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I've got a question... Why exactly is Ness low tier???!!?!??
- Thread starter Justblaze647
- Start date
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm probably the first Ness player on this board who'll say what he has problems are (and it causes arguments between me and whoever, lol). I just don't see why his approach is so limited. I mean, when you say that, you're comparing his approach to the rest of the cast. By saying it's limited, I think of every character's general approach, and being "limited" should be putting him somewhere near the lower end for approach. Most characters who have a generally better approach are just faster or they're really that good in the first place. I don't see why Ness's approach is the thing that you say holds him back instead of any of the other issues that were named.
Also, yeah, his range sucks, and is probably the only reason why I stopped maining him. Secondary'd.
... Hurrah, work.
Also, yeah, his range sucks, and is probably the only reason why I stopped maining him. Secondary'd.
Why not? If you can launch him forward with a PK Fire, it's an approach right? If it's not the safest approach, that's fine then - but that's still an approach. If it hits, you're now right in front of your opponent who is trying to DI your fire (but probably won't in time because hitting them from the top helps to keep them in longer), and you're free to follow-up. Why isn't it an approach, though?
... Hurrah, work.
PK Jump is a valid approach, even if it is situational (since it's easily punishable if done at the wrong time)
Blad01
Smash Lord
SH Fair to DJ Nair is very hard to punish... :/
Gaussis
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2008
- Messages
- 903
DJ anything is very hard to punish.
He has ground approaches too. Dash attack has a long attack range on the ground (not sure if PKF has more range, though). Usmash can work on spotdodgers and shielding opponents just as well. Finally, you can just dash-grab (which goes a bit far, if you haven't noticed).
Now for special move approaches, he only has two. These are PKF (using PK Jump) and PKT2. While PKT2 is generally an unsafe approach, you can use it on opponents near the edge of a platform/stage for both shield pressure and safety. PK Jump is difficult to punish if used correctly plus it forces the opponent on the defensive (unless of course, you can DI out of the pillar without getting virtually any punishment, which is not possible).
If he had the problem, he would be deserving of low tier. Approaches are not the case.
@ Ralph: We need someone to argue against. We can't be right all the time can we?
Great. Now we're going to argue over something he doesn't have problems with. How is Ness limited in approaching? Just because his range is short? Um, fair (his safest attack) can be retreated, meaning no shieldgrab. Nair comes out on frame 4 and 2 can be used in one short hop (heck, you can combine a fair and nair for kicks in one SH). Bair is generally safe on shield (stuns very well and pushes opponents away). Dair is a surprising approach that can hurt if you let go of the shield too early (and it autocancels, or at least it looks like one). And those were just the aerials.
He has ground approaches too. Dash attack has a long attack range on the ground (not sure if PKF has more range, though). Usmash can work on spotdodgers and shielding opponents just as well. Finally, you can just dash-grab (which goes a bit far, if you haven't noticed).
Now for special move approaches, he only has two. These are PKF (using PK Jump) and PKT2. While PKT2 is generally an unsafe approach, you can use it on opponents near the edge of a platform/stage for both shield pressure and safety. PK Jump is difficult to punish if used correctly plus it forces the opponent on the defensive (unless of course, you can DI out of the pillar without getting virtually any punishment, which is not possible).
If he had the problem, he would be deserving of low tier. Approaches are not the case.
@ Ralph: We need someone to argue against. We can't be right all the time can we?
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Good linking there, Gimpyfish. I listened to this one recently. It was good stuff. I also appreciated your other one with having a proper mindset. Thanks, Gimpyfish. It's time to be more confident and just get in there and do my best! "Let's do this!" should be my attitude.
goodkid
Smash Lord
Ness doesn't have that much trouble approaching. If you space his aerials really well or DJ cancel them, you won't get shieldgrabed. I personally don't approach w/ fair much because its not his best, I use fair for defense. Bair, Nair in one short hop is much better. Dair does auto-cancel at the proper height, so it can lead into another aerial/grab/whatever.
