'Item Standard Play': A New Way to Play Competitive Smash (Read Link BEFORE Posting)

[Jack Kieser]

The 'Item Standard Play' project is a unique project that aims to do many things, among which the creation of a unified, accepted, and balanced listing of items, establishing a standard for tournament organizers to use when creating item-based tournaments, and creating a scene that current casual players can go to introduce themselves to tournament play without having to abandon all of the conventions of play they are so used to.

If you are a casual player looking to enter the tournament scene, this project is for you!

If you are a current traditional-style tournament player who is always the target of 'loltourney***s' comments from scrubby posters, prove the stereotype wrong by participating in ISP events! (Yes, that is a tongue-in-cheek joke)

We invite everyone on Smashboards, regardless of who you are, to come join the 'Item Standard Play' project. You can find the official project thread at:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012

Please read the OP in that thread before posting; there is important information contained there that explains, in detail, the project.

We look forward to Smashing with you all!

[NOTE: Yes, this is the formerly-named 'Casual Competition League'; the former name held too many stigmas to it, so we came up with a better (and more accurate) one. I decided to replace the thread that was already on this board to avoid confusion.]

 

[Umpy]

what a wonderful idea....

too bad items never make a game balanced, ever. times 2.

you epicly fail

wow the smash boards has gone bad. horrinlely bad.

 

[Blackshadow]

Well at least this is keeping the item supporters from continually making threads about normal tournament play having items. Maybe then we can actually hold a tactical discussion in Tactical Discussion for once >_>

 

[Jack Kieser]

what a wonderful idea....

too bad items never make a game balanced, ever. times 2.

you epicly fail

wow the smash boards has gone bad. horrinlely bad.

Yeah, well, that's certainly not what the science/numbers have been telling us so far, but that's cool. Everyone has an opinion, and I'll certainly respect even an opposing opinion.

 

[Taymond]

Well, Jack, I know you don't usually get the positive response you ought to when you post in this section, but I just want to let you know that it's good to see someone taking initiative in the matter. Personally, I prefer the traditional tournament rules, but I know that there are plenty of players who want something just like this. Your community is already quite large, if I remember correct, and it's good that there's someone willing to put in the work to organize something like this.

Kudos to you.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

If this idea doesn't get the support it should, it only confirms that those "casual elitists" ceaselessly posting their rabid disdain for tournament goers and similar anti-competitive play sentiments don't really feel left out of the tournament scene because of the standard rules, and they don't even care about tournaments at all, but rather are bitter about having been beaten by people better than them because they have taken the time required to get better. I always found their hate irrational, since you never even see those types of people at tournaments, and that being the case, why would they complain about rules that only have to be followed at tournaments or by people hoping to get better for tournaments? I always had a hunch it was all just a way to voice frustration and deep-seated feelings of inadequacy, and that any sort of action to create a community for themselves was not even on their radar.

Now, I'm not saying everyone who supports items for tournaments are casual elitists, but if the latter actually had any interest in creating a scene for tournaments held based on rules that fit their wishes, then the inverse should be true.

I think this is a good initiative, and anyone who has complained about items not being allowed in standard competitive play should actively support it, because the alternative is everyone finding out how phony, irrational, meaningless, and infantile their complaints have been.

I don't have any real interest in this, items in the smash series actually bore me, but I think this should get the push it needs from those unhappy with current standard rules. SWF needs more "anti-tourney***" topics like Gwyneth Paltrow needs a dialysis machine, and people would have no reason (not that there ever was) to make those.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Thank you for your support, guys; we really appreciate it. And, your holiness, I completely agree with you about support from 'casual elitists' and 'scrubs'; I anticipate that once we really get going and start holding tournaments, we'll see who really believed item play deserved a chance and who just liked to start flame wars.

 

[UnicornTears]

no no, no no no, no no, no no no.

on a more important note:
hey hey you you
i don't like your girlfriend
no way no way
i think you need a new one

 

[ShortAssassin]

Glad to see something good came of that "Smash Balls in Competitive Play?" thread. Good luck, Jack!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Quick update here: just posted a new 1v1 test. Overall, a pretty good test... just... don't use Marth to test if you plan on it.

