Issues with Olimar's Pikmin recovery

[Hitaku]

First off, I am aware that most of you do not have the game yet, however, this thread is a question for those that do (input more then welcome from those that don't have it of course). I'm not sure if anyone else is experiencing this issue yet, but ledge recovery with Olimar seems to be very...bad. I don't personally play him but I have two friends who do. On recovery towards the ledge they try and throw pikmin at me when I am edge hogging, but if I just drop off and on to avoid them Olimar doesn't seem to have any chance of coming back (assuming I make it back to the ledge in time for the actual up+b...like 90% of the time).
To describe what actually happens, when throwing the Pikmin grapple towards the stage it hits me and knocks me off, but fails to grab onto the ledge after. This ledge recovery worries me for all Olimar players looking toward the competitive scene. Anyone have any ideas/methods of recovery to get around this yet?

 

[Pyr0]

DI closer to the edge before doing the Pikmin Rope (If even 1 Pikmin is too far, Whistle first while using DI to get closer to the edge).

 

[IllidR]

First off, I am aware that most of you do not have the game yet, however, this thread is a question for those that do (input more then welcome from those that don't have it of course). I'm not sure if anyone else is experiencing this issue yet, but ledge recovery with Olimar seems to be very...bad. I don't personally play him but I have two friends who do. On recovery towards the ledge they try and throw pikmin at me when I am edge hogging, but if I just drop off and on to avoid them Olimar doesn't seem to have any chance of coming back (assuming I make it back to the ledge in time for the actual up+b...like 90% of the time).
To describe what actually happens, when throwing the Pikmin grapple towards the stage it hits me and knocks me off, but fails to grab onto the ledge after. This ledge recovery worries me for all Olimar players looking toward the competitive scene. Anyone have any ideas/methods of recovery to get around this yet?

Did they try to whistle their Pikmin back to their sides before using the Up-B?

 

[Hitaku]

DI closer to the edge before doing the Pikmin Rope (If even 1 Pikmin is too far, Whistle first while using DI to get closer to the edge).

Did they try to whistle their Pikmin back to their sides before using the Up-B?

It seems to me that you two are thinking the issue is coming from the distance of his chain. The issue is that even if the chain is long enough, me being on the ledge alone will stop him from recovering. It will ONLY knock me off and not latch Olimar onto the ledge when the up+b hits. From our experience throwing pikmin while coming back on just isn't working seeing as I can dodge them.

 

[Zauron]

I've had no problems recovering with Olimar. Is this on maybe a custom stage that doesn't have edges set up right or something?

 

[Hitaku]

No, this is on the new Final Destination. They can use the Up+b fine (not an issue with angeling it), and the chain is long enough as well. Hell, I'm not even attacking him lol, I am just sitting there letting my body hang. Try and do your up+b when someone is edge hogging you. If you don't have another person to play with just use a second controller and move someone on to the ledge.

 

[Zauron]

Wait, edge hogging? Ahh, I see. You are saying someone else is hanging on the ledge so Olimar can't grab it. Sorry, I misread that as Edge Guarding not Edge Hogging in your original post.

Yeah, Edge Hogging = bad for Olimar. It may be as you said - the rope knocks the person off but doesn't necessarily grab the edge. Best bet is to get above the edge if someone is edge hogging. If not you are probably screwed. I think this applies to anyone that depends on tether recovery (ZSS, Ivysaur...was that it?).

I'll have to test this more when I get a chance, although its hard to convince people to stop just playing for fun to test stuff when so many want to try the game out .

 

[ZelgadisA027123]

It seems to me that you two are thinking the issue is coming from the distance of his chain. The issue is that even if the chain is long enough, me being on the ledge alone will stop him from recovering. It will ONLY knock me off and not latch Olimar onto the ledge when the up+b hits. From our experience throwing pikmin while coming back on just isn't working seeing as I can dodge them.

I got to play as Olimar for a few hours today, and I can say I can easily see this as being a problem. I can only think of one decent counter...

When you're moving through the air, the Pikmin string out behind you, and its the easiest time to see their order. You can then use air attacks to send the Pikmin used in the attack to the back of your queue (the fair is the fastest, so I used it to reorder my Pikmin as needed). If you have a purple Pikmin, hold onto it until you are at about a horizontal with the edge hogging opponent. If they don't avoid it, you'll hit them, and set yourself up in a position to spike them. Experienced players will avoid it, by getting back on the platform (presumably you are threatening enough with the purple that they could not avoid it unless they went back onto the platform). The opponent wouldn't be able to get back to the ledge before you can chain to it, letting you get back safely.

