Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[Ishiey]

Hold up, back to fair and projectiles...

I recall messing around a loooooong time ago with samus, and shot a full charge shot barely outside the distance of ivysaur's fair on PS1 (both airborne, by the platform, neutral stage, not like any of that makes much of a difference though). The cpu ivysaur used fair, reflected it, and I died. No, I don't have a replay

This has been documented before with bowser's nair too, I believe. Does anyone have some sort of explanation for it?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hold up, back to fair and projectiles...

I recall messing around a loooooong time ago with samus, and shot a full charge shot barely outside the distance of ivysaur's fair on PS1 (both airborne, by the platform, neutral stage, not like any of that makes much of a difference though). The cpu ivysaur used fair, reflected it, and I died. No, I don't have a replay

This has been documented before with bowser's nair too, I believe. Does anyone have some sort of explanation for it?

Franklin Badge?

 

[Zigsta]

Hold up, back to fair and projectiles...

I recall messing around a loooooong time ago with samus, and shot a full charge shot barely outside the distance of ivysaur's fair on PS1 (both airborne, by the platform, neutral stage, not like any of that makes much of a difference though). The cpu ivysaur used fair, reflected it, and I died. No, I don't have a replay

This has been documented before with bowser's nair too, I believe. Does anyone have some sort of explanation for it?

I've done this before, too. Just not sure of the timing. :/

 

[T-block]

Franklin Badge?

or Gardevoir? =o

Sounds unlikely that it was the f-air that reflected it... if Bowser's n-air reflect was legit, wouldn't the Bowser boards be researching the hell out it?

 

[Phiddlesticks]

I will probably take a look at this when I have some time either tonight or tomorrow. Sounds fluky and not very reliable, but whatever, I'll check it out

 

[Zigsta]

or Gardevoir? =o

Sounds unlikely that it was the f-air that reflected it... if Bowser's n-air reflect was legit, wouldn't the Bowser boards be researching the hell out it?

Haven't heard of Bowser's nair, Ivysaur's fair can reflect some projectiles. I could've sworn I ran across a list somewhere....

Anyway, the timing is pretty ridiculous, making it a rather unreliable tactic.

 

[Ishiey]

There is no way it was an item. I am positive items were not on. Emphasis on everything about no items.

The thread on the bowser boards just kinda died down, no video for that either... it was quite a while ago though (the thread). I am pretty much positive that it's not a reliable thing by any means, and most likely just brawl being brawl, but it still drives me insane. Even if you could time it properly, reacting to reflect a projectile would need plenty of room, making it easy to dodge.

Basically, it's just another one of those near useless quirks in brawl that nobody's been able to figure out yet (afaik). If there is a list though, that would be cool.

 

[shinyspoon42]

(Because this is Ivy, and how to recover is always important, so I'll post my methods.)

When getting initially hit off the stage, it is very important to DI up and towards the stage, often times you can make it back easily w/out vinewhip.

If they are hitting you low (as some characters might do to kill you early if they know about Ivys suckitude of a recover) then you can vinewhip the ledge as you fly by, effectively saving you.

If they hit you where you aren't high enough to DI easily back, and higher than you can vinewhip from, then try reverse razor leaf, but instead of bair to remove them, try nair. Multi-hitting semi-spike is much more effective against a ledgehogger than a weak 2hit move. If you're to far away to manage an aerial at them, spam razor leaf, waiting for their invincibility to wear off. If you remove them, immediately vinewhip. If it fails, die with honour and try a vinewhip stagespike. Of course, if your opponent is foolish enough to get off the ledge, then thank them personally, and vinewhip.

^bleh, ivy's suckitude of a recovery.


Also, how big are Ivys disjoints (bair, dtilt, jab, etc.)?

How often do you guys incorporate the instant tether into your ivy game?

How often do you guys wavebounce your vinewhip? How often do you wavebounce BS and razor leaf?

How often do you use vine whip in a method outside of recovery?

We need to start using BS more, fast to start and incredibly high damage, I often use it to interrupt my opponent when they start a move, it is often unexpected.

What can ivy do out of SHFF nair?

How big of a focus do you put on spacing in a match? Do you most often play an aggressive ivy, or a defensive ivy?

What can Ivy do out of grab releases and throws?


Sorry for all the questions and the long post, figured we needed more life here in the PT boards, and Ivy could use more discussion. :3

 

[typh]

BS... incredibly high damage

FALSE FALSE FALSE UGGHGhhgaohgdsjkgihesounjeg

any good player will DI the initial hit which is what like, 4%? and even if you do catch them in the very middle of the stream smash DIing out of it will only leave them with like 20% or less (large characters are different but usually they're low/bottom tier anyway so it doesn't matter), which in comparison to, say, metaknight's nair (20%) or marth's downward dancing blade (21%ish?) or etc. etc. etc. is really nothing to worry about

 

[shinyspoon42]

>.> crushing my dreams.

