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KID's Analysis: NUBMER 3! KC24

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
I like to think I know alot about this game and what goes into playing it at a high level. Some may disagree.

I also would like you people to get better at this game. Some may disagree with that too.

But because I want to help people. Ive decided to do a full second by second analysis on a match of SuperGirlKels from a tournament last weekend. I thought this could be helpful to some of you so Im posting it here.

I may do this again, and I may do it on an ongoing basis, but that Im not sure yet.

Btw, Im copy pasting this straight from Facebook.



The Match in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_tMdRew8Yk
[Collapse="SuperGirlKels"]
FIRST AND FOREMOST. Kelsy, this is 2012, We dont catch items with airdodge anymore. People stopped doing that 2-3 years ago. You can either catch them with Z (or w/e button you use to grab) you can aerial, or you can Instant Throw in mid air. If you didnt know, this is performed with basically the same motion as a glide toss, except your in the air. Stop catching things with airdodge, you will never beat a snake or diddy EVER as long as you keep doing that.

Now on to the match
:09. up throw to up tilt is stupid, do something else. because of it, you dealt 12% and ate 13%. damage trades are NEVER good against snake. up throw to up air is better, and sets up for more follow ups. Or you can even do the KID combo. which is just up throw, bait an airdodge, up throw again x3
(yes I WILL plug myself. deal with it #shades)
:15. Maximise damage. you hit with the side b hop and missed the follow up. personally, I do nair after side b hop every time. does good damage and keeps other moves fresh, while setting up relatively well for follow ups.
:23 catching items with airdodge. Got punished... instant toss there would have been perfect
:35 another side b hop into missed follow up.
:42. land camp snakes with down smash, they cant do anything about it. that was a golden oppurtunity to put him back off stage and gimp/rack more damage.

keep in mind, this is when you were playing well, I havent even gotten to the bad parts yet.

:46. this is why its bad to be predictable with spindash or do it from too far away, better players will do this consistently.
:50. Its not all bad, this was a very good reaction to the mortar slide
:53 IMPORTANT
That kill was beautiful and almost brought a tear to my eye. HOWEVER, it will come back to haunt you later.

:58 smart move to stay off stage and away from snake while hes invincible.
1:02. Momentum cancel with fast fall forward air, down air doesnt actually do anything for you
1:10, good, make the snake come to you because you have the stock lead. just once again airdodges are not a good deterrent for nades. stop it.
1:19. he dairs into the tree and you jump away from him? that could have been Aerial spincharge to footstool into big damage and you let it slip away.
1:20-1:50. this is a beautiful string to take him from 12 to 120 only taking 20 damage yourself, thats how you have to fight snake, big damage in large bursts...
buttttttttt

1:52. heres where things start to go down hill. at this point he is down a full stock, about to be put into a 3 stock to one situation... but hes not approaching. he has now acknowledged how awkward you are at dealing with grenades. but maybe hes just stupid and will wise up soon. OR...
1:58. THIS. This is the turning point of the match...
He kills you... with back throw. at 120.
wtf?
throws are the only moves of snakes that CANT kill you below 150 and you die to back throw? what were you trying to DI? It doesnt even make sense.
2:05. you quickly get back in and ALMOST kill him. But its ok, its snake. hes easy to hit off stage.
2:07. ugh... you got anxious and went up too soon, now he pretty much has a free pass to get down. But you can still pressure him right?
2:09. UGH... you get rope-a-doped by the b reversal. its ok, it happens to all of us sometimes. just remember, he cant airdodge or aerial after he pulls a nade so its a free hit for you if you can get to him. But if he lands he has no lag and can roll or spotdodge instantly.
2:12. bleh. you get scared and walk into 23% for no reason.
2:20. Now the snake is getting smarter and playing the snake game. Forcing you to deal with grenades (which we all know youre bad at by now) and slowly walking at you, cutting off your space and options. Luckily you get out of this exchange unscathed.
2:25. PROBLEM
Look at the score right now, youre still winning by 100%. but hes still just camping out in the middle of the stage,while you jump around and goof off. Hes just waiting for you to mess up so he can react and punish accordingly. in the first half of the match, he was running at you and approaching and doing dumb things, and you reacted, which is why you got the big lead in the first place. but even though youre winning, mentally, the tables have turned, and he knows 'Im snake, i can just sit here, and eventually, she has to come to me, and thats when ill get her'

