I've become a believer in the King of Swing.

[WarioWaft]

Thought DK was not a useful character. I've made it my personal mission to learn what many consider are competitive "low tier" characters and maximize the best out of them.

So far, I'm maining Wario, Duck Hunt, Ganon, Bowser, Olimar, Doc.

I messed around with DK a few months ago, the other day I picked him as a joke to play round a little and now I'm happy to say he's made me a believer. His power, combo potential, and especially catching opponents off guard with the side-b.

I can probably slide DK into my Top 3-5 now. I spent 3-4 hours last night just playing with him in FG. What an experience.

 

[Xandercosm]

DK isn't a low tier anymore.

 

[What is Smash?]

DK isn't a low tier anymore.

Yeah, DK is top 25. Solid mid-tier.

 

[Frizz]

It always warms my heart to see underused characters in For Glory. What even warms it even more is that if they're fun to play against. I'm rooting for you!

 

[Arcturian]

Welcome to the team. We shower you with coconut cream pies.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Donkey Kong is the confirmed Dunk Master. He has the most satisfying spikes I swear. The only thing more satisfying than Pikachu's bair stage spiking when I'm playing is DK's fair dunking. DK is training with Kobe on his downtime.

 

[Dre89]

Donkey Kong is the confirmed Dunk Master. He has the most satisfying spikes I swear. The only thing more satisfying than Pikachu's bair stage spiking when I'm playing is DK's fair dunking. DK is training with Kobe on his downtime.

Fair dunking is satisfying, but the thing I enjoy the most is gimping people with perfectly spaced bairs.

 

[Xandercosm]

DK is a beautiful, beautiful character... *sniff*

 

[S_B]

m2k wouldn't be maining him unless there was some serious potential there.

I'm hoping they give more heavyweights a hoo-haa/ding-dong because it can skyrocket them from "crap tier" all the way to "he turned that match around in 4 seconds..." tier.

 

[Xandercosm]

m2k wouldn't be maining him unless there was some serious potential there.

I'm hoping they give more heavyweights a hoo-haa/ding-dong because it can skyrocket them from "crap tier" all the way to "he turned that match around in 4 seconds..." tier.

So true. The heavies have probably been given the least attention of the entire cast by Nintendo...

 

[S_B]

So true. The heavies have probably been given the least attention of the entire cast by Nintendo...

I feel like they tried a bit harder this time out. Heavies do have a lot more killing power than in previous games and in many cases it's possible to land it reasonably.

But the real problem is that Sakurai and co. seriously, SERIOUSLY underestimate just how much of a disadvantage a big body truly is in this game, especially in cases of small quick characters that can effectively negate our weight advantage by adding 50-70% to us off of a single hit confirm because we are combo FOOD...

DK is easily the best designed heavyweight right now because, yes, you CAN combo him for days, but all he needs is 50% and a grab and he can turn that stock around in seconds, and that's AWESOME...

I guess what I don't understand is the logic of throws being garbage for heavies (with the exception of Zard and ROB) as in TL's backthrow kills Bowser at 120% from the edge of most stages, but Bowser, this massive, mighty thing, can't throw tiny lil' characters like TL to the blast zone until well into 120-150%...

And if they don't want to unbalance it for casual, okay, fine, just give us our combo throws like the ding-dong (which casual players will never be able to take advantage of) and everything will be good...

 

[Xandercosm]

I feel like they tried a bit harder this time out. Heavies do have a lot more killing power than in previous games and in many cases it's possible to land it reasonably.

But the real problem is that Sakurai and co. seriously, SERIOUSLY underestimate just how much of a disadvantage a big body truly is in this game, especially in cases of small quick characters that can effectively negate our weight advantage by adding 50-70% to us off of a single hit confirm because we are combo FOOD...

DK is easily the best designed heavyweight right now because, yes, you CAN combo him for days, but all he needs is 50% and a grab and he can turn that stock around in seconds, and that's AWESOME...

I guess what I don't understand is the logic of throws being garbage for heavies (with the exception of Zard and ROB) as in TL's backthrow kills Bowser at 120% from the edge of most stages, but Bowser, this massive, mighty thing, can't throw tiny lil' characters like TL to the blast zone until well into 120-150%...

And if they don't want to unbalance it for casual, okay, fine, just give us our combo throws like the ding-dong (which casual players will never be able to take advantage of) and everything will be good...

Yeah, I thought ding-dong was a brilliant addition to the game that could NOT have been by chance. Nintendo must have been aware that they were adding something to the game that could be taken advantage of by pros and not casuals. One of the best decisions they have ever made. But, it just makes me even more sad that they don't do the same with other heavies. In fact, bowser and others could stand to have their power nerfed, actually. I think they should definitely consider nerfing their raw power a little and giving them better combo options and combo throws. Anyway, I've always thought this about the heavies. They're so fun to play but their design has always been so flawed. I think they need to completely rethink heavies, honestly.

 

[Dre89]

I feel like they tried a bit harder this time out. Heavies do have a lot more killing power than in previous games and in many cases it's possible to land it reasonably.

But the real problem is that Sakurai and co. seriously, SERIOUSLY underestimate just how much of a disadvantage a big body truly is in this game, especially in cases of small quick characters that can effectively negate our weight advantage by adding 50-70% to us off of a single hit confirm because we are combo FOOD...

DK is easily the best designed heavyweight right now because, yes, you CAN combo him for days, but all he needs is 50% and a grab and he can turn that stock around in seconds, and that's AWESOME...

