jotun
Smash Ace
If items are on, you can get f*cked over by exploding capsules spawning in the middle of an attack.
The end!
The end!
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Items should have banlists rather than outright banned in tournaments
- Thread starter wodan46
- Start date
It doesn't work that way anymore, but thanks for trying!
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Silver. Yes, items most likely will need to be turned off. Does that mean that we should just assume that every single item is bad and never give it any consideration? I don't think so. Obviously bomb-ombs and hammers aren't going to be left on, but could there conceivably be items that might work in the competitive smash scene? Yes, absolutely. Could they all end up not working out whatsoever? Of course, but right now how can we know?
Matt, the day someone can negate the randomness of items is the day I'll support trying them out in tournaments.
Exploding containers was a part of it, but not the only reason why we banned item. Even if we remove all really broken items, we'd still get stuck with sometimes that in some way could decide the outcome of a game/set purely based on luck while negating skill. And competitive play does not want that.
It'd be another question altogether if it couldn't be turned off, then we'd start discussing which items to leave on. But since it can be turned off, we turn it off. I don't understand why the Smash community has such difficulty grasping what Competitive gaming is all about. If you ask a high ranking member of any other fighting game community, I doubt even 5% of them would hesitate before agreeing on that items have to be turned off (if they knew exactly how items worked, that is).
Who really wants to see Amsah verse Captain Jack or whoever only to take a random lucky item spawn win it for either side when the other side was clearly winning?
Items can and (therefore) will decide the outcome of important games... due to randomness and luck while negating skill (not always but sometimes). This is too much of a sacrifice.
We don't need to try everything out in tournaments to know it won't work. Imagine NTSC-Sheik from Melee in Brawl. The rest are the same as they are now, only Sheik's like her NTSC-counterpart in Melee. How many people do you think would blink before banning her outright from tournaments?
Rakath
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2007
- Messages
- 643
This is the point where I make a subtle comment about how Smoke Bombs are really dangerous and are a game breaking item effect.
And this is where I type out Sarcasm to explain my previous insane comment.
If we eliminate the really over the top items, what is left are not nearly so crazy then why not give it a try. There isn't a reason to not try a few tournaments with items on...
And this is where I type out Sarcasm to explain my previous insane comment.
If we eliminate the really over the top items, what is left are not nearly so crazy then why not give it a try. There isn't a reason to not try a few tournaments with items on...
Because the random factor would still remain.
Any item left on would have the potential to randomly decide the outcome of a match based on pure luck and not any skill whatsoever. It does not matter which two players are playing or which characters they play. At any random moment, a lucky item spawn might turn the tide and ultimately decide the outcome of that match.
Which is not OK in competitive gaming.
Pi
Smash Hero
Jesus...Yuna I don't know how you can keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.
Guys, the tournament scene has been the same for ages, the tournament goers and the hosts have both 'agreed' to NOT use items.
This is not a WORLDWIDE RULE! It's tournament specific! It's what people have thought about and decided AGAINST.
We get your arguments man! Really! They have been stated over and over and over again, we see the logic but just drop it already!
Some people enjoy playing with no randomness, most of these people are tourney goers! We like to bring EVERYTHING down to skill. This way there can be no johns. No one can walk away from a tournament saying 'he only won cause he got a star rod' or anything bull **** like that.
Everything, EVERYTHING is equal when we take away items (Save for some character differences, but this is the BARE MINIMUM).
While items can be taken away, they will be taken away from competitive play.
Seriously guys just stop arguing for them. What reason do you have to argue for them? Do you want to participate in tournaments with items? Or do you just want everyone to say your right to help your ego out?
There is no right or wrong when it comes to a game, man. It's about having fun. Some people have fun without items, some people have fun WITH items. They are different, so just drop it already...
If you enjoy items then play with them, nobody is stopping you...but stop trying to stop us from playing without items >.<
Guys, the tournament scene has been the same for ages, the tournament goers and the hosts have both 'agreed' to NOT use items.
This is not a WORLDWIDE RULE! It's tournament specific! It's what people have thought about and decided AGAINST.
We get your arguments man! Really! They have been stated over and over and over again, we see the logic but just drop it already!