2:51. second hit of f tilt on shield is always punishable by dash attack out of shield. and at that range, you could have just up aired out of shield.
2:59. once again, chasing snake into the sky is good, but you were too hasty, which resulted in you not actually putting any pressure on the snake at all.
3:01 THERE
Remember when I said youre kill on the first stock would come back to bite you? Now you out here feeling yourself like that mess is going to work again. that set up works MAYBE once per set. dont be going for goofy stuff like that multiple times per game.
3:05 back to camping for him, because he knows its working now.
3:10. again, being too hasty on the spring chasing.
if youre going to spring that early, dair back down and have something waiting for him on the ground (like a down smash)
3:14. spring trap again. no bueno.
at this point, I know youre annoyed, but the fact of the matter is, the objective of the game is NOT to kill the opponent 3 times. The objective of the game is to WIN. and you dont have to kill him to win. the option to time him out (or force him to approach you) is still there. just wait, and stop getting hit by nades, and he will come to you. if he wants to camp you, camp him back.
3:16. you messed up a free spindash to back air kill here. if youhad hit that you probably would have calmed down and regained composure and won the match.
after that he goes back to waiting for you
3:46. you get him off stage, you pick the safe option and wait for him on the ground and you react properly to the b reverse, and then you... MISS the punish... sigh. thats what i mean when i said you have to hit snake before he hits the ground because he can roll or spotdodge laglessly after he pulls a nade. what you SHOULD have done, was dash attack, it would have hit him before he landed, and it would have detonated the grenade, which would have done about 12% to you, and kill him since hes at 190 at the time. so I take back what I said before. There is ONE situation where you can trade with snake, and that was it.
right after that, you have to be less readable with your techs, that was the second time he got a free 20% on you because he called your roll after the down throw.
3:58. if you had thrown that nade up in stead of forward it probably would have killed him.
so at this point we've fkd up about 4 oppurtunities to take snakes second stock.
and then at 4:02, he mashes out an up tilt for no reason and you die because you DId it horribly and tried to momentum cancel with dair again.
at this point, the match could have been Kelsy at 120% on her first stock to snakes 0% on his last stock. But because you arent taking full advantage of the opputunities youve been given, now its Kelsy on her last stock at 0% to snakes 200% on second stock, which means you ARENT in the lead any more, which means he CAN camp you out, and you DO have to approach him. This is bad. I sense you can feel this and you start to unravel at this point.

4:10 Once again you quickly rebound and easily get the kill youve been struggling for for the last 2 full minutes. I would have found a way to get rid of that land mine he put down while hes dead btw, that might come back to you later.
4:11. back to business as usual for the snake, middle of stage, waiting to react.

4:45. thats the 6th time in a row youve rolled backwards out of a down throw. If that was me playing snake, I would have gone for the hard read and had a forward smash waiting for you right there, and that would have ended the game. But because the guy has you where he wants you, hes fine with taking his 20% f tilt on reaction to your roll, even though he already knows where youre going

4:50. you finally do something thats not back roll, but he has a nade there so he covered that option anyway along with the pivot grab to catch the back roll. be more aware.
4:59. you have EASILY predictable and punishable ledge habits, he stuck out a hit box, and you walked into it. and he takes a game that at the beginning looked like there was no way you would lose.

All things considered, he basically gave his first stock and a half to you by running at you constantly. and than you barely touched him after that because he decided to camp your balls off and you couldnt adapt.
What you should take from this.
if you were better at dealing with grenades, he wouldnt have been able to camp you.
you only get so many chances to get kills with sonic, you have to make them count. that second stock, you had more chances to get a kill than I get in a SET with the people I play against, but you dropped the ball.
Break your bad habits, back roll tech and ledge options ruined your day completely.
Use more misdirection stuff to get people to commit to moves more so you can punish them. dont try to force an opening. youre not good enough to do that yet. just let them come to you and take what the opponent gives you.
Land camp snake and other characters with bad air games with down smash.
Refine you spring chasing game
I focused a lot on the holes and problems in this match, but fact is, you are a good player. you just need to refine your skills, your pressure game was good and your follow ups were solid. you just need to be less gimmicky when it comes to guaranteed damage and more gimmicky when it comes to getting that last hit.
Also, learn to keep composure in high pressure situations.

Lastly, Im making a thread and putting this on SWF[/COLLAPSE]
Conclusion: Kels has a good sonic that makes smart decisions but is very rough and is highly unrefined and unpolished. Practice responses to common situations, and be more aware of the opponent actions as well as your own habits.


ANALYSIS #2

Now, to be fair, I dont really like Tesh as a person, on the boards at least. But I'm a nice guy, so Ill help anybody out. And even if he doesnt care to see my analysis, maybe somebody else can glean something from it and progress as a player. That being said, I will not take shots at him or anybody else i do this for unnecessarily, I will criticize all matches fairly.

That being said,
The match in question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbQVFaj5j4I&list=UU41J4HZrKL22qcerM3DC7nQ&index=3&feature=plcp
Game 2 only.
starting at 4:49
[collapse=" TESH."]
4:54. this is the basic Peach shield trap that everyone should learn how to deal with effectively, simply rolling away will allow the peach to observe and react to you for an easy punish. All peachs can and will do this, it is essential to her game. I might have up bd or jumped in that situation.

5:01. Gotta work on timing your punishes for people ADing into the ground.

