Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

[Toobz]

I know. But everyone has tried outcamping jigglypuff. It just doesn't work. Camping hasn't saved Fox and Falco, or any other character against jiggly's air mobility. She doesn't have to approach, but she can easily and safely close any gap that her opponent tries to create. From there she can punish.

 

[Anth0ny]

Armada told me a day and a half ago in person at the hotel that he thinks Jiggs should be banned. Mango said Jiggs is dumb after pound4 ended. I don't want Jiggs banned but I do think she deserves it more than MK by comparison.

Jiggs.

Gayer than ****ING META KNIGHT. You heard it here first folks

Spoiler

M2K pick up Jiggs as a secondary for the lols

 

[Rubyiris]

Raistlin is 100% right though. Like the entire melee scene is comprised of people who suck.

Forward and Jman are like two of the only players who use their characters correctly, and even then there's still a gigantic margin for improving.

Fox never has to approach outside of a few exceptions, like against Falco/Fox, and to some extent, Falcon.

Yes, it IS that easy to beat jigglypuff, but people are impatient, and they have this ****ty mindset that they just have to approach, as if there is no other option.

In this respect, brawl players are much better than us. at least they understand how to play their game properly. melee is like almost entirely comprised of scrubs.

 

[Toobz]

Raistlin is 100% right though. Like the entire melee scene is comprised of people who suck.

Forward and Jman are like two of the only players who use their characters correctly, and even then there's still a gigantic margin for improving.

Fox never has to approach outside of a few exceptions, like against Falco/Fox, and to some extent, Falcon.

Yes, it IS that easy to beat jigglypuff, but people are impatient, and they have this ****ty mindset that they just have to approach, as if there is no other option.

In this respect, brawl players are much better than us. at least they understand how to play their game properly. melee is like almost entirely comprised of scrubs.

Good lord...

 

[TheManaLord]

That's ****ing ********.

 

[Brick_Top]

In this respect, brawl players are much better than us. at least they understand how to play their game properly. melee is like almost entirely comprised of scrubs.

this is hilarious

 

[Charlesz]

Lol rubyiris.

 

[-ACE-]

Hahaha, wow.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Got trolled by Ruby XD

 

[The Good Doctor]

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Revolving door? Whatever. And I'm not saying that camping is fullproof, but it is definitely much more effective than any other playstyle against her. She can't keep up with the other characters, so if you don't approach, she is forced to approach you, which means you won't have as many opportunities to screw up. Try to think before just dismissing **** out of hand. I'm a Jiggs main, I think I know what I'm talking about.

You can't get a simple analogy? I'm tired of hearing people saying the same stupid stuff do to against puff. Obviously Mango/HBox are playing against "The best players" You would think if Jiggs sucked against "Patient" play they would lose occasionally. Word is Mango almost NEVER loses, and HBox is getting to his level against the rest of the community.

This isn't because they are just that good, Don't get me wrong they are a couple of the best. One has to look at the character sometime, not just the player. Mango seems to beat every player, every character, on every stage. You need to realize Jiggs is top tier, and in the hands of great players like Mango, Jiggs can't be beaten with such moves as campling and running away at top level play.

If it could be done, it would have happened long ago, it's been TWO years. not a few months, years. Jiggs is better than Fox. Everyone just has to accept it.

 

[KikoMePlease]

Well you know what guys?

I'm gay.

 

[Charlesz]

You can't get a simple analogy? I'm tired of hearing people saying the same stupid stuff do to against puff. Obviously Mango/HBox are playing against "The best players" You would think if Jiggs sucked against "Patient" play they would lose occasionally. Word is Mango almost NEVER loses, and HBox is getting to his level against the rest of the community.

This isn't because they are just that good, Don't get me wrong they are a couple of the best. One has to look at the character sometime, not just the player. Mango seems to beat every player, every character, on every stage. You need to realize Jiggs is top tier, and in the hands of great players like Mango, Jiggs can't be beaten with such moves as campling and running away at top level play.

