Japan defies the tier list.

[soma ghost]

It seems to me that in Japanese smash you see a-lot more dominant lower tier players. I believe that American melee players all sort of play out of the same mold. I don't think we use our characters to their specific strengths as good as Japanese do. Why is that?

let me hear what you think

 

[Jihnsius]

This has been the case in other fighters as well. I think it's just that we're two completely different worlds with very little in common and very little communication between us. We go about things differently.

 

[Pi]

I think a lot of people rely to much on tiers, they see a tier list and assume that the top tiers are the only ones viable to win, especially if it's a low tier vs a high tier, when that's simply not the case.

I also think that the stereotype is fueled by people excusing their lack of skill at the game by saying that their character is bad.

Few years ago people would never have guessed that Ganon would be doing as well as he was, seeing as how he is so slow, and look at how Taj has done so much for a character that was once considered the worse in the game.

I think what it comes down to is people being unwilling to work harder for something that can be achieved with much less work by simply choosing a more 'tourney viable' character.

 

[soma ghost]

But do you think we go about it wrong? A classic (and dated) example is easy to find when you watch aniki. He knows link isn't a fast character and he knows that his opponent knows this as well ,so he slows them down to his speed and keeps them at bay with projectiles. Why after his huge success with this tactic have I not seen it done by anyone since? Not everyone with a sword can play like marth and not everyone with speed can play like captain falcon but that's what it seems like we try to do. I think new players should slow down with there tech training and just learn there character a little better.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It could also be the other way around saying that the US is actually better in smash (which afaik is true), and that the low tiers do genuinely have trouble against the high tiers when played above a certain level. This coupled with the "play to win" mindset of taking the most direct path to victory could be what causes us to go towards high tier characters far more often than low tiers, making it even harder for said low tier players to succeed.

What surprises me more is that few people even SECOND low tier characters, despite a few of them having relatively even, or in some cases FAVORABLE matchups against high tiers. For instance, if you have a bad matchup against Peach, wouldn't it be reasonable to pick up Young Link, who apparently has a good matchup against her (combined with matchup inexperience, this could give you a significant advantage). The only logical explanation for people NOT doing this is...you could also second a top/high tier character and cover more of your bad matchups, rather than a low tier and cover one or two.

 

[Jam Stunna]

It seems to me that in Japanese smash you see a-lot more dominant lower tier players. I believe that American melee players all sort of play out of the same mold. I don't think we use our characters to their specific strengths as good as Japanese do. Why is that?

let me hear what you think

Can you be more specific? Like examples of "dominant" Japanese low tier mains (and what "dominant" even means- do you mean they place well or they win tournaments? There is a difference)? Or characters that you think have better potential but are ignored by Americans? You're making a pretty bold statement with very little support at this point.

 

[LLDL]

i dont think Japan defies the tier list. Its because japan right now, is at a much lower playing level than US players. If you go back a couple years, dominant japanese players used the same characters as us.

No, its not that they defy it or anything more complicated like you're trying to make it out to be. Its simply because the best players in japane chose low tier characters, and that nobody else using a high tier character surpassed them in terms of skill yet.

 

[Dogysamich]

*looks at topic*
There are various reasons why it happens.

The main one works like this, the American "philosophy" of learning a character and the Japanese philosophy. Yes, this concept exists. I quote American because it's not really an "established" idea, but it's more of an understood concept.

In America, when a person learns a character, more often then not they learn combos first. They learn big, huge *** flashy combos. Next, or maybe first depending on the game/character, they learn ways in which to win the fastest. In smash that'd translation to somebody picking up fox and learning how to u.air juggle and then shine spike.

In Japan, when a person learns a character, they learn to defend their character first. Plain and simple. They learn what moves work in what situations, how to move when nothing works (or it's to their advantage), and when and what they should block BEFORE they go off learning combos. They also learn how to effectively punish from their defense as well.

In short, you have offense vs defense.

Now the way it works, you can learn this an awesome combo all you want, but if you never find (or create) the opening to land the combo, it doesnt matter. On the other side, as long as you defend yourself and punish every mistake, it doesnt matter if you CAN combo or not, you know when you're guaranteed damage.