5:04. blocking peachs dash attack like that give you the option to get a free easy punish f tilt, or go for nonguaranteed big damage. cant blame you for going for the big damage option.
5:05. powershielded f tilt, you should have grabbed or dash attacked for that. going for another big damage punish got you jab out of spindash

5:06. Major problem for all sonics. As soon as we get hit, we always want to spindash back in there. We have to be more aware, because spindash has no priority and gets beaten easily. This is a recurring issue. nice SDI to up tilt though.

5:09. Apparently, ASC does a number on peachs shield. We have to learn to trick her into shielding against us more, because she can easily nair us out of that if she can react.

5:10-5:15. Gotta be a little more precise with your sharking when you have people on a platform.

5:16. Spindashing when peach can react to it is always bad because all of her aerials stuff it.

5:20. Running under peach to reset situation and spacing, smart move. Will need to be done a lot in this matchup.

5:25. All of us do the falling bair when they di out of our aerials in that situation. Its a good move, but we have to make sure we stay aware because that can back fire at times.

5:28. Got a little hasty again and walked into a dair.

5:33. Very smart timing of spindash. You didnt try to punish lag that she doesnt have. You waited and instead, punished the option that she used after she landed (dash away) and you milked it for 30%. Also, good spacing on the up airs to trade and beat her down airs.

5:40. Basic peach dair trap again. She can pretty much react to anything we do in this situation. So special consideration needs to be put into not getting in this situation to begin with.

5:44. Good bair spacing, if you had f smashed right there, she might have walked into it.

5:45. Tech skill error, I assume. Meant to be an up air OOS? Gotta tighten that up bro.

5:48. It worked that time, but dont make a habit of spinning right into somebody in that situation. Not saying you do. Just precautionary advice.

5:50-5:55. Good bair spacing. You have been a little more aggresive on punishing those airdodges though. Hers IS the worst in the game.

5:55-6:25. Very good display of spacing and patience. Aside from that one fair. This was good and because of choosing your moves intelligently, you were able to secure a kill on Peach at 128%

6:08. Good punish, she ate 20% because she tried to pull a turnip, thats what we need to do against this character.

6:10. Pushing a little too hard again, got you daired.

6:12. See 5:48.

6:28. Spring to get rid of invincibility. Thumbs up.

6:30-6:48. Lots of bad decisions here. Got too aggresive trying to build a lead and got outprioritised. Spindashed right into peach from offstage. and walked into another Dair trap. But you got out of that one unscathed, luckily.

6:50. See: 5:09. Peachs shield is apparently bad against ASC, either that or ill keeps dropping shield too soon. Either way, thats a quick and easy 25%

6:57. Preemptive bair, beat her option and would have kept you safe if it didnt hit. I approve.

7:00. two easy spindash punishes. except on the second one, she DIs the spindash hit and kills you for it. I predict in the future people DIing out of our spindash stuff is going to be a bigger and bigger problem for us to overcome.

7:15. This is why challenging peach consistently is bad. You used a move that beats peachs moves, in f smash, but because you timed it poorly. You ate 30% and lost a lot of the lead you had. But you did good to minimize the damage by springing away.

7:17. More strong play and showing of patience and choosing encounters wisely. Though there was another tech skill error in the form of a random up smash. ASC is starting to look like a really good option against Peach. But Ill just might not know that hes supposed to nair it.

7:44. Good spotdodge punish. Bad throw follow up. Stay under peach and space up airs to force her to airdodge into more grabs. Thats the Espy and KID way.

7:49. Dair on shield again and she guesses right again. This leads to ill juggling you for about 40%. Gotta be more precise with your defensive options. It may seem scrubby, but if they dont know how to punish your spring escapes, then keep doing it, no reason to eat damage unnecessarily.

7:57. SPACE BEARS!

8:05. Testing your luck with that spindash into people from offstage thing. Although that time it looked like you timed it to punish her aerial.

8:08. That fall through bair, does that hit people on the platform, if it doesnt, I dont really know why you did that.

8:10. Caught him swinging at air, take your free damage.

8:15. Should have naired maybe, because now youre scaling your bair and its not killing at percents that it should be.

8:17. Down smash here would have crushed his soul.

8:20. Good attempt on the RBF (Run Behind F smash) only reason he dodged it is because hes probably used to playing you, but that will definitely work on people that arent.

8:25. Now, you spindashing into people from offstage is a habit, and certain players will take advantage of this. Watch yourself in the future. If that was me, i would at this point acknowledged this and had my strongest punish ready for the next time you do this.

8:28. I did not even know you could grab Peach between the hits of her dash attack like that. Only on power shield?

8:30. I would have waited and punished the spotdodge if i knew my reaction to the stand up was late.

8:34. I consider this string of spindash from offstage into Peach, into SDId fair into back air kill EXTREMELY lucky and fortunate on your part.

8:37. Followed the kill with top plat form spring. Now she has to double jump over it, and with her fall speed her I frames will be gone by the time she gets to the ground anyway.

