TimG57867
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2015
- Messages
- 510
Hey y'all! It's been a hot hour since I've updated this old thing. Since my last version, we've gone through several more updates with a few giving Kirby many of the changes he's so greatly needed. 6.0 and 7.0 in particular. Compared to launch, Kirby has come quite a long way with updates gnawing away at various issues and his results have been steadily improving which can be owed in large part to that. However, while I do feel Kirby is much better than how he started off, he still isn't quite where I'd have him if I wanted him to be capable of taking on the bulk of the roster at equal footing in tournament. And with several updates changing things, I think it's the appropriate time to take this thread to V4! As usual, I have past versions listed for people's reference:
V1: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w0JWASyW1shQCbz8Y-dCPN5DQQTDiwFdbjv7WjiyeFA/edit?usp=sharing
V2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nF3XDTfmBcmZNu95NbXeAptXGpaGslsVBDzwh6GY54s/edit?usp=sharing
V3: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YszI2qfmLQt8SXpU7HWcEfkcUTN7I_lLDRDmbCbpkhM/edit?usp=sharing
Ok, time for a 4th take at this:
1. Allow F-Throw to Combo in Straightforward Fashion on Battlefield if Desired
Thanks to 6.0, U-Air and N-Air became fast enough to be buffered out of F-Throw before Kirby hits the platform. This means that Kirby's ability to throw combo on the stage was partially restored and he can even get some really potent conversions on the stage now! However, this doesn't fully fix the problem cause it doesn't work on the whole roster and it's % and positioning dependent. What would be ideal is if F-Throw had low enough cooldown so that Kirbies could buffer a followup and combo normally or delay their aerial to do a platform extension. This would make damage more straighforward on BF without taking away these newfound combos.
2. Increase Ground Speed to Around 1.8
Another change I remain staunch on once more. Whenever you see folks asking for a mobility buff for Kirby, the air speed is always brought up, but quite rarely is the ground speed given the same attention. A recall a long time ago, someone saying that a ground speed buff would do more good overall because Kirby's combo and neutral games are more geared towards to the ground and letting him cover more ground with his full run would improve his running conversions while also letting him rush down better and catch landings which has historically been one of his main weaknesses. This buff is also a lot more realistic than an air speed buff because they've buffed his run speed before in SSB4. In this game, this speed would put him a notch above Mario's which I don't think is unreasonable and seeing how he's meant to be the "grounded puffball" in contrast to Puff, I feel it's appropriate that he has above average ground speed to match.
3. Increase U-Tilt's Hitstun by about 3-4 Frames
Inhale's startup buff makes Up-Tilt -> Inhale an incredible setup again but Up Tilt itself still leaves a bit to be desired when it comes to combos. From early percent combos to kill setups, Up-Tilt getting a bit more leeway to combo would vastly improve Kirby's advantage state. Kirby by design will always have a limited neutral so it's vital to allow to make the most getting in whenever he does and Up Tilt is easily one of his most important tools for that.
4. Make U-Throw Kill About 20-25% Earlier
Yeah this ain't going anywhere. As I've said before, on Discord, we analyzed the code for Kirby's moves and we ended up discovering that Kirby's Up Throw didn't actually get nerfed at all! Rather, it's unfortunately just a victim of being in a new game. Ultimate has generally higher blast zones than SSB4 and rage has been toned down a good bit. This means Kirby's Up Throw isn't able to seal the deal as efficently as it used to which is a problem is it means you often have to grab and Down Throw your foe 1-3 extra times to seal off a stock. This can hurt Kirby quite a bit in the long run and I feel it's important that it gets its power adjusted to match the game it's been transferred into. Killing 20 to 25% earlier would allow Kirby to get rid of persistent stocks in a much more efficient fashion.
