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Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

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BRoomer
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On paper sure jiggs isn't that great, but in reality the ability to avoid fatal combos and situations in general with good spacing, the ability to combo into extremely low percent kills against the whole cast. and the fact that you can take advantage of people' flaws and mistakes so well really make frame data and kill percents very hard to calculate into jiggs related stuff.

Back 2 years ago when I played melee competitively I'd be laughing at the idea of jiggs being considered anywhere near top teir, but now? I feel like it's obvious jiggs is the best character. Things change, sorry.
 

-ACE-

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I never understand what the big fuss about tier lists is. Unless you're playing in a low tier tournament and the list actually decides which characters are legal, why does it matter?
Some people would like the list to accurate, and you can't really decide on a good list with some discussion and debate. There really is no "big fuss" imo.

jiggs doesn't really show any overwhelming amount of potential
Maybe not in STBM.
 

BRoomer
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you mean five different top level foxes on both sides of the bracket were all beaten by jigglypuffs? crazy.
 

Turbo Ether

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Jigglpuff is the best character in the current Super Smash Bros metagame. "Potential" and "theory" only take you so far.
 

hoopspr226

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I was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.

edit - idc if it happens cuz I know it won't, just saying. Smashboards underrates that character so much.
I'm going to have to call BS on this. I refuse to believe Armada (or any other respectable smasher) is as much of a whiny baby as you are.

Even if one were to accept that Jigglypuff is top tier, there's no way she is banworthy. Just because you don't enjoy playing against her and are bad at the matchup doesn't mean she should be removed from the game. As long as the character has at least a couple 5-5 matchups (which she certainly does, at the very least), it shouldn't be banned.

I also find it hilarious how blatantly biased you are in your stances on banning characters. You were ADAMANTLY opposed to banning metaknight because he "makes the game fun for you" and he has a least a few even/disadvantaged matchups, but in this case you nonsensically are calling for a Jigglypuff ban despite the fact that others (puff players) can easily apply the same exact argument against banning her -____-
 

Mew2King

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if mk gets banned im not going back to melee im quitting smash altogether it'd be too unfair/depressing unless jiggs also got banned in the process. If only MK gets banned (which is BS people are so biased) then I'm done smash it's too unfair

edit - OMFG people I don't ACTUALLY think Jiggs should be banned but if MK "should be banned" in Brawl then Jiggs should in Melee cuz she's even more dominant at the top level she's just not as popular. I'm seriously done with smash in total if my brawl character gets banned though it's ridiculous i didn't even win with him
 

BRoomer
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if mk gets banned im not going back to melee im quitting smash altogether it'd be too unfair/depressing unless jiggs also got banned in the process. If only MK gets banned (which is BS people are so biased) then I'm done smash it's too unfair

edit - OMFG people I don't ACTUALLY think Jiggs should be banned but if MK "should be banned" in Brawl then Jiggs should in Melee cuz she's even more dominant at the top level she's just not as popular. I'm seriously done with smash in total if my brawl character gets banned though it's ridiculous i didn't even win with him
People who actually play brawl can see as good as MK is he doesn't warrant a ban. That much is obvious. Since the same is true with melee jiggs I'm shocked people took that quoted post serious.

It's funny how people think teir lists equate to popularity.
 

gm jack

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But in brawl, characters go even with MK. In practical terms, Jiggs is looking incredibly difficult to beat. I suspect people are going to have to do what the brawl player do against IC, and learn the matchup. I know top player have studied it, but rarely is it pulled off. You have to play completely differently against a puff to most other character.

Essentially, I think people need to find new, gay stalls and camps (or refine current ones) and play really gay. If you approach a jiggs, then can bait and punish really heavily. And if it works against most characters, you can get a big reward by comboing them. Jiggs laughs at that, so inst tead, you just have to play incredibly safely and just add damage whenever possible. And never try and force a kill. Eventually, the safe zoning move will kill.

Jiggs players are winning because they are the safest. Most reward for least risk to themselves. Classic exchanges of combos are never going to work in your favour, so you have to be the only person landing hits, no matter how few or weak.
 

SDC

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Due to the fact that nobody has replied to this already, it seems that everyone knows how BS that is lol. I'm posting this for your sake Sveet XD

1. Surely you can recognize the drastic difference in player skill. Putting some random subpar puff (no offense to Hyuga, he's good, but here's nowhere near M2K's skill) against arguably one of the best foxes in the world is not exactly much of an even matchup.
2. I'm not even a puff main, and I can see all the mistakes Hyuga made in those two matches. Missed edgeguards, missed rests, missed opportunities, and the funniest of all jumping right into countless upsmashes lol. You posting this video here is like me posting a video of my fox being destroyed by Hbox in the matchup threads lol
I hope you recognize this doesn't prove anything Sveet rofl :p

I was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.
I'm going to have to call BS on this. I refuse to believe Armada (or any other respectable smasher) is as much of a whiny baby as you are.

