Jigglypuff: Official Character Discussion

[KishSquared]

Discussion for the Jiggled One. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. No changes will be made without three votes. Default physics values will be used unless new ones are suggested are earn three votes.

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:

Default Physics:
SH: .95
FH: 1.0
FF: 1.3
DGrav: 1.0
Grav: 1.0

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:
Rest: More KB (Kish2[2.0], Almas, Kupo[2.0], Osi, LG386, Cape, Kaotical, Kish1[2.0], Foxy)
Rest: Less Ending Lag (LG386, Kish1, Foxy)
Sing: Faster (Almas, Foxy)
Dthrow: Less KB (Almas, Kish2[.9], Cape, Kaotical, Foxy, Osi)
Uthrow: Less KB (Almas, Kish2[.9], Cape, Kaotical, Foxy, Osi)
Fthrow: More KB (Foxy, Osi)
Bthrow: More KB (Foxy, Osi)

Anything else:
Extend hitboxes on sing, if possible (Almas, Osi)
Make singing ledge cancel easier, if possible (Almas)

 

[KishSquared]

Reserved for votes.

 

[Almas]

All things considered, I think Jigglypuff is a great character. Her aerial game is easily one of the best in the game, she's got an awesome recovery, and she has sufficient kill moves. She doesn't really need boosting in any way.

If, at a later time, we decided she did need boosting, the key things to change would be her Sing and Rest, though. Sing was bad enough in Melee and it seems to have been toned down even further in Brawl - things like ledge cancelled sings are even harder to perform, while Rest only becomes a kill move around the same time her other moves do. So she could use some form of speed increase on Sing (preferably moving the hitboxes if we ever find a way to do it), and a Knockback increase on Rest.

I guess she could also use a slightly better throw game, like so many other characters, whose throws are stuck between being usable for comboing and being used as a kill move. A slight knockback reduction on her D and U throws would let her set up into combos more easily. Pound being the amazing starter move as well as approach that it is, though, I don't see this being too much of an issue.

 

[KishSquared]

Without stale moves, Jiggly's fair is much more beastly than it is in vBrawl. One of her banes in vBrawl is that her fair is not only her best approach, but it's also her best kill move. By using it as an approach, she loses her ability to kill. So I don't think this needs a boost.

I'll suggest a 1.5x increase to rest. That might sound extreme, but rest was extreme in Melee and it wasn't broken. I want to restore rest to what it used to be.

Sing has never been useful as a straight-up move. Ledge cancelling was the only thing it was useful for, and even that was only rarely useful. If it can be done in Brawl+ as it is, even if it's difficult, it probably doesn't need any changes. And honestly, if we buff rest, we should be careful about buffing sing because it might mean a free rest.

I'd be fine with voting for a KB decrease on uthrow/dthrow. Start them at 90%?

 

[kupo15]

rest should be buffed to its original KO power. It was great in 64 and melee and flat out sucks in brawl

 

[shanus]

agreed on buffing rest.

 

[KishSquared]

Any initial values you guys want to suggest? I arbitrarily tossed out 1.5x, but I'm up for discussing it.

 

[kupo15]

well it killed at what, 40% before? Atm it kills Mario at 80ish without DI so I say double the kb power as a beta

 

[KishSquared]

I'll agree to 2x. Let's beast it.

 

[shanus]

If we are gonna beast it, can we remove the flower?

 

[kupo15]

hate that flower

 

[CT Chia]

i feel that jigglypuff was extremely floaty in brawl and slow in general. then again, i just realized iv never played her in B+ yet lol, so a lot of this might be fixed

 

[Osi]

Yay, I was waiting for this! Here are my current thoughts on jiggly:

Movement:

I really think she was near perfect in beta 2. The float and jump she has is such a large asset to her game in brawl+. She needs the upward movement and float to continue the up air combos into rest without the opponent leaving hitstun as they fall faster. Try some matches with jiggly set to higher grav and watch how unreliable the rest combos are. I honestly think she is set right for physics if the others do not become floatier than they are now. With this float she can also do WOP really easily and make it back to stage. I would only think the fast fall on her could be faster to help her speed if anything because it will not affect her float. This could give much more control on rest/WOP combos.

Attacks:

Rest – This needs a minor buff. I think it needs the knockback to kill at 20-30%. She can combo well into it now, and really combos into it at 20-60%. It’s a little much for her to need an opponent 60-80% at the end of a combo to rest them out of the screen.