I also posted some testing documents in the news post to help other people get started. They're really useful, so check 'em out.

 

[Taymond]

no no, no no no, no no, no no no.

on a more important note:
hey hey you you
i don't like your girlfriend
no way no way
i think you need a new one

She's a thief. Rubinoos did it first.

 

[J0K3R]

The only item i approve of is the beam sword. So pimpin....

 

[Christova]

I don't quite understand why anyone would want to use items in a tournament. It would just turn the game into an item fest. I would play in that kind of tournament, but that's mostly because I've been doing tourneys since Melee and items were always a no-no. But if you want to, more power to you.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't quite understand why anyone would want to use items in a tournament. It would just turn the game into an item fest. I would play in that kind of tournament, but that's mostly because I've been doing tourneys since Melee and items were always a no-no. But if you want to, more power to you.

Not really; all of the tests we've done so far have been on low spawn rate. I don't think anyone ever really expected to go past that expressly so that matches didn't become centered on waiting for items. With a low rate, items come up enough so that the match doesn't become stale, but not enough to seriously decide the outcome of the match.

 

[thesage]

and items were always a no-no

Items were on in melee tournaments for the first 3 years. >.>

 

[PerpetualDusk]

The first thing I would like to say is that I, personally, prefer playing with items off. I am glad that they are off for tournaments and I would not have it any other way. That being said...
I think this is an amazing idea.
Like I said, I prefer having items off, but if experience and knowledgeable players go through the item list and determine which items are broken and which are acceptable, I believe it would be possible to have balanced play with items. As long as things that are overpowered are turned off, and the spawn rate is low, then it is unlikely that any one player will be able to unfairly beat the other based on item luck.
Now before everyone calls me an idiot, I would once again like to point out that I agree that items should be turned off, and that play is more balanced that way.
But, with an item list like this project seeks to make, the unfairness of items could be diminished to a level that would be acceptable for play that is decently close to standard tournament rules. Think of it kind of like low-tier matches, but the modification being "items allowed" instead of "lower tiers". The precedent has already been set by low tier tournaments. They exist to give play time to characters that don't see much. This is the same idea: to give play time, on a more professional level, to an aspect of the game that doesn't see much. No ones advocating (no one smart, anyways) that we should replace the accepted tournament rules with ones that allow items. The idea is to set up a rule system that allows them, just for the sake of enjoying playing with them.
If the items allowed are fairly un-broken, and they don't appear much, then they shouldn't garner any one player much of an advantage. Besides, reacting to, and utilizing items effectively is a skill like any other; if both players posses that skill then items would simply add another, fun dynamic to the game under a revised list.

 

[Sensai]

Read the link.

Items in this game (THIS game, not Smash, but Brawl specifically) seem to be way too overpowered and, in my opinion, just don't really work. Even my roommates, who don't play competitively, hate the items due to their craziness.

That being said, more power to you. The post on that given link was very professional and it seems that you are well on your way to making a viable alternative to straight up tourney play.

No one should tell other people how to or how not to play, so play on.

 

[adumbrodeus]

what a wonderful idea....

too bad items never make a game balanced, ever. times 2.

you epicly fail

wow the smash boards has gone bad. horrinlely bad.

The idea is to create an alternative format that sacrifices as little of the skill factor as possible but still results in a unique metagame, it's not intended to replace normal rules, just meant as an alternative for those who would enjoy a different metagame.

 

[Elbow]

what a wonderful idea....

too bad items never make a game balanced, ever. times 2.

you epicly fail

wow the smash boards has gone bad. horrinlely bad.

No need to be an *** about it...just pass it up.

 

[BananaNut]

Yeah, well, that's certainly not what the science/numbers have been telling us so far, but that's cool. Everyone has an opinion, and I'll certainly respect even an opposing opinion.

D-d-d-did Someone just make a mature post?!? Oh. My. Gosh. I've been, like, waiting for that to happen. Someone acctually put it all in simple reasonable terms. The resoponse is Usually "GTFO"

Kudos to you Jack, for taking the high road and not letting some newbie (that thinks he's bettering his status among the competitives by flaming you) drag you down with him.