If it could be done, it would have happened long ago, it's been TWO years. not a few months, years. Jiggs is better than Fox. Everyone just has to accept it.

Lol mango ***** everyone with the character that he plays ( fox, falcon,falco,jiggs) . He even beat hungrybox at winterfest GF with fox. Jiggs is possibly better than fox at a tourny level because jiggs requires is less physically and mentally demanding than fox. Jiggs is not better than fox.

 

[Strong Badam]

you guys should seriously stop posting now

 

[Moooose]

Raistlin is 100% right though. Like the entire melee scene is comprised of people who suck.

Forward and Jman are like two of the only players who use their characters correctly, and even then there's still a gigantic margin for improving.

Fox never has to approach outside of a few exceptions, like against Falco/Fox, and to some extent, Falcon.

Yes, it IS that easy to beat jigglypuff, but people are impatient, and they have this ****ty mindset that they just have to approach, as if there is no other option.

In this respect, brawl players are much better than us. at least they understand how to play their game properly. melee is like almost entirely comprised of scrubs.

instead of just flaming him, realize he does have valid points. since brawl is a much simpler game, the players understand the fundaments alot better. melee players tend to overemphasize the technical aspect of the game. however, there are ALOT more players than forward and jman who play correctly.

 

[holypho]

Lol mango ***** everyone with the character that he plays ( fox, falcon,falco,jiggs) . He even beat hungrybox at winterfest GF with fox. Jiggs is possibly better than fox at a tourny level because jiggs requires is less physically and mentally demanding than fox. Jiggs is not better than fox.

I think thats right. physically the controller work you need to put in is crazy.....and mentally you have to come up with so many mindgames, have good spacing and what not to not get ledge jacked, basically off the edge for fox is hard becuz ledge patrol is always there. I feel fox has to put too much effort in not getting hit more than other characters like CF or Falco, cuz the second they have an opening they can take control and not let go

 

[Velox]

Well you know what guys?

I'm gay.

fa99otten chars

 

[Lovage]

Raistlin is 100% right though. Like the entire melee scene is comprised of people who suck.

Forward and Jman are like two of the only players who use their characters correctly, and even then there's still a gigantic margin for improving.

Fox never has to approach outside of a few exceptions, like against Falco/Fox, and to some extent, Falcon.

Yes, it IS that easy to beat jigglypuff, but people are impatient, and they have this ****ty mindset that they just have to approach, as if there is no other option.

In this respect, brawl players are much better than us. at least they understand how to play their game properly. melee is like almost entirely comprised of scrubs.

jesus christ what the **** are you so bitter about

 

[Brick_Top]

I feel fox has to put too much effort in not getting hit more than other characters like CF or Falco, cuz the second they have an opening they can take control and not let go

Well falco has shorter recovery than fox, so why should he worry less about getting hit than fox?

 

[Toobz]

Lol mango ***** everyone with the character that he plays ( fox, falcon,falco,jiggs) . He even beat hungrybox at winterfest GF with fox. Jiggs is possibly better than fox at a tourny level because jiggs requires is less physically and mentally demanding than fox. Jiggs is not better than fox.

The tier list ranks how good a character is in competitive play. Nothing is more competitive than a tournament. Therefore, whichever character is winning the most tournaments is the best character. Casual play and Single player mode have nothing to do with the tier list. Neither does theory. Results. Are. All. That. Matter.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Lol mango ***** everyone with the character that he plays ( fox, falcon,falco,jiggs) . He even beat hungrybox at winterfest GF with fox. Jiggs is possibly better than fox at a tourny level because jiggs requires is less physically and mentally demanding than fox. Jiggs is not better than fox.

Tell that to me when a Fox can beat Mango even half the time. Players make mistakes, Mango isn't some amazing guy that doesn't mess up. His character just prevents him for getting punished. IMO. the best tournament character, is also the best character at the moment.

Right now, it's Jiggs, not Fox. Fox may have more "potential" but Jiggs beats him at the moment more than Fox beats Jiggs.

