King Dedede vs Lucario Matchup Discussion

[Gates]

This week in the King Dedede Matchup Thread we're discussing Lucario. We'd really appreciate it if you contributed any matchup knowledge you have to the discussion. There is a link to the thread below. I'd appreciate it if you posted there, but feel free to discuss the matchup here too.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192600

Thanks!

 

[Greenpoe]

DeDeDe wrecks Lucario. [/thread]

 

[Pr0phetic]

D3 has a projectile that rivals Lucario's. However, Lucario must stay spaced and aerial, to avoid D3's grab.

Lucario must make quick work, as D3 is probably the best gimper in the game.
Lucario's FTilt, Dair, and Nair will help greatly in this match.

DON'T GET GRABBED.

 

[Sigrid Fiinikkusu]

I've never actually had much trouble with D3. He's a fat lard so it's kind of hard to miss that big of a target. Of course it's no good to roll into a d-smash lol.

 

[TK Wolf]

I fight a D3 mainer on a semi-regular basis, and a few others at tournies. D3 might be Lucario's worst matchup. If it's not his worst, it's definitely his most frustrating.

-Luc is pretty much forced to approach for the majority, of not all of this match.
- Lucario can't pressure with auraspheres (AS) very well, partially because the waddles block it, but also because a surprise gordo can destroy Luc, making it too risky.
- D3 can obviously chaingrab Luc across the stage and set him up for some edgeguarding pain. I honestly don't see many gimps, but racking the damage on hurts.
- If Luc is lucky enough to get a forcepalm grab (FPG) on D3 when they're at low percents, he can take good advantage of it. It's rare though, and with D3's monster grab range it's often not worth the risk, unless D3 does something punishable.
- On the ground, D3's ftilt outranges everything in Luc's arsenal other than an AS. If close enough and timed just right, I suppose Luc could powershield it and punish, but I'm not sure about that.
- In the air, D3's dair, uair, and bair win over mostly anything Luc can throw at him. Luc can approach from the front (if D3 doesn't have enough time to turn around and bair), or a 45 degree angle to get in some fairs.

- If D3 isn't careful, Luc can charge an AS on top of his shield to chip away at it. Luc can mixup approaches coming out of shfair. The only unpunishable approach is shfair then jump away. If Luc can read D3 well enough, he can mixup beween shfair->bair from the other side, shfair->dair (delayed),shfair->nair, shfair->AS. All of those except for shfair->AS can be punished easily if D3 just holds his shield up. The trick is to make D3 think you're not using a 2nd attack, or that he has time to interrupt, then surprise him with a hit.
- The main problem is that any trick Luc tries obviously has a risk. If he outsmarts, D3 Luc stands to gain a short combo assuming D3 can DI properly, while if D3 reacts properly he gains a changrab across the stage followed by offstage fighting in his advantage.
- Luc wants to get D3 in the air and generally above him in this match, it's hard to do but a definite advantage.
- If D3 is forced to use his upB and land on stage, Luc can Usmash through it, or shAD then dair. If D3 is careless and hangs onto the edge too long, Luc can fsmash him. Luc can put some reasonable pressure on D3 recovering... as long as he doesn't fall for D3's neutralB.

- It's not uncommon for Luc to live to 140%, because while D3 can rack up damage, he doesn't have that many KO moves that Luc easily falls for or can't handle.
- Luc, however, has an even harder time KOing D3. If Luc is high in damage, then D3 still needs to be well into the 100's. If Luc is on a fresh stock, it's pretty easy for D3 to live to 170%.

If I had to slap a number of it, I'd say that at the very best it's 60:40 in D3s favor. I wouldn't hesitate to say 65:35.

Lucario's FTilt, Dair, and Nair will help greatly in this match.

I have to disagree with you there. D3 loooooooooves when Lucario dairs, because as long as he shields it (unless Luc is higher than he'd be from shorthopping) he gets a free grab. Ftilt can be decent, but the range of D3's ftilt makes it hard to get in such a position. Nair is great for finishing combos, but if you use it on a grounded D3 and didn't hit him with a fair leading to the nair, or manage to fake him out, you will get grabbed before you even land.

 

[Browny]

theres no excuse for landing a dair in front of DDD. Part of learning the matchup would imply that good lucario players would NEVER finish a dair approach on the ground. always drop the dair on ddd's head then jump away if his shield survives. you can even SH fair -> dair and still have enough time to jump so there really is no excuse for getting caught other than making a mistake (the sort of serious mistake like trying to recover from below the stage with falco lol...)

