Kirby Research Thread - OP has new stuff

[momochuu]

Kirby Research Thread

Kirby Forward Smash Kill Percentages~ A lot of Kirby mains use this move too much during a stock and stale it before the right time. To save yourself from having trouble KOing the opponent this way, here's a list of the percentage where every charcter dies.

Move Information taken from t!mmy's guide:

Forward Smash-
15% soon (13% later)
Start-up: 1-13
Hits: 14-21 (hits 8 frames after charge)
Cool-down: 15-53 (39 total)
Hitlag: +9
Kirby leaps forward with a mighty kick! This is a great move when looking to finish off a damaged opponent. The power is good, the range is good, the speed is good. You'll still be fairly vulnerable after using this attack if you miss, but it's moderately safe as far as Smash attacks go.

Down Smash-
14% close (10% toes)
Start-up: 1-9
Hits: 10-20
Cool-down: 11-58 (47 total)
Hitlag: +10
A spinning, crouching attack that sends opponents at either a vertical (sweetspot) or horizontal (toes) angle.


No DI on the opponent's part, fresh Forward Smash performed in the middle of Final Destination:

Bowser~ 103%
Captain Falcon~ 99%
Diddy Kong~ 92%
Donkey Kong~ 105%
Falco~ 86%
Fox~ 81%
Game and Watch~ 82%
Ganondorf~ 101%
Ice Climbers~ 92%
Ike~ 100%
Jigglypuff~ 80%
King Dedede~ 104%
Kirby~ 86%
Link~ 99
Lucario~ 98%
Lucas~ 93%
Luigi~ 96%
Mario~96
Marth~89%
Metaknight~ 85%
Ness~ 94%
Olimar~ 88%
Peach~ 92%
Pikachu~ 85%
Pit~ 94%
Squirtle~ 82%
Charizard~ 103%
Ivysaur~ 98%
R.O.B~ 102%
Samus~ 102%
:shiek:Shiek~ 87%
Snake~ 105%
Sonic~ 94%
Toon Link~ 93%
Wario~ 101%
Wolf~ 96%
Yoshi~ 100%
Zelda~ 87%
Zero Suit Samus~ 86%


thrillagorilla's Up-Angled FSmash/Down Angled FSmash/DSmash/UpSmash kill percentages

A1lion's UpAir -> Footstool percentages

A1lion's Horizontal Attack Range List


In this thread I will also put things from the Kirby Backroom on the first post if the person who originally posted it wants it there.

 

[momochuu]

Archiving Post

ok, thanks to sasukebowser, I tested what moves can hit Kirby immediately out of Inhale->Copy...it was on wifi, but the testing is still valid, since Kirby's shield is buffered anyway.

Note that all characters can hit Kirby after he uses copy if they have an item in hand, by throwing it down immediately after.

Bowser: Nothing

Captain Falcon: Down B

Diddy Kong: Up B, item

Donkey Kong: Nothing

Falco: Nothing

Fox: Down B

Game and Watch: Down Air

Ganondorf: Down B

Ice Climbers: Down Air

Ike: POSSIBLY Up B, I didn't manage to pull it off, but with some kind of funky B-reversal, it may be possible.

Jigglypuff: Nothing

King Dedede: Nothing

Kirby: Nothing (Stone almost does it though)

Link: Item

Lucario: Down Air

Lucas: First hit of Down Air, Down B (with reversal, very difficult to do), PK Thunder doesn't quite hit, but can have interesting results

Luigi: Nothing

Mario: Nothing

Marth: Nothing

Meta Knight: Down Air

Ness: Nothing

Olimar: Nothing

Peach: Float-cancel to Down Air...very difficult to do, I never pulled it off, but my testing partner did a couple times

Pikachu: Nothing

Pit: Nothing

Pokemon Trainer-
Charizard: Nothing
Ivysaur: Down Air
Squirtle: Up B with funky B-reversal action

ROB: Down Air

Samus: Nothing

Sheik: Down Air

Snake: First hit of Down Air

Sonic: Up B, Down Air

Toon Link: Down Air, item
-Note that Down Air will most likely hit you twice for a lot of damage, if you are at a fairly low percent

Wario: Possibly fully charged Down B (not tested, but a half-charged Fart missed)

Wolf: Nothing

Yoshi: Down B

Zelda: Nothing, Neutral B is close though

Zero Suit Samus: Down Air, item

 

[Vyse]

92% with Diddy huh.

I figured it was lower, but, I guess this is from the middle of FD.
Even with DI, Diddy's lightness sets him flying : 0

Fsmash is too good. THieN and I talked about Kirby's inherent awesome on AIM a while ago. That Fsmash just smacks him into oblivion

 

[1nconspikuous]

i think i read somewhere that fsmash angled up actually gets the job done quicker generally... i'm assuming the fsmash you're testing is the straight one, right?

in any case, this is really useful. =) i hate guessing whether it's time to use the fsmash. staling ftl.

