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Keeping Brawl in the Spirit of a Competitive Fighter

Clai

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Considering the amount of discussion people have been having about the ruleset, how to change the rules, banning Metaknight, and other issues, I have decided to create this thread because any change that the people in charge would make regarding the moveset would be tailored to one thing: keeping Brawl in the spirit of a competitive fighter.

  • Brawl: A Timed Battle with Stocks or a Stock Battle with a Timer?

By definition, the purpose of a competitive fighter is to knock out your opponent's health while preventing your opponent from doing the same thing. While, to achieve fairness, the defensive purpose of a fighter (preventing your opponnt from knocking you out) must be given the same amount of attention as the offensive purpose (knocking out the opponent), there are several features of our current ruleset (I will also use Melee's ruleset as examples) that encourage the offensive approach more than the defensive playstyle:

1) The fact that we have rules/recommendations about stalling
2) Stage/Item Bans

While I will go into these points later, I will say that they prove that they contribute to keep the intention of this game as knocking out your opponents and depleting their stocks. While a timer is absolutely necessary to keep tournaments at reasonable lengths, methods to abuse the timer in order to win have been discouraged as much as possible while still retaining the principle of "playing to win."

  • Stage Bans: Why do they exist?

The most easily identifiable rule is the choosing of which stages are legal to play on and which stages are banned from play. The people in charge of the rule-set could have just as easily give people a choice to play on Hanenbow or Luigi's Mansion, but with these stages, tournaments would envelop into chaos and people would quit in masses. No matter how obvious these bans may seem, though, let's delve into the reasoning of why these stages are banned in the first place.

Walk-off Stages
These type of stages have the most concrete reason as to why they are banned: they create overcentralization. King Dedede, along possibly other characters, can easily chaingrab opposing characters to the blast zones and then promptly dispatch of them. This creates a huge problem as it catastrophically reduces the amount of viable options a player has to choose from. Having permanent blast zones so close to the stage has an incredibly disdainful impact because it allows people to gain KO's far beyond what their character is normally capable of.

Stages with Hazards
These stages don't cause any overcentralization, but they bring up another problem: Outside forces start having a greater impact on the battle than the ability of the characters. Any hazard that can kill a combatant far earlier than the opposing combatant could have is a serious issue, as the purpose of a fighting game is to use the character's abilities to prevail over the opponent. Items are banned for the same reason, as they become a dominating force that circumvents the abilities of the characters in battle.

Huge Stages
Here we come to the most intriguing situation: stages that are simply way too big to function. You can say that these stages cause overcentralization, but that isn't true: numerous characters are capable of performing a hit-and-run strategy, using the stage's enormous size to benefit them- Sonic, Fox, heck even Captain Falcon could be viable if the only thing he was asked to do was run away a lot. These stages don't introduce dominant outside forces because everything that contributed to these stages' banning involves nothing more than the ability of the characters to use the stage to their benefit. With that being said, I believe that the reason that huge stages are banned is because they promote camping for the sole purpose of running out the clock, and that is a discouraged outcome by those establishing the rules.

  • Stalling
Before I begin this one, here are the rules in both [non N-64] Smash games dealing with stalling:

Melee:Some kind of stalling prevention is highly recommended. Since a definition of stalling is too potentially ambiguous here, all instances of stalling are determined by the Tournament Host.
Brawl:Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling. Stalling is banned.

While the Melee rule-makers didn't want to get too hairy with the definition of stalling, the Brawl rule-set provides a good explanation, and the Melee rule-set would likely agree. What catches my eye about this rule is that offensive strategies (at least those that don't result in glitches/freezes), that make the game unplayable don't result in problems. Get caught in Ice Climber's chain grab? Well you can't do anything about it. Nope. Zilch. Nada. You lost a stock and no amount of playability will change that. This isn't just true for Brawl. Infinite comboes, as long as they don't promote overcentralization, are for the most part allowed and if an opposing player can pull them off, tough luck for you.