Job well done.

 

[renshai117]

Well, I can't say I'd ever want to play in such a tournament, but I am very much for the idea of one existing. I feel it would be greatly appreciated by those who fell in love with the madness that was "smash brothers" before they realized they could turn items off.

 

[Radzilla]

Nothing wrong with this idea. I like playing with items and without items equally. They are both fun and interesting to me. In Melee, however, I could not stand items. And, there was one simple reason for that.

Containers.

Because, in Brawl, you can turn containers off without turning items off, there is no chance of an anti-climactic exploding crate appearing in a match. Turn that off, along with some of the insanely overpowered items, and you have an equally fun (but different) experience from standard tourney rules.

You have my support. I'm interested in seeing the result.

 

[UltiMario]

If there were items on, the only one would be the Smoke Ball, cause al it does is sit there and look cool
But still, someone would find a glitch OHKOing your foe with it, and be banned.
Items =/= competitive.

 

[goodoldganon]

Read the link.

Items in this game (THIS game, not Smash, but Brawl specifically) seem to be way too overpowered and, in my opinion, just don't really work. Even my roommates, who don't play competitively, hate the items due to their craziness.

That being said, more power to you. The post on that given link was very professional and it seems that you are well on your way to making a viable alternative to straight up tourney play.

No one should tell other people how to or how not to play, so play on.

I agree 100% with this post. I feel a large portion of the items are way too powerful in this game to not have a huge impact. Any weapon that can be thrown, like the beam sword, home-run bat, etc, sticks around for way too long in this game. I could go on about why each item could instantly change a match from going one way to the other, but I'm lazy.

It sounds like a fun and could be a good way for other good players who don't like the tourney rules to get involved. If there isn't an entry fee for a tournament I'd participate, but I don't want to lose money cause I died from a Deku Nut at 50% or I went from 10% to 300% cause I got trapped by a paper fan.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree 100% with this post. I feel a large portion of the items are way too powerful in this game to not have a huge impact. Any weapon that can be thrown, like the beam sword, home-run bat, etc, sticks around for way too long in this game. I could go on about why each item could instantly change a match from going one way to the other, but I'm lazy.

It sounds like a fun and could be a good way for other good players who don't like the tourney rules to get involved. If there isn't an entry fee for a tournament I'd participate, but I don't want to lose money cause I died from a Deku Nut at 50% or I went from 10% to 300% cause I got trapped by a paper fan.

Which is why they are testing extensively to try to mitigate the crazyness as much as possible without eliminating items alltogether.

Deku nut is already out for instance, we'll see about the fan.

 

[goodoldganon]

Which is why they are testing extensively to try to mitigate the crazyness as much as possible without eliminating items alltogether.

Deku nut is already out for instance, we'll see about the fan.

Well thats good. I hate that **** Deku nut.

 

[ecstatic]

Personally, I prefer 1 on 1 no items.

That said, I don't have a problem with an alternative tourney scene. At the very least, it stops noobs from filling up the boards with crap. It seems you guys are starting to find a balanced items list, though.

Although I don't like items, I'll be going wherever the best pros or the biggest following is for tourneys. I'd prefer that non-items stays standard personally, but if it doesn't, then I'll go and play items.


Lastly, I have two suggestions:

1) Instead of testing with lvl 7's and lvl 9's, do 8's and 9's. Try to make the skill gap smaller, to see if having closer skill levels means a bigger effect of items, because at the metagame, everyone's pretty close in skill. (Unless for whatever reason lvl 8's are stupid or something.)

2) Test to see if ray guns are broken or not. Many characters can be very easily gimped by being hit continuously with the shots.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Lastly, I have two suggestions:

1) Instead of testing with lvl 7's and lvl 9's, do 8's and 9's. Try to make the skill gap smaller, to see if having closer skill levels means a bigger effect of items, because at the metagame, everyone's pretty close in skill. (Unless for whatever reason lvl 8's are stupid or something.)

2) Test to see if ray guns are broken or not. Many characters can be very easily gimped by being hit continuously with the shots.