I can imagine this technique working reasonably well... If the opponent tried to attack you by jumping out of the edge hog, you could punish with your purple (or just up B through them to the edge - now that I think about it, they wouldn't be able to stop you from recovering by doing anything other than just hang there!). All that leaves you to, then, is making sure that you have a purple in your possession at all times. I'm imagining epic-level Olimar players keeping a purple with them the entire match, ensuring it's flowery ferocity throughout the match.

So anyways Hitaku, you said "throwing pikmin while coming back on" didn't work, but what do you think about the strat I outlined? I don't think throwing anything BUT a purple would do anything other than make Olimar's Pikmin Chain shorter, so...

But other than that one quirk, Olimar is a pimp! I didn't lose any match (1v1 or brawl) when I played as him tonight. No doubt in my mind, Olimar main right here, *****es!

 

[IllidR]

I got to play as Olimar for a few hours today, and I can say I can easily see this as being a problem. I can only think of one decent counter...

When you're moving through the air, the Pikmin string out behind you, and its the easiest time to see their order. You can then use air attacks to send the Pikmin used in the attack to the back of your queue (the fair is the fastest, so I used it to reorder my Pikmin as needed). If you have a purple Pikmin, hold onto it until you are at about a horizontal with the edge hogging opponent. If they don't avoid it, you'll hit them, and set yourself up in a position to spike them. Experienced players will avoid it, by getting back on the platform (presumably you are threatening enough with the purple that they could not avoid it unless they went back onto the platform). The opponent wouldn't be able to get back to the ledge before you can chain to it, letting you get back safely.

I can imagine this technique working reasonably well... If the opponent tried to attack you by jumping out of the edge hog, you could punish with your purple (or just up B through them to the edge - now that I think about it, they wouldn't be able to stop you from recovering by doing anything other than just hang there!). All that leaves you to, then, is making sure that you have a purple in your possession at all times. I'm imagining epic-level Olimar players keeping a purple with them the entire match, ensuring it's flowery ferocity throughout the match.

So anyways Hitaku, you said "throwing pikmin while coming back on" didn't work, but what do you think about the strat I outlined? I don't think throwing anything BUT a purple would do anything other than make Olimar's Pikmin Chain shorter, so...

But other than that one quirk, Olimar is a pimp! I didn't lose any match (1v1 or brawl) when I played as him tonight. No doubt in my mind, Olimar main right here, *****es!

Your plan does solve like a very good fix, and I really like it. However, there may be some problems present in it that you may have overlooked. Say if you only had one Purple Pikmin at the end of line, how fast can you shuffle through your Pikmin to get to the purple, I'd imagine it'd take a good deal of time to get to that purple, so it may be a problem in hits where you aren't launched as high.

Also, you said they'd be fine if they avoid it by jumping to the stage. But what if they simply dropped from the ledge once the purple was coming and jumped back immediately to use the invincibility frames to avoid the purple, that'd be a pretty big problem. So how could you fix these things?

 

[Pyr0]

DI Closer to the stage

 

[IllidR]

DI Closer to the stage

That's not always the issue. If you can't DI back to the platform you can easily be edge-hogged and that's what we're trying to find a fix for.

 

[Zauron]

It may just be an Olimar weakness - many characters in Melee had recoveries that were easy to gimp, but they made up for it with other strengths (Falco, for instance).

Fortunately, DI is very powerful in Brawl, so if you DI upwards, most of the time you'll have the option to try landing on the ledge directly or going beneath it and using your Up+B to recover, and can pick the best way to go for the situation, so its not as much of a weakness as it would have been in Melee.

 

[HeroXL]

It may just be an Olimar weakness - many characters in Melee had recoveries that were easy to gimp, but they made up for it with other strengths (Falco, for instance).

Fortunately, DI is very powerful in Brawl, so if you DI upwards, most of the time you'll have the option to try landing on the ledge directly or going beneath it and using your Up+B to recover, and can pick the best way to go for the situation, so its not as much of a weakness as it would have been in Melee.