*NOTE: The Official Ruleset for Competitive Brawl says nothing about Dedede's infinite chaingrab. Just because regions ban them does not mean that it is a universally banned tactic*

No, the part about this rule that gets to me is the "delibrately avoiding any and all conflict" phrase. After all, Metaknight's Infinite Dimensional Cape Glitch was banned for this very purpose- a MK player can use this tactic and become invincible and invisible, avoiding any form of contact until the clock runs out (Of course Metaknight had to have had this- we wouldn't be talking about 'creating rules to keep MK in the game' if Marth was the only character with this technique... sorry I digress). If an offensive strategy that makes the game unplayable isn't banned, why is a defensive strategy that accomplishes the same purpose get the banhammer? Both strategies are going to result in a certain amount of centralization, and both strategies follow the 'play to win' principle by the letter. As for the last sentence, the statement about infinite chain grabs being forced to end at 300%, you aren't going to be more dead at 999% than at 300%, so this statement also attempts to discourage using the tactic to run out the timer.

All of this brings me to my conclusion as to why stalling is banned in the Brawl rule-set: Stalling (delibrately avoiding any and all contact) detracts from the purpose of Brawl as a competitive fighter- to win by knocking out the opponent.

*NOTE: While the following topics have been discussed and set into use by Tournament Directors, there is no official policy established in the Official Brawl ruleset concerning these issues*

  • Ledge-grab Policies and Planking
One of the more fierce arguments about Metaknight is his ability to counter most of the cast by "planking." Planking is generally defined as excessive camping primarily catered to using the ledge, often until the timer runs out. Some tournament directors want to attempt to alleviate the planking problem with arbitrary rulesets or even ban planking together. This behavior proves my point that playing for the purpose of running out the timer above all else goes against the spirit of Brawl as a competitive fighter, since nobody will ever complain about an equal demonstration of dominance that was on the offensive side instead of the defensive side.

Think about the specifics of grabbing the ledge. You grab the ledge, you become invulnerable for a period of time, and then become vulnerable again. Characters that are good at planking are likely to be very effective in reducing the amount of time that they are vulnerable on or near the ledge and aim to spend as much time being invulnerable as possible. However, while your character is on a ledge, he/she/it is in a dangerous position, as the character has greatly reduced mobility and has only a few options to use when he/she/it is hanging. So what makes keeping to the ledge so enticing? It's the invunerability frames, of course. Even if you can't do anything back to the opponent, you have the pleasure of knowing that the opponent can't touch you while you're holding on for those set amount of frames. Here, of course, is where the trouble begins.

Say a character has X frames of invulnerability on the ledge. That means that for Y amount of times the character grabs the ledge, that character is completely invulnerable for XY amount of frames. The total amount of time spent being invulnerable may not be much, but when you consider that some characters have great methods that keep their opponents away from the ledge, that time can really add up. In addition, while the character is invulnerable, he/she/it is completely incacpable of mounting an offense, or do anything else for that matter, so abusing these invulnerability frames provides no benefit outside of running out the clock. While I repeat that it's likely that a character will spend no more than a handful of seconds being invulnerable while on the ledge, tournament directors are still trying to place limits on how many edgegrabs a player can have. Since these limits are done to hinder the onset of planking, the TO's are likely carrying them out because they find this tactic to be too similar to stalling.

  • Gliding under the staaaaaage......
Now we come to the reason people really despise Metaknight running out the timer, even though Pit can probably do this even better than Metaknight and is overall a far gayer character. Plenty of matches between elite-level players ended up becoming a time-out simply because Metaknight (nobody uses Pit and lol at stalling Charizard) glided under the stage so many times and the other player couldn't do a thing about it. So let's ask, what's so great about this ability? When a character glides below the stage, he is essentially impervious to damage. No attack, item, technique can reach below the stage where a glider happens to be, and even if there was such a thing, the glider can just dip below the attack and then glide back up to the ledge. It clearly has no offensive benefits, as nobody is going to be under the stage, and its defensive benefits are shady at best (what, MK's 5 jumps, transcendant-priority aerials and 4 recovery moves not good enough for him to keep to one ledge?), the only plausible reason to do this technique is no more than running out the timer. I feel that gliding under the stage perfectly fits the description of 'delibrately avoiding any and all conflict in order to make the game unplayable and should be banned for stalling!

In conclusion, I have analyzed Brawl's rule-set in accordance of maintaining its image as a competitive fighter, provided reasons as to why the ruleset includes issues such as stage bans and stalling, and gave my own opinions to the problems that we face regarding the ruleset today. If we're going to make changes to the rules, the reasoning for doing so has to be consistent with the reasoning behind the rules we already have in place.
 

Flayl

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Spammer vs Vidjo does not have planking, it has laser-and-run camping.