Metal~Mario
Smash Lord
Isn't Ness just as vunerable as his PK Thunder orb during his up-b
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Okay to clear things up. Wario DOES have worse gab problems than Ness (second him. SOMETIMES)
Infinites on: Yoshi, ZSS regardless of Double jump, once you get grabbed, game over.
Kinda Infinites: G-dorf and Bowser. If you time it (really hard thankfully) the 2 lugs can grab Wario out of his jump and infi-**** him.
Semi infinites: Ike, Peach, C.F, Zelda.
They can infinite if he uses his double jump.
Also Wario has MUCH worse grab releases than Ness. Every character on the above can aerial, SMASH, or tilt Wario. Sucks I know, but what can you do. Wario's grab release is more ****** up than Ness/Lucas.
Point 2. I know for a FACT that Wario is a better character than Ness, no amount of grab problems will change that. I also agree with alot of what raphael has to say. Im happy with Ness being top of low or bottom mid.
Point 3. Michael Jackson (Marth) DG didn't put Ness in low.
Infinites on: Yoshi, ZSS regardless of Double jump, once you get grabbed, game over.
Kinda Infinites: G-dorf and Bowser. If you time it (really hard thankfully) the 2 lugs can grab Wario out of his jump and infi-**** him.
Semi infinites: Ike, Peach, C.F, Zelda.
They can infinite if he uses his double jump.
Also Wario has MUCH worse grab releases than Ness. Every character on the above can aerial, SMASH, or tilt Wario. Sucks I know, but what can you do. Wario's grab release is more ****** up than Ness/Lucas.
Point 2. I know for a FACT that Wario is a better character than Ness, no amount of grab problems will change that. I also agree with alot of what raphael has to say. Im happy with Ness being top of low or bottom mid.
Point 3. Michael Jackson (Marth) DG didn't put Ness in low.
thesage
Smash Hero
Who's dg.
I've played Azen. That's my feel of the matchup with Lucario. I can't really argue matchups that well since Brawl is mostly about reading your opponent. From what I've read, they say aura sphere and Lucario's f-smash is his main tools in this matchup, which is dead wrong.
Ness IS bad at approaching. What makes up for that is that he's able to punish a lot of characters for attacks that are not that laggy. What usually costs him in a matchup is when a character forces him to approach. This is why the Snake matchup is bad. Fuxin grenades. Luckily Ness has tools that help him with that problem, psi magnet, pk thunder (the projectile not the thunder), somewhat of a punishing game.
Ness also has a pretty good u-tilt. It beats out lots of attacks (the list I posted is when hitboxes come out on the same frame and are properly spaced for both characters, so Ness would be winning a lot more since his u-tilt has range). It really helps his defensive game. Plus the fact that he can follow up f-throw with pkt is helpful, adding power to his sheildgrabs.
Ness players need to be really good at reading their opponents. This is just how his character works. I know that every player should read their opponent, but I mean that Ness has tools that compliment this.
IMO pk fire djc (not the melee type, the brawl type where you dj off the ground) used safely is his best approach. It destroys huge opponents.
Grab release is not a problem in most matchups since most characters that have a grab release on him have better options from grab. ROB IMO has the most devastating cg as it leads to edgeguarding.
There are a couple of DK players here. That's just my opinion of the matchup as I know they are better players than me, yet I'm able to beat them, and I know they've gotten some Ness practice (more practice than I have against DK...)
You don't want ROB in the air.
T. Link: what does his other matchups have to do with his Ness matchup? Ness has an easy time avoiding T.Link's projectiles. T.Link has problems killing. Ness doesn't. Ness' uair beats Dair. T.Link is one of the few characters that Ness has an easier time ****** his recovery than his opponent does ****** his. I might just be playing bad t.link's but w/e. If you think so I'll post a video of them playing each other...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKPf4tPiIWs
I usually beat meta**** but Lobos and me went even last time we were playing...
You should be able to jump break out of bowser's stuff.
Jiggs didn't **** Ness in melee. AT ALL. At lower levels of play yes. But when you get to higher levels of play and you realize that fair combos in to fair and then you just land two bairs on her you get her at a killing percent >_>; Just try to get as much damage on yourself from attacks that don't lead into rest so that you don't have to worry about rest anymore...