Even if one were to accept that Jigglypuff is top tier, there's no way she is banworthy. Just because you don't enjoy playing against her and are bad at the matchup doesn't mean she should be removed from the game. As long as the character has at least a couple 5-5 matchups (which she certainly does, at the very least), it shouldn't be banned.

I also find it hilarious how blatantly biased you are in your stances on banning characters. You were ADAMANTLY opposed to banning metaknight because he "makes the game fun for you" and he has a least a few even/disadvantaged matchups, but in this case you nonsensically are calling for a Jigglypuff ban despite the fact that others (puff players) can easily apply the same exact argument against banning her -____-
if mk gets banned im not going back to melee im quitting smash altogether it'd be too unfair/depressing unless jiggs also got banned in the process. If only MK gets banned (which is BS people are so biased) then I'm done smash it's too unfair

edit - OMFG people I don't ACTUALLY think Jiggs should be banned but if MK "should be banned" in Brawl then Jiggs should in Melee cuz she's even more dominant at the top level she's just not as popular. I'm seriously done with smash in total if my brawl character gets banned though it's ridiculous i didn't even win with him
whiny baby
 

Overswarm

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Hey guys?

You know why Jiggs is doing so well?


YOU TOOK AWAY HER BAD STAGES.


Bring back stages like Green Greens, Corneria, Pokefloats, Onett, whatever. Stop banning stages because "they're gay" (meaning falcon can't do standard combos because they aren't flat/plat) and you won't see Jiggs dittos all the time.

Seriously.
 

Overswarm

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Enjoy the river god, random bombs and apples falling from the sky, cars running you over, no ledges to grab, and lots of random SD's.
1. They're not random, they're on a pre-determined bomb-block ratio and the speed in which they fall is determined by the highest row of blocks available. Apples are on a variable timer as well and always come in a specified window. I don't remember what it is for Melee; I think it's 15 seconds but I could be mistaken.

2. Cars give you warning before they get there

3. So?

4. I don't randomly SD, sorry to hear about your problems. Just practice, you'll get it.
 

SDC

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Hey guys?

You know why Jiggs is doing so well?


YOU TOOK AWAY HER BAD STAGES.


Bring back stages like Green Greens, Corneria, Pokefloats, Onett, whatever. Stop banning stages because "they're gay" (meaning falcon can't do standard combos because they aren't flat/plat) and you won't see Jiggs dittos all the time.

Seriously.
Lol. I'm all for the new stage list. **** Green Greens, Japes, and Pokefloats. Onett? Rofl.
Enjoy your Jiggs dittos, sir.
Enjoy the river god, random bombs and apples falling from the sky, cars running you over, no ledges to grab, and lots of random SD's.
This thread has become so much awesome. The only way it could get any better is if MaNg0 posted something. Mango, wherefor art thou, mango?

EDIT:
Who else wants to see this adjustment to the tier list become a reality?
Top
Fox 9.88
Marth 9.85
Sheik 9.69
Falco 9.15
Jigglypuff 9.00

High
Peach 8.35
Captain Falcon 8.00
Ice Climbers 7.88
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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1. They're not random, they're on a pre-determined bomb-block ratio and the speed in which they fall is determined by the highest row of blocks available. Apples are on a variable timer as well and always come in a specified window. I don't remember what it is for Melee; I think it's 15 seconds but I could be mistaken.

2. Cars give you warning before they get there

3. So?

4. I don't randomly SD, sorry to hear about your problems. Just practice, you'll get it.
Lol, let me guess, next I get to hear about why items are legit.
 

Overswarm

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New stage list isn't going to make Jiggs suddenly worse.
Certainly not.

It wouldn't stop Mango either; he's got good secondaries.

What it does do is lower the bar.


Let's assume that Mango is a smash god. He will win 98% of the time on his counterpick (he has a good CP) and 98% of the time on the neutral stage (we're assuming they're all good for him and he's better than his opponent).

The only advantage you're going to get is on your own CP. If you take Mango's Jiggs to Pokefloats and laser camp the hell out of him, you abuse Jigglypuff's natural weakness: poor mobility! You can do the same thing on corneria and mess her up since Jiggs is so light.

Now if you lower the stage list options to be primarily the same gameplay on every stage and only have a few slight variations (die 10% faster vertically, 10% slower horizontally, more plats, less plats, etc., etc.), what you're going to find is that whoever benefits from the stage list the most will win.

