Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[Geenareeno]

if i could facebook like posts i would like this one

Vinnie can.

 

[Vinnie]

 

[Zigsta]

Vinnie can also namesearch.

 

[Geenareeno]

**** Vinnie you just won.

 

[deepseadiva]

Ivysaur in Brawl- is literally my favorite thing Smash has ever spawned.

Better than the very existence of all three games.

Better than the crappy friends I've made.

Peach.

FLYVYSAUR

 

[Phiddlesticks]

i like ivysaur just the way it is

me and ivysaur are bros. for life

 

[Tesh]

Ivysaur can go under Smashville just like Squirtle!! He just might be better than Ganondorf.

 

[CoonTail]

Oh man I come back and see nothing has changed..... <3 PT boards

Lol and just follow vinnie's likes and see where they take you

 

[Tesh]

Does Ivysaur have anything that can jab lock?

 

[Ingoro]

No, The first jab is to slow.

 

[Geenareeno]

Bair or Nair lock?

 

[Tesh]

Well actually I meant if I knock someone down, do any of Ivysaur's moves have the ability to bounce them and force a regular getup? I've never seen it before, but I figured he must have something. Perhaps when fatigued?

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I think possibly one of the Nair hits?

Being able to Fastfall a Nair to force get up would be pretty great.

 

[Tesh]

Especially at upsmash killing percents. I'll have to check it out and see if I can get anything at all to work.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

we tested it a long time ago in the dark ages of pt.


it didnt work.


bair and nair.

feel free to try it again.

 

[Xyless]

So, I always felt my Ivysaur was far better than my other 2, and I never used bullet seed. Now that I am, I feel less mobile and more predictable.

Is bullet seed really worth the risk? Are there ways to guarantee that they'll be hit in?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So, I always felt my Ivysaur was far better than my other 2, and I never used bullet seed. Now that I am, I feel less mobile and more predictable.

Is bullet seed really worth the risk? Are there ways to guarantee that they'll be hit in?

There are practical ways to increase the chance, at least.

I've never B-Reversed it on the ground, because the benefit appears almost non-existent, but when you B-Reverse it in the air, you can land the first hit and move toward where they seem to DI. It appears to have little problem even if they didn't DI that way (it still seems to put them in roughly the right place), and you can catch them if you see that they have a habit of DI'ing out with no trouble. As a result, I wonder if hitting with different parts of the initial hitbox causes different trajectories...

Also, it can make a decent punisher for recoveries that aim high, like Snake or Dedede; it will do a lot of damage and is pretty much guaranteed at the right times. It may be able to go through Shuttle Loop via invincibility frames, too--I'm not quite sure.

In general, the idea is to be unpredictable with it, so that the opponent usually wastes time trying to defend against it. This is how Ivysaur is able to work with her otherwise-terrible grab speed.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

LUIS

I just started using Upair how you described a really long time ago and it works wonders!
(Upairing as you go through a platform so it pushes you down making you almost instantly land with next to no lag)

Using this Ivy actually has some sweet strings and can even juggle fastfallers and heavy characters at the right percents.



@Xyless you have an awesome avatar, I love wobbuffet. getting a wobbuffet tattoo soon.

But on topic about bulletseed. I find that if you use just the "stream" (the part that shoots up and not the pop up hit that sends them into the stream) you get a good success rate too, since it is very hard to DI once you are in it. I like using it under a platform when you read them.

Actually I was just thinking, if we stand on a platform while someone is teching can we cover almost every option with Bulletseed?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

LUIS

I just started using Upair how you described a really long time ago and it works wonders!
(Upairing as you go through a platform so it pushes you down making you almost instantly land with next to no lag)

Using this Ivy actually has some sweet strings and can even juggle fastfallers and heavy characters at the right percents.

@Xyless you have an awesome avatar, I love wobbuffet. getting a wobbuffet tattoo soon.

But on topic about bulletseed. I find that if you use just the "stream" (the part that shoots up and not the pop up hit that sends them into the stream) you get a good success rate too, since it is very hard to DI once you are in it. I like using it under a platform when you read them.

Actually I was just thinking, if we stand on a platform while someone is teching can we cover almost every option with Bulletseed?

Don't forget that jumping up at a platform and using D-Air at the right time has a similar effect. It's pretty useful, especially given its ridiculously large hitbox.

As far as Bullet Seed covering options, it works pretty well, though if your timing isn't spot-on, they could do an empty get-up into a shield or spotdodge. Standing underneath works well, too, since you don't have to worry as much about a get-up attack ruining your read.

 

[Ingoro]

Edit: I'm a fool.

Wobuffet tattoo? Lipstick wobu? if so, you are my hero :D

 

[CoonTail]

Don't forget that jumping up at a platform and using D-Air at the right time has a similar effect. It's pretty useful, especially given its ridiculously large hitbox.

As far as Bullet Seed covering options, it works pretty well, though if your timing isn't spot-on, they could do an empty get-up into a shield or spotdodge. Standing underneath works well, too, since you don't have to worry as much about a get-up attack ruining your read.

Luis this did the trick recently for me.....it manages to really cover Ivy if you have an opponent rushing you down. If you have a platform and a jump you have an answer thanks to this.