Which might I add got many stages banned.

Pit being "gayer" than MK is subjective. Also there's the whole "if you hit him out his UpB he's dead" thing, whereas MK can still make it back.

Note that I fully agree that gliding under the stage except when recovering (meaning after you grab the ledge once) should be considered stalling.
 

Clai

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Spammer vs Vidjo does not have planking, it has laser-and-run camping.
I've heard the word planking be applied to so many matches that I don't really understand what it means anymore. How do you define planking?

Pit being "gayer" than MK is subjective. Also there's the whole "if you hit him out his UpB he's dead" thing, whereas MK can still make it back.
Pit's glide is faster than Metaknight's, so when talking about gliding under the stage and nothing else, Pit can do it better since there's less time for the opponent to get to the other ledge and become a threat.

Also, I have an unfathomable bias against Pit. I can't include him in my thread without mentioning how much I hate this character.
 

Flayl

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Planking is ledge-camping with MK, basically. The closest thing Melee has is Shiek doing ledge-drop UpBs.
 

Clai

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Planking is ledge-camping with MK, basically. The closest thing Melee has is Shiek doing ledge-drop UpBs.
Wasn't the most prominent example of planking at APEX when Plank ran the timer on DaPuffster? Plank barely abused the ledge at all in that match. I'm also pretty sure that matches that had time ran out that didn't involve Metaknight were also called planking...

So if what you're saying is true, then people are actually trying to ban ledgecamping only if MK does it? If that's the case, I'm going to be really ticked off.
 
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No thats not planking that's air camping.
Planking is excessive ledgecamping, plain and simple. The term was developed at AXIS, where plank did it to SK92's falco.
 

Leafplayer452

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I personally like your thoughts on the subject, but lets be real, nothing or little will be done with the current problems the rulesets have
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Pit is an exception. Until a good player proves a point w/ Pit's ledgecamping/amazing planking, then you cannot "theory-craft" as there is no proof.
 
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Players have proven it, just not in America. Believe it or not, IQ levels and skill level doesn't magically drop off when you cross the border.
 

Zankoku

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I find it funny that though you point out that Dedede's chaingrab is not mentioned in the official ruleset, you do not mention that ledge-camping/stage-gliding tactics are not, either, yet address them as though they are part of the rules.

Also, the strictest form of stalling ends games faster than any offensive strategy in existence, since, once you've gained a percent lead, the game is effectively over.
 

Clai

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I find it funny that though you point out that Dedede's chaingrab is not mentioned in the official ruleset, you do not mention that ledge-camping/stage-gliding tactics are not, either, yet address them as though they are part of the rules.

Also, the strictest form of stalling ends games faster than any offensive strategy in existence, since, once you've gained a percent lead, the game is effectively over.
You're right. I need to be fair when concerning both Dedede's infinite and the policies on ledge-grabbing/scrooging. I put a note right before these points.

As for your last sentence... what? No matter how strict the stalling is, it can't end the game faster than an offensive strategy because in order for the stalling to work, it has to drag out for the entire 8 minutes.

What are you implying? Just say: ", Captain Falcon".
I am implying that, in this metagame, Captain Falcon is woefully unviable. Sonic and Fox are unviable too, but Falcon's pretty much hopeless.
 

RATED

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Brawl is not a fighing game ... is a party game trying to be fighting game where u can just run the timer out planking or anything like that or pick any stage + character combination against certain character and just have really high chances to win examples :

Rainbowcruise + DDD vs Snake = imposible most of the time if played correctly. and normally the MU is 55:45 DDD advantage.
 

Zankoku

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As for your last sentence... what? No matter how strict the stalling is, it can't end the game faster than an offensive strategy because in order for the stalling to work, it has to drag out for the entire 8 minutes.
Your only possible victory condition just got removed from the game, and when the time runs out you will lose. Although it'll take 8 minutes for the game to end, you can't deny that the staller's already won.
 

zeldspazz

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Your only possible victory condition just got removed from the game, and when the time runs out you will lose. Although it'll take 8 minutes for the game to end, you can't deny that the staller's already won.
I think youre talking about how fast the victor of the match is decided. You already know who the winner is before the match ends, even if it takes 8 min is what youre saying correct?

What Clai is talking about I believe is the actual time for the match to end, as opposed to who wins.

I think?
 