Some people enjoy playing with no randomness, most of these people are tourney goers! We like to bring EVERYTHING down to skill. This way there can be no johns. No one can walk away from a tournament saying 'he only won cause he got a star rod' or anything bull **** like that.
Everything, EVERYTHING is equal when we take away items (Save for some character differences, but this is the BARE MINIMUM).
While items can be taken away, they will be taken away from competitive play.
Seriously guys just stop arguing for them. What reason do you have to argue for them? Do you want to participate in tournaments with items? Or do you just want everyone to say your right to help your ego out?
There is no right or wrong when it comes to a game, man. It's about having fun. Some people have fun without items, some people have fun WITH items. They are different, so just drop it already...
If you enjoy items then play with them, nobody is stopping you...but stop trying to stop us from playing without items >.<
Because people never learn. I've seriously seen the same people repeat the same arguments (not that all people do this, some do), totally ignoring my valid points like "Randomness!!!!".
Not a single person has come up with a valid and complete defense against randomness, yet they keep repeating the same things over and over and over again. And one of the more popular "arguments" is "If you're really pro (a lulz term), then you should be able to adapt".
Of course I can adapt to a lucky item drop spawning right next to my opponent while I can do nothing to stop them from picking it up and winning with it. I'm just that good.
The game professionals invented is about being Skilled, Smash Brothers is one big party of Chaos.
Pi
Smash Hero
It's not only that, it's the fact that they seem to think that we have less fun playing without items. And their complete disregard for our personal preferences...while NONE of us say that their way of playing is worse than ours, they are constantly implying that our way of play is worse than theirs.
RedMage8BT
Smash Lord
Are items not a method of winning? Doesn't that make all the "pros" out there scrubs for not allowing them?
I don't support items in tournaments, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
I don't support items in tournaments, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
For those arguing for Smash balls on, I have two sets of words for you.
Samus mains hate you.
ZSS mains love you.
Watch ZSS combo you, final smash for the KO, then DROP the suit and have even more items to kill you with, while a Samus main is stuck with a character s/he may or may not be good with until the next Smash ball rolls around.
I guess the randomness is the big factor kicking them out... but now it's the ONLY factor, especially since all the other factors got booted in the transition from Melee to Brawl (all fail items can get banned, mid-air dodging keeps gimps from being easy, etc.)
Samus mains hate you.
ZSS mains love you.
Watch ZSS combo you, final smash for the KO, then DROP the suit and have even more items to kill you with, while a Samus main is stuck with a character s/he may or may not be good with until the next Smash ball rolls around.
I guess the randomness is the big factor kicking them out... but now it's the ONLY factor, especially since all the other factors got booted in the transition from Melee to Brawl (all fail items can get banned, mid-air dodging keeps gimps from being easy, etc.)
Pi
Smash Hero
Do you honestly believe that, in an item match, with a pro. vs. a casual player the outcome would be any different than if it were a no items match?
We're talking at high level of game play here, where matches are really close, and any advantage in one persons favor can alter the outcome of the match. Tournaments have money on the line, people spent money to test their skills, not get lucky. If you wanna spend money on luck they have a whole city devoted to it 'Las Vegas'.
If that's how you feel, feel free to host your own 4 Man FFA-tournaments on time with items on.
It's not that you win, it's how you win. Even if we play "to win", if something broken were discovered that made a character "way too good", then we'd ban them. Certain games have already banned characters for being just too good (i.e. the scene would literaly break down to that character alone).
The same goes for items. They're too good. Even if they aren't too good and we ban all the broken ones, then they're random. It's like introducing the option in Guilty Gear to have have a chance of 1/10 that all attacks in the game become five times as powerful. Everyone would have it, but it'd be random. The GG-community would immediately turn it off.
RedMage8BT
Smash Lord
Well, the traditional definition of a scrub is someone who plays by a misguided code of "honor" and refuses to utilize some of the options included in the game due to them being "cheap".
One could compare that to pros not using items because they're "cheap".
Again, I don't really support this, I'm just playing DA.
EDIT: I see what you're saying, Yuna.
Some stages are broken for competitive play. Tournaments banlist them, and leave some for counterpicks.
Some items are broken for competitive play. Tournaments ban all items regardless of how powerful they are.