The example above gives a hypothetical 2% chance to beat mango on the starter or his CP; the odds of doing this twice are astronomically low. If you're able to do it once, you need to be able to win on your CP. If your CP is just your favorite version of stages that Mango also likes, you might as well make it a best of 1.

There are very few anti-Jiggs stages left in Melee. You've lowered the stage list so much that if something works on one stage, it works on almost EVERY stage. This is unheard of in smash, and really lowers the variation in gameplay. That's great for Jiggs, because she's very straightforward and can't adapt nearly as well as, say, Fox.

Create a stagelist that prefers multiple kinds of strengths, get multiple characters showing their strengths. Create a stagelist that prefers only a linear, single type of strength, you'll see the same style of play.

Lol, let me guess, next I get to hear about why items are legit.
Items are not legit. There are specific spawn zones, but where they spawn in relation to them and why they spawn are random and uncontrollable. To make matters worse (and this was the final straw back when items were finally universally banned), some of the capsules explode. You can't turn them off, so items are a no-go. Random exploding of your character is bad.
 

DoctorBendz

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Like I said before,
Jiggs didn't get better in the first place, the biggest difference is that the players who used to defeat Mango have moved on, or don't play as seriously anymore. (Ken, Azen, PC Chris, KDJ, M2K isn't 100% melee, etc.)

THIS IS WHY JIGGS SEEMS SO GOOD IN THE LAST YEAR OR SO. Mango was the only person still playing at that level. Everyone else left. Get better, and stop insulting Mango and Hbox by saying that the character they use is so easy to play and has so many advantages and is the best character in the game.

Less that Jiggs is the best character, more that Mango is the most advanced player right now, and he mains Jiggs.
 

BRoomer
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corneria is stupid fox kills at like 4 percent there.

I do think widening the list of avalible stages would be a healthy choice. It is hard to get people to change their minds though in our comunity.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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Due to the fact that nobody has replied to this already, it seems that everyone knows how BS that is lol. I'm posting this for your sake Sveet XD
Its ok....

YOU'VE ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!!!

1. Surely you can recognize the drastic difference in player skill.
I can, but can you? Its definitely not as simple as looking at the player names LOL

Putting some random subpar puff (no offense to Hyuga, he's good, but here's nowhere near M2K's skill)
Yeah, i'm sure one of the better puffs on WC and a guy who made it to round 3 pools at pound 4 (took a game off cactuar and beat dashdancedan and eggz to get there) is a "random subpar puff".

against arguably one of the best foxes in the world is not exactly much of an even matchup.
which is exactly the point. This is what happens to a puff with a lot of experience and skill when you put him against the best fox in the world.

2. I'm not even a puff main, and I can see all the mistakes Hyuga made in those two matches.
He actually made only a few true mistakes, most of which happened in the first stock of the first game.

Missed edgeguards
you mean this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9BVW83FgVI#t=51s cause he actually didn't have many ways to actually hit m2k where he was firefoxing. If it was marth, it would have been over. Puff has many limitations on her edgeguard/gimp game.


missed rests
he missed one rest while in a place to safely do so and didn't get punished.


missed opportunities
like what?


and the funniest of all jumping right into countless upsmashes lol.
jumping into usmashes and being laser camped til you approach then getting usmashed when you do are very different.


You posting this video here is like me posting a video of my fox being destroyed by Hbox in the matchup threads lol
I hope you recognize this doesn't prove anything Sveet rofl :p
Prove anything? No. I hoped it would open your eyes a little bit, though. Its not like m2k doesn't do the same strat on mango and hbox. Do you realize how precise and perfect you have to play to even get a stock on a fox? Watch that game again, watch how fox's aerials go through puff's and how usmash beats everything puff has and puff can't avoid it because she is slow.

This is seriously one of the worst match-ups in top level play, and mango and hbox have actually convinced people that its in puff's favor. LOL CHARACTER MUST BE BR0K3NZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Overswarm

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corneria is stupid fox kills at like 4 percent there.

I do think widening the list of avalible stages would be a healthy choice. It is hard to get people to change their minds though in our comunity.
I also agree that Corneria is stupid.

Widening the stage list though is the best option. Have the largest amount of options available = best game possible. Lowering options just creates a different kind of game, and you might not like what it brings.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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Corneria is the only stage I think we should bring back.

Also, it'd help if mother****ers just banned Brinstar against Jiggs. The hell is wrong with people.

Like I said before,
Jiggs didn't get better in the first place, the biggest difference is that the players who used to defeat Mango have moved on, or don't play as seriously anymore. (Ken, Azen, PC Chris, KDJ, M2K isn't 100% melee, etc.)
What.

As much as I love those players, Mango has reached a level far exceeding them. In fact, a lot of current players have surpassed them. This isn't basketball where people can compare older players like Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan to current ones like Lebron James and Tim Duncan. People have all gradually gotten much better overall; the old players would get stomped.
 