8:43-8:53. Very smart evasion tactics lead into a spindash, and a very nice double bair airdodge punish. 35%. Very good way to start the last stock.

8:58. See what I mean, you got hit, tried to immediately spindash back in there and almost lost the stock from it. But your DI was on point so kudos for that.

9:03. Dair trap again. You have to get better at acknowledging and avoiding no-win situations like those. It lead to you dying.

9:15. Again, making ASC look very good, and tight spacing on the bair.

9:28. ASC on Peachs shield is basically turning into dair on our shield for her. You get another well spaced bair for it.

9:31. Good timing on the roll punish again. I can never get those but Im going to look at the way you go about that, and see if I can fix that in my own game.

9:35. Timing for your f smash is off. If you had released earlier, the game would probably be over by now.

9:42. Dair trapped into a fair.

9:35-9:50. You just got outsped by Peachs attacks like 5 times in a row, which is how ill made up the solid 80% lead you had.

9:55. He handed himself to you on a silver platter with that airdodge. hard punish would have been timing a bair on his landing. but you could have at least just turned around and grabbed him.

9:58. Shield grabbed the dair to nair on shield. The chances you get to do that before her jab comes out is low but it looked like you read her trying to do something else. In which case, you outsmarted him. good job.

9:59. Im just a douchebag so i would have gone for bdacus after that down throw. But you went for run up f smash which was good too, even though you were a tiny bit out of range.

10:00-10:13. You are starting to get anxious for the kill. Calm yourself when you notice this. You are still in the lead so theres no reason to get antsy, especially against Peach. Her kill moves are as bad as yours.

10:15-10:23 solid pressure from below while staying safe. I approve.

10:26. Well spaced jump over bair for the kill. [/collapse]

Conclusion, if you played all of your match ups as well as you play the peach matchup, you will/would definitely be a major threat. Solid player that does quite well when stays patient. Spacing is highly on point. Solid punish game. But you do need to work on breaking bad habits that players will take advantage of. Like spindashing immediately when you get hit offstage. Also is not perfect when making the distinction between when to make aggressive plays and when to make patient plays. Practice your baits a little bit more, and get all your other matchups to the level that you play the Peach matchup at. And continue to take advantage of player deficiencies.



ANALYSIS #3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZlUQCu7ZVA&feature=plcp

This will be an analysis of game 2 of this set, starting at 5:10 by request.
[collapse=" KC24"]
5:20. Very good pressure, you have him in the air, and you pull a very smart frame trap into a jab combo.
5:28. You get hit by Zair to bomb to nair. The way to avoid things like that is to treat toon link as if you are fighting wario. Every time he touches you with something, DI and SDI up and away, so that you dont get extensive damage racked up on you.
5:31. Should have been an easy powershield on that arrow, you took 4% needlessly. Sure its only 4%, but how many times do you need to get hit with 'just 4%' before it becomes an actual issue? Those arrows are going to be flying at you all match, and if its ok to get hit by one once in a while, that one can turn into 3 or ten, and all of a sudden you look back on the match and youve take 100 damage in easily beatable arrows. That can change a match.

5:40. You need to work on your item control, catching things with an airdodge is not the business. Z grabs and instant tosses is where its at.

5:44. that spring dair was very tricky, and you have to do things like that. To throw your opponent off and keep him on his toes.
5:45 Hit him with his own bomb. Good.
5:47. Spindash from that range is not a good choice. Plus you didnt change the spindash follow up so he punished you out of shield for it. Dont spindash jump into an aerial if you know the opponent is going to shield it. after you hit them with the grounded spindash, you can instantly spring (what X does) you can instantly dair (what I do) you can keep rolling and turn around, or you can jump and than double jump to avoid the opponents punishment option.
5:51. Very good punish on the airdodge, but you mistimed the bair afterwards, which would have set you up for some strong land camp follow ups.

5:55. You got tricked. You thought you were doing something smart by waiting for the boomerang and going under it. But all that did was give Quest more time to prepare a counter attack for when you eventually came at him.

6:00. you punish the grab with a grab, smart choice, but since hes already in hookshot lag, hes preemptively mashing out of the grab he knows youre going for. Now its ok that he broke this grab, because you have to test your opponent to see how they react to certain situations. But now you have to use that knowledge in the future. because it will be important later on.
6:08. gotta be a bit tighter on your grab timing and spacing.

6:14. What makes this matchup hard. That bomb drop airdodge is very hard to deal with. You have to either, wait until the very last second to follow him and punish his landing (Dash attack is good for this) or you have to go up and follow him, but if you do that, you have to delay your aerial to the point that it will grab the bomb if he lets go of it. Also, dont airdodge if you dont have to, that just a general rule, and thats why you got hit with the follow up rang.

