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Jesus Christ: Messiah or Rebel?

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JBlaze1394

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Nerd - If I had to guess, I would say that the "mistakes" that you refer to do not prove that it wasn't edited. Personally, I think that those events you described that state that Jesus' prophesies came true only prove that either the events or the prophesy were planted or edited...but thats my personal opinion. Logically, saying that events that depict the "downfall" of a character, yet emphasize and strengthen the main character's position and influence definitely does not qualify as a counterpoint to my earlier argument.

Mcpon - In terms of the womanly influence...I've heard that argument before. It just doesn't strike me as valid. I understand the logic behind it, but it's not the smoking gun validation of the unaltered state of the Bible as some people claim.
 

awesomestnerd

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The women weren't a metaphor because Jesus later appeared to thousands after, ate dinner with people, and walked along the road with 2 men.

If Judas betrayed the Son of Man wouldn't that be considered a mistake?

Ness, don't EVER post in here again unless you think about it and make a logical contribution and you can spell.
 

Viewtiful Joel

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Crimson King said:
No, the Old Testament was editted and chosen WHICH interpretationg of a story was to be used. There was no official bible until 70 A.D. after a council of church leaders chose it. Same went with the New Testament some 330 years later.
I don't know if it was considered an "official Bible" at the time, but the Septuagint (or LXX) is a complete Old Testament translation from Hebrew into Greek that was performed between 300-200 B.C.

By the way, just a little picky detail that someone else may already have mentioned - in the topic title for this thread, it says "Jesus Christ: Messiah or Rebel?" Well, by calling Him Christ, you've already conceded that He is the Messiah since Christ means Messiah. Christ is not Jesus' last name or something (I think a lot of people think that - not saying that you do necessarily). He is called Jesus Christ because He is THE Christ (or the Messiah). Maybe from now on you'd prefer to call Him Jesus of Nazareth to be more accurate.
 

Crimson King

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Christ means annointed one. I was referring to the religious figure. Jesus of Nazareth ( a common name already) did exist. Now, if he was the same as the religion figure Jesus Christ, is not for debate.
 

mcpon

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JBlaze1394 said:
Nerd - If I had to guess, I would say that the "mistakes" that you refer to do not prove that it wasn't edited. Personally, I think that those events you described that state that Jesus' prophesies came true only prove that either the events or the prophesy were planted or edited...but thats my personal opinion. Logically, saying that events that depict the "downfall" of a character, yet emphasize and strengthen the main character's position and influence definitely does not qualify as a counterpoint to my earlier argument.

Mcpon - In terms of the womanly influence...I've heard that argument before. It just doesn't strike me as valid. I understand the logic behind it, but it's not the smoking gun validation of the unaltered state of the Bible as some people claim.
I doubt the womanly influence argument is a smoking gun validation either - I was just throwing it out there.

Anyways, as for the prophesies, my Philosophy teacher tells me that Jews says that the Bible does not make any prophesies about Jesus because the statements that were the supposed prophesies were all in past tense. So those statements were not talking about things that were going to happen in the past. Yet, Christians say (according to him) that, eventhough those statements are in past tense, they were still talking about Jesus (such as the statements in Isaiah and Daniel.) I have no idea what to make of that claim by my teacher. What do you guys think? Have you guys ever heard of that before?
He also talked about how Constantine was the one that picked out the number 4 for how many gospels there were going to be in the New Testament, thus, excluding ones such as Thomas, etc. and that is why we have 4 gospels.
 

Crimson King

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Constantine converted to Christianity at the end of his life. He wasn't baptized until he was on his death bed, because he didn't feel worthy. This can bring the idea that maybe he didn't finish his edits until the end of his life.

It's worth noting as well that the Vatican City archieves actually contain all the lost books of the bible and such. Imagine getting in there and finding your evidence.
 

awesomestnerd

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If he was on his death bed, wouldn't that mean that he had a short time to live and would hardly begin his editings of the Bible or finishing his editings?
 

Crimson King

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No, the edits were in his life. His conversion was on his death bed.
 

awesomestnerd

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So....if the edits were in his life, wouldn't that mean that it would make the Bible contradict itself and just be a history book instead of being what it is today?
 

Crimson King

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The bible is contradictory.

I'm not sure how else to put it but it's a known fact the bible wasn't finished (Christan Bible) until 5th century.
 

fiercedeitylives88

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I feel jesus was for sure the messia.
but reasons why he was crucified can
be traced back even to his child hood.
in an exert from the lost books of the bible,
a book containing many things about jesus
that have been ommited from the bible
because it doesn't fit in with their ideology
of christ.