1 ) Well, the reason we're testing using lvl 9's and lvl 7's is because the difference in skill is great enough so that the lvl 9 should always (or almost always) win, but not so great that the lvl 7 doesn't have a chance in hell to win; theoretically, given these circumstances, if the lvl 9 continues to consistently win (items or not), then the item's logically must not be affecting the fight enough to undermine inherent skill. The difference in skill between a lvl 9 and a lvl 8 isn't great enough to see this effect accurately; in fact, once we get to the point where we would need to pit a lvl 8 and a lvl 9 against each other, we might as well just move on to human testing (we're almost there, by the way).

2 ) Man, I hope they aren't... but they probably are. Luckily, it might not matter too much because a low spawn rate coupled with the number of items we have on (most of them) means that they shouldn't come up much at all. If they do come up, we have to assume that the two people fighting are both adequately skilled, which means that if one player is good enough to get the gimp kill with a ray gun, we have to also assume that the other player is competent enough to know how to get out of that situation.

 

[Fade016]

Imo I think any item will also have some random effect poke balls are pure random anyways. you could be loosing you have one stock left 140% they have about 30% then a hammer or bomb spawns right above you and then you gain about 80% dmg or even kill for the win(for possible first place of 200$+ for a random lucky item). All though Peach and DDD have random elements its to that extreme and its to the extent of the characters moves not a random lucky spawn.

 

[Nemireck]

This is a great idea for the more casual Brawl crowd who enjoy items and want to compete in a tournament with items.

It should be noted that items are inherently unbalanced, if for no other reason than that they spawn in random locations on the map. You can have the most balanced collection of items in the world available in the tournament, but it's still random-*** bull**** if I'm on the left side of the stage and an item drops on top of my opponent who's on the right-side of the stage.

That all being said, I have fun with items with my friends and support this mission! Just one thing...

Stop doing your tests based on computers. Regardless of their levels, they do not act like humans would, and they are not nearly as skilled as any decent Brawl player (even a BAD player can smash a lvl 9 computer). Find a friend, and do the tests hands-on, so you get a TRUE feel for the balance of the items.
,

 

[Jack Kieser]

Good news, people: The 'ISP' project has just announced its first online tournament! All of the juicy details can be found at the official thread on the Online Tournament Listings board. Hit us up if you're interested/would like to participate.

 

[verditude]

I like the idea. All competitive smashers tell casuals who want to play competitively with items to make their own tourneys, but there's never any form of institution or structure for these item tourneys.

BTW, all the explosive items should be banned.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You've got to respect the opinion of a man with a Stephen Colbert avatar.

 

[Mr.E]

I might argue in favor of Smart Bombs compared to other explosives, since it's more damage-racking than deadly (SDI to the edge of the explosion and you won't get sent flying by the final hit) and it's not difficult to hurt yourself with it. It's not much different than racking up 40% with a Super Scope or low-damage Ray Gun, except much more difficult to use.

And the Ray Gun easily carries many characters straight off the side at mid-percents.

 

[0RLY]

Yeah, well, that's certainly not what the science/numbers have been telling us so far, but that's cool. Everyone has an opinion, and I'll certainly respect even an opposing opinion.

OMFG MATURITY!! I appreciate that response more than your whole thread.

 

[eyestrain92]

what a wonderful idea....

too bad items never make a game balanced, ever. times 2.

you epicly fail

wow the smash boards has gone bad. horrinlely bad.

What a wonderful person.

You have yourself, your close-minded attitude, and your abuse and ignorance of the english language to blame for the direction of the boards.

Items add a fun aspect, and it is a new way to play. It's not meant to replace competitive Brawl in case you had no idea, which you obviously did.

 

[Jack Kieser]

OMFG MATURITY!! I appreciate that response more than your whole thread.

Ha, I don't know why people keep saying that; I thought that's how you were supposed to treat people.

 

[Jack Kieser]

So, I just wanted to update the thread, since it's been a LONG time since I've done so. The 'ISP' online tournament is coming along very well; we have signups going on in 'Online Tournament Listings' right now, so hit us up if you're interested in playing. The item list that we'll be using for the tournament is there, and I just posted the stage list that we'll be using, as well.