Is that really fair?
Yuna, if you continue to mention items that are quite obviously not on my list of acceptable ones and cite them as evidence, I'm going to treat you as a troll and ignore you. Did I ever say super scope should be allowed? Allowing that is like allowing Bramble Falls.
I appreciate how about half the people who post don't seem to understand that exploding capsules and bobombs can and should be turned off.
Most of the items I indicated as broken for competitive play are those that essentially allow free hits or bonuses for the one who picked it up, and also those who just do to much damage outright.
For example, take Mr. Saturn. It does fairly low damage, can be dodged with ease, and your opponent can throw it right back at you. Furthermore, you can't do regular A attacks while holding it. The Mr. Saturn is hardly a threat.
How about the proximity mine? While it is probably the strongest of the items I considered playable, it WILL hurt its owner if they step on it just as much as an opponent.
Or the spring. All the spring does is allow for some new attack opportunities, hardly game ending.
Perhaps I should reorganize the list a little
Basic Items
Lip's Stick, Smoke Ball, Gooey Bomb, Mr. Saturn, Banana Peel, Bumper, Spring
Counterpick Items (Counterpick player can turn any of them on)
Fire Flower, Star Rod, Fan, Motion Sensor Bomb, Pitfall, Hothead, Unira, Soccer Ball, and MAYBE Smash Ball
Banned Items
Assist Trophy, Pokeball, Exploding Containers of any Type, Party Balls, Blast Box, Sandbag, Food, Maxim Tomato, Heart Container, Dragoon Parts Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Warp Star, Starman, Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Superspicy Curry, Timer, Lightning, Beam Sword, Home Run Bat, Hammer, Golden Hammer Super Scope, Ray Gun, Cracker Launcher, Bob-omb, Smart Bomb, Deku Nut, Freezie, Green Shell, Team Healer, Franklin Badge, Screw Attack.
Some items are broken for competitive play. Tournaments ban all items regardless of how powerful they are.
Is that really fair?
Yuna, if you continue to mention items that are quite obviously not on my list of acceptable ones and cite them as evidence, I'm going to treat you as a troll and ignore you. Did I ever say super scope should be allowed? Allowing that is like allowing Bramble Falls.
I appreciate how about half the people who post don't seem to understand that exploding capsules and bobombs can and should be turned off.
Most of the items I indicated as broken for competitive play are those that essentially allow free hits or bonuses for the one who picked it up, and also those who just do to much damage outright.
For example, take Mr. Saturn. It does fairly low damage, can be dodged with ease, and your opponent can throw it right back at you. Furthermore, you can't do regular A attacks while holding it. The Mr. Saturn is hardly a threat.
How about the proximity mine? While it is probably the strongest of the items I considered playable, it WILL hurt its owner if they step on it just as much as an opponent.
Or the spring. All the spring does is allow for some new attack opportunities, hardly game ending.
Perhaps I should reorganize the list a little
Basic Items
Lip's Stick, Smoke Ball, Gooey Bomb, Mr. Saturn, Banana Peel, Bumper, Spring
Counterpick Items (Counterpick player can turn any of them on)
Fire Flower, Star Rod, Fan, Motion Sensor Bomb, Pitfall, Hothead, Unira, Soccer Ball, and MAYBE Smash Ball
Banned Items
Assist Trophy, Pokeball, Exploding Containers of any Type, Party Balls, Blast Box, Sandbag, Food, Maxim Tomato, Heart Container, Dragoon Parts Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Warp Star, Starman, Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Superspicy Curry, Timer, Lightning, Beam Sword, Home Run Bat, Hammer, Golden Hammer Super Scope, Ray Gun, Cracker Launcher, Bob-omb, Smart Bomb, Deku Nut, Freezie, Green Shell, Team Healer, Franklin Badge, Screw Attack.
wodan46, come up wit ha way to counteract the inherent randomness of all items. Then we'll talk. Stop ignoring that perfectly valid argument for why items can never be allowed in tournament play. Especially since I've been repeating it for weeks.
Mr. Saturn must be banned. It breaks the shield on one hit now.