Mango seems to switch to Jiggs during grand finals, I want to see him not lean on Jiggs at all for a FEW TOURNAMENTS to see how he stacks up.

Mango is an amazing player, but he isnt the the most technical, he has less experience, and plays an easier character in big spots than some other top players.

Edit: This isn't the infant stages of Melee anymore, people unlock the potential of other characters. It seems like most charcters have hit rough patches as of late, while Jigg's metagame has been evolving. Already overpowering as she is, she is ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER.

 

[TresChikon]

The tier list ranks how good a character is in competitive play. Nothing is more competitive than a tournament. Therefore, whichever character is winning the most tournaments is the best character. Casual play and Single player mode have nothing to do with the tier list. Neither does theory. Results. Are. All. That. Matter.

Tourney results also factor in representation of characters.

Everyone playing one character doesn't make it a better character.

Tourney results =/= tier list.

 

[Toobz]

Tourney results also factor in representation of characters.

Everyone playing one character doesn't make it a better character.

Tourney results =/= tier list.

I'm not sure I follow. Not everyone is playing jiggs. I never said that. Tournament results as a basis for the tier list only work for the top 7 or 8 characters, obviously. But who gives a **** about the low tier placement anyway. We're talking about the top tier here.

 

[Raistlin]

I don't think she's better than Fox. The matchup is pretty even, really. She can mess him up pretty bad in a multitude of ways, but she has to catch him first. And Jiggs dies soooo early from attacks that are much easier to land and much more spammable than rest. If Fox grabs you at 50%, it's a stock on most stages, and he can get that 50% very quickly. Don't even get me started on up smash lol. It is not an easy match for either character, and definitely not largely in favor for either of them.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

The tier list ranks how good a character is in competitive play. Nothing is more competitive than a tournament. Therefore, whichever character is winning the most tournaments is the best character. Casual play and Single player mode have nothing to do with the tier list. Neither does theory. Results. Are. All. That. Matter.

If this were true, the tiers would be determined solely by statistics, and not the opinions of a bunch of people on this forum. Theory completely defines who the best characters are. Results tend to follow theory, but that doesn't mean we can trust them to give a sufficient depiction of how the game actually is. Marth was not "the best character" in 06 or whatever--a lot of people just thought he was. That's important in its own right, but seriously, this "the best character is whoever happens to be winning when I make this statement" business is just toxic.

 

[theunabletable]

No theorycraft is NOT what we need to rank who is best in the game.

I'll give an easy example of how ******** using solely theorycraft to see who the best in the game is:

In Brawl ICs are the best because if you perfect shield SDI everything you can shield grab everything and infinite them from every single blocked attack.

It's completely impractical and cannot be done by players.

If no player can beat Mango's Puff, then currently Puff is the best in the game.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

It's completely impractical and cannot be done by players.

Then obviously the theory you'd be using would be terribly flawed. I'm not talking about the "technical limits of the characters," I'm talking about the amount of success a character can be expected to have at our current understanding of what the "top level of play" can be. This takes player skill into account, but not to the extent that "Marth is the best. why? well, because ****, I just think Ken is the bee's knees." That's bull****. If a character is the best, you can articulate why that is the case in words, with theory. It's not difficult.

 

[Toobz]

If this were true, the tiers would be determined solely by statistics, and not the opinions of a bunch of people on this forum. Theory completely defines who the best characters are. Results tend to follow theory, but that doesn't mean we can trust them to give a sufficient depiction of how the game actually is. Marth was not "the best character" in 06 or whatever--a lot of people just thought he was. That's important in its own right, but seriously, this "the best character is whoever happens to be winning when I make this statement" business is just toxic.

Well then the tier list isn't an effective way of describing the competitive scene. Which what I always thought was its purpose anyway. The tier list describes which the best character is. Theory is not part of the game. Playing it and observing the results is the only way to decide it. Its scientific. The tier list shouldn't be a static entity. It should change along with the game. And god**** its high time we had a change. We need the MBR to open their eyes already.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I think we need to stop debating Jiggs' validity as a top tier character and instead ask "what the hell is a tier?"