5. Decrease D-Tilt's Endlag by about 3 Frames
This returns once more and follows a similar vain to the Up Tilt buff. The move is solid as is, but making it even better would not only amp Kirby's strenghts but let him compensate even more for various weaknesses. As I've noted before, Kirby's D Tilt actually got a KB change in this game. It sends foes away further sooner and doesn't trip as long. On the flipside, its frame advantage as percent increases actually goes up much quicker. You watch Phan7om's D Tilt guide in the resource directory to learn more about this. What this means is that you don't get to benefit from trips as long but it also makes non trip D Tilt's more useful. However, due to Kirby's current range and mobility, he can only barely fully capitalize on non trip D Tilt's at higher percents. If D Tilt had less lag, D Tilt's even at higher percents would be consistently much more rewarding. Not only that but this would make D Tilt much safer to use at low percents where it's often Kirby's best boxing tool and it would give a shield pressure option that's safe even as it stales. They already buffed the endlag on his F Tilt so they clearly aren't above buffing his ground moves despite them being renowned for being great. And plenty of characters like Wario have D Tilt's with FAF of 17 or lower so it's not unfounded.
6. Slightly Reduce D-Air's Startup and Make Landing Hitbox More Plus on Hit
6.0 gave a ton of love to Kirby's N-Air and U-Air, two aerials of which had left something to be desired for the longest time. Particularly U-Air. But 1 aerial in Kirby's kit that still feels quite lacking is his D-Air. It's left something to be desired ever since SSB4 and the switch to Ultimate was quite unkind to it. Since version 1 I've pushed for improvements to this move and with good reason. Along with Up Tilt, D-Air has the most potential to improve Kirby's advantage state if it were made as proficient as it should be. As it currently is, it has far too much startup to be easily combo'd into, its landing lag is still too great for consistent combos across the roster, and its mid air lag makes it harder to edgeguard with than it should be. Simply making D-Air quicker in these 3 aspects would mend these issues. Reduce its startup by about 4 frames, reduce its landing lag by 4-5, and reduce its mid air lag by about 8 frames, similar to N-Air.
By doing this, the move can now combo consistently off Up Tilt and F-Throw, the landing hitbox is able to yield a +5 hit advantage minimum across the roster, and it becomes much more effective of a coverage option off stage and becomes easier to hit in succession without endangering Kirby too much.
The move has become a meme across the playerbase and I think its time it got the love it deserves.
7. Buff Inhale's Grab Box (Projectile and Grab Box) and Significantly Reduce Lag for Eating Projectiles
Inhale has gotten a ton of love in Smash Ultimate. Despite being Kirby's central design gimmick, it has been an underwhelming for the longest time but Ultimate's patches have addressed many issues. RNG is much better, after 6.0 you have a 20 second guarenteed keep window on copies, and the startup got a beautiful 4 frame buff. It's almost perfect now. The only issues that remain lie in its grab boxes and projectile interactions. The hitbox for detecting projectiles has a blindspot that can lead to Kirby still getting hit and should be made bigger as well as the actual grab box for pulling characters in. Suction starting 4 frames sooner helps but it can still be annoying.
And most importantly, the endlag for eating a projectile is still terrible. If it got a drastic reduction more in line with 's Chomp, it'd help Kirby out so much and in getting past projectiles. Inhale is almost a perfect move. It just needs these nudges to be fully set to go.