You just took the words right out of my mouth bro. Congratulations fellow olimar fans, we just found an Olimar weakness. However, that does not mean he will not be a powerful force in brawl. Falco ***** in melee even though he had a bad recovery. We shall try to come up with ways around it but I just want to say right here and now that if we don't its cool. Let it not discourage us.

 

[IllidR]

You just took the words right out of my mouth bro. Congratulations fellow olimar fans, we just found an Olimar weakness. However, that does not mean he will not be a powerful force in brawl. Falco ***** in melee even though he had a bad recovery. We shall try to come up with ways around it but I just want to say right here and now that if we don't its cool. Let it not discourage us.

I have a theory, now it may seem farfetched... but just sit with me through it.

Now, we don't want to get knocked off the stage because of bad recovery right? Well, what if.. we just prevent ourselves from getting knocked off all together? I know what you're saying, "But IllidR, that's impossible, you'll be knocked off sooner or later!" Well my friends, there's this new thing I learned about, from the Dojo. It's called shielding and rolling! Yes! The indefeatable strategy, what can an opponent do when we are shielded. Can't hit us, hah, our shield stops all damage. You think you're going to grab us huh? Well I've got news for you.. ROLL! Wait a minute, what do we do if our shield begins to shrink, we run to the other side of the stage and just like that BAM! Shield regenerated. It's flawless, and I suggest this be the universal strategy for Olimar players. For the greater glory!

 

[DBurke]

Your plan does solve like a very good fix, and I really like it. However, there may be some problems present in it that you may have overlooked. Say if you only had one Purple Pikmin at the end of line, how fast can you shuffle through your Pikmin to get to the purple, I'd imagine it'd take a good deal of time to get to that purple, so it may be a problem in hits where you aren't launched as high.

Also, you said they'd be fine if they avoid it by jumping to the stage. But what if they simply dropped from the ledge once the purple was coming and jumped back immediately to use the invincibility frames to avoid the purple, that'd be a pretty big problem. So how could you fix these things?

I haven't tested it, but I'd say if you were rather high above the stage you could get about three forward smashes in before you become level with the edge. However, Olimar's down-b rotates the pikimin in groups of color (assuming you've already whistle the correct amount of times to put them in order by color). If you had them properly sorted, and depending on the number of different colored pikimin you have in your line, you can sort through your whole line very quickly. This could be a possibility in some cases.

The fact that someone can just drop and grab the ledge again to give himself invincibility frames is something that any and all characters have to live with so it doesn't gimp Olimar per say, but is still a problem and probably slightly more so for Olimar.

You just took the words right out of my mouth bro. Congratulations fellow olimar fans, we just found an Olimar weakness. However, that does not mean he will not be a powerful force in brawl. Falco ***** in melee even though he had a bad recovery. We shall try to come up with ways around it but I just want to say right here and now that if we don't its cool. Let it not discourage us.

While it's true Falco had a bad recovery, Olimar has no chance of getting onto the stage if he's at or below ledge level when someone is edge hogging. Falco also could knock people off the edge with his up-B and still grab the ledge afterwards, Olimar cannot. It's a deadly gimp to say the least.

I have a theory, now it may seem farfetched... but just sit with me through it.

Now, we don't want to get knocked off the stage because of bad recovery right? Well, what if.. we just prevent ourselves from getting knocked off all together? I know what you're saying, "But IllidR, that's impossible, you'll be knocked off sooner or later!" Well my friends, there's this new thing I learned about, from the Dojo. It's called shielding and rolling! Yes! The indefeatable strategy, what can an opponent do when we are shielded. Can't hit us, hah, our shield stops all damage. You think you're going to grab us huh? Well I've got news for you.. ROLL! Wait a minute, what do we do if our shield begins to shrink, we run to the other side of the stage and just like that BAM! Shield regenerated. It's flawless, and I suggest this be the universal strategy for Olimar players. For the greater glory!

Sweet! We can just turtle the whole match. Imagine how much fun that would be!

 

[Hitaku]

So anyways Hitaku, you said "throwing pikmin while coming back on" didn't work, but what do you think about the strat I outlined?

Sadly the work around I use for that strat is what IllidR pointed out. I hop off the ledge and use the invincibility frames. Its better then nothing though, and its good that people are throwing out ideas like that =).