LUIS

I just started using Upair how you described a really long time ago and it works wonders!
(Upairing as you go through a platform so it pushes you down making you almost instantly land with next to no lag)

Using this Ivy actually has some sweet strings and can even juggle fastfallers and heavy characters at the right percents.

Yea miles this is fantastic I caught someone on BF shielding too much on platforms so I used this to push them off. They missed the tech and I got a free bulletseed so that was amazing.

But on topic about bulletseed. I find that if you use just the "stream" (the part that shoots up and not the pop up hit that sends them into the stream) you get a good success rate too, since it is very hard to DI once you are in it. I like using it under a platform when you read them.

Actually I was just thinking, if we stand on a platform while someone is teching can we cover almost every option with Bulletseed?

Using the Stream for bullet-seed is a real good way to mess up players who like to recover high like Luis earlier stated.

So, I always felt my Ivysaur was far better than my other 2, and I never used bullet seed. Now that I am, I feel less mobile and more predictable.

Is bullet seed really worth the risk? Are there ways to guarantee that they'll be hit in?

But I mean if we break bullet-seed down....your either using the stream to punish the high recoveries or you will use the radial pop-up in the beginning to punish rolls or break through attacks using the frame 4 invincibility. These uses are probably the best applications so stick with these and there should be no issue.

 

[Ingoro]

Which characters can spotdodge between the bullet seed stream without getting hit? for example I think peach has a very short spotdodge so she prob can't ge trough?

 

[Geenareeno]

You mean airdodge? It depends whether you're talking about the launch from the attack or if they're just moving through it.

 

[Steeler]

i've had fox air dodge through it multiple times. not sure if that's specific to fastfallers or something.

 

[Ingoro]

Exactly, air-dodging sorry for the misunderstanding. Well I've noticed that not every character airdodges just as long/short as others do (if I'm wrong please correct me) for example, I also play Zelda where's I can punish Peach her short airdodge with letting a din's fire explode into her back, so that said I was wonder if we can effecitvely "trap" certain characters with our bullet seed stream.

 

[Xyless]

First numbers are the frames that the character is invincible, second number is how long the animation is total. So, for MK, he's invincible from frame 3 to frame 29, then has more 10 frames of the animation left where he's vulnerable.


3-29 / 39
* Meta Knight

4-29 / 39
* Zero Suit Samus
* Diddy Kong
* Pit
* Squirtle
* Ivysaur
* Charizard
* Ike
* Snake
* King Dedede
* Lucario
* Wario
* R.O.B.
* Olimar

4-29 / 48
* Ice Climbers
* Ness
* Sonic
* Lucas

4-30 / 49
* Bowser

4-29 / 49
* Mario
* Donkey Kong
* Link
* Samus
* Kirby
* Fox
* Pikachu
* Mr. Game & Watch
* Luigi
* Zelda
* Sheik
* Falco
* Yoshi
* Ganondorf
* Wolf
* Toon Link
* Captain Falcon
* Jigglypuff

5-30 / 49
* Marth

4-19 / 49
* Peach



So yeah, Peach has the worst airdodge, and I know that very well, being a Peach main normally.

 

[Ingoro]

Thanks Xyless, this provides to be quite usefull.
damn peach sucks having such a short duration, 30 frames of being punished for a dodge that's asking for a punish.

 

[Zigsta]

Interesting. I always knew Bowser had a godawful airdodge, but I didn't realize so many characters had an even worse airdodge.

 

[T-block]

heh...that list is interesting. dunno if you guys noticed, but all the newcomes have significantly better air dodges than chars who were in melee

 

[Ingoro]

I think I might get better now why Reflex thinks Ivy - Peach is doable, because when she's in the air you can just wait for the airdodge and punish it with an uair/usmash.

 

[Xyless]

A good Peach shouldn't be airdodging if she's above Ivysaur.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

yeah, peach's only options when above you are either trying to beat out whatever youre doing with a dair or messing up your timing with her float and/or double jump

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Peach is kinda rough match up.

 

[CoonTail]

peach is rough for Ivy if you don't play back imo......I've really managed to mess with peach's float game with b-air and platforms.

But yea Ivy can get wrecked by peach if she gets in

 

[T-block]

Ivy does fine against Peach imo

 

[Zigsta]

I always hated the Peach MU.

But I love it now that I play Bowser. <3

 

[Timothy2035]

So, I always felt my Ivysaur was far better than my other 2, and I never used bullet seed. Now that I am, I feel less mobile and more predictable.

Is bullet seed really worth the risk? Are there ways to guarantee that they'll be hit in?

bulletseed is good for those down air Link players. Those who think they are invincible and also the King DDD players who want to do that particular air jump that comes down with a slam. Bulletseed stops all those attacks and allows you to get some damage on them. Coming out of a neutral air into a bulletseed makes for combo game if it is in a walled area where the DI won't likely occur.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So...D-Air trips sometimes. I wonder if it could link into stuff that way.

 

[Tesh]

I've noticed that, but Dair is so horribly laggy. I'm pretty sure at lower percents, tripping is the only way its safe on hit. I've had people stand up in place sometimes and I can bulletseed right on them, but thats rare. No reason not to roll away from such a horrible airspeed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Doing D-Air soon after leaving the ground (not immediately, but close) isn't terribly laggy (whenever it autocancels), and it still has its obnoxious range. Tripping or not, I think we should do it more often.