8. Reduce Final Cutter's Startup and Endlag and Restore the Blade Beam's Distance
This is a quirky buff that the more I think about the more I feel is key to help Kirby deal with a lot of the weaknesses that come with his innate design. Beyond Final Cutter, Kirby lacks a good ranged anti air that can contest a lot of the massive disjointed attacks from the likes of and . He also lacks the vertical and aerial mobility and range needed to successfully and consistently catch foes like jumping all around him. And his slow and weak Up Air and bad jump overall hinder his ability to punish landings. And beyond Final Cutter's Blade Beam, Kirby has no ranged option to hit or pressure foes from a distance with getting a Copy first. I never fails to amuse when I see all these concepts of new movesets for Kirby that include a smorgus borg of projectiles and disjointed weapons when Final Cutter already has exactly what Kirby needs. Its landing hitbox and rising hits among other things got a lot of buffs to make the move more functional and it's just inches away from being a reliable neutral option overall. It just needs to have 3 things done:
9. Reduce Up Air's Mid-Air FAF by About 4-6 Frames
The buffs Up-Air received in 3.0 were incredibly and almost exaclty what I wanted for the move. The KB buff makes it a creidble kill move and actually good to hit with, the damage buff improves damage racking, and the startup buff makes it easier to hit and combo. At this point, the only aspect that U-Air still lacks in that stops it from becoming a great move is its glaring end lag. While I can understand why it's not as low cooldown as say Mario's by virtue of Kirby's multiple jumps, the end lag is too great that it holds Kirby's advantage state back by an unnecessary degree. It's super close to true comboing into itself and just needs 1 last nudge. It got an FAF reduction of 2 frames at launch and it needs just a bit more of that. If its FAF was reduced by another 4-6 frames, it would finally be the free flowing mid air combo aerial Kirby has always wanted.
10. Increase Rapid Jab's Damage and Range
6.0 really gave Kirby's Jab some much needed love. Prior to that it was with little disagreement seen as Kirby's worst move. The buff making it come out on Frame 2 now allows it to stand as a credible option to use amongst Kirby's superb Tilts as it can now combo off D-Air for most of the roster and is great for shield pressure and ledge coverage. However it's still lacking when it comes to range and damage. It's still outranged by a forward Up-Tilt and it's outdamaged greatly by almost every Rapid Jab. If the hitbox reached a bit further, and the damage on the rapid hits was increased, the move would be pretty much perfect for what it is. It'd have the risk of whiffing the rapid hits but now it'd be balance by a move with solid range that can net you a legitimately good amount of damage.
11. Increase Super Armor on Stone Slightly and Let it Hit Shields Twice Again
Every since the Stone super armor buff, I've felt it no longer needs to be made outright faster and I still feel this way. That's not to say Stone can't be improved further in some other aspects however. Nice as the superarmor is, I think it's just a few frames short of where it should start. If the frames of armor was extended from 19 all the way to 14-15, I think it would help a lot more in landing from rough juggles or catching danagerous but flowed recoveries. And given how unsafe the move overall is, I think it deserves to have its shield break ability restored. Especially as and's have gone untouched. A few other quality of life buffs like restoring the heavy armor percent back to 30% like it was in Brawl to compensate for the 1v1 multiplier and making the cancel time a bit better wouldn't hurt either.
12. Reduce B-Air's Mid-Air FAF by About 3-6 Frames
Now this is an odd change? What the purpose of this you may ask? Well one thing that helps or 's neutral games is their ability to get out multiple B-Airs close to the ground and this is thanks to their incredibly low endlag. This is a luxury Kirby sadly doesn't share because his B-Air has a rough FAF of 41. Now it's clear the don't want to be the only move he uses like in Brawl but i think they have room to improve it and make it safer to throw out. With a FAF decrease of around 3-6, it would not only be able to AC in a short hop but Kirby would be able to jump up before he's forced to land and throw throw out another aerial. It would make his B-Air a much more fearsome neutral tool.
13. Increase Air Speed to Between .90 and .95
And at last we have the air speed. What Kirby buff list ain't complete without it? Over time I've come to make better terms with how Kirby's moveset (particularly F-Air) just wasn't designed with good air mobility in mind. And that's honestly fine. Kirby's kit has the innate tools that, if made consistent enough, would allow him to not need it anyway. At the same time though, I do feel that his air speed could be made just a bit better to improve his combos and disadvantage state without turning him into an entirely new beast. And thanks to his legitimately great air acceleration, it's not like the improvement needs to be massive anyway.