It may just be an Olimar weakness - many characters in Melee had recoveries that were easy to gimp, but they made up for it with other strengths (Falco, for instance).

Fortunately, DI is very powerful in Brawl, so if you DI upwards, most of the time you'll have the option to try landing on the ledge directly or going beneath it and using your Up+B to recover, and can pick the best way to go for the situation, so its not as much of a weakness as it would have been in Melee.

While Falco had a bad recovery in Melee, he still had more options then Olimar as far as recovering. DI is a huge factor in brawl, but there are still going to be times where it won't save you. My intention when saying this is not to shoot down the positive outlook that you are having, I'm just seeing this as a very large issue for future competitive players. If someone could form a set system for recovery that worked around this issue, that would be great ^^.

I have a theory, now it may seem farfetched... but just sit with me through it.

Now, we don't want to get knocked off the stage because of bad recovery right? Well, what if.. we just prevent ourselves from getting knocked off all together? I know what you're saying, "But IllidR, that's impossible, you'll be knocked off sooner or later!" Well my friends, there's this new thing I learned about, from the Dojo. It's called shielding and rolling! Yes! The indefeatable strategy, what can an opponent do when we are shielded. Can't hit us, hah, our shield stops all damage. You think you're going to grab us huh? Well I've got news for you.. ROLL! Wait a minute, what do we do if our shield begins to shrink, we run to the other side of the stage and just like that BAM! Shield regenerated. It's flawless, and I suggest this be the universal strategy for Olimar players. For the greater glory!

At the moment thats really the best game plan I think...as sad as that is to say lol. You will also be able to counter pick stages without ledges in tournament play, so that will help with some matches. To be honest it kinda makes me mad that Sakurai would overlook something this huge with tether recovery when he purposely took the effort to make it better with the easier homing.

 

[ZelgadisA027123]

I have a theory, now it may seem farfetched... but just sit with me through it.

Now, we don't want to get knocked off the stage because of bad recovery right? Well, what if.. we just prevent ourselves from getting knocked off all together? I know what you're saying, "But IllidR, that's impossible, you'll be knocked off sooner or later!" Well my friends, there's this new thing I learned about, from the Dojo. It's called shielding and rolling! Yes! The indefeatable strategy, what can an opponent do when we are shielded. Can't hit us, hah, our shield stops all damage. You think you're going to grab us huh? Well I've got news for you.. ROLL! Wait a minute, what do we do if our shield begins to shrink, we run to the other side of the stage and just like that BAM! Shield regenerated. It's flawless, and I suggest this be the universal strategy for Olimar players. For the greater glory!

lol wut

Well anyways IllidR, about your response to my strat. If they dropped to avoid the purple, you could up B through them and grab the ledge. Olimar's up B is very fast, and there is very little lag off of his Pikmin Toss. I have no worries about being able to Pikmin Chain to the edge at the slightest sign of the opponent dropping. If you don't die outright, then chances are you will be able to DI significantly close to the stage - this is just a general Brawl characteristic. Because you are so close, you might have the advantage with your Pikmin toss - if they want to dodge it, they will have to do so at the last second, and you will be able to Pikmin Chain the ledge. What do you guys think?

 

[DBurke]

lol wut

Well anyways IllidR, about your response to my strat. If they dropped to avoid the purple, you could up B through them and grab the ledge. Olimar's up B is very fast, and there is very little lag off of his Pikmin Toss. I have no worries about being able to Pikmin Chain to the edge at the slightest sign of the opponent dropping. If you don't die outright, then chances are you will be able to DI significantly close to the stage - this is just a general Brawl characteristic. Because you are so close, you might have the advantage with your Pikmin toss - if they want to dodge it, they will have to do so at the last second, and you will be able to Pikmin Chain the ledge. What do you guys think?

The amount of time it takes to regrab the ledge is really short. The timing that would require is kinda pushing it... :/ Also, the timing the defensive ledge hogger is dealing with involves them dropping and regrabbing the edge before the said Olimar reaches him. Making Olimar get to the ledge faster as to screw the ledge hoggers timing up isn't possible.