No I'm not talking to other boards about matchup advice. All the knowledge I get is from my own personal experience. I learned a long time ago that trying to learn anything other than basic techs from swf is hopeless. Everything I find that could evolve I post, but otherwise I just look at what other people are saying.
A lot of other characters have worse MK matchups. Characters that aren't already horribly bad that I can think of are DK, T.Link, Zelda, Sheik, Pit. People say DK is a counter to MK? That's as ridiculous as MK having some **** combo on DK (which he does, involving everybody's favorite move, the tornado). I have some sort of idea of the MK matchup as I 2nd him. I think it's worse than 60-40 but w/e.
The majority of the Olimar board (as most, if not all, character specific boards on SWF including this one) are a bunch of theorycrafters that have gone to 0 tournaments and played their little brother's Ness. Almost all of Olimar's moves are simply outprioritized by Ness' attacks. All has is his grab. I actually think Olimar, while being fun to play, is one of the worst characters in the game simply because of his matchups. I've never actually played against another olimar, but I 3rd him so w/e.
Ike doesn't have a defensive game.
Even if I used another character, I wouldn't be able to adapt his playstyle enough for every MK I encountered. I just can't handle repetitiveness like that. I'm lucky MK and Marth are actually becoming less popular in my area cuz people are tired of being gay. Besides, who else can I cp? MK ditto. I suck at dittos period. Oilmar vs. MK? Not in a million years.
In short: Is Ness a top tier character? NO. Of course not. IMO he's middle of middle tier. In the long run I don't care cuz I'll still play and I'd still play him in tournaments, even in melee. I'm content with getting 13th or w/e in melee. It's not like I could beat chudat anyways, nvm the other poeple here who are (or were) amazing at melee.
Blargh, I didn't respond to anything, and this'll be my last post about this proabably. I kinda dislike posting about matchups now since it really should all come from your own experience unless there's some really gay thing about the matchup.
I've played Azen. That's my feel of the matchup with Lucario. I can't really argue matchups that well since Brawl is mostly about reading your opponent. From what I've read, they say aura sphere and Lucario's f-smash is his main tools in this matchup, which is dead wrong.
Ness IS bad at approaching. What makes up for that is that he's able to punish a lot of characters for attacks that are not that laggy. What usually costs him in a matchup is when a character forces him to approach. This is why the Snake matchup is bad. Fuxin grenades. Luckily Ness has tools that help him with that problem, psi magnet, pk thunder (the projectile not the thunder), somewhat of a punishing game.
Ness also has a pretty good u-tilt. It beats out lots of attacks (the list I posted is when hitboxes come out on the same frame and are properly spaced for both characters, so Ness would be winning a lot more since his u-tilt has range). It really helps his defensive game. Plus the fact that he can follow up f-throw with pkt is helpful, adding power to his sheildgrabs.
Ness players need to be really good at reading their opponents. This is just how his character works. I know that every player should read their opponent, but I mean that Ness has tools that compliment this.
IMO pk fire djc (not the melee type, the brawl type where you dj off the ground) used safely is his best approach. It destroys huge opponents.
Grab release is not a problem in most matchups since most characters that have a grab release on him have better options from grab. ROB IMO has the most devastating cg as it leads to edgeguarding.
There are a couple of DK players here. That's just my opinion of the matchup as I know they are better players than me, yet I'm able to beat them, and I know they've gotten some Ness practice (more practice than I have against DK...)
You don't want ROB in the air.
T. Link: what does his other matchups have to do with his Ness matchup? Ness has an easy time avoiding T.Link's projectiles. T.Link has problems killing. Ness doesn't. Ness' uair beats Dair. T.Link is one of the few characters that Ness has an easier time ****** his recovery than his opponent does ****** his. I might just be playing bad t.link's but w/e. If you think so I'll post a video of them playing each other...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKPf4tPiIWs
I usually beat meta**** but Lobos and me went even last time we were playing...
You should be able to jump break out of bowser's stuff.