Bumpers must be banned also, how the hell are you going to recover if someone throws a bumper right at the ledge? Sweetspotting is OK, but then how to get back onto the stage? Rolling? Watch out for the opponent camping on the other side with charged smashes.
Smash Balls will never be on. Stop dreaming.
Soccer Balls are too stupid. Sometimes they'll hit the one who hit it (but not always and not always even with the exact same circumstances). It rebounds in strange ways and how hard it flies is quite random (in my experience).
Anything that gives people a projectile is also broken. Marth is not meant to have a projectile. He's already godly without one. Watch them throw a projectile at you while edgeguarding and then jumping after it to edgeguard further.
So you airdodge/grab the item, what then? There's Marth coming after you to what you senseless. They add a lot of depth, sure. They also add brokenness.
We'd be stuck with a very small number of items that could still decide the outcome of a game (because even traps can be comboed into) and that would be random.
Solve the randomness problem, then we'll talk.
Mr. Saturn must be banned. It breaks the shield on one hit now.
Bumpers must be banned also, how the hell are you going to recover if someone throws a bumper right at the ledge? Sweetspotting is OK, but then how to get back onto the stage? Rolling? Watch out for the opponent camping on the other side with charged smashes.
Smash Balls will never be on. Stop dreaming.
Soccer Balls are too stupid. Sometimes they'll hit the one who hit it (but not always and not always even with the exact same circumstances). It rebounds in strange ways and how hard it flies is quite random (in my experience).
Anything that gives people a projectile is also broken. Marth is not meant to have a projectile. He's already godly without one. Watch them throw a projectile at you while edgeguarding and then jumping after it to edgeguard further.
So you airdodge/grab the item, what then? There's Marth coming after you to what you senseless. They add a lot of depth, sure. They also add brokenness.
We'd be stuck with a very small number of items that could still decide the outcome of a game (because even traps can be comboed into) and that would be random.
Solve the randomness problem, then we'll talk.
Pi
Smash Hero
Your idea is probably one of the most thought out and reasonable ones in regards to items but it misses the point of competitive play.
The items you listed are not broken, but they are game altering. The major tournaments like to bring as much as they can down to pure skill.
Do you agree that items do add a touch of randomness to the game? I don't think anyone can disagree...
I can see your logic, but what I can't see is a reason why you want them in. We have given you the same reason over and over again, we enjoy taking things down to skill, we enjoy limiting randomness as much as we can, we have FUN that way.
Your arguments are reasonable, really they are, but the fact still remains that items do offer a (no matter how minuscule) random advantage in one players favor that can alter the outcome of a hundred, even thousand dollar match.
These are matches that cost REAL money with REAL money on the line, imagine how much controversy will ensue over a match lost due to tripping. It's the same deal with items.
No one is telling you not to play with items, unless you enter a tournament, but I take it you don't plan to? If so then I recommend playing some games with your friends and pretending you have money on the line (both of you) with items on.
Exploding containers was the only reason why I banned items when I did. I might have ended up banning them some point later down the line anyway, but we never got that far because the exploding containers decided the argument. However, those can now be turned of again, so we're basically back to where we left of on the items debate.
How big of an issue this could really be also depends on how powerful the individual items turn out to be as well as how they effect individual character and stage match-ups, which is why it really is to early to tell at this point. We need to know better how this game holds up in competitive play before we can really form a well thought out opinion on this issue.
PS: The people saying "They shouldn't be on because they weren't on in Melee" need a history lesson. For the first year and a half of competitive Melee items on was quite common in many areas including the first 5 TG's. They where turned off eventually because of exploding containers, not because of the inherent random spawning of items. It was never as clear cut as some people are making it out to be.
How can you say an item can decide the match on pure luck with no skill at all? The whole criteria we'd use for banning individual items is that they need to require active use to effect a match, so by definition an item could never effect a match without the players doing something with it. After all, if a Star Rod (not a Fan as someone said, since a fan is a terrible weapon for edge guarding) spawns while I'm being edge guarded it won't kill me without the other player actually using it, which requires skill. Sure, a lucky drop may have slightly effected the situation both players find themselves in, but what they do with that situation is still very much in their own hands. My opponent needs to decide if he wants to grab the item and if so how he wants to use it try and kill me while I have to decide if and how I want to change my recovery approach to avoid it. Luck was at most only a small part of what caused the outcome of that situation. You could even say that it's my own fault for getting knocked of the stage in the first place that allowed the other player to get the item uncontested. Which brings us back to the argument of stage control. With items on controlling the flow of the battle and the positioning of your opponent and yourself becomes even more important.