 

[IllidR]

lol wut

Well anyways IllidR, about your response to my strat. If they dropped to avoid the purple, you could up B through them and grab the ledge. Olimar's up B is very fast, and there is very little lag off of his Pikmin Toss. I have no worries about being able to Pikmin Chain to the edge at the slightest sign of the opponent dropping. If you don't die outright, then chances are you will be able to DI significantly close to the stage - this is just a general Brawl characteristic. Because you are so close, you might have the advantage with your Pikmin toss - if they want to dodge it, they will have to do so at the last second, and you will be able to Pikmin Chain the ledge. What do you guys think?

Well that might work, however you'd have to have such precision it'd be rediculous because with characters snapping to the ledge they grab it very quickly. So you'll have such a small time-frame to have your Pikmin Chain grab that open ledge.

Definitely a weakness unless we can figure something out.

 

[Rhyme]

Um...-marks down tally on piece of paper- Does anyone here listen to Gimpyfish?

Falco had a terrible recovery and he was top-tier in Melee. Falcon's recovery sucked *** and he was high tier. Mewtwo's recovery was amazing yet he was sucky. Point is that a character's recovery ability can sometimes be used as a balancing technique. Mewtwo struggled on the stage but could almost always return to it. Falco and Falcon ***** on the stage but often couldn't reach it, or would get edge- guarded/hogged easily. Imagine if Falco or Falcon had Mewtwo's recovery? They'd be unstopable. People have had nothing put praise pouring from their ***** since day one about Olimar's range, knockback, speed, camping ability, awesomeness...it was only a matter of time before we discovered his weakness.

And, you know what else? Here's the clincher: IT'S A DARN WEAKNESS! Edge-hoggable recovery sucks, but it's there for a reason and you can't change it. There's no way that Sakurai overlooked something so elementary. All characters have weaknesses that you cannot fix, but you can do your best to avoid encountering them and you can do certain things to work around them.

Haha, and I just remembered something. Anyone else recall that list that appeared saying something to the effect of 'this is the damage it takes before this character is KOed by Mario's Fsmash'? I took one look at that list, noticed Ivysaur at the bottom and went "Oh sh;t, Ivysaur's top tier.". I know nobody believes me, but now we've got three supposedly broken characters who all seem to have crap recoveries and it just makes sense.

I don't know...don't listen to me...I've gotten seven hours of sleep over the last three days, I could be making all this up. &_&

 

[Hitaku]

Um...-marks down tally on piece of paper- Does anyone here listen to Gimpyfish?

Falco had a terrible recovery and he was top-tier in Melee. Falcon's recovery sucked *** and he was high tier. Mewtwo's recovery was amazing yet he was sucky. Point is that a character's recovery ability can sometimes be used as a balancing technique. Mewtwo struggled on the stage but could almost always return to it. Falco and Falcon ***** on the stage but often couldn't reach it, or would get edge- guarded/hogged easily. Imagine if Falco or Falcon had Mewtwo's recovery? They'd be unstopable. People have had nothing put praise pouring from their ***** since day one about Olimar's range, knockback, speed, camping ability, awesomeness...it was only a matter of time before we discovered his weakness.

And, you know what else? Here's the clincher: IT'S A DARN WEAKNESS! Edge-hoggable recovery sucks, but it's there for a reason and you can't change it. There's no way that Sakurai overlooked something so elementary. All characters have weaknesses that you cannot fix, but you can do your best to avoid encountering them and you can do certain things to work around them.

Haha, and I just remembered something. Anyone else recall that list that appeared saying something to the effect of 'this is the damage it takes before this character is KOed by Mario's Fsmash'? I took one look at that list, noticed Ivysaur at the bottom and went "Oh sh;t, Ivysaur's top tier.". I know nobody believes me, but now we've got three supposedly broken characters who all seem to have crap recoveries and it just makes sense.

I don't know...don't listen to me...I've gotten seven hours of sleep over the last three days, I could be making all this up. &_&

First off I was never saying that this character was bad...I was asking people if they could think of a work around to this issue. Second off, the recovery of Falco and others was bad...but it could still land. In most cases, people had to do more then just short hop on the ledge a few times. As far as listening to Gimpyfish, I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to.

Now, gong back to when you said that this wasn't something Sakurai would overlook, Melee was not perfectly balanced and the same will go for Brawl. Why is the game not balanced? Because some characters have better moves/are faster/can combo better. I am sure that every old school Yoshie player can step up and talk about how much better they would be with an Up+b. All of these things that make characters worse then others are all things that were overlooked. I'm not saying that this is going to make Olimar bad...I'm just saying that it isn't going to help. A lot of you are referring to this as his weakness...and I hate to say it but that isn't going to be the only one. I think we can all agree that the fewer we have the better.