We're arguing two different arguments here, so it's no wonder we can't reach a consensus. What we need is a definitive meaning of a "tier list." A vague definition will only lead to debate over how tiers are determined so instead of making a new tier list, we should try to define it first. After that, tier positions can truly be discussed.

 

[Toobz]

Then obviously the theory you'd be using would be terribly flawed. I'm not talking about the "technical limits of the characters," I'm talking about the amount of success a character can be expected to have at our current understanding of what the "top level of play" can be. This takes player skill into account, but not to the extent that "Marth is the best. why? well, because ****, I just think Ken is the bee's knees." That's bull****. If a character is the best, you can articulate why that is the case in words, with theory. It's not difficult.

Read the whole thread. There are plenty of reasons why, and yes, those reasons are articulated adequately.

 

[TresChikon]

Theory completely defines who the best characters are.

Careful there lol.

According to theory, Bowser, Falco, and Fox are god tiers.

Realistically, understanding the extent of known tools available to each character and how far it can take them in each matchup seems to me as the definition of a tier list.

Tier lists should evolve based on what new tools become available to characters and/or how existing tools are used. The more useful and effective tools become for a character, the better the character becomes.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Obviously people need to realize how good she is even if you don't understand the technical aspects of the game which is untrue for any other character.

I'll post about this tomorrow if this topic isn't locked.

 

[TresChikon]

Basing the tier list off of tournament results is simply backwards logic. Tournament results SHOULD reflect the metagame or the tier list, not the other way around.

Think of it as a class.

Just because you pass a class, it doesn't mean you know the material. However, if you know the material, you SHOULD pass the class.

Likewise, just because Jiggs had top placings, it doesn't mean she is at the top. However, if Jiggs was top tier, she SHOULD have top placings.

The reason why I emphasize "should" is because in real life, there are other factors changing the outcome. Like character representation for example.

Similarly, in school, you could know all of the material and have all the potential, but still fail the class because of other factors such as: test anxiety, laziness, having a ***** for a teacher, etc.

Jiggs just happens to be that not-so-smart kid who worked really hard and got a higher grade than the know-it-all-Asian-kid Fox who slacked off all year like a douchebag.

****, somebody tell me they get it.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

Well then the tier list isn't an effective way of describing the competitive scene. Which what I always thought was its purpose anyway. The tier list describes which the best character is. Theory is not part of the game. Playing it and observing the results is the only way to decide it. Its scientific. The tier list shouldn't be a static entity. It should change along with the game. And god**** its high time we had a change. We need the MBR to open their eyes already.

We're using these undefined terms of "tier" and "competitive" and it's really getting us nowhere. What we're really looking at are two separate interpretations of what "best" is. I'm looking at "best" as a measure of character strength given the highest known practical level of play (this is "theoretical" in that we're not actually experiencing the highest practical level of play at any given moment). You're basically defining "best" as "whichever characters have the most success." I have two things to say about this: 1), both of these interpretations are potentially valid and interesting things for us to look at, and 2), only one of them actually measures which character is the best, and it isn't yours.

Should the tier list measure one of these things over the other? Maybe. Is your interpretation maybe of greater relevance to whatever the community might be looking for in a tier list? You could probably argue that. If someone from an outside community were to ask us who the "best character in the game is," should we point to Mango and Hungrybox and say "isn't it obvious? It's Jigglypuff"? No. My issue with your position is that you're combining these two distinct concepts of how character ranking could possibly be handled. The language behind it isn't important--you can continue to say that whichever character has the most tournament success is "the best," but you'll still be talking about something decidedly separate from those of us with a more intuitive understanding of what "best" is. You'll just be calling it the same thing, which causes confusing discussions like this where half of it is just us working out what the hell the other even means by "best" in the first place.