How big of an issue this could really be also depends on how powerful the individual items turn out to be as well as how they effect individual character and stage match-ups, which is why it really is to early to tell at this point. We need to know better how this game holds up in competitive play before we can really form a well thought out opinion on this issue.
PS: The people saying "They shouldn't be on because they weren't on in Melee" need a history lesson. For the first year and a half of competitive Melee items on was quite common in many areas including the first 5 TG's. They where turned off eventually because of exploding containers, not because of the inherent random spawning of items. It was never as clear cut as some people are making it out to be.
Matt, yes, it requires skill to use items, but it does not require skill (in fact, skill has nothing to do with it) to make items spawn at the "right" spots at the "right" times. We do not want matches to be decided by lucky item drops (and they will be). That's not competitive.
No one can stop the right item to spawn just as they're smashed off the stage, giving the opponent an even greater advantage. No one can prevent an item from spawning next to their opponent while they're too far away to grab it. It's random and you cannot predict it because it's random (even if you camp an item spawn spot, there are still others).
Players with luck on their side will end up beating better players. Yes, the skill gap between them might not be that large but we do not wish to have tournament matches decided by luck. Even if the skill gap isn't large, when it's apparently someone should win a match only to lose it to an item, that's bad.
No matter how much fun it might be with items on, it's not good for competitive play.
If an item changes the odds in the slightest, then that's bad enough. We limit things that work against competitive play as much as we can.
Matt, do not use the old "History Lesson" card. Hundreds of years ago, slavery was alive and well. So we did a mistake years and years back. Big whoop? We've learned from it.
No one can stop the right item to spawn just as they're smashed off the stage, giving the opponent an even greater advantage. No one can prevent an item from spawning next to their opponent while they're too far away to grab it. It's random and you cannot predict it because it's random (even if you camp an item spawn spot, there are still others).
Players with luck on their side will end up beating better players. Yes, the skill gap between them might not be that large but we do not wish to have tournament matches decided by luck. Even if the skill gap isn't large, when it's apparently someone should win a match only to lose it to an item, that's bad.
No matter how much fun it might be with items on, it's not good for competitive play.
If an item changes the odds in the slightest, then that's bad enough. We limit things that work against competitive play as much as we can.
Matt, do not use the old "History Lesson" card. Hundreds of years ago, slavery was alive and well. So we did a mistake years and years back. Big whoop? We've learned from it.
I'm reasonably sure Sakurai added tripping solely to cheese off people like Yuna.
A single item spawn is random. However, many item spawns will have negligible variability, as they will appear near one player as often as the other.
However, if items were especially powerful, then that negligible variability would still be too much. That's why the items I indicated are relatively weak.
Mr. Saturn is not a threat Yuna. Explain to me how a pro player is going to have difficulty catching a Mr. Saturn, or simply dodging it, especially since they don't have to worry about any of the A moves their opponent has, making the opponent's tactics more predictable. Once the pro player has avoided the Saturn, they can just pick it up for themselves and throw it back.
The Bumper can be a hassle to recovering opponents, but a decent player should be able to get back. More importantly, once the Bumper spawns, players will probably do their best to ensure that it is their opponent that has to deal with recovering. The Bumper can cause an edge guard KO, but doing so requires use of skill to set up the trap, just like any other move.
Items are just additional tools and traps available to all characters. Set at very low, with only the weaker ones available, they will have less effect on the variability of the game then tripping would.
A single item spawn is random. However, many item spawns will have negligible variability, as they will appear near one player as often as the other.
However, if items were especially powerful, then that negligible variability would still be too much. That's why the items I indicated are relatively weak.
Mr. Saturn is not a threat Yuna. Explain to me how a pro player is going to have difficulty catching a Mr. Saturn, or simply dodging it, especially since they don't have to worry about any of the A moves their opponent has, making the opponent's tactics more predictable. Once the pro player has avoided the Saturn, they can just pick it up for themselves and throw it back.