6:21. Just another arrow. You could have clanked that one with a fair.
6:23-6:35 Thats what im talking about! That was a number of very smart choices in a row. As you can see from when you were standing still before the down smash, that tells me you were very calm and patient about it. You spaced the down smash well. you read him well into the second grab and the spring gimp was super tricky. even I wasnt expecting that. Im going to steal that move. Thats how I can tell you are a smart player. You even grabbed the ledge to make sure. I approve. It was constant pressure that you thought out and executed.
6:35. You wait for him to come to you, while avoiding all his projectiles. Good, you are still calm, are you are being smart by not taking damage.

6:40. But then you get impatient and you rush in, which gets him free damage, and an easy airdodge punish (remember what I said about that?

6:53. Good punish from underneath.
6:56. Down tilt to up tilt made me cringe. Dont ever use up tilt, just grab, its a better set up and more damage.
7:00. Smart recovery, baited him into the spring dair. thats 11% and stage control.
7:04. Just another zair
7:07. Just another arrow. But you f tilted his attempt to follow up, which was good.

7:12. That was a very unique punish. If that was me, I would have just faired or up aired out of shield. He definitely had time to shield the ASC, but I think he was so taken aback by you jumping offstage after shielding an attack, you confused him long enough to leave himself open to a 16% punish, where as I would have only gotten ~10. But after that, you backed off, and I think you should have gone back in and applied more pressure.
7:20. Good move on holding the spindash, it makes people nervous and they airdodge into us, free damage. But you flopped the execution.

7:27. Once, again, an excellent show of patience in getting back to the stage, and avoiding his attempts to punish it, even through a trip.
7:42. Just another zair.
7:44. I BELIEVE, after the first hit of f smash, you can jump out of shield and either up air or bair tink. and you wont get hit by the second hit.

7:46. Once again you fell into a tink trap. You were so concerned about spacing out the voomerang, that you let him pull a bomb and advance the entire stage. Then since he had you in the corner, he throws the bomb at you. You are probably panicking a bit at this point so you catch it and try to jump away, at which point you arent thinking things through completely and he read you like a book and fairs you for the kill. That entire sequence happened because you were more concerned about the boomerang, than the tink.
7:50 You had a bit to recollect yourself, so you return to the evasive game. you go about 20 seconds without getting hit and than you scope him leaving himself open and run in for a grab. very smart play.
8:05. I dont know if you were trying to read the bomb explosion or the aerial from the ledge, but either way you made the right call and pushed him further offstage.

8:08. This, IMO, is the turning point of the match. You essentially perform a perfect textbook gimp. But then you mistime and easy edgehog. This would have put you up a full 2 stocks to 1. and essentially sealed the game for you. But since you messed up, something interesting happens. Note, you are at 0 percent when this happens.
8:15. Seeming a bit desperate for the kill, you go for a spindash bair and a down smash even though he is at too low a % for either to kill.
8:20. An early bair.
8:25. Running offstage for no real reason.

You Missed the kill and then started getting anxious, which took you out of the bait and punish style that you had gotten you the big lead in the first place in favor of too much aggression and extending yourself too far. So now
8:28. You take 3-4 bairs to the face, for doing something stupid.
8:37. just another zair.
8:45. He went for the toon link trap again, and got you focusing on the boomerang instead of him. luckily he didnt get anything out of it.
8:47. Another bad spindash. another bair out of shield.
8:57. You go back to the bait and punish mode, but it seems like youre more anxious than before, earlier you were being calm and graceful, now it just looks like youre waiting for an excuse to force your way in.
You dont get hit for about 30 seconds, but neither did he, and he ends up reading your roll for a fair at 9:30.

9:35. Smart move to make the spindash safe by preemptively springing, but you down aired the wrong way and got punished for it.
9:48. Very interesting way to get the kill. But at the same time. you could have been at 2 stock 0 damage when you got that kill, but now youre at 116, which is almost kill percent. You took all that damage because you mistimed a ledgegrab.

9:54. Good powershielding here, but you still ate an arrow.
10:00. Lol, I dont think you meant to footstool him, but it worked so w/e. and than you got him to whiff a grab. but you didnt learn from earlier when he broke it last time. You shouldnt have tried to pummel at that percent. You lost out n what could hve been a lot of damage.
10:10. you let him control too much of the space of the stage, so now he was able to pressure you to the ledge.
10:20. You panicked again and autopilloted an airdodge into an up smash. There was no reason to airdodge there, but you were scared already and he just waited for you to hang yourself.

After that, you got WAYYY too aggressive after you died. In the same position at the beginning of your first two stocks where you played patient and simply took the punishments that he gave you. Now, on your last stock, you get wayy too aggressive again, and walk face first into about 70%

11:00. Just a few more rinky dink projectiles that shouldnt have hit you.
11:10. He rides his momentum pretty much the entire stock, and then reads you like a book into an up smash. You should have lost right here. but you lucked out a bit. And the same thing that happened to you when you failed to kill him is about to swing back towards him now that he made the same mistake.