I guess what I don't understand is the logic of throws being garbage for heavies (with the exception of Zard and ROB) as in TL's backthrow kills Bowser at 120% from the edge of most stages, but Bowser, this massive, mighty thing, can't throw tiny lil' characters like TL to the blast zone until well into 120-150%...

And if they don't want to unbalance it for casual, okay, fine, just give us our combo throws like the ding-dong (which casual players will never be able to take advantage of) and everything will be good...

Bowser would be broken if he had a combo game and kill confirms out of grab. He doesn't have that stuff because his throws do high damage and he gets grabs so easily thanks to his massive dashgrab and pivot grab.

DK's grab power is at least kept in check by his bad dashgrab. Bowser is also much better at killing than DK outside of ding dong, unless they're a character DK can gimp.

Bowser is not that much worse than DK, and he'd be too broken if he got the kind of buffs that DK got.

 

[Xandercosm]

Bowser would be broken if he had a combo game and kill confirms out of grab. He doesn't have that stuff because his throws do high damage and he gets grabs so easily thanks to his massive dashgrab and pivot grab.

DK's grab power is at least kept in check by his bad dashgrab. Bowser is also much better at killing than DK outside of ding dong, unless they're a character DK can gimp.

Bowser is not that much worse than DK, and he'd be too broken if he got the kind of buffs that DK got.

Yeah, Bowser is a solid mid-tier. But, I think they could nerf his raw power a bit and give him some combo throws. He doesn't even need kill confirms. At least, give him SOME combo throw.

 

[Dre89]

Yeah, Bowser is a solid mid-tier. But, I think they could nerf his raw power a bit and give him some combo throws. He doesn't even need kill confirms. At least, give him SOME combo throw.

He has uthrow-fair at low percents.

But really he doesn't combo throws when he already has high raw damage output. Transferring that damage output into combos would just mean his main form of damage-dealing would only work in specifc % windows and could be ruined by rage.

So for it to be buff it'd have to be a significant damage increase, but it'd be tough to balance because it's so easy for him to get grabs.

 

[S_B]

Bowser would be broken if he had a combo game and kill confirms out of grab. He doesn't have that stuff because his throws do high damage and he gets grabs so easily thanks to his massive dashgrab and pivot grab.

DK's grab power is at least kept in check by his bad dashgrab. Bowser is also much better at killing than DK outside of ding dong, unless they're a character DK can gimp.

Bowser is not that much worse than DK, and he'd be too broken if he got the kind of buffs that DK got.

The problem is that, for all his raw power, Bowser needs a read to actually get anything accomplished, in a metagame that does a fantastic job of not giving him one.

I don't want to derail this discussion, though, and it's been talked about at length here: http://smashboards.com/threads/where-does-bowser-currently-stack-up-in-the-metagame.420987/

I'm just not afraid of overpowering Bowser so long DK's tools are very strong and he still hasn't really climbed into A-tier (though I absolutely want him to).

I mean, DK has...
-A spammable B-air with next to no landing lag
-A shield breaking option (that is nowhere near as punishable as Bowser's bomb)
-Amazing aerial mobility, allowing him to leap in quickly and catch enemies off guard (especially with that Bair which is also a godsend for ledgeguarding), which also allows him to drift in and out of range of attacks at the ledge for better recovery
-A cargo throw that allows him to carry someone off the side of the stage and then either attempt to stage spike them or throw them off the side of the screen while being much closer to it
-The ding-dong, or any number of obscenely damaging u-throw followups (he has a 67% combo on Ike that M2K found!)
-A chargeable KO option with super armor on it
-A great poke with Dtilt
-4 moves that spike, none of which require DK to SD in the process

...And for all of this, I still don't even see M2K regularly taking tournaments with him.

As someone mentioned in one of the Bowser threads, there's no point in feeling bad about the potential for DK, Bowser or any HWs to be OP.

People played Diddy without remorse, and they still play Sheik, ZSS, and Rosaluma without even a hint of feeling bad for playing characters that should probably all be toned down a great deal.

I hope they keep adding ding-dongs, combo throws, and whatever else they can to HWs to make them viable at competitive level without being OP in casual play.

One day, I hope this game is so well balanced that Evo's grand finals could come down to a battle of DK vs. D3 and no one would find it unusual (though, I'm not holding my breath for that...).

They're so fun to play but their design has always been so flawed. I think they need to completely rethink heavies, honestly.

I think the real problem is that there's only so much a game developer can do with an archetype like heavy characters in a game that's primarily designed for a casual audience who will treat it like a party game.

In essence, we've ALWAYS been trying to fit a square peg through a round hole when it comes to turning SSB into a competitive game, but again, I feel like Smash 4 has tried the hardest of any of the games yet (though that doesn't really say much).

I'm not a huge fan of throw followups as a means of balancing, but at the very least, a throw followup is something a competitive player will know how to use when a casual player won't. It's essentially an "advanced tech" hiding in plain sight.

But I can definitely see where you're coming from about heavies and design. The real trouble is, IMO, not even the heavies themselves but the fact that he best characters in the game completely negate their advantages.

Heavies are designed with the idea that a character will survive longer and hit harder, dealing more damage with each hit. This looks great on paper, but the key problem is that SSB4 has COMBOS in it, and if a heavyweight is more susceptible to combos, then it tends to negate a huge chunk of the justification for their moves being generally slower. That's one strike against heavies.

The second (and arguably worse) strike is that the best defense in SSB4 is typically a good offense: characters that can throw out quick attacks in rapid succession can make it very, VERY difficult to counterattack them (ie better frame data). Again, this is where SSB4 being a casual game at heart hinders the competitive side because things like super armor could go a long way toward making heavies balanced in competitive but would make them godly in casual, so they clearly can't do THAT, either...