The Bumper can be a hassle to recovering opponents, but a decent player should be able to get back. More importantly, once the Bumper spawns, players will probably do their best to ensure that it is their opponent that has to deal with recovering. The Bumper can cause an edge guard KO, but doing so requires use of skill to set up the trap, just like any other move.
Items are just additional tools and traps available to all characters. Set at very low, with only the weaker ones available, they will have less effect on the variability of the game then tripping would.
Sakurai thought it'd be more fun. I don't. Am I wrong? I've never told you you play the game the wrong way. What right do you have to tell me I play it the wrong way?
The odds are the same for everyone. Doesn't mean it'll always be the same in practice. Bad luck, good luck, randomness and every else will boil down to many important games being decided by random and lucky item spawns. And this is not OK.
The fact that any of those items can decide the game is enough. Also, characters without projectiles will magically gain projectiles, further imbalancing the game.
"You're a pro, you should be able to dodge everything" - This is a bad argument I see being used too often.
You cannot dodge everything ever single time. There's stuff called mindgames, fakeouts, mistakes, why do you think people get hit by Peach's Bob-ombs and Grandfather turnips? Are they bad players? Does Ken suck for getting hit by KrazyJones' grandfather (or was it a Bob-omb) in that one Regional battle?
You cannot dodge every single item. And even if you dodge them who the hell just chucks an item and waits and see? Watch me grab a Mr. Saturn, chuck it at you (you cannot block it! You must roll, spotdodge or try to catch it) and then dash towards you/jump towards you and shieldpressure you or whatever. Whatever you try to do, I can predict it and react accordingly (not that it's easy).
I wouldn't be able to do this without the Mr. Saturn. Because a normal item isn't nearly as dangerous since you can block them.
Have you played the game. Chuck the bumper right on the edge. Now who can ever make it back unless they recover high and above the bumper?
Everything requires skill. The luck aspect of it is just very bad. Stop trying to avoid the luck aspect. Luck can and will determine important matches. That's enough reason to ban them already.
They're available to all characters but who gets what is determined by sheer luck. In any given game, one player can have all of the good items spawn next to them while the other gets nothing or just bad ones.
Is it more fun? Subjective. Is it more random? Yes. Is it competitive? No.
Seriously, go ask a bunch of competitive fighter players of any major competitive fighting game. And ask them about items (explaining exactly how they work). And write down the number of people who laugh at the suggestion of them in competitive tournaments vs. the number of ones who think they should be on.
Pi
Smash Hero
Na, I definitely feel Mr. Saturn should be banned. If you shield him your shield breaks and your opponent gets a free hit of his choice. Think about Ike or Dedede getting a free fully charged perfectly spaced forward A.
wodan46: Can you explain to me why you want tournaments to have items in them?
wodan46: Can you explain to me why you want tournaments to have items in them?
FerretStyle
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2007
- Messages
- 83
To me, it's really simple.
If an item has the potential to have a significant impact on the outcome on the match, it shouldn't be allowed.
If an item does not have the potential to have a significant impact on the outcome of a match, then it's rather pointless to use it in the first place.
Therefore, it doesn't matter that all items are off.
Hypothetically speaking, even harmless items only serve as a distraction if they don't have some other purpose. It makes more sense just to turn them off.
If an item has the potential to have a significant impact on the outcome on the match, it shouldn't be allowed.
If an item does not have the potential to have a significant impact on the outcome of a match, then it's rather pointless to use it in the first place.
Therefore, it doesn't matter that all items are off.
Hypothetically speaking, even harmless items only serve as a distraction if they don't have some other purpose. It makes more sense just to turn them off.
Pi
Smash Hero
That's pretty
So again, wodan46, why do you want items in tourney matches?
Why do I want items on? Because some characters such as the Ice Climbers are designed to be more effective with items, which means that they are not up to their full potential without them. Characters were designed to operate in item friendly environments.
I still think you overestimate the power of items, or the probabilities needed for a player to obtain enough items to have an edge over the other player based solely on their use.