Zankoku

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Pretty much. After that first point of damage and removal from any further interaction, the timer pretty much just becomes a technicality of saying "it's not over yet!"

...Which doesn't do a whole lot of good when you can't do anything to change your fate in the first place.
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Crow!

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Watching that video of a "normal" fighting game just reminded me how much better Smash games are. WHY, oh WHY are there always invisible walls at the arbitrarily selected edges of the rectangular, flat, featureless stages?

Also, LOL at the infinite huge bounce thing.
 

shadyf0o

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This is just a summary of current problems. No solutions are outlined here. Regardless, I agree that the things you have mentioned are indeed Brawls biggest problems. I've always preached about Smash competitive spirit. Glad to see someone else with their head on straight.

Brawl's rules, and the problems with Brawls rules are the product of the Smash "elite's" selfish back-room decisions. These "elite" rule-makers are the one's winning at Brawl, thus they have put rules in place that ensure their victory. Brawl's "policy-makers", if you will, are concerned with winning money, not with Brawl's wellbeing as a fighter.

Most high level smashers have admitted that they consider Brawl to be a bad game. This is where the problem stems from: they don't care about Brawl; they care about money. Until Brawl's own community takes it's game seriously, no one will. Brawl has the potential to be great, but not if things don't change around here.

Maybe our problems truly stem from deep seeded discontent with the game changes made in the transition from Melee to Brawl. I cannot deny that I myself was disappointed with Brawl when it came out. But, Brawl's release was two years ago now. What's done is done. Brawl is not Melee, and Melee is not Brawl. It's time we evolve and step into an entirely new meta-game, for an entirely different game; one that revolves around fighting your opponent, not avoiding him at all costs. If Melee never existed and Brawl's meta-game was approached the proper way, with the same time Melee's meta-game was given to develop, I think we would be playing a much different game today. We need to liberate Brawl from Melee's shadow and embrace this truly great fighter for what it is


 

KoRoBeNiKi

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This is just a summary of current problems. No solutions are outlined here. Regardless, I agree that the things you have mentioned are indeed Brawls biggest problems. I've always preached about Smash competitive spirit. Glad to see someone else with their head on straight.

Brawl's rules, and the problems with Brawls rules are the product of the Smash "elite's" selfish back-room decisions. These "elite" rule-makers are the one's winning at Brawl, thus they have put rules in place that ensure their victory. Brawl's "policy-makers", if you will, are concerned with winning money, not with Brawl's wellbeing as a fighter.

Most high level smashers have admitted that they consider Brawl to be a bad game. This is where the problem stems from: they don't care about Brawl; they care about money. Until Brawl's own community takes it's game seriously, no one will. Brawl has the potential to be great, but not if things don't change around here.

Maybe our problems truly stem from deep seeded discontent with the game changes made in the transition from Melee to Brawl. I cannot deny that I myself was disappointed with Brawl when it came out. But, Brawl's release was over a year ago now. What's done is done. Brawl is not Melee, and Melee is not Brawl. It's time we evolve and step into an entirely new meta-game, for an entirely different game; one that revolves around fighting your opponent, not avoiding him at all costs. If Melee never existed and Brawl's meta-game was approached the proper way, with the same time Melee's meta-game was given to develop, I think we would be playing a much different game today. We need to liberate Brawl from Melee's shadow and embrace this truly great fighter for what it is
Brawl's rules, and the problems with Brawls rules are the product of the Smash "elite's" selfish back-room decisions. These "elite" rule-makers are the one's winning at Brawl, thus they have put rules in place that ensure their victory. Brawl's "policy-makers", if you will, are concerned with winning money, not with Brawl's wellbeing as a fighter.

Brawl problems are from the players, the rules are created to prevent exploits. They keep in the stages that are considered good and take out the stages that are considered bad.

one that revolves around fighting your opponent, not avoiding him at all costs.

People play to win. This is how to win.
 

Smasher89

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If planking/MK winning on time is so hard to counter, maybe a rule that restrict that useage (not the grablimit, since it doesnt seem to work) is needed.
Maybe just something like ensuring he can't win if there is a timeout (since he is a very good offensive char, it should only give him problems against maybe Falco?)
Example:

Metaknight's stalling rule: Metaknight is excluded in the time rule and can't win on a timeout.
If MK is in a lead and there´s a timeout in the match it´s either a draw or the match is replayed with both players at one stock 3-4min (timeout again and MK looses), if the opponent is in a lead, he/she wins that game.