TBH, though, I think the biggest buff to heavies would be a nerf to some of the higher tiers that give them (and most other characters) so much trouble. Characters like Sheik and ZSS are as strong as they are because they can put out a such a powerful offense while having to risk very little. Even just adding a few frames of endlag to some of their moves, especially the highly powerful ones (and they did this for Diddy's Uair), might make the spread between the tiers much smaller and make heavies HUGELY more viable.

 

[Xandercosm]

The problem is that, for all his raw power, Bowser needs a read to actually get anything accomplished, in a metagame that does a fantastic job of not giving him one.

I don't want to derail this discussion, though, and it's been talked about at length here: http://smashboards.com/threads/where-does-bowser-currently-stack-up-in-the-metagame.420987/

I'm just not afraid of overpowering Bowser so long DK's tools are very strong and he still hasn't really climbed into A-tier (though I absolutely want him to).

I mean, DK has...
-A spammable B-air with next to no landing lag
-A shield breaking option (that is nowhere near as punishable as Bowser's bomb)
-Amazing aerial mobility, allowing him to leap in quickly and catch enemies off guard (especially with that Bair which is also a godsend for ledgeguarding), which also allows him to drift in and out of range of attacks at the ledge for better recovery
-A cargo throw that allows him to carry someone off the side of the stage and then either attempt to stage spike them or throw them off the side of the screen while being much closer to it
-The ding-dong, or any number of obscenely damaging u-throw followups (he has a 67% combo on Ike that M2K found!)
-A chargeable KO option with super armor on it
-A great poke with Dtilt
-4 moves that spike, none of which require DK to SD in the process

...And for all of this, I still don't even see M2K regularly taking tournaments with him.

As someone mentioned in one of the Bowser threads, there's no point in feeling bad about the potential for DK, Bowser or any HWs to be OP.

People played Diddy without remorse, and they still play Sheik, ZSS, and Rosaluma without even a hint of feeling bad for playing characters that should probably all be toned down a great deal.

I hope they keep adding ding-dongs, combo throws, and whatever else they can to HWs to make them viable at competitive level without being OP in casual play.

One day, I hope this game is so well balanced that Evo's grand finals could come down to a battle of DK vs. D3 and no one would find it unusual (though, I'm not holding my breath for that...).



I think the real problem is that there's only so much a game developer can do with an archetype like heavy characters in a game that's primarily designed for a casual audience who will treat it like a party game.

In essence, we've ALWAYS been trying to fit a square peg through a round hole when it comes to turning SSB into a competitive game, but again, I feel like Smash 4 has tried the hardest of any of the games yet (though that doesn't really say much).

I'm not a huge fan of throw followups as a means of balancing, but at the very least, a throw followup is something a competitive player will know how to use when a casual player won't. It's essentially an "advanced tech" hiding in plain sight.

But I can definitely see where you're coming from about heavies and design. The real trouble is, IMO, not even the heavies themselves but the fact that he best characters in the game completely negate their advantages.

Heavies are designed with the idea that a character will survive longer and hit harder, dealing more damage with each hit. This looks great on paper, but the key problem is that SSB4 has COMBOS in it, and if a heavyweight is more susceptible to combos, then it tends to negate a huge chunk of the justification for their moves being generally slower. That's one strike against heavies.

The second (and arguably worse) strike is that the best defense in SSB4 is typically a good offense: characters that can throw out quick attacks in rapid succession can make it very, VERY difficult to counterattack them (ie better frame data). Again, this is where SSB4 being a casual game at heart hinders the competitive side because things like super armor could go a long way toward making heavies balanced in competitive but would make them godly in casual, so they clearly can't do THAT, either...

TBH, though, I think the biggest buff to heavies would be a nerf to some of the higher tiers that give them (and most other characters) so much trouble. Characters like Sheik and ZSS are as strong as they are because they can put out a such a powerful offense while having to risk very little. Even just adding a few frames of endlag to some of their moves, especially the highly powerful ones (and they did this for Diddy's Uair), might make the spread between the tiers much smaller and make heavies HUGELY more viable.

I really like that last idea. I think they clearly need nerfs. It's as if they DESIGNED them to be top tiers. On another note, I like the point you made about not making heavies OP in casual play. Casual play is something we don't usually think about but it's important because it determines wether Nintendo will change a character or not. I CHEW through FG with Bowser 'cause casuals have no idea how to fight him so they just get destroyed by his laggy, yet powerful moves. It's really a difficult balance. I'm not sure what the solution would be other than to give HWs buffs that casuals can't take advantage of like what they did with DK. It's just that it's a bit more complicated for Bowser.

 

[Dre89]

Heavies by design are simple characters. You can't make them too good otherwise it becomes unhealthy because then you have a pre-patch Luigi situation where you have characters that are too good for easy they are to play.

Heavies shouldn't be top tiers. That's the price they should play for being simple characters.

Bowser and DK both have enough tools now. They both lose neutral frame data wise, but have the tools to win it if they're unpredictable or if they predict correctly. They also have enough reward that they can lose neutral more times than their opponent and still take the stock first.

I don't mind Bowser being a little bit worse than DK, because he's simpler. If you're new to both characters, it'll take a bit of time before your DK surpasses your Bowser because he's more complex and needs to mix his options up in neutral more.

 

[S_B]

I really like that last idea. I think they clearly need nerfs. It's as if they DESIGNED them to be top tiers.