Pound – Jiggly needs to have less lag on this attack. She would be able to use it much better if she could follow up into the air faster, and use it faster on the ground after it hits. Maybe we can cut 3-4 frames off the end/or landing animation on it?

Sing – This move needs much further range added to it. Currently the sing edge stalling does not hit people from far enough. The enemy must be right on the edge to connect making the sing edge cancel to rest nerfed a lot.

 

[kupo15]

Jiggs hasn't changed from b2 actually. I don't agree with less lag on the pound and Im iffy about even buffing sing. I doubt anyone would still use it if it had better range

 

[leafgreen386]

Woah woah guys. Let's not get too buff happy here. Buffing rest, buffing pound, and buffing sing? All the same time? That could all result in a guaranteed 0-rest combo every time she gets a hit, and we do not want that. Buffing rest? Fine with me. Buffing the other two? I'm thinking no.

Also, most moves kill off the top when they reach a launch speed of 6200-6300 or so in reg brawl, iirc. Obviously, our gravity changes will have an effect on that, but it gives you an idea. Jiggs' rest has a launch speed of 4133 against a 0% mario right now (the move does a whopping 15% pre-flower), and doesn't kill until sometime after 60% but before or at 70% (I was using the handicaps to test, so I couldn't test values in between). So obviously the majority of the knockback on that move is coming from base knockback. In fact, a quick check using one of colin's java applets shows that the rest has a growth rate of 30 and a base launch speed of 3655. If we were to just increase its damage back up to melee standards and get rid of the stupid flower, it might actually start killing at decent percents again, only needing a very small change to the growth rate.

We may also need to decrease the lag slightly so that no character can punish her for landing the move.

 

[Osi]

I didn't mean to imply buff all. I was just giving my impressions on what we could buff to make her better in order of importance.

 

[Foxy]

I main Jiggs in Melee, and I am VERY familiar with her tactics, combos, and playstyle, so as soon as I get my hands on the new codesets (out of an SD card right now), I'll play her a bunch and let you know.

Also, about Rest, in Melee on smaller stages (without smash DI) it can kill EASILY from one uthrow (about 10%?). On a larger stage, it takes maybe 20%-40%, depending on DI.

 

[KishSquared]

We may also need to decrease the lag slightly so that no character can punish her for landing the move.

Not entirely sure what you mean here, but if Jiggly lands a rest and the opponent survives, there's nothing wrong with her getting punished. Happened in Melee all the time. It means you used it too early and you deserve to get hit. The only reason this seems like a bad thing in Brawl is because people land it at 60% and it doesn't kill, but we're getting rid of that.

I agree that we should hold off on sing buffs, and maybe even pound buffs. I commented earlier that the lack of stale moves will help Jiggs out a ton.

Anyone think she needs to live longer, i.e. more KB resistance?

EDIT: By the way everyone, the point of these threads is to come up with codes to use for this character, so it helps to present actual values. Saying that something needs to be increased is fine for discussion, but at some point we need to discuss values.

Osi, if you want to propose physics changes, let us know which values you want to change so we can discuss them.

 

[The Cape]

Agree with throws KB nerf and Rest buff.

 

[KishPrime]

I mained Jiggly in Melee...

I do think that buffs are getting a bit out of hand. Rest could probably use almost double the power, but if it's easier to combo into it then that may just be plain unrealistic. We can't make Brawl Jiggly play like Melee Jiggly because the hitboxes and relative knockbacks are completely different.

Rest absolutely does not need to have a shorter sleep duration.

 

[Kaotical]

Agree with throws KB nerf and Rest buff.

Second this.

 

[Foxy]

Time for some input and serious votes; but before I begin:

Regarding her throw attributes, which hasn't been specifically addressed here yet: her throws are completely different from Melee due to one large change; now, they have very high (relative) initial knockback, but increase incredibly slowly. I personally follow and perform speed runs (not into Smash ones myself) and therefore I saw the use of Jiggs' throws in 1-Player speedruns on low difficulties because they instantly KO thanks to the high initial knockback. Not only does this strip the utility of dthrow and uthrow at low-mid %'s, but it ALSO does the same for fthrow and bthrow at mid-high %'s.