 

[momochuu]

92% with Diddy huh.

I figured it was lower, but, I guess this is from the middle of FD.
Even with DI, Diddy's lightness sets him flying : 0

Fsmash is too good. THieN and I talked about Kirby's inherent awesome on AIM a while ago. That Fsmash just smacks him into oblivion

Yeah, even I was surprised at how low Kirby's FSmash killed. It's a pretty ridiculous move. @_@

1nconspikuous~ Yeah, it's the straight one. Didn't know about the angled one killing quicker.

 

[choknater]

Question: Is the knockback of the fsmash the same during the whole duration of the move? Is there any part of the fsmash, like the end of it, that has less knockback? Just wondering...

 

[momochuu]

Question: Is the knockback of the fsmash the same during the whole duration of the move? Is there any part of the fsmash, like the end of it, that has less knockback? Just wondering...

The very end of the move knocks the victim straight into the air without as much knockback. I've only seen it kill at like 130%.

 

[t!MmY]

Ooo, nice. I'll see if I can find any percentages scribbled on random scraps of paper that I might have lying around.

 

[Asdioh]

That would be weird to have percentages scribbled on random scraps of paper lying around.

And no, if I'm not mistaken, upward angled Fsmash will KO SLOWER than regular.

Up angle does 16%, normal does 15%, down does 14%.

Up sends them higher, making it easier to survive since you're trying to send them horizontally.

Down-angled is actually the best KOer I think, since it sends them at a more horizontal/downward distance, meaning a more preferable trajectory for you.

Try regular/downward-angled Fsmash from the middle of FD without DI, and then try it with DI. My guess is that "with DI" is where the downward-angle makes the biggest difference.

 

[1nconspikuous]

i know the trajectory goes higher on the up-fsmash, i just thought i read somewhere that the up-smash has higher damage and knockback. if i'm wrong, my bad, but i could've sworn i read that somewhere in the kirby boards...

 

[momochuu]

FSmash data is complete. :]

 

[A1lion835]

I was about to respond on the angled fsmashes, but it seems ***idoh (no typo) got to it first...

 

[Pink murder]

Wow this is really helpful ^^
So 90% would be a great time to unleash a fresh Fsmash on most opponents huh. But if your opponent has a good momentum canceler + DI, that would rise another 10-20% wouldn't it :/
Btw, is there a big difference between a completely fresh out of the box Fsmash and one that has been used once already? And how do you...uhh... increase the freshness (?) of a Fsmash? Do you simply not use it for a while, or do you have to use different moves and exhaust them before you Fsmash becomes more powerfull?

 

[momochuu]

-15-25% would be a good estimate.

-There's not a huge difference unless it's like the 3rd time you've used it in a short time.

-Grab pummels, jabs, and tilts are best for refreshing moves. Using different moves makes lesser used moves fresh.

 

[Blue Flash]

IIRC, you have to use different moves. Imo, the best moves to use when FSmash goes stale are Jab and Pummel(especially at higher percentages, where they have a lesser chance of escaping from your grab).

 

[TheFast]

Glad we can now kill Yoshi at 0% I think that makes it a 100-0 Kirby matchup >_>.
..................................T_T I wish. You might wanna fix it.

 

[momochuu]

Whoops, fixed. xD

 

[MK26]

o_0 when did this thread appear?

Are the damages before or after the hit?

And can you order them by percentages as well, possibly in the 2nd post?

 

[momochuu]

o_0 when did this thread appear?

Are the damages before or after the hit?

And can you order them by percentages as well, possibly in the 2nd post?

It's been here. xD

I'll order them by percents, and it's before the hit.

 

[:mad:]

How exactly was this calculated?
And by that, I mean did you hit at the tip, center, or front?

 

[momochuu]

Center hitbox, I believe.

 

[:mad:]

Alright, sounds good. That was bugging me for awhile and I never got around to asking.
I noticed a tippered fsmash on Fox kills at 70% on FD, so I was puzzled.

Good stuff.

 

[~Gonzo~]

i know that the angled Fsmash also decreases the effect of their DI.

 

[Asdioh]

copied from the Metagame Discussion thread, I* figured it would be useful to put somewhere more accessible

*fromundaman

ok, thanks to sasukebowser, I tested what moves can hit Kirby immediately out of Inhale->Copy...it was on wifi, but the testing is still valid, since Kirby's shield is buffered anyway.

Note that all characters can hit Kirby after he uses copy if they have an item in hand, by throwing it down immediately after.

Bowser: Nothing

Captain Falcon: Down B

Diddy Kong: Up B, item

Donkey Kong: Nothing

Falco: Nothing

Fox: Down B

Game and Watch: Down Air

Ganondorf: Down B

Ice Climbers: Down Air

Ike: POSSIBLY Up B, I didn't manage to pull it off, but with some kind of funky B-reversal, it may be possible.

