with all on that list. And another thing is that people are scared of some characters or players. You play with fear you lose. You can't be having fear when playing someone or talk like this:

"Next tournament I belive I can go all Peach and win unless DSF or Ally show up"

"A tournament without Ally or M2K I am sure Peach could take it"

"Bann Meta and I could take one."

**** like that. No, klick rocks with this crap. People that say this are the ones that think She can't do it alone. Question time:

Player A is the best Peach player in the world. Player B is not. Player A fights a ROB at a tournament and Loses all the time. Player B fights that same ROB all the time and Beats him.

- Is ROB that dominate over Peach cause he lost to the best Peach player in the world?

- Is player B better than Player A?

- If Player A was to lose to characters all the time, does that Mean that character ***** Peach?

This is all something I'll let you boys answer. I'm not even gonna say anything on this. But this is a good example on how people see things and believe. So again, I am not gonna sit here with these reason I hear and think Peach can't do it. Hell no.

So yea Omni, I disagree with you."

So I guess the point to this for this thread is, don't let tiers or what people say get to you, or who you feel you should use in tournaments to him. You control tiers, tiers dont control you.

 

[Delvro]

High tier is nice but I don't really want to play a character that is dumb just because they are strong.

I can imagine a lot of people enjoying snake... but c'mon.... Dedede?

No offense to dedede players... different strokes I guess

 

[Coney]

I can imagine a lot of people enjoying snake... but c'mon.... Dedede?

I have genuinely no idea how people could enjoy fair WOP'ing someone from 0 - ~60% less than ftilting and nade camping.

Yeah I'm strawmanning, SO WHAT

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Not everyone is a disciple of David Sirlin like you. Please get off your high horses and stop telling people what they are and are not, just because they prefer a character other than those being used so often in tournaments. As for Yoshi, you must've missed the one livestream where Bwett beat DSF's Meta Knight on Smashville at WHOBO.

I actually dislike Sirlin simply because he is absolutely right, and nothing I can say will change that. He created the best possible competitive environment for video games, and it annoys me greatly with how distopian it seems to me.

The problem with Yoshi is that he appears to have less potential than MK - you simply cannot do as many effective tactics to win with Yoshi as with MK. A Yoshi beat a MK. That's fine, and doesn't matter at all. That Yoshi didn't win WHOBO.

After a long time, I came to accept that great players obviously cannot have any particular attachment to their characters other than what the character can do in itself. It's obvious because they all main MK, and there's no way everyone loved MK that much when he was announced. This is due to the fact that the player who plays a character other than the one they can naturally achieve their greatest potential with cannot achieve their greatest potential. These players can often play low tier characters well because they recognize there is nothing that makes winning with MK any better or worse than winning with Captain Falcon - it's a win either way, and they simple view captain falcon as a less optimal moveset and weight combination than MK.

 

[Crystanium]

I actually dislike Sirlin simply because he is absolutely right, and nothing I can say will change that. He created the best possible competitive environment for video games, and it annoys me greatly with how distopian it seems to me.

That doesn't change anything. You still act like the man. Maybe we low-tier mainers are scrubs.

The problem with Yoshi is that he appears to have less potential than MK - you simply cannot do as many effective tactics to win with Yoshi as with MK. A Yoshi beat a MK. That's fine, and doesn't matter at all. That Yoshi didn't win WHOBO.

All right, and that's fine. Who won, though? Not DSF. It was M2K, Dojo, then DSF. So why bother using Meta Knight? I think there are some people in the world who know they will not get first, but they like to see how far they can get with a low-tier. I find that more impressive than getting far with a top-tier like Meta Knight.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

That doesn't change anything. You still act like the man. Maybe we low-tier mainers are scrubs.



All right, and that's fine. Who won, though? Not DSF. It was M2K, Dojo, then DSF. So why bother using Meta Knight? I think there are some people in the world who know they will not get first, but they like to see how far they can get with a low-tier. I find that more impressive than getting far with a top-tier like Meta Knight.

Ah, but trying to accomplish something other than "play to win" isn't playing to win.

Impressive yes, but pointless. Maining a low tier character doesn't make you better than a person who can beat you with a high tier character. And it feeds into the illusion that your accomplishment actually adds to something more than it does.

A character is nothing more than static, unchangable data in a database. The character has no soul, no imporantace, the only significance of the character is emotional baggage the player brings to the character. There is nothing inherently impressive about winning with Yoshi. There is nothing inherently cheap about winning with MK. The option is to choose the data set that optimizes your chance to win, nothing more, nothing less.

Feel proud that your good at yoshi for all I care. I love being good at Jigglypuff myself. But I'm not going to pick jigglypuff for tournaments except against the most naive players (concerning Jigglypuff), because that would decrease my chances of winning. I do however use her because so few people in my immediate area know how to play against Jigglypuff, that it increases my odds of winning more than playing my main does.

I love beating the player by using their weaknesses. It adds a strategy element to the game.