I suspect that when dueling, if an item appear, you could roll a die, and if it were a 1, you get, if its a 6, your opponent gets it, and if its a 2, 3, 4, or 5, it appears somewhere inbetween and the retrieval of the item is based on a mixture of skill and character choice. The Ice Climbers are living proof that the ability for characters to use items is not equal.
Doesn't the Bumper move when you collide with it? I thought that if you hit it while recovering, it would be pushed away, and then you could recover again without it blocking. If it works the way you describe it, then maybe it should be banned as well.
Still don't buy the argument that Mr. Saturn is akin to the Terminator. Just dodge it, sheesh. Or don't dodge it. You will take about 10%, and then you can smack the opponent in the face with it.
I still think you overestimate the power of items, or the probabilities needed for a player to obtain enough items to have an edge over the other player based solely on their use.
I suspect that when dueling, if an item appear, you could roll a die, and if it were a 1, you get, if its a 6, your opponent gets it, and if its a 2, 3, 4, or 5, it appears somewhere inbetween and the retrieval of the item is based on a mixture of skill and character choice. The Ice Climbers are living proof that the ability for characters to use items is not equal.
Doesn't the Bumper move when you collide with it? I thought that if you hit it while recovering, it would be pushed away, and then you could recover again without it blocking. If it works the way you describe it, then maybe it should be banned as well.
Still don't buy the argument that Mr. Saturn is akin to the Terminator. Just dodge it, sheesh. Or don't dodge it. You will take about 10%, and then you can smack the opponent in the face with it.
I used to use this argument. "They" all ignored it.
wodan46: All of my arguments are based on valid statistics, logic, etc. and there's evidence to back everything that I say up. Your arguments seem to be based solely on what you think is the truth and how you think the game should play. Stop this, please.
Some items were designed for items. Some weren't. Some become overpowered with items on.
The bumper does not move (IIRC).
How easy it is to grab an item has no relevance whatsoever if an item spawns randomly much closer to one party than the other. No matter how skilled Chu Dat is, I can grab that item faster if it spawns right next to me while he's half the stage away.
Mr. Saturn:
Dodge it - Watch me jump after you after I threw him or watch me jump and then throw him at you. You dodge him, I approach with a fair, you get hit, you die/take damage/get edgeguarded.
You get hit - I throw it, then jump after/I jump and then throw it and then I aerial you for a combo into a KO-move. You die/get edgeguarded.
No Mr. Saturn:
I can only do what's in my characters' meta-game. I'm Marth, I do not have projectiles.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
FerretStyle wins the thread (and the reason why I don't like items on 1v1s)
Also your sig fails, Marth has a fiancee. It's Ike who's gay [/nitpick]
Also your sig fails, Marth has a fiancee. It's Ike who's gay [/nitpick]
Sephi_hatu
Smash Apprentice
Ever heard of a beard? Or all of those idiots who tried to hide their sexuality by going as far as marriage and then failing and having sex with men on the side?
DonkeyPirate
Smash Journeyman
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gentopic.php?board=928518
hey look theres another place to talk about items!!
hey look theres another place to talk about items!!
MorpheusVGX
Smash Journeyman
Ok, I will add up some thoughts about this matter.
First, why do Item lovers (like me) would like to have item Tournaments?
1. Items require skill to use properly.
2. Avoiding items requires skill.
3. Items add a whole new variety on the battlefield, thus a whole new variety of skill to survive.
4. For some players, Smash Bros is about fighting and survival, with or against anything happening. That is the spirit and fun.
5. The truth is that if in a certain situation, an item put a character in an advantage, in a long battle, skill and wit prevails. The best player will survive in the end. If someone loses his last stock by a random item, that does not change the fact the victory is about the whole battle, not just the last stock.
6. Banning item play takes a lot away from the game. Both in skill, "drama" and fun.
7. The truth is that item play requires all the skills you use on non item play and many many more.
8. The ultimate truth is that the best Smash player is the one who survives in the end against all odds in a stock 4 player FFA match, just like the game is designed to be played.
9. Sakurai designed the game so skill can be used against items ( air grab, power shielding, reflectors, air and ground dodge).
So then, why do some elitist just want to compete in no items battles?
1. Many of them are just bad losers, and everytime they lose with an item involved they will just cry like babies "is not fair!, is not fair". I've seen this many times and I hate it. It ALWAYS happen that arrogant bad losers does not want items involved (and they just happen to suck at using items so they are even more pisssed off because their skills are "limited").