Yeah, and the silly part of it is that all of the top tiers have aspects to them that they could nerf and effect casual play very little. For example, no casual player is going to be performing Sheik's tinder combo (fair, fair, fair, etc.), just like no casual player is going to connect two of ZSS' uairs and follow it up with an up+B.

I'm not sure what the solution would be other than to give HWs buffs that casuals can't take advantage of like what they did with DK. It's just that it's a bit more complicated for Bowser.

That's unfortunately why I find myself shrugging and saying, "Grab followup?" in this situation. It's practically the only thing casuals won't ever take advantage of, unless they add more Street Fighter like moves.

They DEFINITELY consciously gave this to DK, just as they consciously took it AWAY from Luigi.

There are other hypothetical ways to make heavyweights better: make strict but usable requirements for them to be able to remove/reduce landing lag on aerials, reduce the knockback on certain moves to make them non-obvious combos, etc.

But throw followups just come across as the hardest to land while still being the most valuable to the competitive scene, for better or worse.

Heavies by design are simple characters. You can't make them too good otherwise it becomes unhealthy

I completely disagree with this.

A character's weight class says very little about how complicated they are to play. ROB is essentially a HW yet has a very complex and interesting metagame involving using his gyro to ledgeguard, for example. D3 has a similarly complex (though less successful) metagame with his gordos. Wario (who's also fairly heavy) has to play a VERY complex game of bizarre bike tricks, spacing and extending the waft's hitbox.

Being strong and powerful doesn't mean a character can't be complex. You just have to know where to hide the complexity so it doesn't influence casual play (aka throw followups).

Heavies shouldn't be top tiers. That's the price they should play for being simple characters.

First of all, top tier ideally shouldn't be a thing at all.

Second, by this logic, Pacman and DHD should be top tier because they easily have the most complex strategies and setups of any characters in this game (and are s**tloads of fun to watch on stream as a result), yet all of their complexities don't place them above ZSS' grab to Uair, Uair, Up+b for the kill.

Characters at top tier are there because they can generally secure kills more quickly, easily, and SAFELY than all of the characters below them on the tier list. The ding-dong rose DK a few tiers because it allows him to secure a kill relatively early and given the right conditions.

And why is the ding-dong so successful? Because it happens off of a GRAB, probably the fastest move for most HWs (I think most grabs are frame 9 or less), and if they can kill off of that, then most of their weaknesses balance out at that point: DK being able to live a long time actually means more than "You have to combo him one more time than most middleweights to kill him".

Without a kill throw or throw followup, all a grab means is that a heavy can do some damage to their opponent but still needs to get that precious read to actually kill them.

Again, I'd love for there to be some other way to buff heavies, but if a throw followup is the only thing that works, then bring it on, I say...

 

[Dre89]

Yeah, and the silly part of it is that all of the top tiers have aspects to them that they could nerf and effect casual play very little. For example, no casual player is going to be performing Sheik's tinder combo (fair, fair, fair, etc.), just like no casual player is going to connect two of ZSS' uairs and follow it up with an up+B.



That's unfortunately why I find myself shrugging and saying, "Grab followup?" in this situation. It's practically the only thing casuals won't ever take advantage of, unless they add more Street Fighter like moves.

They DEFINITELY consciously gave this to DK, just as they consciously took it AWAY from Luigi.

There are other hypothetical ways to make heavyweights better: make strict but usable requirements for them to be able to remove/reduce landing lag on aerials, reduce the knockback on certain moves to make them non-obvious combos, etc.

But throw followups just come across as the hardest to land while still being the most valuable to the competitive scene, for better or worse.



I completely disagree with this.

A character's weight class says very little about how complicated they are to play. ROB is essentially a HW yet has a very complex and interesting metagame involving using his gyro to ledgeguard, for example. D3 has a similarly complex (though less successful) metagame with his gordos. Wario (who's also fairly heavy) has to play a VERY complex game of bizarre bike tricks, spacing and extending the waft's hitbox.

Being strong and powerful doesn't mean a character can't be complex. You just have to know where to hide the complexity so it doesn't influence casual play (aka throw followups).



First of all, top tier ideally shouldn't be a thing at all.

Second, by this logic, Pacman and DHD should be top tier because they easily have the most complex strategies and setups of any characters in this game (and are s**tloads of fun to watch on stream as a result), yet all of their complexities don't place them above ZSS' grab to Uair, Uair, Up+b for the kill.

Characters at top tier are there because they can generally secure kills more quickly, easily, and SAFELY than all of the characters below them on the tier list. The ding-dong rose DK a few tiers because it allows him to secure a kill relatively early and given the right conditions.

And why is the ding-dong so successful? Because it happens off of a GRAB, probably the fastest move for most HWs (I think most grabs are frame 9 or less), and if they can kill off of that, then most of their weaknesses balance out at that point: DK being able to live a long time actually means more than "You have to combo him one more time than most middleweights to kill him".

Without a kill throw or throw followup, all a grab means is that a heavy can do some damage to their opponent but still needs to get that precious read to actually kill them.

Again, I'd love for there to be some other way to buff heavies, but if a throw followup is the only thing that works, then bring it on, I say...

When I said heavies are simple I just meant the superheavies like Bowser, DK, D3, Charizard and Ganondorf. Characters whose strength lies in using the range on their few good options, and the reward off those options. This is in contrast to characters like Sheik or Pika, whose strength is in their speed and the abundance of options they have at any given time. Pseudo-heavies like Rob and Jr. are more complex and generally have more viable options at any given time, but as a result have lower reward on-hit.