So because of that, more people can settle for having to wait for their opening to get their damage as opposed to wanting to just run in and destroy everything (Which is pretty much the difference of what you see between the countries, for the most part).

___

You can also go into the easy/cookie cutter factor between the countries, and that's a real easy point.

Whenever you see fighting games played in america, they're usually played for money.

Whenever you see them played in japan, it's usually for pride/ranking. (Unless I'm misinformed, SBO (Super Battle Opera) is the ONLY japanese tourney that pays out).

So when most people in America play, they're going to want the easiest win possible because money is on the line. You can argue against it all you want but it's a fact. This makes them play the easiest characters possible. (Not specifically the best, but that's a game-by-game case).

Since the japanese dont have as much on the line, they're more inclined to play characters they like or ones that offer up more of a personal challenge as opposed to just mainstreaming everything.

___

In short, you can say "Japan defies the tierlist", but there're reasons why. It's not like they're superhumans or anything. (Well, some of them atleast. XD)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It could also be the other way around saying that the US is actually better in smash (which afaik is true), and that the low tiers do genuinely have trouble against the high tiers when played above a certain level. This coupled with the "play to win" mindset of taking the most direct path to victory could be what causes us to go towards high tier characters far more often than low tiers, making it even harder for said low tier players to succeed.

What surprises me more is that few people even SECOND low tier characters, despite a few of them having relatively even, or in some cases FAVORABLE matchups against high tiers. For instance, if you have a bad matchup against Peach, wouldn't it be reasonable to pick up Young Link, who apparently has a good matchup against her (combined with matchup inexperience, this could give you a significant advantage). The only logical explanation for people NOT doing this is...you could also second a top/high tier character and cover more of your bad matchups, rather than a low tier and cover one or two.

this is perfection.

@dogysamich
i disagree with your grouping america and japan so broadly, but its a good essay on offense v defense otherwise.

 

[Dogysamich]

It's a hard arguement to push for smash, but I typed my post in the general sense. On that, it's kind of an "understood statement".

___

It's hard to argue in smash because there arent that many true combos in smash (because of DI), and except for playing somebody, not alot of ways to practice it.

But in, oh say street fighter for example, just go in training mode. The average American is going to see what moves combo into ultra before the look to see if their c.mp is worth anything (or to find out "Hey, this thing stops rufus. YAAAAAAY)

 

[7ak]

This is actually an interesting topic. I agree with some of what has been said but

This is actually an interesting topic. I agree with some of what has been said but I also disagree with some of it.

From what I have seen from watching many old classic Japanese smash matches and many US smash matches, there is just a fundamental difference in playing mindset between the two.

The average American player and American culture in general is of the mindset that you must "win" at all costs........play as cheap as possible, gimp at the lowest possible percent, camp as much as necessary, etc. whatever it takes to NOT have your character clapping and congratulating the other at the screen at the end of the match. This is the mindset that sees absolutely no problem with the cheapest character and stage counterpicks, stage banning, and tactics such as Sheik's d-throw chaingrab or the gayest thing in all of Melee.....wobbling. Americans have this obsession with classifying people as "winners" or "losers"......if you're not a winner, you're a loser and the worst possible thing for an American ego is to be a loser.

To the Japanese, I believe that they more enjoy the thrill of the mental back and forth of a good match between skilled players, pulling off novel combos, and showing that they have some fighting spirit. I also think they seem to consider some of the cheaper tactics as dishonorable and taking no skill or thought. Sure Sheik can d-throw many characters to almost KO percents........so did that really prove who was the smarter or more skilled player? Or take Wobbling or some of the ICs chaingrabs.......ummm ok, you've taken a stock off me with one finger and no chance of me escaping.........you have proven absolutely nothing in regard to your skills.

Take M2K and Aniki as examples of the difference between the difference in playing styles and philosophy:

Nobody will argue that M2K plays to win.........that is the very definition of his playing style. Every single move he makes in a match is carefully calculated to minimize his own risk and patiently wait for the biggest opening which will allow him a grab, combo, or edge gimp. I personally am a bit ambivalent about his style........I think he is obviously one of the most skilled and smartest smash players but he is also one of the cheapest. Sometimes I just think it seems stupid for him to play as gay as possible (i.e. edgecamp for half the match) to get a 3-stock when he could play with more guts and get a 2-stock win.