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y2XqtkaAIE

I don't think anything else needs to be said.

 

[Gates]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y2XqtkaAIE

I don't think anything else needs to be said.

Yeah, we did that joke already.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Technically, *I* did that joke already in conjunction with Sam.

You guys owe us.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I have to disagree with you there. D3 loooooooooves when Lucario dairs, because as long as he shields it (unless Luc is higher than he'd be from shorthopping) he gets a free grab. Ftilt can be decent, but the range of D3's ftilt makes it hard to get in such a position. Nair is great for finishing combos, but if you use it on a grounded D3 and didn't hit him with a fair leading to the nair, or manage to fake him out, you will get grabbed before you even land.

Even though his FTilt outranges you, it is not very high on knockback or strong, so you can easily capitalize or shield it.

Dair is to never be used on a shield infront of D3, jump back an reset, you just applied shield pressure, try to punish.

Many people's Nair's harm D3, and since he has slow aerial speed, its great to hit him with.

Your correct, getting him into the air the best priority, whether it'd be a UTilt chain or Dash -> Usmash -> UTilt

 

[TK Wolf]

you can even SH fair -> dair and still have enough time to jump so there really is no excuse for getting caught other than making a mistake (the sort of serious mistake like trying to recover from below the stage with falco lol...)

I've been ripped out of the air by D3's grab when attempting shfair->dair->jump away.

 

[manhunter098]

I've been ripped out of the air by D3's grab when attempting shfair->dair->jump away.

You were too low to the ground, do the d-air above him, not in front of him.

 

[Timbers]

theres no excuse for landing a dair in front of DDD. Part of learning the matchup would imply that good lucario players would NEVER finish a dair approach on the ground. always drop the dair on ddd's head then jump away if his shield survives. you can even SH fair -> dair and still have enough time to jump so there really is no excuse for getting caught other than making a mistake

He said at shorthop height DDD can still grab Lucario after a dair. Pivoting a grab isn't hard, and dair does have significant afterlag on it. Fulljumped approaches aren't really Lucario's primary approach option either.

 

[TK Wolf]

You were too low to the ground, do the d-air above him, not in front of him.

Same thing Timbers said. Luc falls downward after dair for a bit before he can jump. In that time D3 can grab you if you've shorthopped instead of fulljumped.


One thing I should add to this discussion is that D3 apparently has some shield problems where his shield doesn't always cover the top of his head, or his feet. I haven't been playing enough since I read that to test it out though.

 

[dguy6789]

D3 makes Lucario a sad little furry

 

[Timbers]

One thing I should add to this discussion is that D3 apparently has some shield problems where his shield doesn't always cover the top of his head, or his feet. I haven't been playing enough since I read that to test it out though.

Landing nairs on top of an eaten DDD shield will stab it really easily.

Wouldn't recommend doing so in a serious set until you know exactly how much the shield has to be eaten before it'll be stabbed.

Nair shieldstabs a lot earlier than dair though.

 

[ckm]

this matchup blows.

The only thing I have found that works for the projectile game is to shorthop AS over the waddles, and try to time it so it hits DDD while hes throwing one. Also, if you spam BAS, you might be able to hit him more than he hits you if youre lucky.

Don't try to jab his shield, you will regret it. Take it easy with the Fsmash... his grab range is rediculous.

If you are getting chaingrabbed, be aware that DDD can end the chaingrab with a dash attack that will KO you at rediculously low percentages... if you spotdodge when he does it, you will get hit after the dodge ends. Best option I have found in this situation is to roll towards him as he moves in for the dash attack.

Remember DDD has considerable lag when throwing waddles, so take advantage of this. Perfect shield the waddles as you approach, and grab him.

Also, when you do Dair, if do it high enough that you can follow up with a ff nair, you can try to bait a shieldgrab. Try to time the ff nair so it hits them right when they drop their sheild to punish your dair with a shieldgrab.

Spacing seems to be the key to this match. Be aware of where you are landing. DDD will attempt to adjust spacing so hes right next to you when you land... and be aware that a good DDD player will be a master at turnaround grabs--just because you arent in front of him doesnt mean you are safe.

To be honest, my most successful strategy against DDD is... counterpicking MK. =/

 

[Pr0phetic]

Same thing Timbers said. Luc falls downward after dair for a bit before he can jump. In that time D3 can grab you if you've shorthopped instead of fulljumped.