Jiggs didn't **** Ness in melee. AT ALL. At lower levels of play yes. But when you get to higher levels of play and you realize that fair combos in to fair and then you just land two bairs on her you get her at a killing percent >_>; Just try to get as much damage on yourself from attacks that don't lead into rest so that you don't have to worry about rest anymore...
No I'm not talking to other boards about matchup advice. All the knowledge I get is from my own personal experience. I learned a long time ago that trying to learn anything other than basic techs from swf is hopeless. Everything I find that could evolve I post, but otherwise I just look at what other people are saying.
A lot of other characters have worse MK matchups. Characters that aren't already horribly bad that I can think of are DK, T.Link, Zelda, Sheik, Pit. People say DK is a counter to MK? That's as ridiculous as MK having some **** combo on DK (which he does, involving everybody's favorite move, the tornado). I have some sort of idea of the MK matchup as I 2nd him. I think it's worse than 60-40 but w/e.
The majority of the Olimar board (as most, if not all, character specific boards on SWF including this one) are a bunch of theorycrafters that have gone to 0 tournaments and played their little brother's Ness. Almost all of Olimar's moves are simply outprioritized by Ness' attacks. All has is his grab. I actually think Olimar, while being fun to play, is one of the worst characters in the game simply because of his matchups. I've never actually played against another olimar, but I 3rd him so w/e.
Ike doesn't have a defensive game.
Even if I used another character, I wouldn't be able to adapt his playstyle enough for every MK I encountered. I just can't handle repetitiveness like that. I'm lucky MK and Marth are actually becoming less popular in my area cuz people are tired of being gay. Besides, who else can I cp? MK ditto. I suck at dittos period. Oilmar vs. MK? Not in a million years.
In short: Is Ness a top tier character? NO. Of course not. IMO he's middle of middle tier. In the long run I don't care cuz I'll still play and I'd still play him in tournaments, even in melee. I'm content with getting 13th or w/e in melee. It's not like I could beat chudat anyways, nvm the other poeple here who are (or were) amazing at melee.
Blargh, I didn't respond to anything, and this'll be my last post about this proabably. I kinda dislike posting about matchups now since it really should all come from your own experience unless there's some really gay thing about the matchup.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Alright, those are problematic, I'll give you that. Two "for sure" infinites and two "kinda" infinites that is based on the opponent's skill. Wario probably shouldn't face Yoshi and ZSS (just as I would never face Marth with Ness... but I guess Marth vs. Ness is worse than Wario vs. those two without the infinite).
The other four... just don't double-jump around them. Wario does have lots of issues vs. those characters, but he's still what, high in High tier? You said it yourself - Wario definitely makes up for this on his own. I just don't see why people try to say something about Wario's grab-release problems but act like the Mother kids' issues aren't just as bad (I believe Ness/Lucas are affected by more characters, anyway).
Gaussis
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2008
- Messages
- 903
Now this is new. I kinda understand you but I believe this only happens when you use an approach against characters with longer range than you on the ground (Snake with his tilts, Marth but you shouldn't approach him anyway, maybe DDD). I always thought his punishing moves vastly outweighed his "bad approach" but I suppose you can say that.
I have a question about Snake, though. Can't you use PKT at first sign of the grenade, shield scrape him with PKT, and keep him in his shield until the grenade blows up? I have always wanted to try that on Snakes but haven't gotten the chance
.
AdmantNESS
Smash Ace
If you and the Snake are at a mid- to long distance apart I found you can shoot Pk Thunder and when Snake throws a grenade it gets hit by PKT's tail and blows up. If the grenade is close to Snake, it will dmg him.
ChileNess
Smash Apprentice
your answer is..
how MK beats ness?. there's your answer.
how MK beats ness?. there's your answer.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
*pops into thread*
Ness has problems, but a shallow approach isn't one of them
*sneaks back out*
Ness has problems, but a shallow approach isn't one of them
*sneaks back out*
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
B-b-but MARTH ISN'T THAT BAD, IN FACT I THINK WOLF IS WORSE THAN MARTH!