As for Aniki.........he also plays to win. Obviously with Link and Samus it is not nearly as easy to gimp people or win as it is with Fox/Marth but Aniki very much wants to win every serious match. Aniki is also a merciless spammer........but I have never seen such beautiful spamming in another smash player. Usually, I think spamming is cheap, but Aniki's spamming is a part of his unrelenting pressure style. Aniki's overall style is extremely aggressive, constant pressure mixed with some cocky tricks. In his style you can see the Japanese philosophy of going all out (also in Mach Dash), trying to utterly dominate the opponent mentally instead of just waiting and waiting for an opening to start a rehearsed combo or chaingrab. They seem to play more for fun and for the thrill of the mindgames rather than just getting the win.

Of course I am not saying that all Japanese players have this mindset........if you look at some videos, there are a few players who play more in the American style. I think Shu the Sheik player, and Tani the Marth player, both play more of the American win-at-all-costs style but they still have a lot of that Japanese cocky pressure game too. What is interesting is that in matches between Shu or Tani and Aniki, Aniki seems to try just a little bit harder to humiliate and dominate those two. He seems to disrespect that more robotic American style, and in his matches with them, you notice a kind of mocking of their camping and grabbing and an extra effort to constantly trick them and show them how much smarter he is without using those tactics.


I'll also say that I agree that tournament money is a big part of the American style. At this point, American smash has also reached a level of playing which I think surpasses other countries, but to be fair, there has never really been a truly international tournament. Americans like to say how much better the US is than Japan or Europe but maybe Americans should see what happens when they're not on their home turf.

I admit that I'm a bit biased because I'm a big Aniki fan, but how can you not be after watching his matches? Some of the best SSBM matches I've ever seen are with Cpt. Jack, Aniki, Masashi, and Mach Dash.........I'm sad it seems like they don't play melee much anymore.

 

[Had0]

*likes the described japanese mentality more than the American mentality*

 

[LLDL]

-I do a spiked shine on some japanese guy.

-You have disgraced my people!, you are dishonorable..

Seriously 7ak, you might be right, but it sounds mad sterotype. Most of the japanese matches that I've seen, the people were playing to win. Most japanse people that play video games, don't follow the same mindset as their parent generation also. Take Sakurai for example. Most Japanese players were PLAYING TO WIN. Sakurai, following the same mindset that YOU just pointed out (Because he's 2 generations behind), changed the next game for the worse.

 

[soma ghost]

I'm not arguing with the tier list (entirely) or saying that japan is better. I'm just saying that in American smash the difference between low and high tier players seems a little exaggerated compared to japans. And the reason I believe this is, is because the American cookie cutter style of play. We skip learning the most possible about the character we've selected and just go straight to the flashy kill combos. Some of this may be do to the extremely high level at witch melee is played in America. Players who watch bombsoilder, germ, mango, ken and others on youtube see the very limits of the game, and they want to do what they've just watched before they have even mastered the control and defense of there character.

 

[Jihnsius]

Dogy is correct. Japanese society has a much larger drive for self discipline and self respect, while American culture typically does things the easiest way possible.

 

[7ak]

-I do a spiked shine on some japanese guy.

-You have disgraced my people!, you are dishonorable..

Seriously 7ak, you might be right, but it sounds mad sterotype. Most of the japanese matches that I've seen, the people were playing to win. Most japanse people that play video games, don't follow the same mindset as their parent generation also. Take Sakurai for example. Most Japanese players were PLAYING TO WIN. Sakurai, following the same mindset that YOU just pointed out (Because he's 2 generations behind), changed the next game for the worse.

Actually what you just said is much more stereotypical......I'm not saying every Japanese person is a samurai who lives their life by bushido. FYI not every Japanese person of the "parent generation" thinks that way either. I'm saying that in general, the Japanese players seem to think that certain tactics in smash are stupid because they take no skill or thinking, so there is no incentive to use them if the end goal is to display skill and intelligence.