Welp that'll do it for my take on still needed changes as of 7.0. Many things are still listed but a lot of stuff was able to be paired or just outright removed. Kirby's gotten a lot of love in Ultimate that he wishes he got in SSB4 and happy the devs are taking a new approach with him. He's actually on his way to becoming a very credible tournament threat with improving results to show for it. And with these leftover fixes I think he'd truly get there.
V1: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w0JWASyW1shQCbz8Y-dCPN5DQQTDiwFdbjv7WjiyeFA/edit?usp=sharing
V2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nF3XDTfmBcmZNu95NbXeAptXGpaGslsVBDzwh6GY54s/edit?usp=sharing
V3: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YszI2qfmLQt8SXpU7HWcEfkcUTN7I_lLDRDmbCbpkhM/edit?usp=sharing
Ok, time for a 4th take at this:
1. Allow F-Throw to Combo in Straightforward Fashion on Battlefield if Desired
Thanks to 6.0, U-Air and N-Air became fast enough to be buffered out of F-Throw before Kirby hits the platform. This means that Kirby's ability to throw combo on the stage was partially restored and he can even get some really potent conversions on the stage now! However, this doesn't fully fix the problem cause it doesn't work on the whole roster and it's % and positioning dependent. What would be ideal is if F-Throw had low enough cooldown so that Kirbies could buffer a followup and combo normally or delay their aerial to do a platform extension. This would make damage more straighforward on BF without taking away these newfound combos.
2. Increase Ground Speed to Around 1.8
Another change I remain staunch on once more. Whenever you see folks asking for a mobility buff for Kirby, the air speed is always brought up, but quite rarely is the ground speed given the same attention. A recall a long time ago, someone saying that a ground speed buff would do more good overall because Kirby's combo and neutral games are more geared towards to the ground and letting him cover more ground with his full run would improve his running conversions while also letting him rush down better and catch landings which has historically been one of his main weaknesses. This buff is also a lot more realistic than an air speed buff because they've buffed his run speed before in SSB4. In this game, this speed would put him a notch above Mario's which I don't think is unreasonable and seeing how he's meant to be the "grounded puffball" in contrast to Puff, I feel it's appropriate that he has above average ground speed to match.
3. Increase U-Tilt's Hitstun by about 3-4 Frames
Inhale's startup buff makes Up-Tilt -> Inhale an incredible setup again but Up Tilt itself still leaves a bit to be desired when it comes to combos. From early percent combos to kill setups, Up-Tilt getting a bit more leeway to combo would vastly improve Kirby's advantage state. Kirby by design will always have a limited neutral so it's vital to allow to make the most getting in whenever he does and Up Tilt is easily one of his most important tools for that.
4. Make U-Throw Kill About 20-25% Earlier
Yeah this ain't going anywhere. As I've said before, on Discord, we analyzed the code for Kirby's moves and we ended up discovering that Kirby's Up Throw didn't actually get nerfed at all! Rather, it's unfortunately just a victim of being in a new game. Ultimate has generally higher blast zones than SSB4 and rage has been toned down a good bit. This means Kirby's Up Throw isn't able to seal the deal as efficently as it used to which is a problem is it means you often have to grab and Down Throw your foe 1-3 extra times to seal off a stock. This can hurt Kirby quite a bit in the long run and I feel it's important that it gets its power adjusted to match the game it's been transferred into. Killing 20 to 25% earlier would allow Kirby to get rid of persistent stocks in a much more efficient fashion.
5. Decrease D-Tilt's Endlag by about 3 Frames
This returns once more and follows a similar vain to the Up Tilt buff. The move is solid as is, but making it even better would not only amp Kirby's strenghts but let him compensate even more for various weaknesses. As I've noted before, Kirby's D Tilt actually got a KB change in this game. It sends foes away further sooner and doesn't trip as long. On the flipside, its frame advantage as percent increases actually goes up much quicker. You watch Phan7om's D Tilt guide in the resource directory to learn more about this. What this means is that you don't get to benefit from trips as long but it also makes non trip D Tilt's more useful. However, due to Kirby's current range and mobility, he can only barely fully capitalize on non trip D Tilt's at higher percents. If D Tilt had less lag, D Tilt's even at higher percents would be consistently much more rewarding. Not only that but this would make D Tilt much safer to use at low percents where it's often Kirby's best boxing tool and it would give a shield pressure option that's safe even as it stales. They already buffed the endlag on his F Tilt so they clearly aren't above buffing his ground moves despite them being renowned for being great. And plenty of characters like Wario have D Tilt's with FAF of 17 or lower so it's not unfounded.