Less posts regarding Olimar being good regardless and more posts of people trying to find a solution please. I know that its probably going to end up as something we just need to deal with, but you never know. Its good to stay positive.

 

[ElectroBlade]

Oh no! I planned to main him!

 

[Zauron]

Oh no! I planned to main him!

Seriously, don't let this stop you. With Brawl's physics, the times I actually NEEDED to use an up+B to recover and someone was in a position to edge hog me have been very few. Just DI up. Olimar is pretty heavy, but even still, with the way Brawl works, the vast majority of the time I either had plenty of space to just land on the ledge and only used the Up+B to avoid edge guard tactics, or I was already dead anyway. Brawl doesn't have insane recovery needs like Melee - even though she can, I doubt a Samus player would ever NEED to use bomb jumps to recover - if she was far enough away she'd need them, she was far enough away she already died.

Its like everyone in Brawl is a Melee version of Peach, Samus, Jiggly, etc. - if you don't kill them outright, they ARE going to get back the vast majority of the time, and often without even actually needing to use a recovery move.

Also, something you should all know - the Up+B also has Olimar do a short hop up, like the Ice Climber's Up+B when there's only one of them, so you can use that to land on the ledge if you can't make it with the rope itself.

Other than this weakness Olimar is awesome, he's heavier than he seems he would be and plays such a good defensive sniping game with awesome grab options and airials and such that this problem seems a fair counter balance to me.

 

[Hitaku]

Oh no! I planned to main him!

I agree that this is no reason to not main him if you were planning on it. He is great in lots of ways and let alone his performance, he is very fun to play as. If you wanted to main him before hearing this, in my opinion, stick with him and just work around this. =)

 

[elwordo310]

lol wut

Well anyways IllidR, about your response to my strat. If they dropped to avoid the purple, you could up B through them and grab the ledge. Olimar's up B is very fast, and there is very little lag off of his Pikmin Toss. I have no worries about being able to Pikmin Chain to the edge at the slightest sign of the opponent dropping. If you don't die outright, then chances are you will be able to DI significantly close to the stage - this is just a general Brawl characteristic. Because you are so close, you might have the advantage with your Pikmin toss - if they want to dodge it, they will have to do so at the last second, and you will be able to Pikmin Chain the ledge. What do you guys think?

exactly what i was thinking, just Pikmen toss and then up b. Simple stratagy, kinda like it that way cause it makes olimar a fun character to get used to. im predicting that he is the kind of char that u have to strategize with.

 

[DBurke]

exactly what i was thinking, just Pikmen toss and then up b. Simple stratagy, kinda like it that way cause it makes olimar a fun character to get used to. im predicting that he is the kind of char that u have to strategize with.

Please read the whole forum before responding. It's not that long.

 

[Rhyme]

First off I was never saying that this character was bad...I was asking people if they could think of a work around to this issue. Second off, the recovery of Falco and others was bad...but it could still land. In most cases, people had to do more then just short hop on the ledge a few times. As far as listening to Gimpyfish, I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to.

Now, gong back to when you said that this wasn't something Sakurai would overlook, Melee was not perfectly balanced and the same will go for Brawl. Why is the game not balanced? Because some characters have better moves/are faster/can combo better. I am sure that every old school Yoshie player can step up and talk about how much better they would be with an Up+b. All of these things that make characters worse then others are all things that were overlooked. I'm not saying that this is going to make Olimar bad...I'm just saying that it isn't going to help. A lot of you are referring to this as his weakness...and I hate to say it but that isn't going to be the only one. I think we can all agree that the fewer we have the better.

Less posts regarding Olimar being good regardless and more posts of people trying to find a solution please. I know that its probably going to end up as something we just need to deal with, but you never know. Its good to stay positive.

I never said Olimar was bad either, I just said that recovery was his weakness, and that gimpable recovery was probably due to his being an unfair character otherwise.

The Gimpyfish thing is a video he put out about how you need to accept your character's weaknesses to reach a higher level of play...you should definitely give it a listen sometime on Youtube.