Being a child could you believe that jesus
would abuse his powers?In this book it is
said [one night when lord jesus was walking
home with joseph he met a boy who ran ran
so hard against him that he threw him down
to whom the lord jesus said"as thou has thrown
me down so shalt thou fall nor rise",at that moment
the boy fell down and died. There are also other
passages like this one.

Maybe some of these things that jesus had done as an adolesent
were not overlooked, and in fact contributed to the death of jesus
christ.
 

Yahweh

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Crimson King said:
The bible is contradictory..
Yea, I will have to disagree with this one. The bible is not contradictory, but there is another topic for that discussion so I will not go any further with that.

Crimson King said:
No, the edits were in his life. His conversion was on his death bed.
Your making some large claims without any proof. I have yet to see you provide any shed of evidence to show that Constantine edited the Bible to fit his own needs.

Also, there are no "lost" books in the bible. When you refer to lost books I take it you are refering to the gnostic gospels. You see, there is a problem with the gnostic gospels and their origin. You see, in the first century of Christianity two divisions occured-orthodox and the gnostics. The Orthodox Christians held to the Bible that we have today and what is today considered Orthodox Theology. The Gnostics, on the other hand, held a different view of Jesus Christ and salvation, along with every major Christian belief. However, the Gnostics had no gospels written by the apostles to give legitimacy to their beliefs and, because of this, created the Gnostic Gospels. The Gnostics fradulently attached the name of famous christians to their writtings, such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary. Many people point to the discovery of the Naj Hammadi Library in Egypt during 1945 as the major discovery of the "lost gospels." But all this discovery did was find books that were of heretical in nature. Also, such books, such as the Gospel of Thomas, was written in the 3rd to 4th century AD. These books are clearly false, and anybody who does serious research on them can see that.
 

snex

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The earliest Greek manuscript of the Gospel of Thomas dates to 200AD, and there were most certainly copies floating around before that. Even conservative estimates put Thomas at 90AD, while most scholars place Thomas even before Mark (70AD). Your claims that the Apocrypha were not written by the true apostles are based on the same exact evidence that proves that the real Gospels were not written by true apostles as well, so you can't say that the Gospels hold weight while the Apocrypha do not. You have no real way of distinguishing which books are "true" and which aren't, other than which ones were chosen to be in the Bible and the fact that the Orthodox Christians managed to win out over the Gnostics.

In the end, there is no evidence that Jesus existed at all.
 

Crimson King

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Snex said:
In the end, there is no evidence that Jesus existed at all.
That is incorrect.

In the bible, it states that Joseph and Mary were on their way to Rome for census. Romans were very meticulous with record keeping. According the bible, Jesus was born in Bethelem while on their way to the Roman census station. So, Jesus was recording as being born around the time estimated. To scholars and atheist, this is known as Jesus of History. This Jesus according to Romans records WAS executed via a crucificion by Pontius Pilate for incite revolution. This is recorded.
 

Yahweh

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Crimson King is correct. There is also the recordings of secular scholars such as: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, The Babylonian Talmud, Lucian, Letter of Mara Barsarapion, Thallus, Phlegon, and many many more.
 

snex

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Crimson King is correct that the Bible claims there was a Roman Census at the time, but alas, there was not. No such census was taken at the time described, and other censii(sp?) do not list anybody that could be recognized as Jesus. If you have this so-called census, feel free to present it.

The other secular scholars you mention were not contemporaries of Jesus and were only going on what the Christians told them.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and as a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

--Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18
Josephus wrote around 90AD, and his passage regarding Jesus is mostly fraudulent. We know this because of several lines of evidence. Firstly, none of the early church fathers mention the reference until Eusebius, who is the likely interpolator. Second, it is highly irregular for a Jew such as Josephus to be lauding such praise onto Jesus as the Messiah. The church father Origen even states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. Lastly, this passage does not fit in with its surrounding passages. If we remove it, the passages seem to flow naturally, and this is broken by the insertion.

...derived their name and origin from Christ, who, in the reign of Tiberius, had suffered death by the sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate

-Tacitus, Annals 15.44
Tacitus also wrote around the time of Josephus, and thus was no contemporary to Jesus. This small line of text does not confirm the historical existence of Jesus, as it might just as easily be heresay given to Tacitus by Christians.