11:14. The next 10 seconds are a crazy combination of his fear making him do random bad things and your impeccable option coverage. You hit him during his bomb pull and got in position to smartly punish an airdodge. And since he panicked i think he tried to zair you, but messed up his spacing and got the ledge, and fell into the down smash anyway. None of which gave him his jump back. Perfectly timed a bair to frame trap him into a spring, and with out a jump, you fixed your earlier mistake and perfectly timed your ledge grab for the game.

To be fair, you probably shouldnt have won that game, because you got completely guard broken mentally between your 2nd and 3rd stocks, but he gave you one more chance than he should have, and you were able to compose yourself long enough to make a few smart moves and take the game. But the first half of the game you played incredibly intelligent. You made the matchup look like its not super terrible for us, and now I see what espy meant when he said that youre supposed to be aggressive against toon link. You have to be on him hard, but you pay a lot if you over extend yourself.



[/collapse]
Conclusion.
Kid Craft24 is a player who is quite intelligent and has many of his consistent punishes and follow ups nailed down. He doesnt seem to make many technical errors, which is important for a sonic player. However, his main problems seem to stem from his youth and inexperience. He chooses options that arent always the best for the situation (seriously, dont ever use up tilt), and he is not nearly as smart with his choices when he is on the defensive as he is when he is on the offensive. He tends to go on auto pilot when put in a defensive situation, which allows him to be read more easily. His level of play also seems to be highly dependant on his mood, similar to bloodcross. Playing better players more consistently will force him to improve in these areas. Once he begins to play as well when he is happy and offensive when he is upset and on the defensive, results will improve. Lots of potential.
 

Kuraudo

4Aerith
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If I were a moderator, I would have this closed already. Move this to the proper thread in the Winning Steak criticism thread. What's the point of this thread? It's nice to give such deep insight, but really.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Stuff in the sticky threads gets lost too easily. Plus the critique thread never gets this specific. Lastly i may make this a series

:phone:
 

JMan8891

Halfrican-American
Joined
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Messages
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Its valid. We used to have Kojin's Laboratory back in the glory days. Critiques from the community aren't the same as a dedicated, knowledgeable thread. It has a place and its up to the user to utilize one or the other (or both)

:phone:
 
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Took dat spring trap to uair trick right outta my book of lolz ;P. But yea she does have some predictable habits like spin charge jump into bair a lot.(though most sonic players have that bad habit)
 

FRiSKruns

Smash Ace
Premium
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Awesome job KIDgoggles there was very very little I'd disagree with on your critique (If anything at all), and it was extemely thorough.
I would love it if you critiqued my next tourney set for me, if you could I've love you forever bro, no homo :)

EDIT: On a side-note, I approve of this being a thread, basically Jman's reasoning.

If Kojin had the Lab, why wouldn't KID be allowed to more or less have an equivalent if he's willing to put in the effort? (and this being that I really really liked Kojin's Sonic lab)
 

Kuraudo

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If you make this into a series, then it'd be fine. I would just think that if its gonna be a one-off or very sporadic that it went to the critique thread. But by all means then.

:phone:
 

BSP

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Louisiana
Nice K.I.D.

Also, that snake didn't realize he could just hold A to make charging spin charge a bad idea.
 

B_AWAL

Smash Master
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FIRST AND FOREMOST. Kelsy, this is 2012, We dont catch items with airdodge anymore. People stopped doing that 2-3 years ago. You can either catch them with Z (or w/e button you use to grab) you can aerial, or you can Instant Throw in mid air. If you didnt know, this is performed with basically the same motion as a glide toss, except your in the air. Stop catching things with airdodge, you will never beat a snake or diddy EVER as long as you keep doing that.

Man... WHY DA **** DID I NOT KNO THIS!?!

:sonic:
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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If this grows, I'll let it be. Otherwise, I'm gonna merge it with the video thread.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
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Finland
Maybe if I could get a video of myself and get such a quality critique as this, I could actually pick up Sonic. I've tried so many times, but I always fail because I'm bad and Sonic is incredibly hard. He seems like an incredibly fun character once you master him.
 

B_AWAL

Smash Master
Joined
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I wish I could play more...

Working a real job is a pain...

-___-

O I got a legit job alongside DJ'in

So i really dont even play like that anymore

:sonic:
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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Now, to be fair, I dont really like Tesh as a person, on the boards at least. But I'm a nice guy, so Ill help anybody out. And even if he doesnt care to see my analysis, maybe somebody else can glean something from it and progress as a player. That being said, I will not take shots at him or anybody else i do this for unnecessarily, I will criticize all matches fairly.

That being said,
The match in question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbQVFaj5j4I&list=UU41J4HZrKL22qcerM3DC7nQ&index=3&feature=plcp
Game 2 only.
starting at 4:49

4:54. this is the basic Peach shield trap that everyone should learn how to deal with effectively, simply rolling away will allow the peach to observe and react to you for an easy punish. All peachs can and will do this, it is essential to her game. I might have up bd or jumped in that situation.