BRoomer
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I also agree that Corneria is stupid.

Widening the stage list though is the best option. Have the largest amount of options available = best game possible. Lowering options just creates a different kind of game, and you might not like what it brings.
Advice we need in brawl too. My region has no stages available anymore...

And that said, while I do feel like more stages won't be as bad for jiggs as you make it sound it'd definitely help a great deal of the cast out.
 

Overswarm

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Advice we need in brawl too. My region has no stages available anymore...

And that said, while I do feel like more stages won't be as bad for jiggs as you make it sound it'd definitely help a great deal of the cast out.
The problem with Brawl is that a lot of people don't like hte idea of "hard counters" or playing more than one character. :\

I've been making custom stages to test out their viability. If it all goes well, hopefully we'll see custom stages come up in the future to fill the gap of the stages people don't want.
 

DoctorBendz

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Tbh I think Mango has reached a level that no other player has yet to reach.
-I think a lot of people think so.

I don't need to disagree with that. If this is the case, then it's obviously unfair to base which character is the best off of Mango's play, since he's widely considered the best player, and he Mains Jiggs, which means that his jiggs beats other player's anything, regardless of what the MU is... because he's the best player. Not because jiggs is the best character.

I'm trying to say that if another player was at Mango's level with a top level character, I think Mango would lose. Mango doesn't play his other characters at the same level he plays Jiggs, which was made pretty clear in his match v M2K during genesis crews I think, so him having to switch to Jiggs in order to beat Hbox just means that Jiggs is his Main, and he's the most comfortable playing Jiggs, from what I see. Would you play a secondary character in a match for a couple thousand dollars? I sure as hell wouldn't.

If the current best player mains a jigglypuff, then obviously, the current tournament results will show jigglypuff at #1. But a player being good doesn't necessarily mean that the character is good.

In any case, people just need to relax about this issue. We know which half of the cast is good and bad, I would say. It seems like people are just splitting hairs at this point, and everyone knows that this isn't going to go anywhere.

I think it would be much more productive to have a Jiggs match up thread, or a Jiggs CP stage thread or just a thread discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the character, rather then argue about what number she is in a list. That way, people who are stoked on Jiggs could show people what's so great about her and help jiggs mains defeat their opponents, and people who dislike her could counter that with ways to defeat jiggs, giving those people who complain about how 'gay' jiggs is something to practice instead of just running their mouth until someone gives them what they want. (I know the info exists already, i'm just saying.)


**** this got long. Just trying to make sure I don't get the wrong meaning across...
 

DoctorBendz

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What.

As much as I love those players, Mango has reached a level far exceeding them. In fact, a lot of current players have surpassed them. This isn't basketball where people can compare older players like Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan to current ones like Lebron James and Tim Duncan. People have all gradually gotten much better overall; the old players would get stomped.
Yeah, I don't disagree. They all stopped playing, so of course if they came back at the same level as they were they would get stomped. Not what I meant to say.

But, if all of them had been playing seriously, evolving with the community, actively discovering new techniques like they used to this entire time? I'm not so sure they would be getting stomped if that were the case. That's what I meant to say.
 

Toobz

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-I think a lot of people think so.

I don't need to disagree with that. If this is the case, then it's obviously unfair to base which character is the best off of Mango's play, since he's widely considered the best player, and he Mains Jiggs, which means that his jiggs beats other player's anything, regardless of what the MU is... because he's the best player. Not because jiggs is the best character.
But that's all we have. The best player in the world mains jiggs. Saying that another character is better at this point is pure opinion. Until someone starts winning with another character, I don't think we have a choice but to accept that Jiggs is the best character in the game (currently). I think she has been the best for almost 3 years. The playstyles change, the metagame changes, but why can't the tier list change? All a tier list can do is represent what the best character currently is. The only way to determine that is with tournament results. If you think that Fox is still the best character in the game for winning tournaments, then you must think that jigglypuff wins every big tournament by fluke. Sure that could happen once, but not every major tourney for two and half years.

I think its just human nature to reject change in general. This is one of the stupidest and most pointless changes to reject though. You guys who think jiggs isn't the best have no factual evidence to support your claims.
 

Charlesz

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falco, fox, jiggs are the best chars in the game for sure in that order

jiggs is just the eaiser of the 3 to play imo.
marth is mad overrated. sheik still *****.
marth is not mad overrated lololol.
 

TheManaLord

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Good luck beating a laser camping Fox that is willing to run the timer.
That sort of attitude is ********. The jiggs can spawn and instantly airdodge to a ledge and ledgestall the entire time.

Stupid theory is stupid, a stupider theory beats it.
 
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