2. Coming from other games like street fighter or tekken, they want to turn the smash competitive community just like those games. Taking away a lot of the greatness of Smash Bros.
3. They just think that a final stock lost in the last moment defines the best player.
4. They cry about items being unfair and just turn them off. While item player in time grow in skill enough to avoid and counter those items. There is a difference in courage within these two kind of players.
There are other things to be said. I do not have anything against 1 vs 1 , no items play. But what I want to do now is create a community of competitive item players, having the fun of items, pokemons, assist trophies, orthodox stages and final smashes . I do think Items on high is too chaotic and random. Having them on medium is a better thing. Also, I suggest a 5 stock survival match with 4 player FFA, or team battles will do. Stages can be random but 3 matches should define the winner. Who is with me?
First, why do Item lovers (like me) would like to have item Tournaments?
1. Items require skill to use properly.
2. Avoiding items requires skill.
3. Items add a whole new variety on the battlefield, thus a whole new variety of skill to survive.
4. For some players, Smash Bros is about fighting and survival, with or against anything happening. That is the spirit and fun.
5. The truth is that if in a certain situation, an item put a character in an advantage, in a long battle, skill and wit prevails. The best player will survive in the end. If someone loses his last stock by a random item, that does not change the fact the victory is about the whole battle, not just the last stock.
6. Banning item play takes a lot away from the game. Both in skill, "drama" and fun.
7. The truth is that item play requires all the skills you use on non item play and many many more.
8. The ultimate truth is that the best Smash player is the one who survives in the end against all odds in a stock 4 player FFA match, just like the game is designed to be played.
9. Sakurai designed the game so skill can be used against items ( air grab, power shielding, reflectors, air and ground dodge).
So then, why do some elitist just want to compete in no items battles?
1. Many of them are just bad losers, and everytime they lose with an item involved they will just cry like babies "is not fair!, is not fair". I've seen this many times and I hate it. It ALWAYS happen that arrogant bad losers does not want items involved (and they just happen to suck at using items so they are even more pisssed off because their skills are "limited").
2. Coming from other games like street fighter or tekken, they want to turn the smash competitive community just like those games. Taking away a lot of the greatness of Smash Bros.
3. They just think that a final stock lost in the last moment defines the best player.
4. They cry about items being unfair and just turn them off. While item player in time grow in skill enough to avoid and counter those items. There is a difference in courage within these two kind of players.
There are other things to be said. I do not have anything against 1 vs 1 , no items play. But what I want to do now is create a community of competitive item players, having the fun of items, pokemons, assist trophies, orthodox stages and final smashes . I do think Items on high is too chaotic and random. Having them on medium is a better thing. Also, I suggest a 5 stock survival match with 4 player FFA, or team battles will do. Stages can be random but 3 matches should define the winner. Who is with me?
MorpheusVGX, you know nothing, you understand nothing. The majority of your arguments have been done to death and already refuted. The fact that you value "drama" and "fun" over skill makes it entirely obvious you don't even play Smash competitively. So why do you even care what the Competitive scene does?
Your post is inflammatory because you call us elitists, sore losers, etc.
Come up with a good counter-argument to the randomness-argument.
Your post is inflammatory because you call us elitists, sore losers, etc.
Come up with a good counter-argument to the randomness-argument.
just asking to see whether or not I should bring it up
RedMage8BT
Smash Lord
Do you play in tournaments, Morpheus? Would you want items to decide whether you win money or lose money?
Even someone like you can admit that there is a lot of randomness in items to the point where it can decide the fate of the match.
EDIT: Beat me to it, Yuna
Even someone like you can admit that there is a lot of randomness in items to the point where it can decide the fate of the match.
EDIT: Beat me to it, Yuna
Someone brought it up a while back.
DonkeyPirate
Smash Journeyman
morpheus, you couldn't be more wrong about anything. there is virtually no skill involved in using items. pick up, use. Removing items is what helps people grow as a player because they actually have to learn to fight and properly use their character. I'm pretty sure any competitive player can beat an "item using" player in an item match.
then good day to you all!