Use it on snake, top tier heavy for the lulz. 20% isn't that bad, its still a good bit of damage.

 

[Ishiey]

Eh, BS is best as an interrupter IMO, especially things like jab mixups. The three frame invincibility makes it helpful (only once a match if the opponent isn't stupid) against characters like ike, luigi, falcon, etc that enjoy jab cancels. True, most of them are lower tier characters, but still a useful application

While on the topic of BS, I always get punished for it when my opponent gets out (even if I end it early, most of the time). Is there anything in particular that you guys do to prevent punishment?

 

[T-block]

Honestly I only ever aim for Bullet Seeds against D3, DK, Bowser, Charizard. Against anyone else it's situational or when I feel like being cheesy.

@Ishieymoro: end earlier? Just play around with it...you'll get used to what you can and can't do eventually. You should have time to shield most attacks after ending the stream.

 

[typh]

Eh, BS is best as an interrupter IMO, especially things like jab mixups.

knowing this, why would anyone jab combo you or use a BS interruptable combo in the first place?

While on the topic of BS, I always get punished for it when my opponent gets out (even if I end it early, most of the time). Is there anything in particular that you guys do to prevent punishment?

no, it's a bad move, the only way to avoid punishment is to end it early which will give you even less damage output

bullet seed is terrible

 

[Ryusuta]

I think it's a mistake to try BSing DeDeDe. If you don't nail it, that's a free chain grab.

 

[Steeler]

no, it's a bad move, the only way to avoid punishment is to end it early which will give you even less damage output

the reason i think ending it early is a good idea is because sometimes you'll catch them c sticking out to sdi and accidentally do an attack. and then you can fsmash or grab or something

or they try to attack you afterward anyway, in which case you just shield and do something

like bullet seed again

bullet seed -> bullet seed comboooooooooooo omgomgomg

everything i just said is completely unreliable and dependent on your opponent but it's a good thing to keep in mind out of bs. and if its someone that falls fast like fox, you can't shield in time

but yeah end it early always or you are probably getting hit imo

 

[T-block]

i land grabs after bullet seed all the time

 

[typh]

any move that relies on your opponent ****ing up so bad as to accidentally do an aerial just to land a follow up tilt/smash is a bad move

 

[Ishiey]

knowing this, why would anyone jab combo you or use a BS interruptable combo in the first place?

no, it's a bad move, the only way to avoid punishment is to end it early which will give you even less damage output

bullet seed is terrible

any move that relies on your opponent ****ing up so bad as to accidentally do an aerial just to land a follow up tilt/smash is a bad move

Well, it worked ridiculously well for me at the last low tier tournament I went to. Along with what Steeler said about people being stupid and buffering bairs as they come out of BS. But then again, the only notable player that this worked on was Snakeee, and that was only twice or so, and I don't even think he played Ike before that day >___>

I do agree that, in higher levels of play where your opponents are very knowledgable about all the characters in the game, BS is sub-par because they will either DI the first or get out with under 20% and (if possible) punish you. But if the opponent's character relies heavily on jab mixups, you just somewhat limited their options.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

i dont have the problem with people DIing the first hit all the time, you guys are making it seem like its incredibly easy to do. At least in my experience it doesn't happen very often and when it does its mainly against the smaller characters. And as for getting out after only 20%, thats just impressive

 

[Zigsta]

Although I wouldn't go so far as to say Bullet Seed is worthless, I will say if you mispredict it, you'll get ***** in competitive play. XD

 

[dre_89_]

Sorry for changing the topic but but I wanted to know what is the best way to edgeguard with Ivy, I usually go offstage for a fair or tether the edge and try to predict their movement but it rarely works.

Also when you're dangling from your vine, does pressing b to pull Ivy up to the edge give invincibility frames you can use to edgehog recoveries, or do you have to release and re-tether.

 

[Vermy]

When ivy zips up from vinewhip, invincibility frames are halfed if you had grabbed the edge without upB.

As for edgeguarding, I generally throw out a razor leaf and chase with an aerial. If they dodge, my aerial will land. If they get hit, my aerial will land, if I time it right.

All of ivys aerials are ok offstage. I stick to reverse nair or dair (for the spike) or fair if they're higher up. Fair has a decent speed and a hitbox above ivyaur, and won't make you drop fast like uair will.

 

[dre_89_]

What do youy mean invincibility frames are halved when you zip up if you didn't grab the edge with upb? If you're dangling from a vine woulldn't you always be grabbing the edge with upb?