That example about Yoshi doesn't make much sense. He was so darned heavy while using the second jump that as long as it could reach the stage, it was like an auto-recovery. Sure Melee's alternate physics and attack priorities changed that, but Yoshi was VERY balanced in Smash64.

And you're right, it's not gonna be his only weakess, just as recovery wasn't Falcon's only weakness...I just think that Olimar's recovery will be the most significant weakess by a wide margin.

Well...recover low. If you recover low then you can second jump Fair at your opponent when they're on the ledge, forcing them to get off of it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, think Melee Marth using his Fair to chase away edgehoggers and you should get the picture. Other than the Pikmin toss, that's the only way I can think to get someone off an edge right now.

 

[DBurke]

I never said Olimar was bad either, I just said that recovery was his weakness, and that gimpable recovery was probably due to his being an unfair character otherwise.

The Gimpyfish thing is a video he put out about how you need to accept your character's weaknesses to reach a higher level of play...you should definitely give it a listen sometime on Youtube.

That example about Yoshi doesn't make much sense. He was so darned heavy while using the second jump that as long as it could reach the stage, it was like an auto-recovery. Sure Melee's alternate physics and attack priorities changed that, but Yoshi was VERY balanced in Smash64.

And you're right, it's not gonna be his only weakess, just as recovery wasn't Falcon's only weakness...I just think that Olimar's recovery will be the most significant weakess by a wide margin.

Olimar has a weakness. You should accept his weakness, blah blah blah blah. Do you have any other obvious, uninteresting and otherwise completely useless things to say? Yes, it's a weakness. We understand that. But to accept it is not to just give up on finding a work around. Let's say we did accept it and this thread was never created, wouldn't we feel like *******es when someone found a really good work around. If you're not going to be constructive then don't post please. You can complain about people not "accepting" his weakness in your own thread.

Well...recover low. If you recover low then you can second jump Fair at your opponent when they're on the ledge, forcing them to get off of it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, think Melee Marth using his Fair to chase away edgehoggers and you should get the picture. Other than the Pikmin toss, that's the only way I can think to get someone off an edge right now.

Had a certain someone read the thread he/she would have noticed that this suggestion was already given and that it was found to be marginally effective.

 

[ElectroBlade]

Ah alright, thanks guys! ^-^

 

[Rhyme]

Olimar has a weakness. You should accept his weakness, blah blah blah blah. You can complain about people not "accepting" his weakness in your own thread.

Had a certain someone read the thread he/she would have noticed that this suggestion was already given and that it was found to be marginally effective.

Blah blah blah blah and all that good stuff. I'm trying to be constructive. Do you believe that you can increase the gas milage of your car? How about convincing your boss to pay you more than seven dollars an hour? Can you get home from work late and find an easier way of getting up for an eight am class? Chances are that you cannot do any of these things with any measurable success, and that's the exact point that I'm getting at. Some characters have faults which you MUST accept because there is NO way of working around it. Bowser's slow, Diddy has no kill moves, Olimar gets gimped on recovery - it's there for a reason and not everything can be fixed, that is my perspective.

I have logical input, whether or not you choose to accept it is another story entirely.

And please do not make assumptions about what I have and have not done. The thread was a little over one page in length when I first read through it, and I have read what each and every person before me in this thread has posted.

 

[Hitaku]

The Gimpyfish thing is a video he put out about how you need to accept your character's weaknesses to reach a higher level of play...you should definitely give it a listen sometime on Youtube.

I know all about accepting a characters weakness, I mained Mewtwo for a good period of time in Melee. However, I also think that its good to try and find ways around those weaknesses.

That example about Yoshi doesn't make much sense. He was so darned heavy while using the second jump that as long as it could reach the stage, it was like an auto-recovery. Sure Melee's alternate physics and attack priorities changed that, but Yoshi was VERY balanced in Smash64.

The example that I was trying to make was regarding Melee when he didn't have this auto recovery you mentioned. I never really played Smash64 so I don't know much. The comparison that I was trying to make was how in Melee Yoshi had a bad recovery, one that could have used an Up+B. If Yoshi was balanced in 64 that tells me even more that his recovery in Melee was something that was overlooked.

Well...recover low. If you recover low then you can second jump Fair at your opponent when they're on the ledge, forcing them to get off of it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, think Melee Marth using his Fair to chase away edgehoggers and you should get the picture. Other than the Pikmin toss, that's the only way I can think to get someone off an edge right now.