5:01. Gotta work on timing your punishes for people ADing into the ground.

5:04. blocking peachs dash attack like that give you the option to get a free easy punish f tilt, or go for nonguaranteed big damage. cant blame you for going for the big damage option.
5:05. powershielded f tilt, you should have grabbed or dash attacked for that. going for another big damage punish got you jab out of spindash

5:06. Major problem for all sonics. As soon as we get hit, we always want to spindash back in there. We have to be more aware, because spindash has no priority and gets beaten easily. This is a recurring issue. nice SDI to up tilt though.

5:09. Apparently, ASC does a number on peachs shield. We have to learn to trick her into shielding against us more, because she can easily nair us out of that if she can react.

5:10-5:15. Gotta be a little more precise with your sharking when you have people on a platform.

5:16. Spindashing when peach can react to it is always bad because all of her aerials stuff it.

5:20. Running under peach to reset situation and spacing, smart move. Will need to be done a lot in this matchup.

5:25. All of us do the falling bair when they di out of our aerials in that situation. Its a good move, but we have to make sure we stay aware because that can back fire at times.

5:28. Got a little hasty again and walked into a dair.

5:33. Very smart timing of spindash. You didnt try to punish lag that she doesnt have. You waited and instead, punished the option that she used after she landed (dash away) and you milked it for 30%. Also, good spacing on the up airs to trade and beat her down airs.

5:40. Basic peach dair trap again. She can pretty much react to anything we do in this situation. So special consideration needs to be put into not getting in this situation to begin with.

5:44. Good bair spacing, if you had f smashed right there, she might have walked into it.

5:45. Tech skill error, I assume. Meant to be an up air OOS? Gotta tighten that up bro.

5:48. It worked that time, but dont make a habit of spinning right into somebody in that situation. Not saying you do. Just precautionary advice.

5:50-5:55. Good bair spacing. You have been a little more aggresive on punishing those airdodges though. Hers IS the worst in the game.

5:55-6:25. Very good display of spacing and patience. Aside from that one fair. This was good and because of choosing your moves intelligently, you were able to secure a kill on Peach at 128%

6:08. Good punish, she ate 20% because she tried to pull a turnip, thats what we need to do against this character.

6:10. Pushing a little too hard again, got you daired.

6:12. See 5:48.

6:28. Spring to get rid of invincibility. Thumbs up.

6:30-6:48. Lots of bad decisions here. Got too aggresive trying to build a lead and got outprioritised. Spindashed right into peach from offstage. and walked into another Dair trap. But you got out of that one unscathed, luckily.

6:50. See: 5:09. Peachs shield is apparently bad against ASC, either that or ill keeps dropping shield too soon. Either way, thats a quick and easy 25%

6:57. Preemptive bair, beat her option and would have kept you safe if it didnt hit. I approve.

7:00. two easy spindash punishes. except on the second one, she DIs the spindash hit and kills you for it. I predict in the future people DIing out of our spindash stuff is going to be a bigger and bigger problem for us to overcome.

7:15. This is why challenging peach consistently is bad. You used a move that beats peachs moves, in f smash, but because you timed it poorly. You ate 30% and lost a lot of the lead you had. But you did good to minimize the damage by springing away.

7:17. More strong play and showing of patience and choosing encounters wisely. Though there was another tech skill error in the form of a random up smash. ASC is starting to look like a really good option against Peach. But Ill just might not know that hes supposed to nair it.

7:44. Good spotdodge punish. Bad throw follow up. Stay under peach and space up airs to force her to airdodge into more grabs. Thats the Espy and KID way.

7:49. Dair on shield again and she guesses right again. This leads to ill juggling you for about 40%. Gotta be more precise with your defensive options. It may seem scrubby, but if they dont know how to punish your spring escapes, then keep doing it, no reason to eat damage unnecessarily.

7:57. SPACE BEARS!

8:05. Testing your luck with that spindash into people from offstage thing. Although that time it looked like you timed it to punish her aerial.

8:08. That fall through bair, does that hit people on the platform, if it doesnt, I dont really know why you did that.

8:10. Caught him swinging at air, take your free damage.

8:15. Should have naired maybe, because now youre scaling your bair and its not killing at percents that it should be.

8:17. Down smash here would have crushed his soul.

8:20. Good attempt on the RBF (Run Behind F smash) only reason he dodged it is because hes probably used to playing you, but that will definitely work on people that arent.

8:25. Now, you spindashing into people from offstage is a habit, and certain players will take advantage of this. Watch yourself in the future. If that was me, i would at this point acknowledged this and had my strongest punish ready for the next time you do this.

8:28. I did not even know you could grab Peach between the hits of her dash attack like that. Only on power shield?

8:30. I would have waited and punished the spotdodge if i knew my reaction to the stand up was late.