Like I said before, it's not true all the time.........I think I saw a video of Aniki chaingrab Shu's Sheik using Doc because as I said, he seems to think Shu plays a thoughtless/cheap technical Sheik. If he went Link, obviously Shu would chaingrab him up to 90% and then f-air edgeguard......Aniki would lose and think Shu got an undeserved win.......so he used Doc and tried to give him a taste of his own medicine. In my opinion, Sheik's combos on Doc are so ridiculous that I don't really think chaingrabbing her is that cheap. Found the vid if you're interested, kinda fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa5OZbudPhc

It's also not as easy to judge based on these videos of Japanese players which are mostly over a year and sometimes 2-3 years old. Even for old vids, the mindgames and playing are quite impressive.......I wonder what they'd be playing like today. When Bombsoldier's vids came out everyone thought he was a god........then people started getting near his level and suddenly bashed him as a generic Falco, giving him no credit for practically inventing some of the most impressive Falco combos which are still not easy to pull off as consistently as he did.

You're also slightly mistaken about brawl........of course they removed elements which they thought were overpowered in melee.......it happened in the transition from ssb64 to melee too. But I think that the main thing they were going for was broad appeal and instant playability to maximize sales.......they wanted brawl to be playable by your mom and little brother essentially. Unfortunately, Nintendo has been following this strategy for the past few years.......it's great for their business and does a service to help make gaming mainstream but they're definitely producing inferior games considering actual game mechanics and depth.

 

[Cosmo!]

*likes the described japanese mentality more than the American mentality*

*likes the "American mentality" more than the described japanese mentality*

 

[soma ghost]

The 1:40 cape **** is awesome!!!

 

[7ak]

The 1:40 cape **** is awesome!!!

If you liked that, take a look at this........best Link ditto I've ever seen, great Japanese style mindgames:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-RxMZqcMx8

 

[Dark Sonic]

I get the general feeling from this thread that you guys thing playing to win is bad <_<.

 

[DrewB008]

its cause theyre not that good

 

[soma ghost]

That's not it at all. The reason I started this thread is because I want to see more competitive low tier players in America. I haven't slammed playing to win once.

 

[fullynick]

how on earth is wobbling or IC chaingrabs 'cheap' surely it shows your skill if you're getting a grab in the first place?

 

[Rubyiris]

I am in the belief the the only reason why characters like Ganon, and Pikachu are so low on the tier list, as example, are because Shiek exists.

A good player with a solid grasp of fundamentals should be able to demolish most players who play the lower tiers with Shiek. Of course, there are some exceptions, such as Kage.

Axe is an amazing Pika player, but when someone chooses Shiek, he won't hesitate in switching to his secondaries, as another example.

 

[N64]

I want to point out a distinction between what the OP is talking about, and this last post.

To my understanding, the OP is saying that in Japan, the gap between low tiers and high tiers is smaller. That is, that low tiers are more viable in a tournament setting, more commonly played, and tend to do better in matchups. They do not move up the tier list.

The previous post talked about specific characters moving up the tier list. Now, it's probably just a pet peeve of mine and i'm not saying the post before mine is guilty of this, but I see too many people assuming these two things are identical. Many fail to realize that for a character to move up in the tier list, other characters have to move down. Yeah, pikachu can handle himself in a lot of situations, he has his good matchups, does alright against most high tiers, etc. But the same is true of other characters around him in the tier list. This is different from what the OP is talking about, as no characters have to move around in the tier list (the japanese tier list is probably different, yes, but that's unrelated) for the gap between different characters to shrink. You could have a huge tournament and the top 26 placings could be the top 26 characters in tier order, or (more likely) it could be 26 fox/marth/sheiks/falcos and the tier list would be effectively unchanged by these results.

Anyways, back on topic.

I like a lot of what has been said so far. The broad differing-learning-approaches generalization is interesting and a seemingly viable, to me, explanation.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That's not it at all. The reason I started this thread is because I want to see more competitive low tier players in America. I haven't slammed playing to win once.