DK and Bowser don't need buffs because they have the tools to force the prediction game in neutral, and both get enough reward for getting in that it makes up for losing neutral more often than not. They also kill pre100 with fast options. They don't need stuff like fsmash reads to get kills that early. DK has grab, and Bowser has several ways to kill you before 100 with options that are frame 11 or faster.

That's the problem with the other heavies. Charizard doesn't kill early enough with reliable options to compensate for how much he loses neutral. Ganondorf has high reward if he gets advantage, but against people who play defensive he has virtually no way to force commitments than he can predict/punish. So his neutral is effectively non-existent. D3 is just too bad in every area. Too bad in neutral because of his speed and frame data, not enough reward in advantage or on-hit, and cannot kill anywhere near early enough to make up for it.

 

[Green L]

Why does it always have to be from a GRAB in sm4sh? Why not a combo from a tilt or aerial, something original? I don't play much competitive smash 4 since the luigi nerf but I noticed how repetitive and grab happy other characters are. Mario, diddy, Shiek, Donkey Kong etc. What's wrong with setting the example and NOT being so grab dependent like ryu, peach, pac man?

 

[Xandercosm]

Why does it always have to be from a GRAB in sm4sh? Why not a combo from a tilt or aerial, something original? I don't play much competitive smash 4 since the luigi nerf but I noticed how repetitive and grab happy other characters are. Mario, diddy, Shiek, Donkey Kong etc. What's wrong with setting the example and NOT being so grab dependent like ryu, peach, pac man?

That's a REALLY good point. Imagine if Bowser could start a combo off something else? I don't know what it would be but that would make it even harder for casuals to take advantage of it. In Melee, not every combo was started from a grab. I dunno, but this sounds interesting to me...

 

[S_B]

When I said heavies are simple I just meant the superheavies like Bowser, DK, D3, Charizard and Ganondorf.

And I maintain that these characters still have plenty of depth and complexity to them but lack the tools needed to compete, and they're absolutely not alone as plenty of mid-low tiers are middle to lightweight.

Tier placement has nothing to do with complexity or weight, but EVERYTHING to do with the toolkit of the character and how many answers it provides for different situations.

Rosalina isn't a particularly fast character, but she's a character who has ANSWERS to most any situation.

DK and Bowser don't need buffs because they have the tools to force the prediction game in neutral, and both get enough reward for getting in that it makes up for losing neutral more often than not. They also kill pre100 with fast options. They don't need stuff like fsmash reads to get kills that early. DK has grab, and Bowser has several ways to kill you before 100 with options that are frame 11 or faster.

Whether you want to say they don't need buffs OR the top tiers receive some nerfs is up to you, but they're definitely not as competitive as they could be. The only thing holding DK back may very well be the prevalence of Sheik/ZSS, but Bowser is non-competitive for other reasons.

DK doesn't currently have the tools to "force a prediction" against the top tiers which is probably due to them being a bit overpowered (nor does Bowser or other heavies, but again, wrong forum). He DOES have the tools to make them fear being grabbed a bit, but again, the overall ability of these characters to play aggressively and still be safe means they can go a long way toward ensuring DK never gets that grab (or never gets enough damage on them to confirm the KO off of it).

Why does it always have to be from a GRAB in sm4sh? Why not a combo from a tilt or aerial, something original? I don't play much competitive smash 4 since the luigi nerf but I noticed how repetitive and grab happy other characters are. Mario, diddy, Shiek, Donkey Kong etc. What's wrong with setting the example and NOT being so grab dependent like ryu, peach, pac man?

That'd be fine, too, so long as it doesn't effect casual play. It's just probably easier to ensure a grab can be followed up with a throw since you always have the same starting point from throws.

 

[Green L]

Donkey kong may be a good character but he's a one trick pony and he that's why he shouldn't be the example for heavyweights. Without the cargo up throw he's no different from the rest of heavyweights. Why would anyone want their favorite character to be so reliant on one move that overshadows the rest of a character's tools like Dk's cargo up throw? Even pre nerf luigi had combos and kill confirms that vary depending on reading DI and character weight. Shouldn't you guys hope for heavyweights to have some combo potential without grabs so that you aren't screwed over if you can't do that one over centralizing move (Like DK Cargo Up Throw)?

 

[S_B]

Donkey kong may be a good character but he's a one trick pony and he that's why he shouldn't be the example for heavyweights. Without the cargo up throw he's no different from the rest of heavyweights. Why would anyone want their favorite character to be so reliant on one move that overshadows the rest of a character's tools like Dk's cargo up throw? Even pre nerf luigi had combos and kill confirms that vary depending on reading DI and character weight. Shouldn't you guys hope for heavyweights to have some combo potential without grabs so that you aren't screwed over if you can't do that one over centralizing move (Like DK Cargo Up Throw)?

The short answer is this: I'm not picky about how they make heavyweights competitive.

Again, we're playing a game that was designed to be played with four people, items, and stages with piles of ridiculous hazards. Sakurai is under no obligation to make every character (or even ANY character) competitive for the sake of tournament players.

Frankly, I think we're extremely lucky that either he or the team at Namco has seen fit to do anything to help balance the game at all. Remember, this isn't "League of Legends" or any other game where the developers pay close attention to balance, release proper patch notes, and specifically aim to ensure the game is well-liked by the competitive community.

If every HW gets a combo throw, so be it. It's not like the remainder of their moves are so identical that they would all play the same way. DK and Bowser have HUGE differences between them, mainly in that DK has super high aerial mobility and a lot of great aerials while Bowser is at his best while grounded. And the same differences exist between DK and every other heavyweight, mainly in their focus of how they rack damage, set up for confirms, etc.