They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

--Pliny the Younger, personal letter to Emperor Trajan
Pliny the Younger makes no specific mention of the existence of an historical Jesus whatsoever, but rather corresponded with emperor Trajan around 100AD about the beliefs and practices of Christians in Asia Minor and asks the Emperors advice on what to do about them.

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!

--Babylonian Talmud, Vol. 3, Sanhedrin 43a
The Talmud was completed in the 6th century, long after Christianity had gained favor in the Roman Empire. This is not a record of what happened in the time of Jesus, but rather a later explanation to justify the Jewish rejection of Christianity.

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account....You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.

--Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13
Lucian, again, wrote long after the supposed death of Jesus in the mid-2nd century. Although he refers to Jesus as if he existed, he is again going on heresay by Christians. No contemporary accounts are cited and no historical data used.

What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he enacted.

--Letter of Mara Barsarapion
This is getting closer to contemporary, at 73AD. However, the writer would have likely not known or seen Jesus personally, but rather only have a second-hand account at best. This letter also does not mention Jesus by his name, and in fact contradicts the scriptures. It was the Romans who murdered Jesus, not the Jews. One could argue, though, that it was the Jews who brought him to the Romans and demanded it. In any case, the Jews were guilty of killing many other religious leaders of the time, among which was the Essene Teacher of Righteousness. The letter can refer to any number of people.

Another thing I find odd is that many apologetics websites claim that this letter is housed in the British Museum, yet the Museum website contains no references to it. Can anybody substantiate this?

On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.

Thallus, quoted by Julius Africanus, Chronography 18:1
This passage does not mention Jesus by name, nor his crucifixion. It only mentions an earthquake and darkness. We also do not have Thallus' text directly, only the quote by Africanus. However, it is known that Thallus wrote a large compendium entitled Histories, which span from the fall of Troy to the 167th Olympiad. However, the 167th Olympiad ended in 109BC, long before Jesus was born. Nobody knows when Thallus wrote or lived. This passage could refer to any time within the Histories, or any time after in some other unknown work by Thallus. Another problem with the darkness and earthquake during the death of Jesus is that nobody else mentions it. Thallus is the only one that mentions something like it, but we cannot assign a date to it.

During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.

--Julius Africanus, Chronography 18:1
Unlike Thallus, we do know that Phlegon wrote around 140AD, long after Jesus was gone. Did Phlegon actually see this eclipse? If not, where is he getting the data from? Even if we grant this, the text is not a direct quote of Phlegon, but is in Africanus' own words. We have a direct quoting of Phlegon by Eusebius. Eusebius quotes the following:

Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad, a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea.
Why is this problematic? Firstly, the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad equates to 32AD, which could not have been the crucifixion year as it interferes with biblical prophecy. Secondly, the earthquake is said to have happened in Nicea, over 500 miles from Jerusalem, where the Bible claims it happened. Phlegon was misquoted by Africanus (or some later interpolater), and does not refer to Jesus.

Once again, we see there are exactly ZERO contemporary secular mentionings of Jesus. The closest we come is to a letter written in 73AD (possibly after the Gospel of Mark, which poisons the well) that does not refer to Jesus by name. Is this what Christians want to count for evidence? If so, they will have to let Hercules, Zeus, Beowulf, Robin Hood, King Arthur, and many other fictional characters into the annals of history.
 

JBlaze1394

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You know, snex...I just gained about 400 times the amount of respect for you that I used to have prior to reading your point by point analysis and debunking of Christian fact-by-faith.

Good job, guy. I would like to see anyone take the time and focus to do the same to your argument.
 

Yahweh

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So the base of your argument Snex is that, "They did not live during his time, so their remarks are not credible or they are just heresay so have know credibility." So, by your logic, can ignore all the history writers since most of them did not live during the times in which they speak about? For example, should I ignore the remarks made by Prescott and Sahagun concerning the Aztecs since they were around years after the event occurred? Just because the person and/or writings were not done during the time of Christ does not give it less credibility. If it did, then we should discredit any historical account that is outside of the time period in which it is discussing (i.e. Prescott and the Aztecs, etc, etc, etc....).
 

Mediocre

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Yahweh said:
Whatever He said.
Excuse me for bringing this up, but it seems a little big-headed of you to name yourself after an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent deity.