8:34. I consider this string of spindash from offstage into Peach, into SDId fair into back air kill EXTREMELY lucky and fortunate on your part.

8:37. Followed the kill with top plat form spring. Now she has to double jump over it, and with her fall speed her I frames will be gone by the time she gets to the ground anyway.

8:43-8:53. Very smart evasion tactics lead into a spindash, and a very nice double bair airdodge punish. 35%. Very good way to start the last stock.

8:58. See what I mean, you got hit, tried to immediately spindash back in there and almost lost the stock from it. But your DI was on point so kudos for that.

9:03. Dair trap again. You have to get better at acknowledging and avoiding no-win situations like those. It lead to you dying.

9:15. Again, making ASC look very good, and tight spacing on the bair.

9:28. ASC on Peachs shield is basically turning into dair on our shield for her. You get another well spaced bair for it.

9:31. Good timing on the roll punish again. I can never get those but Im going to look at the way you go about that, and see if I can fix that in my own game.

9:35. Timing for your f smash is off. If you had released earlier, the game would probably be over by now.

9:42. Dair trapped into a fair.

9:35-9:50. You just got outsped by Peachs attacks like 5 times in a row, which is how ill made up the solid 80% lead you had.

9:55. He handed himself to you on a silver platter with that airdodge. hard punish would have been timing a bair on his landing. but you could have at least just turned around and grabbed him.

9:58. Shield grabbed the dair to nair on shield. The chances you get to do that before her jab comes out is low but it looked like you read her trying to do something else. In which case, you outsmarted him. good job.

9:59. Im just a douchebag so i would have gone for bdacus after that down throw. But you went for run up f smash which was good too, even though you were a tiny bit out of range.

10:00-10:13. You are starting to get anxious for the kill. Calm yourself when you notice this. You are still in the lead so theres no reason to get antsy, especially against Peach. Her kill moves are as bad as yours.

10:15-10:23 solid pressure from below while staying safe. I approve.

10:26. Well spaced jump over bair for the kill.


Conclusion, if you played all of your match ups as well as you play the peach matchup, you will/would definitely be a major threat. Solid player that does quite well when stays patient. Spacing is highly on point. Solid punish game. But you do need to work on breaking bad habits that players will take advantage of. Like spindashing immediately when you get hit offstage. Also is not perfect when making the distinction between when to make aggressive plays and when to make patient plays. Practice your baits a little bit more, and get all your other matchups to the level that you play the Peach matchup at. And continue to take advantage of player deficiencies.
 

B_AWAL

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
4,883
Location
Tallahassee
Match 2

Test played very well

I just dont think this vid was a good 1 4 me to learn from

Peachs movs can cancel out ALOT of Sonic's Mindgames and Illmatic just wasn't taking advantage of that. Idk which was more apparent... Test being good or Illmatic not bein as dominant as can be.

I'm jus comparing the MU to when I played this Peach named Goofball in FL

Although being patient might help me

:sonic:

I need 2 get a match of mine up here ronto
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
If anything you learn how important it is to take advantage of things that your opponent might not know about the matchup. Do it till it stops working. Dont not do any particular move just because YOU know what option of the opponents can stop it. You always have to know if THEY know what option of theirs can beat you.
 

B_AWAL

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
4,883
Location
Tallahassee
Thats true....

I myself just need to find ways to get better besides watching other ppl play

No1 wants to play a WIfI Sonic

:sonic:
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
No one wants to play any sonic.

All you ***gets make me look bad. I cant even money match people way better than me because playing you douchebags makes them hate fighting sonic.

Nobody that plays with me ever says anything like that.
 

B_AWAL

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,883
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Tallahassee
I.... haven't played ANYONE outside of tourney since like... Feb....

and event before then I'm RARELY EVER got to play ppl outside of tourney since '09

:sonic:
 
Joined
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Rhode Island
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Kid Craft 24
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Most of the people in my region don't really worry about playing me, at least not until i beat 3 ranked **** in a row and then i see like 2 tvs next to me trying to practice against sonic :p.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
I appreciate any input, so someone tell KID I said thanks.

Illmatic is retired btw. He quit a few months ago and probably doesn't even own a wii anymore. He has beaten me every single time I've played him before (sometimes 2-0, sometimes 2-1) with Peach and I believe once with Meta-knight. I could already tell his reaction time was a bit off from the first game, so maybe I wasn't thinking as hard as I could have been.

If you want to see how it went down when he was in practice, just youtube "illmatic vs tesh" and you should get a few videos of him beating me over the past 2 years. Yea Ozzfest, Nikefest, Syncfest, HOBO, mid tier side events...
 

z00ted

The Assault of Laughter ﷼
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
10,800
nah tesh beat me fair and square, but I did go MK one game so that was sorta dumb lol
he's gotten a lot better!
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
I was actually considering that for the next version already.

uhhh.. I dont know if I have it in me to do an entire set, is there one game you would like me to look at specifically?
 
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