Not you. I'm talking about the random people popping up labeling various things as "cheap," and bashing Americans for trying to win using all the tools available, while praising the Japanese mindset, saying they "enjoy the thrill of the mental back and forth of a good match between skilled players, pulling off novel combos, and showing that they have some fighting spirit" (which implies that Americans...don't).

The average American LOVES to see those badass combos! have you not noticed that we're the ones making all those combo videos?

As for the "cheap" aspects, you could also say that we consider the game more exciting when we know that victory or defeat is only 1 mistake away (which encourages perfect play, something most people would say is admirable).

Try looking at things from multiple perspectives for a change <_<. I'd hate for Sheik players not to chaingrab me in a tournament set, cause it would just mean that the player is sandbagging. Sure you could say that the chaingrab takes no skill to perform, but it's still a tool that the player is actively avoiding and thus I'm not fighting him at his fullest potential. It's fine if you disagree with this, but at least understand that playing to win doesn't mean that we're not having the same "thrill" as the Japanese.

 

[HammerBro123]

ya that was close on the link game and it was exciting to watch

 

[XIF]

I believe with 100% conviction that the sole reason for this is the ******** American notion that somehow dumb *** stages like Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, and Green Greens somehow add to the game, when in reality they only give unfair advantages to the top tier characters.

The fact of the matter is that these stages simply allow the top tier characters who already have significant advantages near insurmountable advantages. Even seemingly simple looking stages like Pokemon Stadium and Dreamland 64 present further advantages to Fox and Falco, whether it be more maneuvering options for Fox, making him exceedingly difficult to even catch to attempt to combo, and for Falco just opportunities to combo more than he already can.

The Japanese, however, play almost exclusively on Final Destination. Flat, symmetrical, fair. And the fact is that almost every character stands a decent chance against any character on Final D. Mario, Link, Yoshi, Roy, etc, all have only slightly disadvantageous matchups against even the best characters in the game.

America has successfully neutered the low tier metagame before it could even get up and going by allowing stages in which those characters don't even stand a chance.

 

[DAftFlip]

*looks at topic*
There are various reasons why it happens.

The main one works like this, the American "philosophy" of learning a character and the Japanese philosophy. Yes, this concept exists. I quote American because it's not really an "established" idea, but it's more of an understood concept.

In America, when a person learns a character, more often then not they learn combos first. They learn big, huge *** flashy combos. Next, or maybe first depending on the game/character, they learn ways in which to win the fastest. In smash that'd translation to somebody picking up fox and learning how to u.air juggle and then shine spike.

In Japan, when a person learns a character, they learn to defend their character first. Plain and simple. They learn what moves work in what situations, how to move when nothing works (or it's to their advantage), and when and what they should block BEFORE they go off learning combos. They also learn how to effectively punish from their defense as well.

In short, you have offense vs defense.

Now the way it works, you can learn this an awesome combo all you want, but if you never find (or create) the opening to land the combo, it doesnt matter. On the other side, as long as you defend yourself and punish every mistake, it doesnt matter if you CAN combo or not, you know when you're guaranteed damage.

So because of that, more people can settle for having to wait for their opening to get their damage as opposed to wanting to just run in and destroy everything (Which is pretty much the difference of what you see between the countries, for the most part).

___

You can also go into the easy/cookie cutter factor between the countries, and that's a real easy point.

Whenever you see fighting games played in america, they're usually played for money.

Whenever you see them played in japan, it's usually for pride/ranking. (Unless I'm misinformed, SBO (Super Battle Opera) is the ONLY japanese tourney that pays out).

So when most people in America play, they're going to want the easiest win possible because money is on the line. You can argue against it all you want but it's a fact. This makes them play the easiest characters possible. (Not specifically the best, but that's a game-by-game case).

Since the japanese dont have as much on the line, they're more inclined to play characters they like or ones that offer up more of a personal challenge as opposed to just mainstreaming everything.

___

In short, you can say "Japan defies the tierlist", but there're reasons why. It's not like they're superhumans or anything. (Well, some of them atleast. XD)

You're absolutely right. Imagine how much better we would be if we actually learned situation specifics about our characters. Really and simply, we should learn about our characters, their match-ups, strengths and weaknesses and then worry about the wrote combo learning. I think that M2K has been so successful because he has employed both the "win-at-all-costs" mentality and the "know-your-character" mentality. Not to mention he has amassed a vast knowledge about killing/combo percentages, just/invincibility frames, shield pressuring, and his DI is incredible. The list goes on. We may knock him for his attitude towards people but if we studied Smash as deeply as he has there is so much potential in so many players it sucks to think it's all going to waste. I think that Mango is exemplary in that respect.