6. Slightly Reduce D-Air's Startup and Make Landing Hitbox More Plus on Hit
6.0 gave a ton of love to Kirby's N-Air and U-Air, two aerials of which had left something to be desired for the longest time. Particularly U-Air. But 1 aerial in Kirby's kit that still feels quite lacking is his D-Air. It's left something to be desired ever since SSB4 and the switch to Ultimate was quite unkind to it. Since version 1 I've pushed for improvements to this move and with good reason. Along with Up Tilt, D-Air has the most potential to improve Kirby's advantage state if it were made as proficient as it should be. As it currently is, it has far too much startup to be easily combo'd into, its landing lag is still too great for consistent combos across the roster, and its mid air lag makes it harder to edgeguard with than it should be. Simply making D-Air quicker in these 3 aspects would mend these issues. Reduce its startup by about 4 frames, reduce its landing lag by 4-5, and reduce its mid air lag by about 8 frames, similar to N-Air.
By doing this, the move can now combo consistently off Up Tilt and F-Throw, the landing hitbox is able to yield a +5 hit advantage minimum across the roster, and it becomes much more effective of a coverage option off stage and becomes easier to hit in succession without endangering Kirby too much.
The move has become a meme across the playerbase and I think its time it got the love it deserves.
7. Buff Inhale's Grab Box (Projectile and Grab Box) and Significantly Reduce Lag for Eating Projectiles
Inhale has gotten a ton of love in Smash Ultimate. Despite being Kirby's central design gimmick, it has been an underwhelming for the longest time but Ultimate's patches have addressed many issues. RNG is much better, after 6.0 you have a 20 second guarenteed keep window on copies, and the startup got a beautiful 4 frame buff. It's almost perfect now. The only issues that remain lie in its grab boxes and projectile interactions. The hitbox for detecting projectiles has a blindspot that can lead to Kirby still getting hit and should be made bigger as well as the actual grab box for pulling characters in. Suction starting 4 frames sooner helps but it can still be annoying.
And most importantly, the endlag for eating a projectile is still terrible. If it got a drastic reduction more in line with 's Chomp, it'd help Kirby out so much and in getting past projectiles. Inhale is almost a perfect move. It just needs these nudges to be fully set to go.
8. Reduce Final Cutter's Startup and Endlag and Restore the Blade Beam's Distance
This is a quirky buff that the more I think about the more I feel is key to help Kirby deal with a lot of the weaknesses that come with his innate design. Beyond Final Cutter, Kirby lacks a good ranged anti air that can contest a lot of the massive disjointed attacks from the likes of and . He also lacks the vertical and aerial mobility and range needed to successfully and consistently catch foes like jumping all around him. And his slow and weak Up Air and bad jump overall hinder his ability to punish landings. And beyond Final Cutter's Blade Beam, Kirby has no ranged option to hit or pressure foes from a distance with getting a Copy first. I never fails to amuse when I see all these concepts of new movesets for Kirby that include a smorgus borg of projectiles and disjointed weapons when Final Cutter already has exactly what Kirby needs. Its landing hitbox and rising hits among other things got a lot of buffs to make the move more functional and it's just inches away from being a reliable neutral option overall. It just needs to have 3 things done:
- Reduce its startup to somewhere in a Frame 15-18 ball park so that you can more reliable anti air opponents with it and use it maintain combos or advantage state
- Reduce the landing lag from 31 frames to somewhere around 25.
- Restore the Blade Beam's distance which is still reduced from Brawl.