Does it HAVE to be combo throws? No, but if it's a choice between having a combo throw or simply never being tournament viable, I'll take the combo throw for every single HW...

 

[Dre89]

The super heavies are simpler because their strength is in their data and not the fact that they have an abundance of options at any given time. They do more damage on-hit and take more to die, so they win trades.

What you guys are asking for is too unhealthy for game balance. Because of their range and higher reward on hit, heavies need to find it to land hits than other characters, which they already do. This is balanced if those heavies require less hits to win the stock, and can kill reliably earlier than other characters. Bowser and DK already do this.

You're basically asking for no drawbacks at all. Losing neutral is supposed to be the drawback to having better reward on attacks and early kill potential.

Also DK isn't just grab reward. He has a top tier bair, dash attack, pivot grab, jab and tilt set. He's extremely difficult to gimp after low percents and is one of the best gimpers in the game thanks to an aerial that both kills and frame traps defensive options off-stage.

He's balanced out by his disadvantage and his dependency on unpredictability or reads in neutral. Giving him or Bowser more stuff would just make them broken.

 

[Xandercosm]

Giving him or Bowser more stuff would just make them broken.

Against the likes of Sheik?

 

[S_B]

The super heavies are simpler because their strength is in their data and not the fact that they have an abundance of options at any given time.

...

You're basically asking for no drawbacks at all. Losing neutral is supposed to be the drawback to having better reward on attacks and early kill potential.

...

Giving him or Bowser more stuff would just make them broken.

Look, I don't mean any offense here, but what exactly is your basis of comparison for saying things like this?

Are you talking about CASUAL play? Because EVERYONE is balanced in casual play thanks to items, randomness and whatnot.

But if you're talking about COMPETITIVE play (and I assume you are as this entire forum is heavily tied to the competitive community and probably wouldn't be here without it), then WHAT are you basing these statements on?

Tournament results in no way, shape, or form corroborate what you're saying.

DK and Bowser aren't anywhere NEAR broken. None of the HWs are. If you want to argue that after the high tiers are toned down, DK might be reasonably viable at THAT point, that's at least believable but I'd still have to wait and see.

The characters you're talking about, for all their "strengths", still rarely break top 16 in most tournaments. DK, even in the hands of M2K, isn't taking tournaments on a regular basis, and M2K's native territory of Florida isn't filled with amazing Sheik/ZSS players.

Also, it's evident that M2K is kind of falling away from DK in favor of Mario at this point.

So again, if we were talking about characters like Mario or Sonic, both whom have taken games and even sets off of players like ZeRo, you could make a pretty solid argument as to why they shouldn't be buffed. While they're not TOP tier, they're definitely high tier at worst.

DK's combo throw didn't make him even start regularly taking local tournies. There's no basis for concern about him or any other heavyweight becoming overpowered until that starts happening...

 

[Dre89]

Look, I don't mean any offense here, but what exactly is your basis of comparison for saying things like this?

Are you talking about CASUAL play? Because EVERYONE is balanced in casual play thanks to items, randomness and whatnot.

But if you're talking about COMPETITIVE play (and I assume you are as this entire forum is heavily tied to the competitive community and probably wouldn't be here without it), then WHAT are you basing these statements on?

Tournament results in no way, shape, or form corroborate what you're saying.

DK and Bowser aren't anywhere NEAR broken. None of the HWs are. If you want to argue that after the high tiers are toned down, DK might be reasonably viable at THAT point, that's at least believable but I'd still have to wait and see.

The characters you're talking about, for all their "strengths", still rarely break top 16 in most tournaments. DK, even in the hands of M2K, isn't taking tournaments on a regular basis, and M2K's native territory of Florida isn't filled with amazing Sheik/ZSS players.

Also, it's evident that M2K is kind of falling away from DK in favor of Mario at this point.

So again, if we were talking about characters like Mario or Sonic, both whom have taken games and even sets off of players like ZeRo, you could make a pretty solid argument as to why they shouldn't be buffed. While they're not TOP tier, they're definitely high tier at worst.

DK's combo throw didn't make him even start regularly taking local tournies. There's no basis for concern about him or any other heavyweight becoming overpowered until that starts happening...

I didn't say they're broken in their current state, I'm saying that DK and Bowser would become pre-patch Luigi-eqsue if they got significant buffs.

The problem with Luigi was that he was too simple to use for how effective he was. If DK and Bowser were buffed to be as good as the top tiers (or they got nerfed) people would be screaming for nerfs because it would take way less work to win with a heavy than a Sheik or Diddy.

It just sounds like want no drawbacks to playing heavies. DK and Bowser are already in that position where they can afford to lose neutral several times and still win the stock because they can easily kill you early. DK already has very good frame given his weight and power/reward. Bowser already moves that are incredibly fast given how early they kill, or that they set up other kill moves. Bowser's Lower grab reward is balanced out by the fact that it's easy to get grabs as him thanks to dashgrab outspacing several hitboxes and because he's much better at killing early then DK without ding dong.

DK already has several top 16 results. Bowser has no rep, but now that King Kong has started playing Sm4sh he gets top 5 placings in 50-100 man tourneys, losing to people like Ally and Holy. I don't understand what buffs you think they deserve that would be healthy for balance.

 

[S_B]

It just sounds like want no drawbacks to playing heavies.

If I wanted NO drawbacks to playing heavies, I'd have to be asking for:
-all of their moves to have faster startup and less endlag
-every HW to have a reliable projectile so they didn't get forced to approach
-super armor on half of their moves so they didn't get beat out by any move with better frame data
-a frame 3 combo-breaking Nair for every HW

Without the ding-dong, DK was hot garbage, but even with it, he's not some broken, unstoppable force like you seem to think he is.