 

[Archangel]

I'm not arguing with the tier list (entirely) or saying that japan is better. I'm just saying that in American smash the difference between low and high tier players seems a little exaggerated compared to japans. And the reason I believe this is, is because the American cookie cutter style of play. We skip learning the most possible about the character we've selected and just go straight to the flashy kill combos. Some of this may be do to the extremely high level at witch melee is played in America. Players who watch bombsoilder, germ, mango, ken and others on youtube see the very limits of the game, and they want to do what they've just watched before they have even mastered the control and defense of there character.

I think Ken for the most part shaped the game. Him and the people he played against made people pay much more attention to Marth, Fox, Falco, and Sheik then anyone else. However eventually people revisited other characters once dominance of the top got old and Character's like Link, Samus, Falcon, Luigi, Mario/Doc, Gannon...etc. where discovered to be better than originally thought. However the top character's still have the advantage. Doesn't mean they always win but it means they win 90% of tourney's .

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think Ken for the most part shaped the game. Him and the people he played against made people pay much more attention to Marth, Fox, Falco, and Sheik then anyone else. However eventually people revisited other characters once dominance of the top got old and Character's like Link, Samus, Falcon, Luigi, Mario/Doc, Gannon...etc. where discovered to be better than originally thought. However the top character's still have the advantage. Doesn't mean they always win but it means they win 90% of tourney's .

guys, people played with their favorite characters in the beginning. people didnt really start migrating to high tiers well after the tier list was formed. up until '04-'06 people just played their favorite/their best character.

they moved to the higher tiers because they actually were better and everyone saw that. its not like some people randomly listed the characters and people just decided to play the higher characters. the meta game exists, and the tier list is just a general ranking in the current meta game.

mewtwo is a bad character. taj takes mewtwo to a new meta game level, but mewtwo's meta game still isn't out of bottom tier. there are still a few people that play their favorite regardless of tier. they are very good players; they make good choices and they make good reads, and all in all do some amazing stuff given opportunity. But they still aren't doing anything in tournaments.

 

[Archangel]

guys, people played with their favorite characters in the beginning. people didnt really start migrating to high tiers well after the tier list was formed. up until '04-'06 people just played their favorite/their best character.

they moved to the higher tiers because they actually were better and everyone saw that. its not like some people randomly listed the characters and people just decided to play the higher characters. the meta game exists, and the tier list is just a general ranking in the current meta game.

mewtwo is a bad character. taj takes mewtwo to a new meta game level, but mewtwo's meta game still isn't out of bottom tier. there are still a few people that play their favorite regardless of tier. they are very good players; they make good choices and they make good reads, and all in all do some amazing stuff given opportunity. But they still aren't doing anything in tournaments.

I agree 100%. I think that if people Dedicated themselves they could be as good as Taj's Mewtwo. However even Taj's Mewtwo peaks at Mid. This is the way the game is.

 

[PB&J]

japanese players are just different from us..and i hate when say america is better than another country..only smasher to travel over there was ken and isai ..

counter picks in america are really gay and make the players here pick up players l;ike fox

people used to bring my icys to rainbow cruise..(y is it legal i ask myself), poke floats , and other stages that favored fox or would of been done with fox ..so im like im picking fox up for this sole purpose..but thats just me

japan doesnt counterpick gay stages to win.

but i will also ;llike to add..landing a grab with icys in the forst place is hard against really good players ..so dont say chain grabbing is gay..but im working now on my non chain grab game to master icy's..

moral of the story

diff countries play diff..even diff states play differ from the other

 

[JJfox]

Everyone know that Japanese have a much better work ethic than the people in the western world. Which means that they will take the time to learn their character with dedication instead of just looking at the tier list, choosing fox or something then just learn massive combos.