That way MK is kinda forced to approach when the time goes out, and just because it´s MK, who obviously is the best char in the game, he won´t have too much trouble winning games either way.

Another thing, maybe extending the timelimit to 10 min like they have in japan helps this rule to not be abused in a way it would "counter" MK...
 

zeldspazz

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Brawl's rules, and the problems with Brawls rules are the product of the Smash "elite's" selfish back-room decisions. These "elite" rule-makers are the one's winning at Brawl, thus they have put rules in place that ensure their victory. Brawl's "policy-makers", if you will, are concerned with winning money, not with Brawl's wellbeing as a fighter.
SBR decisions arent needed to be followed x.x

Its the TOs of the tournaments that make decisions. The SBR ruleset is just a guideline. Notice how some stuff like DDD infinite and ledge grab rules vary from region to region?
 

shadyf0o

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Brawl's rules, and the problems with Brawls rules are the product of the Smash "elite's" selfish back-room decisions. These "elite" rule-makers are the one's winning at Brawl, thus they have put rules in place that ensure their victory. Brawl's "policy-makers", if you will, are concerned with winning money, not with Brawl's wellbeing as a fighter.

Brawl problems are from the players, the rules are created to prevent exploits. They keep in the stages that are considered good and take out the stages that are considered bad.

one that revolves around fighting your opponent, not avoiding him at all costs.

People play to win. This is how to win.
I don't have any problem with banning certain stages.
 

shadyf0o

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SBR decisions arent needed to be followed x.x

Its the TOs of the tournaments that make decisions. The SBR ruleset is just a guideline. Notice how some stuff like DDD infinite and ledge grab rules vary from region to region?
Good point I suppose.
 

GunmasterLombardi

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This is just a summary of current problems. No solutions are outlined here. Regardless, I agree that the things you have mentioned are indeed Brawls biggest problems. I've always preached about Smash competitive spirit. Glad to see someone else with their head on straight.

Brawl's rules, and the problems with Brawls rules are the product of the Smash "elite's" selfish back-room decisions. These "elite" rule-makers are the one's winning at Brawl, thus they have put rules in place that ensure their victory. Brawl's "policy-makers", if you will, are concerned with winning money, not with Brawl's wellbeing as a fighter.

Most high level smashers have admitted that they consider Brawl to be a bad game. This is where the problem stems from: they don't care about Brawl; they care about money. Until Brawl's own community takes it's game seriously, no one will. Brawl has the potential to be great, but not if things don't change around here.

Maybe our problems truly stem from deep seeded discontent with the game changes made in the transition from Melee to Brawl. I cannot deny that I myself was disappointed with Brawl when it came out. But, Brawl's release was two years ago now. What's done is done. Brawl is not Melee, and Melee is not Brawl. It's time we evolve and step into an entirely new meta-game, for an entirely different game; one that revolves around fighting your opponent, not avoiding him at all costs. If Melee never existed and Brawl's meta-game was approached the proper way, with the same time Melee's meta-game was given to develop, I think we would be playing a much different game today. We need to liberate Brawl from Melee's shadow and embrace this truly great fighter for what it is


*teardrop*
 

Clai

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Example:

Metaknight's stalling rule: Metaknight is excluded in the time rule and can't win on a timeout.
If MK is in a lead and there´s a timeout in the match it´s either a draw or the match is replayed with both players at one stock 3-4min (timeout again and MK looses), if the opponent is in a lead, he/she wins that game.
No. No. No. No. No.

We cannot tailor-fit the rules for a particular character. If we do that, we might as well ban the character.

What we do have to do is to ensure that every character/strategy follows the rules given and if any move/tactic is in direct violation of these rules, then that tactic needs to be banned (I'm talking about stuff like IDC here).

Planking's a difficult issue because it's hard to tell whether it's just a simply effective defensive strategy or an exploit that falls against the rules.
 

Zankoku

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Watching that video of a "normal" fighting game just reminded me how much better Smash games are. WHY, oh WHY are there always invisible walls at the arbitrarily selected edges of the rectangular, flat, featureless stages?
In most games, the "invisible walls" are functionally identical to the ledges in most stages of Smash. They're used for pressure, situational setups, and the like. People sometimes camp them (moreso in Smash).