While we're all so focused on uthrow to rest and it's kin, we've lost a bit of sight of Jiggs' non-rest edgeguarding gimps, which are preferably set up by an fthrow or bthrow at the edge. Her fair and bair are still perfectly valid for those gimps, but the throws never get enough knockback in Brawl to do the same (and also send the opponent at too vertical an angle, although I'm not sure how the fall speed changes that). I think that raising the KB of the f- and b-throws is just as important as lowering the KB of the u- and d-throws.

So, two new proposals:

Fthrow: More KB
Bthrow: More KB

Rest: More KB (Kish2[2.0], Almas, Kupo[2.0], Osi, LG386, Cape)

+A no-brainer. I'd recommend starting at 2x and adjust from there. Also, is there any way we can give it horizontal KB again?

Rest: Less Ending Lag (LG386)

-Doesn't make any sense. Punishing rest was an important facet of a matchup against Jiggs in Melee, and it shouldn't be any different in Brawl. It even made players attempt horizontal DI, use lasers for more damage, and other inventive strategies. Definitely not a recommended change.

Pound: Less Ending Lag (Osi)

-I don't see any reason why she needs this. Pound in Brawl, as far as I've seen, has LESS ending lag than in Melee. It's already good.

Sing: Faster (Almas)

-I don't have any issues with Brawl's sing. If it's worse, I feel that it's a necessary difference. I still think it's already very easy to sing-stall and the results are comparable to the tactic in Melee.

Dthrow: Less KB (Almas, Kish2[.9], Cape)
Uthrow: Less KB (Almas, Kish2[.9], Cape)

+Yes, yes, and yes.

 

[Osi]

I agree with the down/up throw sending them less vertical distance. You bring up a great point with the KB on the side throws too! I never thought about making them send further to set up off stage gimps, but that does sound like a nice addition to changes for her.

After playing around a bit more I'm going to have to take back the pound comment. While I think it would help her a little it's probably fast enough now, and it would be a wasted fix that could be done to any of the other areas listed.

 

[Almas]

As leaf said, a 2x knockback change would cause rest to more or less univerally kill at 0%.

 

[KishSquared]

Is that a good or bad thing, Almas?

If everyone could toss out more values, that would help

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm telling you, the reason the rest is so weak is because it does so little damage. Thus, even completely ignoring the fact that it's a slightly weaker move to begin with, it won't launch as far as it did in melee if it hits a foe at the same percent. If we were to just adjust the damage the move does to be the full damage that it would do with the flower and remove the flower effect, it should be plenty powerful enough that it may not even need a knockback increase. After this, if we did change its launch speed, we would only have to increase its growth rate very very slightly to achieve the desired effect.

Ultimately, for knockback related fixes, I think it'd be best if we discuss how we want the move to act, rather than what we're going to do it. Say, we want the move to kill at x%, or to combo into whatever at y%, and say which part of the knockback we want to change about the move (base launch speed, growth rate, or both). Because saying you want to "double" rest's knockback doesn't really mean anything, unless you actually do mean you want the move to kill at 0% against every character in the game.

 

[Kaotical]

I say that, if possible, Jiggs' Rest should do more damage/KB the higher the % the opponent is at. Hmm....keep it at the KB it has now but buff the KB if the opponent is more damaged. Jiggs can't kill at totally ridiculous low % then, but can possibly combo-kill with it in a fashion similar to Melee Jiggs.

Just thought that that could be an option worth lookin into. My vote is still the same.

 

[shanus]

lol give Jiggs Aura Rest rofl. The higher the damage she gets, the more damage / KB the rest gets. When she's hurt, all she needs is a little rest!


lol not happening, but fun idea.

 

[Foxy]

I think it would be rather nifty if it actually healed her like in Poke'mon.

 

[Ulevo]

I really believe Jiggs needs her Utilt and FSmash start up frames to decrease. As it stands now, she needs a reliable kill move, and Fair is the best she has. Even with Rest buffed, it's still not reliable due to the high risk, high reward nature it has, and Fair can only do so much. Utilt because it was one of her primary juggling tools in Melee, and it is almost useless now as it never comes out fast enough to hit...anything. Shields or attacks are up immediately an Utilt is even attempted.

Aside from that, the obvious buff to Rest that everyone has been stating. I personally agree with the idea of removing the flower in favor for higher damage, as well as higher knock back on the Bthrow/Fthrow, and lower knock back on the Uthrow and Dthrow.

Rest should also not have its cool down time lag reduced. The whole point of the move is to provide high risk, high reward. What is the risk in using the move if your opponent can't punish you if you mess it up?