Plus a quarter of Americans are fat and lazy. It's a fact.

 

[joeplicate]

does japan even play smash brothers any more?


No?!?!

 

[LLDL]

Everyone know that Japanese have a much better work ethic than the people in the western world. Which means that they will take the time to learn their character with dedication instead of just looking at the tier list, choosing fox or something then just learn massive combos.

Plus a quarter of Americans are fat and lazy. It's a fact.

Lol. I only use Falco, and only really am good with falco and fox. And I've only laid eyes on the tier list like 3 times in my life, just to read it. In fact, I think 80% of the melee players on this forums don't even use or care about the tier list. Like me, they just pick their favorite character and get good wth them. Thats all there is to any fighting game.

 

[EPsilon933]

does japan even play smash brothers any more?


No?!?!

Probably not so much. I heard Japan converted to arcade fighters.

 

[Cosmo!]

we should ban corneria though. seriously.

 

[DAftFlip]

I think Ken for the most part shaped the game. Him and the people he played against made people pay much more attention to Marth, Fox, Falco, and Sheik then anyone else. However eventually people revisited other characters once dominance of the top got old and Character's like Link, Samus, Falcon, Luigi, Mario/Doc, Gannon...etc. where discovered to be better than originally thought. However the top character's still have the advantage. Doesn't mean they always win but it means they win 90% of tourney's .

Ok, but we're not talking about who shaped the game. We are talking about game ethics here. The American smasher vs the Japanese smasher. That's the actual discussion.

But if you want to talk about who has had an impact in the smash world, Deadly Alliance has/had a HUGE influence on how the game is played.
My respective crew mates (even the retired ones) have devised the meta game for alot of characters like Wes's Samus. And we are even responsible for groundbreaking token techniques like wavedashing. That's right, Kumaal discovered it while playing Luigi in the early days and also developed the meta-game for Luigi. Wes discovered the super-wavedash for samus and was the first to use the bomb-jump recovery. I mean Corneria was even banned at some tourneys because Wes "could not be beat" in it. Dire and his Game and Watch metagame awed and inspired many, even prompting one tournament holder to play him when he registered so he would waste anyones time with "such a sh***y character" He's also responsible for Yoshi's meta-game contrary to the popular belief that Fumi has. . Dav3 in responsible for pillaring with Falco and well as the discovery of the short hop laser. Mike G who created Peach's meta-game. The list goes on.

So now that we're done measuring eachothers genitals, the topic was "Japan, defying the tier list ? "


They have done just that by developing their characters before learning fancy pants "combos" and techniques as well as an understanding of all their attributes, respective advantages and understanding of the actual game physics.

Sure some characters, because of their obvious advantages, are going to remain top tier but I can bet that if we dared ourselves to focus on the lower tiers and come to a deeper understanding of how they work like the good folks in Japan seem to do then imagine how the tier list and the game would change.

edit: btw don't take anything I just posted here ...(D**k measuring ... ) too seriously. I'm just a passionate writer. =p

 

[joeplicate]

There's a lot of the "tires don exits" argument in this thread, and it's all relatively rehashed.

It goes like

Well people just SAY that some characters are better than others, so those are all the characters who anybody ever plays. Thus, they're the only ones that get any decent metagame development and they're so far ahead of the other characters that you need to pick a "top tier" to get anywhere.

It's basically wrong; although it sounds good on paper, character favoritism won't give yoshi a third jump, or make mewtwo any smaller or heavier, or won't give game and watch a good shield.

There's some possibility of the tier list being slightly skewed because of this, I'll admit. A handful of people including Japan think that Doc is a really untapped character. Players like Ka-Master, Kage and Mango have shown that their characters are better than everyone once thought. But we're not about to see any major changes; a lot of these advancements are like mid-tier to high tier, or low-tier to upper mid. This is 2009. Nobody's about to discover anything game-breaking with Pichu.

I asked m2k what he thought about mewtwo at TourneyPlay awhile ago. He replied "He's so limited, all he can do is shieldgrab." The best players, who are more capable of "developing" low tiers than anyone else, acknowledge that different characters are simply better than others.



Besides, using Japan as an example is really weird because they're basically an inactive region.