PKPower
Smash Cadet
Wow. This argument just gets dumber and dumber. All Ness players know that he isn't low. Sure, the Marth match up is pretty bad on paper... but does that make a character low tier? I guess so according to you guys. Every argument in this thread is based on Marth in some way or form. Marth does this to Ness... Marth does that to Ness. So what? Just counter-pick when you fight Marth if it is really that bad for you. I know a really good Marth, he knows how to grab release and how to do the infinite yes. As EB360 said you can SDI out of most of the grab release combos such as Marth's grab release > fsmash. It isn't much of an issue when you learn to deal with it. It's just like when the game first came out how people thought DDD was godlike just because of his grab. What happened? People learned to deal with it.
Why are people that aren't maining Ness in any way trying to bash him anyway? It isn't really your business if you aren't maining him. If you really want Ness to look bad then actually play as Ness. I used to be one of those people that thought Ness was just a bad character overall. I thought Lucas totally owned him in every sort of way. But that really isn't the case, they are two separate characters that have totally different playstyles.
I think that the SBR gave him low tier because:
1. He has a very high learning curve. Learning Ness was pretty difficult for me. It took a lot of losses and frustration, but in the end I learned how to use him and now I thoroughly enjoy him. He is definitely not your typical character play style wise.
2. His projectiles aren't spammy and are used mostly for offense rather than defense. The projectiles have very specific uses, which are NOT to spam. PK Fire is used for a follow up attack, which I think a grab is the safest since you can start shielding in the middle of the PK fire. PKT is used for mind games. If you try to spam this projectile you will get it power shielded and/or punished in some sort of way. The projectiles aren't like TLs where it's like press buttons and hope your opponent screws up so you can get an attack in... Definitely not.
3. Marth. Everyone seems to think that every Marth is an expert on the Ness matchup. Everyone also seems to think that a Marth would just grab you and sit there and grab release the entire match. If you were in a tournament and you did that to someone... Would you really consider it winning? I don't think so. I think people may actually get a sense of sportmanship and let the Ness player play. Plus... There really aren't too many Marths around. People mostly play top tier with random Wario mixed in at tournaments from what I've seen.
4. Ignorance. Nuff said. I disagree with the placement of many characters on their tier list, they have stated themselves that it is subject to change at any time. I'm pretty sure everyone will agree when I say that Lucas, Ness, and Toon Link should be moved up.
Why are people that aren't maining Ness in any way trying to bash him anyway? It isn't really your business if you aren't maining him. If you really want Ness to look bad then actually play as Ness. I used to be one of those people that thought Ness was just a bad character overall. I thought Lucas totally owned him in every sort of way. But that really isn't the case, they are two separate characters that have totally different playstyles.
I think that the SBR gave him low tier because:
1. He has a very high learning curve. Learning Ness was pretty difficult for me. It took a lot of losses and frustration, but in the end I learned how to use him and now I thoroughly enjoy him. He is definitely not your typical character play style wise.
2. His projectiles aren't spammy and are used mostly for offense rather than defense. The projectiles have very specific uses, which are NOT to spam. PK Fire is used for a follow up attack, which I think a grab is the safest since you can start shielding in the middle of the PK fire. PKT is used for mind games. If you try to spam this projectile you will get it power shielded and/or punished in some sort of way. The projectiles aren't like TLs where it's like press buttons and hope your opponent screws up so you can get an attack in... Definitely not.
3. Marth. Everyone seems to think that every Marth is an expert on the Ness matchup. Everyone also seems to think that a Marth would just grab you and sit there and grab release the entire match. If you were in a tournament and you did that to someone... Would you really consider it winning? I don't think so. I think people may actually get a sense of sportmanship and let the Ness player play. Plus... There really aren't too many Marths around. People mostly play top tier with random Wario mixed in at tournaments from what I've seen.
4. Ignorance. Nuff said. I disagree with the placement of many characters on their tier list, they have stated themselves that it is subject to change at any time. I'm pretty sure everyone will agree when I say that Lucas, Ness, and Toon Link should be moved up.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
D:
Zelda..... ZEEEEELLLLLLLDDAAAA!!!!!
she's so pro.
but honestly, yeah, I love ness... he's so fun.... but he's also gimpable
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
OMG ZELDA PWNS NESS Ha Ha!!!