Sing should be buffered in start up speed as well I believe. Thats all I have to really say.

Oh, as for the above post, I think it would be an awesome niche idea for Jiggs to gain a few % every second she is asleep. She only sleeps for like what, three seconds?

 

[Revven]

I agree with Ulevo on Utilt startup being WAY too slow. When I was playing with her against my friend's CF, I could barely pull off a second Utilt to get him higher into the air to keep a juggle going for a nice Uair. It's terribly slow, it would be a nice buff for her. I also wholeheartedly agree with Dthrow/Uthrow KB decrease, I <3'd using Dthrow for combos in Melee and Uthrow was sooo much fun to use, it'd be great to make those throws useful again. It's what turned me off from playing her in vBrawl (that and the general lackthereof hitstun).

Fsmash could stand to have a faster startup, sure. It is a KO move and her only other one excluding Rest (which right now isn't too good). So, I agree with Ulevo on that as well.

 

[kupo15]

Here is the action ID for the rest. Leaf made it more powerful (maybe too powerful) and took away the flower and made it fire

Rest values
250F4B64 0E058115
1C4B9D05 00580000
FFFFFFFF 00000000

For 28% damage, default (75) growth rate, 157 base (original base was 100), 
and fire effect but no flower. Should kill most characters at between 15-30%.

 

[Ulevo]

Here is the action ID for the rest. Leaf made it more powerful (maybe too powerful) and took away the flower and made it fire

Rest values
250F4B64 0E058115
1C4B9D05 00580000
FFFFFFFF 00000000

For 28% damage, default (75) growth rate, 157 base (original base was 100), 
and fire effect but no flower. Should kill most characters at between 15-30%.

I'll check it out later and give my analysis.

 

[shanus]

Me and Yeroc toyed with rest a lot last night:

Kills anywhere between 37-63%, 25 damage, fire effect, 50% growth rate.

250F4B64
0E058115 1F328005
00580000 8BA05276

 

[Revven]

I think Jiggs could use a Utilt endlag speed up, the move is way too slow. Thoughts?

 

[leafgreen386]

Me and Yeroc toyed with rest a lot last night:

Kills anywhere between 37-63%, 25 damage, fire effect, 50% growth rate.

250F4B64
0E058115 1F328005
00580000 8BA05276

So you're running 50 growth rate and 128 base?

Well, then if you tested this ingame and it's doing that, then my calculations were off. And I think I know why, actually. I forgot to include the "c(1+a)" part of the launch speed equation when figuring that out.

I think 63% is too high to be dying from the rest at, though. I assume those percents are from before the hit? I really think that if you get hit by a rest at 40% that you should die. Period.

@utilt speedup: The move would be a lot more useful for comboing with that, yeah. We need to be careful about what buffs we give her now, though, if we're giving her a stronger rest. We don't want everything leading into rest, after all.

 

[Revven]

@utilt speedup: The move would be a lot more useful for comboing with that, yeah. We need to be careful about what buffs we give her now, though, if we're giving her a stronger rest. We don't want everything leading into rest, after all.

The speedup should be minimal but enough so she can do two-three effectively and then do a Bair/Uair easier. The Utilt is just so slow. ;_;

 

[Ulevo]

Even 40% is too high given the nature of the move. There is no single move in the game that places you completely vulnerable for a full 3 seconds, and has a terrible hit box. It should kill at very low percents if it is landed, considering the consequences if you miss.

 

[goodoldganon]

Even 40% is too high given the nature of the move. There is no single move in the game that places you completely vulnerable for a full 3 seconds, and has a terrible hit box. It should kill at very low percents if it is landed, considering the consequences if you miss.

I disagree. If it has reliable set ups then it is squarely in the fault of Jigglypuff for missing the rest. None of us play as the Puff so I can't comment much, but her Rest doesn't need to be KO at anything less then 40%.

 

[Ulevo]

I disagree. If it has reliable set ups then it is squarely in the fault of Jigglypuff for missing the rest. None of us play as the Puff so I can't comment much, but her Rest doesn't need to be KO at anything less then 40%.

And exactly what brings about this number? 40%? Why 40%?

The set ups are reasonably reliable (or could be should we fix Jiggs), however they are not guaranteed. Even in Melee where it killed ridiculously easy it wasn't guaranteed. You rarely ever see Mang0 land Uthrow to Rest because of his opponents DIing too harshly.