Hokuto no Ken is just a really bad example because everyone either has a 0-death or an infinite, lol.
 

Jski

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Why not remove time limes and have draw on ppl who just simply take too long for the round? Say 20 mins if they go over that then its a draw or less as needed. There problems to this but it will end planking and trying to run out time. Look at it this way players where given something like more rounds to play but less time to play them in but this is being abused so the right must be changed or simply taken away.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Exactly, which is why the name of this thread should not be "keeping Brawl in the competitive spirit," as it is not, and never was, a competitive game in the first place.
 

Zankoku

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It was placed in the spirit of a competitive fighter from the moment we had our first tournaments of it and up until now. For someone who keeps telling us to "stay in the present" you're being awfully concerned about the origins.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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That was in the MK discussion, I don't feel it really applies here. No matter whether or not the SWF community plays Smash competitively, the game itself was never meant to be played this way.
 

RDK

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Exactly, which is why the name of this thread should not be "keeping Brawl in the competitive spirit," as it is not, and never was, a competitive game in the first place.
I think when he says "keeping it in the competitive spirit" he's talking about not changing the way we play the game ever since we made it competitive.

This is especially relevant with all this MK ban nonsense going around.

Also, Vrael, how Sakurai intended the game to be played has not bearing on how we play it. To us, it's a competitive game.

Duck duck goose could be made into a competitive game; it doesn't matter if it didn't start out that way.
 

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I think when he says "keeping it in the competitive spirit" he's talking about not changing the way we play the game ever since we made it competitive.

This is especially relevant with all this MK ban nonsense going around.


Fair enough.

Also, Vrael, how Sakurai intended the game to be played has not bearing on how we play it. To us, it's a competitive game.
To the minority, yes. It's still a casual game. Maybe some people take it to the competitive level, but then it's only a competitive game to those few people.

Duck duck goose could be made into a competitive game; it doesn't matter if it didn't start out that way.
True.
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
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Messages
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No. No. No. No. No.

We cannot tailor-fit the rules for a particular character. If we do that, we might as well ban the character.

What we do have to do is to ensure that every character/strategy follows the rules given and if any move/tactic is in direct violation of these rules, then that tactic needs to be banned (I'm talking about stuff like IDC here).

Planking's a difficult issue because it's hard to tell whether it's just a simply effective defensive strategy or an exploit that falls against the rules.
From the perspective I´ve with planking (who have yet to be planked out and might be wrong in "following" the "need" of it to be banned) planking seems to be playing Metaknight , get a % lead, never approach +avoid conflict as much as possible for the rest of the match to win by time.
I read(needs to see it , so if anyone has the matches...)
that M2K did that against like 7 players or something at pound4, which might mean that it needs to have a restriction.
That´s something the ledgegrab rule fails to restrict.

If I were positive to banning the character, the infinite cape would be my main argument, but it got restricted which seems to kinda have worked...
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
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It was placed in the spirit of a competitive fighter from the moment we had our first tournaments of it and up until now. For someone who keeps telling us to "stay in the present" you're being awfully concerned about the origins.
 

Mr.E

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
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  • Stage Bans: Why do they exist?

The most easily identifiable rule is the choosing of which stages are legal to play on and which stages are banned from play. The people in charge of the rule-set could have just as easily give people a choice to play on Hanenbow or Luigi's Mansion, but with these stages, tournaments would envelop into chaos and people would quit in masses. No matter how obvious these bans may seem, though, let's delve into the reasoning of why these stages are banned in the first place.
Did you intentionally choose to mention such questionable stages? Luigi's Mansion isn't even banned under the SBR rules and the few regional pockets which still ever allow it certainly don't have their tournaments "envelop into chaos" and cause "people [to] quit in masses." Hanenbow itself was barely deemed banworthy and some still entertain the idea of allowing it in doubles.

"Huge stages" or, more precisely, "stages with loops" are largely banned not simply because timer-based victories are discouraged but because said timer-based victories are impossible to defeat. Something like MK with a lead planking Falco (on a standard stage) might be highly advantaged toward MK, yet Falco can beat it with proper reads and precision execution. On the flip side, if Falco gets the lead on a stage like Temple... Falco wins, period. There's nothing MK can do to ever catch Falco, Falco is too quick and terrain loops allow him to avoid being pinned against a ledge or stage boundaries. Such degenerate gameplay essentially bars all but a select few characters from viability.
 
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