I think thats the best bet atm. This Air Dodge DI is going to help a lot also. Not sure how many of you have seen that. If you air dodge with your DI in brawl i seems to DI you better. The more we have to keep Olimar on the stage the better.

NO way of working around it.

All I can say regarding that is...that is why this thread was created. Each player has a weakness but there are things that help with these weaknesses. I created this thread to see how other Olimar players handled this issue, I wasn't trying to say that he was a gimp character. =P

 

[DBurke]

Blah blah blah blah and all that good stuff. I'm trying to be constructive. Do you believe that you can increase the gas milage of your car? How about convincing your boss to pay you more than seven dollars an hour? Can you get home from work late and find an easier way of getting up for an eight am class?

Funny that all of those examples are things that are throughly understood by the populous. Got any examples that aren't fully understood? Because unless you don't, you're point is irrelevant. I understand that you're all for just accepting his weakness. Then go accept it; elsewhere and take your pessimistic attitude with you. We're going to make effort to study other possibilities. Have fun, k thx bye.

 

[Rhyme]

All I can say regarding that is...that is why this thread was created. Each player has a weakness but there are things that help with these weaknesses. I created this thread to see how other Olimar players handled this issue, I wasn't trying to say that he was a gimp character. =P

Alright well...I've said how I feel about the weakness and what compensations might be, I've offered what little help I could (which apparently has already been offered), so I guess the only thing left for me to do is stop posting the same old crap and clogging your thread before you become POed? : )

Funny that all of those examples are things that are throughly understood by the populous.

Olimar's poop recovery is well-understood by the "populus", therefore your own demeaning "argument" works against you.

 

[icy_icicle]

Ugh, half this thread is stupid arguing. Get over it.

 

[AlbelsPanties]

^This is a video game message board. Arguing is what we do best.

 

[aleps]

I have an idea, I don't know if it will work but someone with the game may try it.

First we should know if the Pikmin chain can hit an enemy edgehogging without the invincibility frame AND grab the edge. Also how long does that invincibility frame lasts.

Now my idea: There may be a move that makes Olimar fall slower (like Fox DB) so you use it and the invincibility frame of the enemy ends, so you can use UB to grab the edge.

And according to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POUo-905Zuk&feature=user edgerolling is out, look a 4:12 and 5:50. So this won't be a problem.

Hope it works.

 

[icy_icicle]

There are better things to argue about than the spelling of populus, which is a plant genus by the way :D

 

[DBurke]

I have an idea, I don't know if it will work but someone with the game may try it.

First we should know if the Pikmin chain can hit an enemy edgehogging without the invincibility frame AND grab the edge. Also how long does that invincibility frame lasts.

Now my idea: There may be a move that makes Olimar fall slower (like Fox DB) so you use it and the invincibility frame of the enemy ends, so you can use UB to grab the edge.

And according to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POUo-905Zuk&feature=user edgerolling is out, look a 4:12 and 5:50. So this won't be a problem.

Hope it works.

For the love of god and all that is holy, read the whole thread... Please.

 

[DBurke]

There are better things to argue about than the spelling of populus, which is a plant genus by the way :D

Stop posting. You're not adding anything. If you have an idea that wasn't already posted, post it. Otherwise no one in this thread cares about the spelling of populous, which I spelled correctly. Keep your opinions of anything not relevant to the topic of this thread to yourself.

 

[Hitaku]

I have an idea, I don't know if it will work but someone with the game may try it.

First we should know if the Pikmin chain can hit an enemy edgehogging without the invincibility frame AND grab the edge. Also how long does that invincibility frame lasts.

Now my idea: There may be a move that makes Olimar fall slower (like Fox DB) so you use it and the invincibility frame of the enemy ends, so you can use UB to grab the edge.

And according to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POUo-905Zuk&feature=user edgerolling is out, look a 4:12 and 5:50. So this won't be a problem.

Hope it works.

When someone is edge hogging you even without invincibility frames your Up+B won't catch onto the ledge. It will just knock them off and you will keep falling. The invincibility frames were an issue for people who would try to align a purple pikmin to the front in hopes of using it as an attack before getting people back (to get them off the ledge). The invincibility frames lasts long enough to dodge any pikmin that you could throw. =/

As far as Olimar falling slower, sadly he has no such move.