Having a difficult time confirming into KOs is NOT the only weakness of HW characters, and frankly, it should never have been one of their weaknesses to start with.

Again, there's a COLOSSAL difference between "broken" (which no character in this game is) and "not total ****", and giving every HW a throw followup isn't going to come even close to breaking them, but may make some of them competitive.

DK already has several top 16 results. Bowser has no rep, but now that King Kong has started playing Sm4sh he gets top 5 placings in 50-100 man tourneys, losing to people like Ally and Holy. I don't understand what buffs you think they deserve that would be healthy for balance.

The buffs that would make DK, D3, Bowser and any other HW just as likely to appear in grand finals of national tournaments as any other top tier.

And no, I'm not saying that there aren't OTHER characters that also need buffs, but there's absolutely no reason a balance cannot be struck that will make HWs just as tournament viable as any other high tier.

Again, there are also some characters that definitely need nerfs as well, but there are many who still need buffs even in the face of that (especially HWs).

 

[Green L]

I didn't say they're broken in their current state, I'm saying that DK and Bowser would become pre-patch Luigi-eqsue if they got significant buffs.

The problem with Luigi was that he was too simple to use for how effective he was. If DK and Bowser were buffed to be as good as the top tiers (or they got nerfed) people would be screaming for nerfs because it would take way less work to win with a heavy than a Sheik or Diddy.

Dk is even more linear and simple than luigi.
Cargo up throw is only reason why Dk is "good". Pre nerf luigi had that good balance of strengths and weaknesses unfortunately this community whined for nerfs instead of learning to not be so predictable with di and actually exploit luigi's crippling flaws. He was so overrated that for a supposed top tier, he had many bad matchups and little results.

There's at least a 15 way tie on which characters are easy to play

 

[Dre89]

Dk is even more linear and simple than luigi.
Cargo up throw is only reason why Dk is "good". Pre nerf luigi had that good balance of strengths and weaknesses unfortunately this community whined for nerfs instead of learning to not be so predictable with di and actually exploit luigi's crippling flaws. He was so overrated that for a supposed top tier, he had many bad matchups and little results.

There's at least a 15 way tie on which characters are easy to play

Luigi was way worse because his neutral was way more oppressive and one-dimensional. His neutral disadvantage and advantage were all far too good for how simple his tools were to use in those situations.


His neutral was oppressive because could just spam fireball and grab. Fireball beat everything and shielding it was punishable by grab. His dashgrab and pivot grab have good range and are really fast for how much reward they have.

His disadvantage is good too because he's hard to combo due to his floatiness and nair.

Then he had his advantaged state where he had massive grab reward, and too much damage on hit considering he has the best frame data in the game. Seriously why does bair do 14%.

DK is gated by his bad neutral and disadvantage. He also struggles much more at getting grabs against defensive opponents. Luigi didn't have these issues. He was strong in all states of gameplay and it was too simple to do. He was basically everyone's best character.

 

[Green L]

His neutral was oppressive because could just spam fireball and grab. Fireball beat everything and shielding it was punishable by grab.

Further proof that this community doesn't know jack squat about luigi. Fireball<grab isn't legit. It hasn't been since day 1. It never was a reliable set up. That's actually very unreliable. Only idiots get caught by that really slow and predictable move Do that and you'll eat a smash attack in the face.

.Fireball beat everything and shielding it was punishable by grab

Have you heard of reflectors, absorb, crouch, crawl, PERFECTSHIELD, jump, spotdodge, or the easiest of all of them, JAB. Every character can jab the fireballs and they disappear. You got that backwards. Fireballs were punishable by everything.

His disadvantage is good too because he's hard to combo due to his floatiness and nair.

Once again you got that backward. Luigi is easy to combo because of his pathetic airspeed.

Luigi was way worse because his neutral was way more oppressive and one-dimensional. His neutral disadvantage and advantage were all far too good for how simple his tools were to use in those situations.

This further proves my point on pre nerf luigi being massively overrated. If that were true, he'd be the best character in the game and luigi's winning nationals everywhere.

He was strong in all states of gameplay and it was too simple to do. He was basically everyone's best character.

Once again, overrated. See the previous reply on why that's wrong

Seriously why does bair do 14%.

So it's ok for sonic, robin, and ness?
You didn't to mention his many crippling weaknesses, very few results and bad matchups before luigi was nerfed into a lesser mario. Your lack of knowledge of luigi just shows how this community didn't learn to adapt to the character but choose to complain about it instead, limiting a character's abilities for personal gain. But this thread is about heavyweights so I'll stop talking about luigi.
The most underrated heavyweight has to be ganon. He has good frame data for a character of his archetype and can finish a stock under 80%

 

[Xandercosm]

Well, the thing is, HWs need a buff one way or another. They have too little reward for their weaknesses. And there's no way that you could say if Bowser had (hypothetically) an U-throw to Fair combo that was much more reliable and worked at almost all percents he'd be broken. It's just a way to get damage in. Even if he had a kill confirm, does that really make up for his weaknesses enough that he would be "broken"?

Just because the concept of HWs currently might make sense on paper, doesn't mean it works for competitive play. Just because bowser can afford to lose neutral more than his opponent doesn't mean he'd be some unstoppable beast with a couple small buffs. I mean, look what they did with Bowser in Project M. He's got super armor on, like, ALL of his moves and GIGANTIC hitboxes. Nobody ever complains about PM Bowser being overpowered, though.