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Falco is NOTHING vs. Ness HE HAS ADVANTAGE!
Also, PKPower, just because I'm not wearing a Ness icon doesn't mean I don't main him. Please be quiet with the assumptions.
Also, PKPower, just because I'm not wearing a Ness icon doesn't mean I don't main him. Please be quiet with the assumptions.
thesage
Smash Hero
I thought you mained Zelda lol.
Guess what character marth had a 0-death cg in melee? Besides I fear Marth's grab release to side b or d-smash over the cg. At least Ness can position himself so he doesn't get ***** by the cg.
Guess what character marth had a 0-death cg in melee? Besides I fear Marth's grab release to side b or d-smash over the cg. At least Ness can position himself so he doesn't get ***** by the cg.
PKPower
Smash Cadet
Yeah I meant Gimpy.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
^ Alright, I apologize. I was in a rush and I just saw that much and assumed the worst.
Also EB360, this might shock you, but I don't really have anything on you. I'm just messing with you because that's what I like to do with you. But on a serious note, defensive Fire Emblem characters ARE a pain. Ike is a pain on Zelda; Marth is a pain on Ness, when they're on the defensive. Both just don't have the speed vs. their fights to get through the fast and/or huge slashes, and both hit hard. I don't care for Wolf, at all. Ness doesn't really have any problems with him aside from what, down B, neutral B, and Fsmash? I think Wolf isn't that big of a pain for Ness. Zelda does better vs. all spacies than Ness does anyway, so maybe that's just why I see Marth as the most problematic... either him or G&W.
But before you say it, yeah, I know this isn't the time to talk about match-ups. I just think that nobody has played a good Marth at all because a defensive Marth is probably the absolute worst to fight.
Nah, she's a secondary... but so far my only Brawl tourney victory was with pure Zelda, who earned me $140 at my college... but I didn't do too well with Ness this past weekend. I play both of them almost equally (even though my game says I've played Ness three times more than I have Zelda, so that just counts fighting CPUs >_>), but yeah, I'm a Ness main. I guess I'm one of the more finicky players because, well, I don't give him as much credit as most everyone else here does.
Also EB360, this might shock you, but I don't really have anything on you. I'm just messing with you because that's what I like to do with you. But on a serious note, defensive Fire Emblem characters ARE a pain. Ike is a pain on Zelda; Marth is a pain on Ness, when they're on the defensive. Both just don't have the speed vs. their fights to get through the fast and/or huge slashes, and both hit hard. I don't care for Wolf, at all. Ness doesn't really have any problems with him aside from what, down B, neutral B, and Fsmash? I think Wolf isn't that big of a pain for Ness. Zelda does better vs. all spacies than Ness does anyway, so maybe that's just why I see Marth as the most problematic... either him or G&W.
But before you say it, yeah, I know this isn't the time to talk about match-ups. I just think that nobody has played a good Marth at all because a defensive Marth is probably the absolute worst to fight.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
I never disagreed with that. Marth is a horrid matchup. I never said anything about Falcobeing a good matchup. I once asked WHY it was a bad one for a simple answer cuz I dont know anything about the matchup.
PKPower
Smash Cadet
So. The question still burns in mine and so many other's minds... Why is Ness low tier? Are his matchups THAT bad? He doesn't do so bad against the high and top tier characters (besides marth and GW of course) and seems to have a lot of even or slightly favored or slightly disfavored matches. This brings me to the thought that Ness is a bit too deep for the SBR to critique correctly. He is more skill related than anything else with his matchups.
Gimpy (or any other SBR user) if you are still reading (unlikely), will you copy/paste what the SBR has said about Ness and his placement? It would clarify a lot of things for us.