One thing I should add to this discussion is that D3 apparently has some shield problems where his shield doesn't always cover the top of his head, or his feet. I haven't been playing enough since I read that to test it out though.

try to land it directly over his head I guess, that's were i aim anyway.

 

[Omit]

Bleh since i only play online i dont know if my knowledge counts that much >.> but de3s wrecks me. thats why hes my secound ^ -^

 

[B0mbe1c]

This guy just hijacked my name!! <_______________________<

Aura is win. D3 CGes Lucario to gimp, so yea...

 

[Kitamerby]

Don't get grabbed. Don't get Bair'd.

Matchup discussion over. <<

 

[Timbers]

This guy just hijacked my name!! <_______________________<

Aura is win. D3 CGes Lucario to gimp, so yea...

D3 can't gimp Lucario unless its an inhale.

Luc can take massive damage but no gimps will be had.

 

[Kitamerby]

D3 can't gimp Lucario unless its an inhale.

Luc can take massive damage but no gimps will be had.

The point is that Lucario suffers badly due to being unable to outprioritize the Bair when facing forwards offstage. Lucario will take horrible amounts of damage from each grab due to DDD's exceptional edgeguarding.

 

[Timbers]

The point is that Lucario suffers badly due to being unable to outprioritize the Bair when facing forwards offstage. Lucario will take horrible amounts of damage from each grab due to DDD's exceptional edgeguarding.

No that was not the point.

His point was DDD can gimp Lucario.

DDD cannot.

DDD has superior damage racking capabilities in almost every situation on this match, which is why it's hard for Luc.

 

[Donkey Bong]

i was not aware of this... maybe the DDD player was just sandbagging me
but i got him down to his last stock

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I am not sure if I agree with this discussion. Is everyone keeping in mind that the stage is not always Final Destination, and that D3 screams "juggle me" every time he is hit?

D3 may be the easiest character in the game for Lucario to chain moves against...

 

[Donkey Bong]

I am not sure if I agree with this discussion. Is everyone keeping in mind that the stage is not always Final Destination, and that D3 screams "juggle me" every time he is hit?

D3 may be the easiest character in the game for Lucario to chain moves against...

see, thats what i was thinking, once you get DDD in the air, he's basically your ***** til he lands

 

[The Halloween Captain]

see, thats what i was thinking, once you get DDD in the air, he's basically your ***** til he lands

Not only that, but Dair makes for a godly shield-poke against D3 if spaced well. Even if the first one doesn't get through, you can just D-air a second time. Although should the second one fail, you want to make sure you can use your second jump to get away, or land behind D3 so as not to get chain-grabbed.

EDIT: It IS essential to approach D3 and land 1 attack that gets him under your control, and juggle. You cannot be playing this match defensively.

EDIT2: Fullhops are your friend in this match. It sounds odd, but SH is often too low to use against D3, IMO. Actually, with all the shorthop talk, I can't help but wonder if full-hops were considered in this matchup.

 

[Omit]

This guy just hijacked my name!! <_______________________<

Aura is win. D3 CGes Lucario to gimp, so yea...

I already explained that i came up with this name by myself LOL. where would i have noticed your name anyways?

 

[supergamer001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAPFFUMOJAM

/thread

 

[TK Wolf]

!@#$ you waddles. >=(

 

[Silvran]

If D3 overuses his shield (highly likely), the constant pressure on it/decay from having it out often leaves the pompom on the hat and his feet open. If you can routinely aim attacks at those two spots (not exactly easy with his grab range), you can get through the shield. Waddles do make Aura Sphere difficult to use from range, and the unlucky Gordo... well, we all know what they do. Also, to the people saying D3 is screwed once he's in the air, his D-air and B-air have nice priority... he's far from as helpless as some people were implying. Just my two cents on the matchup. And my motto against D3: Aim for the pompom!

 

[Popertop]

I think Fullhop Fair > Dair > Second Jump Dair > Dair > Nair will shield stab.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I think Fullhop Fair > Dair > Second Jump Dair > Dair > Nair will shield stab.

I think that will shield stab anything big enough. Also, I don't really approach D3 from underneith, so I don't know about his Dair priority, but I am pretty sure our F-air speed can handle D3's Fair. Although, I am not confident, I would need to see some failed but good juggling attempts to know for sure. I know that if you can hit him right the first time, you can combo him so that he's in hit-stun for a while.

EDIT: D3's Bair? He he running away from the stage during his recovery or something?

 

[Omit]

AS alot :[. AA Fp cg :3. Sh Fair to either nair, dair or fair.