In my opinion, a throw followup is actually really workable. It would give Bowser something competitive that very few casuals could consistently take advantage of and it wouldn't make Bowser "broken" by any means. It would just give the poor guy SOMETHING competitive to work with.

At the end of the day, if a character's strengths don't outweigh their weaknesses, they need a buff. Simple as that.

 

[S_B]

Just because bowser can afford to lose neutral more than his opponent doesn't mean he'd be some unstoppable beast with a couple small buffs

The other thing here that I keep forgetting to mention is that, when someone loses the neutral to Bowser, they get 15-20% damage added to them on average.

When DK, Bowser or any big body "loses the neutral" to the wrong character, they can expect to walk away with anywhere from 50-70% damage tacked onto them.

And it is SOOOO much easier to lose the neutral as a HW because of the generally slower frame data, the lack of reliable projectiles and the fact that HWs get pressured into approaching most of the time.

 

[Xandercosm]

So, yeah, it's hard to make an argument for HWs not getting buffs.

 

[Dre89]

Bowser having a consistent uthrow fair would be fine. But having a uair confirm out of grab would be too strong because he gets grabs too easily, or they'd have to nerf his grab ranges.

I can kind of understand people asking for Bowser buffs. But I can't believe people still think DK needs buffs. I get the impression these people can't do his grab combos or bair properly. There's no way DK needs buffs. He does 50% off a grab and kills at 70 with another one.

The other thing here that I keep forgetting to mention is that, when someone loses the neutral to Bowser, they get 15-20% damage added to them on average.

When DK, Bowser or any big body "loses the neutral" to the wrong character, they can expect to walk away with anywhere from 50-70% damage tacked onto them.

And it is SOOOO much easier to lose the neutral as a HW because of the generally slower frame data, the lack of reliable projectiles and the fact that HWs get pressured into approaching most of the time.

They'll take 50-70% at low percents. After you've been combod to mid percents you should be DIing to avoid combos.

 

[S_B]

Bowser having a consistent uthrow fair would be fine. But having a uair confirm out of grab would be too strong because he gets grabs too easily, or they'd have to nerf his grab ranges

It's easier than you'd think to not get grabbed by Bowser. When he dashes away from you, odds are that he's going to go for a pivot grab so you can simply not be there when he does that.

Other than that, if you think Bowser is going for a grab, just make sure there's a hitbox there first and he won't get it.

That said, I'd be fine with something else confirming into a kill (like a guaranteed jab > something).

But I can't believe people still think DK needs buffs. I get the impression these people can't do his grab combos or bair properly. There's no way DK needs buffs. He does 50% off a grab and kills at 70 with another one

I'm of the opinion that they should probably do the primary nerfing they're going to do before buffing DK because, yes, he DOES get an awful lot off of a grab, and he has some amazing aerial options in general.

The problem is that none of it seems to matter all that much in the grand scheme of things as DK isn't really tearing up the tiers...

They'll take 50-70% at low percents. After you've been combod to mid percents you should be DIing to avoid combos.

Depends on the character. Some can continue racking combo damage well after 70% (like Sheik).

But the real problem is that this combo damage is basically negating the primary advantage of being heavy. It means jack squat how heavy you are when an opponent can invalidate all of your extra weight after 1-2 confirms.

They could also solve this by making combos on heavies harder to pull off, either by giving heavies a fast nair that will allow them to escape, or by making each successive move a player is hit by in the air give more and more DI to the victim.

 

[Dre89]

It's easier than you'd think to not get grabbed by Bowser. When he dashes away from you, odds are that he's going to go for a pivot grab so you can simply not be there when he does that.

Other than that, if you think Bowser is going for a grab, just make sure there's a hitbox there first and he won't get it.

That said, I'd be fine with something else confirming into a kill (like a guaranteed jab > something).



I'm of the opinion that they should probably do the primary nerfing they're going to do before buffing DK because, yes, he DOES get an awful lot off of a grab, and he has some amazing aerial options in general.

The problem is that none of it seems to matter all that much in the grand scheme of things as DK isn't really tearing up the tiers...



Depends on the character. Some can continue racking combo damage well after 70% (like Sheik).

But the real problem is that this combo damage is basically negating the primary advantage of being heavy. It means jack squat how heavy you are when an opponent can invalidate all of your extra weight after 1-2 confirms.

They could also solve this by making combos on heavies harder to pull off, either by giving heavies a fast nair that will allow them to escape, or by making each successive move a player is hit by in the air give more and more DI to the victim.

Bowser's dashgrab range is so long that it'll outspace many hitboxes. That's why he's so good at getting grabs, and why his grab reward has to be kept in check.

DK has gotten several top 16 results, many of those with players who put little time into the character.

 

[S_B]

Bowser's dashgrab range is so long that it'll outspace many hitboxes. That's why he's so good at getting grabs, and why his grab reward has to be kept in check.

Then like I said, give him guaranteed combos off of jab.

DK has gotten several top 16 results, many of those with players who put little time into the character.

...And that's still not very impressive.

Let me know when DK is in the top 8 of Evo, or better yet, when he friggin' TAKES an Evo...

There seems to be this sentiment that characters like ZSS and Sheik are just going to be top tier and HWs like DK should be happy placing top 16.

SCREW that! Why is it fine for light, fast characters to always be on top but HWs are relegated to being general crap, so much so that we celebrate them cracking the top 16?

Go look at any other fighting game that's being actively balanced by the devs: this kind of disparity usually doesn't exist. Traditional "heavy" characters can still be competitive, and there's no reason they can't be in SSB as well (no reason aside from Sakurai not caring, I mean).