I guess it's just me, though.
 

snex

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Let's enter the world of make-believe for a moment. Abraham Lincoln died in 1865, but what if our oldest records of his mention only started appearing in 1875? And what if these records did not claim that he was a real man, but a spirit sent by the almighty to free the slaves? And then, starting in 1905, we finally get records of his biography. These records claim that the man was president of the United States, waged a war against his own countrymen, and freed African slaves. Not only this, but these records are all written by those that claim to be his followers and worshippers. There are no contemporary mentions of him by either secular or friendly sources, and the only secular mentions he gets are obviously fraudulent or do not give any real details about him. Would you believe Abraham Lincoln existed if this were the case?

Throw in a few miracles that cannot be attained by humans and you have yourself Christianity in a nutshell.

In regards to Aztec historians, I have not read any, but I assume that they do not simply travel to Mexico and ask modern Mexicans what they think happened with the Aztecs. They work with archaeologists to dig up artifacts from the era they wish to study. They find writings, murals, statues, etc, that are then dated to the time under consideration. They piece together what history they can based on these things. When piecing together these histories, historians often give the benefit of the doubt to the claims of the writers, but after piecing together what they can, they then go over it and offer best-explanations of what they see. One cannot simply take Aztec historians at their word about Aztec history, unless you want to believe that ancient Aztec rulers could defeat armies with fireballs from their eyes and lightning bolts from their arse.

That's the difference between apologetics and real history. Apologists stop at step 1, taking the ancients' words for it. Real historians continue on because it is what the scientific method demands if we want the truth.

edit: In fact, reading my own post over reminds me of the Pompeii exhibit I just saw at the Chicago Field Museum. For anybody nearby, it's a great way of understanding just how history is pieced together from archaeological finds.
 

JBlaze1394

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Actually, Yahweh...and snex, correct me if I'm wrong here...but, I think the basis of his argument was that there is no indisputable evidence from contemporaries of Jesus that he ever actually existed. As I said in an earlier post, history is written by the winners, and religious history even more so...it remains possible that all of the "recordings by secular scholars" (and here, I'm referring only to those that mention Jesus by name, since quite a few do not even go that far) that you referred to a couple of posts ago were all based on the same heresay and non-factual evidence.

There, to me, is a huge difference between history writers basing their discussions (which are still often proved wrong) on archaeological, physical discoveries - such as Prescott and the Aztecs - and religious zealots basing their discussions on religious texts. Claiming the existence of Jesus as fact based solely on his appearance in multiple books (as opposed to verified and corroborated by any physical or geneological means) is ludicrous; many of the same Christian scholars that do this would be the first ones to deconstruct any argument of the same type, or even with more evidence...like, say, the Big Bang Theory.
 

Sephiroth27

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Mediocre said:
Excuse me for bringing this up, but it seems a little big-headed of you to name yourself after an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent deity.

I guess it's just me, though.
He/she is not "naming" themselves after Him. Sephiroth27 is not my name. I highly doubt that mediocre is your name. He/she is NOT saying "Hey look at me, I am the god almighty." You are just going to have to deal with it.
 

Crimson King

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On the contrary, by naming himself after a deity, he is saying he is just as powerful as he. It's supposed to be a sign of respect that no Pope ever named themselves God/Yahweh/Jesus because there can be only one. Likewise to take the name as an online name, claims you are better than anyone else.

So, yes, Mediocre makes a valid point.
 

snex

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valid or not, it has nothing to do with the debate. its an ad hominem and it distracts from the topic.
 

Sephiroth27

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Crimson King said:
On the contrary, by naming himself after a deity, he is saying he is just as powerful as he. It's supposed to be a sign of respect that no Pope ever named themselves God/Yahweh/Jesus because there can be only one. Likewise to take the name as an online name, claims you are better than anyone else.

So, yes, Mediocre makes a valid point.
So, are you better than everyone else? I mean, after all, you are the Crimson KING.

You don't know how the person "Yahweh" thinks. Therefore, don't tell me that he thinks he is "better" than everyone else.
 

Teebs

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I was reading through your first post about how Pilate handed Jesus to the crowds and called him innocent, I believe that is wrong. When Jesus was brought in front of the crowd, there was another man there named Barabas (spelling is off). Pilate asked which of these two men should be crucified, and the crowd shouted Jesus. Pilate then stated, "Why should this man be crucified? He has done nothing wrong! Barabas is a criminal, a thief and murderer!" But the crowd kept shouting, "Crucify Jesus! Crucify Jesus!" (Pilates quote is pretty close to the actual quote from the Bible) And so Barabas was set free. So Pilate sent him off to his crucifixion. Just to give you a bit of correction.

As for the title of the topic, I go with Messiah, from what I know and my strong Christian values and beliefs.
 