 

[AgentJGV]

Simple as this, you play low tier characters because you like that playing style. I play Ganondorf because I love the way he feels. He's a tank. 3 hits can get you over 70%. I LOVE that. Would I lose to M2K and DSF and others? probably yes. But I wouldn't say it's because Their character was better. I would say it's because they themselves are better players. I see brawl as a battle of wits and the smarter player wins. How you do that is your choice.

Also, um, has no one here heard of Gimpyfish? =P

 

[Mecakoto]

Ah, but trying to accomplish something other than "play to win" isn't playing to win.

That depends on your exact definition of "playing to win." It does differ from person to person, you know. And what happened to "playing to win while having fun at the same time" in Brawl? That concept is what made Melee so fun for me, and for many others.

Impressive yes, but pointless. Maining a low tier character doesn't make you better than a person who can beat you with a high tier character. And it feeds into the illusion that your accomplishment actually adds to something more than it does.

No one said it did. I do believe that only bad players will get fed by an illusion such as what you said. I beat Meta with Luigi. So what? I'll face another one next round.

Winning a major tournament with C/D and below, however, IS an accomplishment to others that see it. If it is to you, or if it isn't, doesn't really matter, anyways.

A character is nothing more than static, unchangable data in a database. The character has no soul, no imporantace, the only significance of the character is emotional baggage the player brings to the character. There is nothing inherently impressive about winning with Yoshi. There is nothing inherently cheap about winning with MK. The option is to choose the data set that optimizes your chance to win, nothing more, nothing less.

You go by your idea of "impressive." If I see a match where Yoshi, Captain Falcon, or any other character with a decent disadvantage beat M2K in a real match, and M2K didn't make a mistake large enough to change what the outcome of the match would have been, I WOULD be impressed. Even so, it wouldn't make me play as Yoshi or Captain Falcon just because M2K was beaten by them. Had I had this mindset, I'd of stopped playing Luigi for another character long ago in Melee.

You also refer to winning as the only option in competition. Optimization. Optimization through a superior character is different then optimization with a specific character. The latter can easily beat the former. It is all a matter of the player skill.

Feel proud that your good at yoshi for all I care. I love being good at Jigglypuff myself. But I'm not going to pick jigglypuff for tournaments except against the most naive players (concerning Jigglypuff), because that would decrease my chances of winning. I do however use her because so few people in my immediate area know how to play against Jigglypuff, that it increases my odds of winning more than playing my main does.

You seem to only care about winning. It is evident in this section. You may feel happy when you win, but what if you got crushed by, because this seems to be commonly mentioned in this quote, Yoshi. You can say that it doesn't affect you at all. You can say that you just analyze the match and win next time, or you can say you DON'T lose against Yoshi. We both know that emotions do come into it and the latter is just false. (if it isn't for you, you haven't played a good Yoshi) Saying that it doesn't for anyone is to present a fallacy.

I love beating the player by using their weaknesses. It adds a strategy element to the game.

For once, I agree with you on something. The first part. It adds nothing to the strategy element, as that element of the strategy for Brawl has been in place since the first competitive game. It was, and is, in the first 2 smashes. It is also in Street Fighter. Hell, it is even in Mortal Kombat and Monopoly.


In summery, you act as though high-tier is the only way to go and winning is everything in competition. There was a comment about Peach earlier in this thread that, if everyone had this mindset that you have, would never have came to be. Just because a character is bad now does not mean that a character will always be bad and is hopeless.

If you MUST have an example of this, look at Boss. He has shown that Luigi has more options and fighting ability then is presented on the surface. All you need to do is dig deeper.

One more thing. Fun is a fac.... Never mind. You are a lost cause for this argument.

Don't be surprised if I don't respond. I'm sure any argument you bring against me is a simple, pointless "PLAYTOWINRAWR" argument, and I don't feel like waisting further time responding to such idiocy.

 

[Crystanium]

Ah, but trying to accomplish something other than "play to win" isn't playing to win.

All right, David Sirlin. Thank you for the tautological statement. For someone like me, who mains Samus, when I accomplish beating characters who are higher up in the tier list, I feel like a winner. I feel like I have accomplished something in the game. Like Mecakoto said, everyone has a different definition for what it means to "play to win." By the way, there are people who play for other reasons than to win. Recognition is one of the other things. I may not be winning tournaments, but I'd sure like to be known as one of the best Samus mains in Brawl.

The option is to choose the data set that optimizes your chance to win, nothing more, nothing less.

Then maybe you should use Meta Knight, or Snake, or Marth, instead of Lucario. Don't let any emotional baggage get in the way, such as Lucario feeling like he fits your play style.

 

[JOE!]

Halloween Captain, why are you maining Lucario? why not go MK like you preach?

also, whats with all the Yoshi hate? ****, he has a good (comparativley) Matchup vs Mk, and everyone really save Marf and G&W, and he just lacks players outside of like Bwett and Pride (i think) who go to tournies