9. Reduce Up Air's Mid-Air FAF by About 4-6 Frames
The buffs Up-Air received in 3.0 were incredibly and almost exaclty what I wanted for the move. The KB buff makes it a creidble kill move and actually good to hit with, the damage buff improves damage racking, and the startup buff makes it easier to hit and combo. At this point, the only aspect that U-Air still lacks in that stops it from becoming a great move is its glaring end lag. While I can understand why it's not as low cooldown as say Mario's by virtue of Kirby's multiple jumps, the end lag is too great that it holds Kirby's advantage state back by an unnecessary degree. It's super close to true comboing into itself and just needs 1 last nudge. It got an FAF reduction of 2 frames at launch and it needs just a bit more of that. If its FAF was reduced by another 4-6 frames, it would finally be the free flowing mid air combo aerial Kirby has always wanted.
10. Increase Rapid Jab's Damage and Range
6.0 really gave Kirby's Jab some much needed love. Prior to that it was with little disagreement seen as Kirby's worst move. The buff making it come out on Frame 2 now allows it to stand as a credible option to use amongst Kirby's superb Tilts as it can now combo off D-Air for most of the roster and is great for shield pressure and ledge coverage. However it's still lacking when it comes to range and damage. It's still outranged by a forward Up-Tilt and it's outdamaged greatly by almost every Rapid Jab. If the hitbox reached a bit further, and the damage on the rapid hits was increased, the move would be pretty much perfect for what it is. It'd have the risk of whiffing the rapid hits but now it'd be balance by a move with solid range that can net you a legitimately good amount of damage.
11. Increase Super Armor on Stone Slightly and Let it Hit Shields Twice Again
Every since the Stone super armor buff, I've felt it no longer needs to be made outright faster and I still feel this way. That's not to say Stone can't be improved further in some other aspects however. Nice as the superarmor is, I think it's just a few frames short of where it should start. If the frames of armor was extended from 19 all the way to 14-15, I think it would help a lot more in landing from rough juggles or catching danagerous but flowed recoveries. And given how unsafe the move overall is, I think it deserves to have its shield break ability restored. Especially as and's have gone untouched. A few other quality of life buffs like restoring the heavy armor percent back to 30% like it was in Brawl to compensate for the 1v1 multiplier and making the cancel time a bit better wouldn't hurt either.
12. Reduce B-Air's Mid-Air FAF by About 3-6 Frames
Now this is an odd change? What the purpose of this you may ask? Well one thing that helps or 's neutral games is their ability to get out multiple B-Airs close to the ground and this is thanks to their incredibly low endlag. This is a luxury Kirby sadly doesn't share because his B-Air has a rough FAF of 41. Now it's clear the don't want to be the only move he uses like in Brawl but i think they have room to improve it and make it safer to throw out. With a FAF decrease of around 3-6, it would not only be able to AC in a short hop but Kirby would be able to jump up before he's forced to land and throw throw out another aerial. It would make his B-Air a much more fearsome neutral tool.
13. Increase Air Speed to Between .90 and .95
And at last we have the air speed. What Kirby buff list ain't complete without it? Over time I've come to make better terms with how Kirby's moveset (particularly F-Air) just wasn't designed with good air mobility in mind. And that's honestly fine. Kirby's kit has the innate tools that, if made consistent enough, would allow him to not need it anyway. At the same time though, I do feel that his air speed could be made just a bit better to improve his combos and disadvantage state without turning him into an entirely new beast. And thanks to his legitimately great air acceleration, it's not like the improvement needs to be massive anyway.
Welp that'll do it for my take on still needed changes as of 7.0. Many things are still listed but a lot of stuff was able to be paired or just outright removed. Kirby's gotten a lot of love in Ultimate that he wishes he got in SSB4 and happy the devs are taking a new approach with him. He's actually on his way to becoming a very credible tournament threat with improving results to show for it. And with these leftover fixes I think he'd truly get there.
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