Gimpy (or any other SBR user) if you are still reading (unlikely), will you copy/paste what the SBR has said about Ness and his placement? It would clarify a lot of things for us.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Its probably just because of the bad tourney results. Im sure Ness' moveset potential and matchups are perfect for middle tier at least IMO.
thesage
Smash Hero
Simple Fact: He's hard to use and hardly anybody plays him + Marth CG + Nobody's placed well w/ him recently besides WA players and nobody knows how WA rank with the rest of the country right now.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
CG shouldbe the least of his worries. 15% isnt much.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I think a CG -> Dsmash (that tippers if DI'd) is much, but I won't get into that.
thesage
Smash Hero
It doesn't matter the specifics of the cg. A lot of people believe it's an infinite so they won't even bother picking up Ness. Then again there are a lot of Dk players despite the DDD infinite on him.
It's a lot of factors.
It's a lot of factors.
Gaussis
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2008
- Messages
- 903
I remember seeing this at the Marth boards (you know, that topic with the Ness discussion in it), and Colin was arguing that it should be referred to as a CG, while some of the people there preferred to call it an "infinite" 
. It's sad for those who actually believe it is one, though.
. It's sad for those who actually believe it is one, though.It's much but this move is the weakest of his smashes (usmashing a character on the ground is stronger than this). I believe it KO's around 120%, but this is from memory so I can't quite remember the percentage.
FlashGamma
Smash Cadet
I main the Mother's kids, but i favor Ness. However, he has a few downsides:
1. Low ground priority
2. He is easily spiked
3. He's a bit on the slow side (compared to Lucas and many others)
Those reasons (in addition to his MANY counters) is why Ness is, and forever will be, low tier.
1. Low ground priority
2. He is easily spiked
3. He's a bit on the slow side (compared to Lucas and many others)
Those reasons (in addition to his MANY counters) is why Ness is, and forever will be, low tier.
Hes not EASILY spiked per say. Id say theres easier people to meteor smash.
Hes not really slow at all...maybe in ground movement and attacks, but aerials are so fast if your chaining them together properly.
his yo yos have low priority, but thats about it.
Hes not really slow at all...maybe in ground movement and attacks, but aerials are so fast if your chaining them together properly.
his yo yos have low priority, but thats about it.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Post is very wrong.
Ground priority is quite nice, especially ftilt and utilt.
Easily spiked? WTF? I hardly EVER get spiked, and I play Olimars, DKs, and Marths. PKT2 has invincibility. Even if he was easy to spike, that doesnt make someone low tier.
Slow?
There's more to Ness than spamming the bat and PKF. He is actually a very quick character.
And what MANY counters are you talking about? His matchups are mostly even and the ones that arent are very slight in either direction. And Ness is not to be bound to low tier forever. He has potential to be higher.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
lol... what a failure of a 1st post
thesage
Smash Hero
His yo yos have amazing priority. WTF are you talking about? They beat a lot of f-smashes (kirby's, wolf's, etc.). And they're disjointed. They just need more power and speed.
§leepy God
Smash Master
I do feel that Ness is under rep in tourneys, Lucas to, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a pain to coming back from getting knocked off, or facing chracters with multi jumps to juggle him forever, (for new Ness mainers). Anyways, I do feel that Ness can do better then Low tier, but right know, the tier list is still out of wack because it was made too soon. =/
Ness is low tier for two reason in my opinion.
Predictable recovery for one.
CGs and grab releases...
However, it doesn't really mean that ness truly sucks, it just means that sakurai clearly wasn't thinking right when he made ness. I mean, if there was a true counter to grabs in brawl, and ness had another option of recovering such as a pk magnet that can stall like fox's shine, ness would definitely deserve a higher ranking in the tier bracket...
I'll always main him no matter what though, hopefully waiting for a mysterious answer for his main problem, which is cgs. and when that answer is found, ohh boy, its on....
Predictable recovery for one.
CGs and grab releases...
However, it doesn't really mean that ness truly sucks, it just means that sakurai clearly wasn't thinking right when he made ness. I mean, if there was a true counter to grabs in brawl, and ness had another option of recovering such as a pk magnet that can stall like fox's shine, ness would definitely deserve a higher ranking in the tier bracket...
I'll always main him no matter what though, hopefully waiting for a mysterious answer for his main problem, which is cgs. and when that answer is found, ohh boy, its on....