TresChikon, I agree with pretty much everything you just said. When I reference "theory," I'm not talking about frame-perfect shenanigans and other such nonsense, I'm talking about... pretty much exactly what you are.

 

[theunabletable]

Then obviously the theory you'd be using would be terribly flawed. I'm not talking about the "technical limits of the characters," I'm talking about the amount of success a character can be expected to have at our current understanding of what the "top level of play" can be. This takes player skill into account, but not to the extent that "Marth is the best. why? well, because ****, I just think Ken is the bee's knees." That's bull****. If a character is the best, you can articulate why that is the case in words, with theory. It's not difficult.

Explaining theory is pointless when I can just point out that every single major tourney is won by a Jiggs.

I'm looking at "best" as a measure of character strength given the highest known practical level of play

The only factual way to measure what is practical play is to look at tournament representation.

Mango is the epitome of the current Jiggs metagame. Mango's Jiggs is currently the best character in the game. This level of Jiggs beats the top level of every character in PRACTICAL PLAY.

Thus the highest current level of Jiggs is the best in the game in practical play.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

I think I'm actually going to sleep worse after having read that post.

 

[Igcoris]

i lol'd so hard at the 5 post chain combo of facepalms after ruby posted

 

[Raistlin]

Basing the tier list off of tournament results is simply backwards logic. Tournament results SHOULD reflect the metagame or the tier list, not the other way around.

Think of it as a class.

Just because you pass a class, it doesn't mean you know the material. However, if you know the material, you SHOULD pass the class.

Likewise, just because Jiggs had top placings, it doesn't mean she is at the top. However, if Jiggs was top tier, she SHOULD have top placings.

The reason why I emphasize "should" is because in real life, there are other factors changing the outcome. Like character representation for example.

Similarly, in school, you could know all of the material and have all the potential, but still fail the class because of other factors such as: test anxiety, laziness, having a ***** for a teacher, etc.

Jiggs just happens to be that not-so-smart kid who worked really hard and got a higher grade than the know-it-all-Asian-kid Fox who slacked off all year like a douchebag.

****, somebody tell me they get it.

lol, I like it. the only problem I have with the analogy is that we all know Asian kids wouldn't slack off, their parents would KILL them.

 

[Rubyiris]

fox may well be the best character in the game but i haven't seen anyone in the community with the endurance to play fox at the highest level possible throughout an entire tournament

jigglypuff does not require that intense physical endurance to be consistent for a 2 day tournament, at least not that i'm aware of

which is why i think she's the top contender for a #1 placement in tournament

don't forget PP won r1 vs hbox @ rom2, by like last stock last hit, and played perfectly the whole match. once you mess up you die vs jiggs.

all the top tiers have a chance @ winning tournies i just think it's really hard for fox and falco these days, particularly for fox.

hbox have a little confidence dude, nobody likes a brat

rubyiris has been trying to troll my **** for the past week lol you think i give a ****? who is that kid some nub scrub that literally everyone hates who has never placed in a tournament at all who probably has been playing the game for years and has nothing to show for it lol you prob made an easy G @ pound just count your cash buy yourself a cheeseburger and **** everybody else

take a page out of g-reg's book

old, but if you're going to try and flame me, at least do a little research on who I am you piece of shit

 

[Rubyiris]

i lol'd so hard at the 5 post chain combo of facepalms after ruby posted

I loled at how all of them are ****ty *** players who obviously don't understand this game. It's not even theorybrothers. It's the truth of things.

Also no, people haven't even started to attempt to camp Jigglypuff. Everyone still approaches her like its the only possible option.

 

[Igcoris]

I loled at how all of them are ****ty *** players who obviously don't understand this game. It's not even theorybrothers. It's the truth of things.

Also no, people haven't even started to attempt to camp Jigglypuff. Everyone still approaches her like its the only possible option.

honestly, i don't play this game to wait around. that's why i picked the most offensive (imo) character, falco.

i agree though. more mistakes are made approaching than camping, but like hell i'm gonna turn a game of melee into something brawl like.