The Executive

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I was reading through your first post about how Pilate handed Jesus to the crowds and called him innocent, I believe that is wrong. When Jesus was brought in front of the crowd, there was another man there named Barabas (spelling is off). Pilate asked which of these two men should be crucified, and the crowd shouted Jesus. Pilate then stated, "Why should this man be crucified? He has done nothing wrong! Barabas is a criminal, a thief and murderer!" But the crowd kept shouting, "Crucify Jesus! Crucify Jesus!" (Pilates quote is pretty close to the actual quote from the Bible) And so Barabas was set free. So Pilate sent him off to his crucifixion. Just to give you a bit of correction.

As for the title of the topic, I go with Messiah, from what I know and my strong Christian values and beliefs.
I was going to point that out, but it's unnecessary now.

Jesus never said anything about overthrowing the Roman extablishment, in fact He said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God the things that are God's" in reference to Jews paying Roman taxes and observing Roman laws, meaning He was most certainly not a rebel in that sense. That, going by the thread title, leaves one alternative.
 

Crimson King

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Again, you are going by the book which is BASED on his being the Messiah. The bible wants you to believe he is the Messiah because otherwise, why even write about it?

I was talking about historical evidence to the contrary. Of course now, I know he was either a fraud or a psychopath.
 

The Executive

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Again, you are going by the book which is BASED on his being the Messiah. The bible wants you to believe he is the Messiah because otherwise, why even write about it?

I was talking about historical evidence to the contrary. Of course now, I know he was either a fraud or a psychopath.
You forgot "Lord". Lord is the third choice.
 

Peeze

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This argument of mine is just an opinion I have been forming for an essay in English Composition. I have done no research as to it's validity but I figure other people's opinions on it wouldn't hurt.

Here my hypothesis. There indeed was a man from Nazareth named Jesus who was born of a carpenter and eventually was crucified. This is all documented because Romans were meticulous about keeping records (similar two how meticulous the Nazis were). Now, some people will argue Jesus was the messiah promised by the old testament and he is the chosen one. But, when preached this he was killed for it, according to the bible. The town where he was condemned was ruled by the Sanhedrin, a Jewish OROTHODOX group. They believed in the Fire and Brimstone Lord who torched Sodom and Gamora for being wicked. If they felt Jesus was enough of a threat claiming he was the messiah to have him killed, they would also know, whether right or wrong, Jesus was innocent of any real crime. Also, they knew the Ten Commandments stated that "Thou Shall Not Kill." No exceptions, so they must have had some reason as to why Jesus was condemned other than saying he was the son of God. Also, according to the bible Pilate handed Jesus to the crowds because he found him innocent, but Jesus was still killed. Romans would not have allowed a mob to make a decision like that, especially one of such a popular man. ALSO, since he was murdered by Roman soldiers he had to be convicted of a stately crime and that was treason and sedition. My thing is this. Jesus had quite a little following of people who believed him about loving your fellow man, so this mob that demanded his death would have had to have been high class individuals who would be affected by a rebellion. So, maybe instead of JUST saying he was God's son, he also said rebel against those who don't believe. Which later happened, when Christianity became the religion for the Roman Empire.

I am still formulating this idea, but I want to hear some feedback on it. NO blantant religious bashing or you will be banned from the room indefinately. I want an open-minded debate.
The sanhedrin were hypocrites. They burdened the people with overly weighty traditions not taught in the law(for instance the people had to wash up to their elbows before every meal). They hated Jesus because he taught about God's Kingdom(and because he said their temple would be destroyed which really pissed them off), a new type of government, but he never taught rebellion against rome. The pharisees tried to trap him by asking should they pay taxes to the roman government. He said pay back Caesars things to Caesar but gods things to god. Yes he was killed by the Romans, but are you telling me that a church can't sway a political ruling? Hmm...
And mobs get caught up in the spur of the moment all the time. Those Nazi's (whom you referred to) got their power from the common place, lowly German who would believe anything in a time of economic struggle. Maybe, just maybe the sanhedrin also swayed the people in a similar fashion. Why? Because the people believed him to be the Messiah. they were losing their control, the people flocked to jesus rather than to the synagogue. Remember the synagogue wasn't just a place of worship, it was basically the gathering place of the town. If you were ousted from the synagogue, you were basically shunned by the town. Churches have been using excommunication, or shunning like that for years like that for years(i.e the catholic churches control over england(i think) for centuries)
... or maybe Jesus was a rebel who healed people.
 
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