 

[Vermy]

When hanging on via a tether, you are completely vulnerable. No invincibility frames at all.

After pulling yourself up to the edge from a vine whip, your invincibility frames are half of what you would get if you had grabbed the edge without the aid of upB.

 

[Ishiey]

A quick question about fthrow. Does anyone use it for anything useful?

 

[T-block]

Yeah it's not bad... puts them in a decent spot for you to follow up. I tend to f-throw then follow up with a Razor Leaf and chase.

 

[Vermy]

Fthrow>razor leaf/dash attack. Its the worst of he throws. It doesn't send them very far, it doesn't do particularly great damage, and it doesn't put your opponent in a "bad" position. Use the other throws.

Uthrow can kill at very high % and your opponent won't expect it. And it gets them in the air. If your opponent is a character with bad air speed, you can switch if you time it right.

Bthrow is for gtfo, kills and switch setups.

Dthrow is good for aerial setups. (Dthrow>vinewhip or dthrow, bait a dodge, uair) it also has decent knockback growth. So at high %, you may be surprised with how far your opponent will go.

 

[typh]

dash attack is ivysaur's best move

true story

 

[Ishiey]

All right, thanks guys. I just desperately wanted to find a use for that throw, idk why. Does anyone nair out of dthrow at lower %s, or do you usually use another throw?

Also, does anyone sh nair/bair into a dj bair/nair? If you bair > nair, the nair practically auto-'spikes'. Not too useful, but something I found kinda interesting.

I thought nair was Ivysaur's best move >_>

 

[Vermy]

Typh speaks truth.
Dash attack comes out in 4 frames, (1 frame faster than MK) has sex kick properties, can be dash attack faked effectively, has kill power, and can set up aerials. Nair is awesome, but dash attack is better.
Imo, ivys best 5 moves are:
1. Down B (lol)
2. Dash attack
3. Nair
4. Razor leaf
5. Dtilt

It'd be nice if ivy didn't get the short end of the stick, but sadly it seems to be in her nature. Fthrow isn't great. Its not as bad as say, falco's uthrow, but its pretty useless.

 

[dre_89_]

In that case, if fthrow> razor leaf> dash attack sucks, should dash attack be saved for a finisher or used whenever possible to get them in the air.

 

[Vermy]

Can be used for either.
imo its preference. It's a quick finisher but its also one of ivysaur's quickest moves. It's a very versatile attack, spam it or save it, you cant go wrong.

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

All right, thanks guys. I just desperately wanted to find a use for that throw, idk why. Does anyone nair out of dthrow at lower %s, or do you usually use another throw?

Also, does anyone sh nair/bair into a dj bair/nair? If you bair > nair, the nair practically auto-'spikes'. Not too useful, but something I found kinda interesting.

I thought nair was Ivysaur's best move >_>

It's Bair or F-tilt. Without those he'd be rubbish (No jokes about how he is rubbish anyway please).

 

[Ryusuta]

Neutral air is as important or MORE important than those moves. It's what Ivy uses to set up practically everything else.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Speaking of Nair set-ups, sh Nair spike into Utilt puts them above you and I've never seen it be broken out of. Thoughts?

Also, I Nair'd into Charizard's Flamethrower and beat it in priority in the initial hits, but I lost before the move was over. Going along with canceling out Link's arrows and things with it before, I'm thinking that one of the earlier parts of the attack near Ivysaur's nose is disjointed or else has crazy priority.

 

[T-block]

That'd be really hot if there was a disjoint in Ivy's n-air... it could probably be exploited nicely.

sh n-air > u-tilt seems inescapable to me too.

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

Neutral air is as important or MORE important than those moves. It's what Ivy uses to set up practically everything else.

Yeah it's not like outranging the opponent is part of Ivysaurs game or even remotely important for him. If his bair would only setup for a move like Ftilt.... Maybe that would make Bair useful....

Still not nearly as good as Nair with it's disjointed hitboxes though.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah it's not like outranging the opponent is part of Ivysaurs game or even remotely important for him. If his bair would only setup for a move like Ftilt.... Maybe that would make Bair useful....

Still not nearly as good as Nair with it's disjointed hitboxes though.

Sarcasm aside, if you honestly think his neutral air isn't as important, you're using Ivysaur very wrong.

 

[IThinkAboutIvysaur]

Sarcasm aside, if you honestly think his neutral air isn't as important, you're using Ivysaur very wrong.

K I admit I use Nair more often....
But you all make it sound like Bair and Ftilt are so uselsss. =( While his Bair and Ftilt are almost as good as his Up+B.

 

[Steeler]

While his Bair and Ftilt are almost as good as his Up+B.

now i know for sure that you are a troll lmao