Jigglypuff: Nothing

King Dedede: Nothing

Kirby: Nothing (Stone almost does it though)

Link: Item

Lucario: Down Air

Lucas: First hit of Down Air, Down B (with reversal, very difficult to do), PK Thunder doesn't quite hit, but can have interesting results

Luigi: Nothing

Mario: Nothing

Marth: Nothing

Meta Knight: Down Air

Ness: Nothing

Olimar: Nothing

Peach: Float-cancel to Down Air...very difficult to do, I never pulled it off, but my testing partner did a couple times

Pikachu: Nothing

Pit: Nothing

Pokemon Trainer-
Charizard: Nothing
Ivysaur: Down Air
Squirtle: Up B with funky B-reversal action

ROB: Down Air

Samus: Nothing

Sheik: Down Air

Snake: First hit of Down Air

Sonic: Up B, Down Air

Toon Link: Down Air, item
-Note that Down Air will most likely hit you twice for a lot of damage, if you are at a fairly low percent

Wario: Possibly fully charged Down B (not tested, but a half-charged Fart missed)

Wolf: Nothing

Yoshi: Down B

Zelda: Nothing, Neutral B is close though

Zero Suit Samus: Down Air, item

 

[momochuu]

I'll put that in the archiving post.

 

[momochuu]

This is pretty useful. I'm gonna go 'head and bump it.

 

[A1lion835]

This is pretty useful. I'm gonna go 'head and bump it.

Cool, but what are we researching next? Otherwise, I think that qualifies as "unnecessary bumping". I still hold a grude for that infraction. Believe it!

 

[thrillagorilla]

Its useful info, but whats next on the agenda and who's testing? I can check angled f-smashes and such if you'd like. Also, I listed out hammer KO percentages in my move-set discussion thread. You can move them here if you'd like.

 

[momochuu]

Cool, but what are we researching next? Otherwise, I think that qualifies as "unnecessary bumping". I still hold a grude for that infraction. Believe it!

Actually, when I made this, it was to move all discussion of things like stage tricks, KO percentages, frame date into one, organized, compiled thread but people made threads anyway.

@thrilla- I'll add them. I'll try to figure out what to look into next as well. Feel free to do the angled FSmashes.

Edit: Uhhh... A1. I have never infracted you...lol.

 

[thrillagorilla]

OK, so I did some testing. I'm not done, but I figured that I'd post what I found so far since I wasn't going to test anymore today. All of this was done is practice mode with the CPU set to "control" from the center of Final Destination. I'm aware that fresh moves are more powerful in brawl mode, but since these are estimations and they are easy to keep consistent, I decided to use practice mode anyways. I added in a few other KO moves also since I was already doing it.

Up angled f-smash

Mario: 95%
Luigi: 95%
Peach 91%
Bowser: 106%
DK: 105%
Diddy: 92%
Yoshi: 100%
Wario: 100%
Link: 98%
Zelda: 88%
Sheik: 85%
Ganondorf: 100%
Toon Link: 92%
Samus: 102%
ZSS: 85%
Pit: 93%
IC: 92%
R.O.B.: 100%


Down angled f-smash

Mario: 100%
Luigi: 100%
Peach: 96%
Bowser: 112%
DK: 110%
Diddy: 97%
Yoshi: 106%
Wario: 105%
Link: 103%
Zelda: 93%
Sheik: 90%
Ganondorf: 106%
Toon Link: 97%
Samus: 107%
ZSS: 90%
Pit: 98%
IC: 97%
R.O.B.: 100%


D-smash (Vertical hit-box)

Mario: 113%
Luigi: 112%
Peach 105%
Bowser: 125%
DK: 129%
Diddy: 110%
Yoshi: 119%
Wario: 119%
Link: 121%
Zelda: 103%
Sheik: 102%
Ganondorf: 124%
Toon Link: 109%
Samus: 117%
ZSS: 103%
Pit: 112%
IC: 107%
R.O.B.: 117%


D-smash (Horizontal hit-box)

Mario: 133%
Luigi: 133%
Peach: 128%
Bowser: 148%
DK: 146%
Diddy: 126%
Yoshi: 140%
Wario: 139%
Link: 137%
Zelda: 124%
Sheik: 121
Ganondorf: 140%
Toon Link: 129%
Samus: 141%
ZSS: 120%
Pit: 130%
IC: 129%
R.O.B.: 140%


U-smash

Mario: 101%
Luigi: 101%
Peach 94%
Bowser: 113%
DK: 116%
Diddy: 99%
Yoshi: 107%
Wario: 107%
Link: 109%
Zelda: 92%
Sheik: 92%
Ganondorf: 112%
Toon Link: 98%
Samus: 106%
ZSS: 92%
Pit: 101%
IC: 96%
R.O.B.: 106%


I'm using the up-close hit-box on Kirby's u-smash. It has the best knock-back.

I'll update this post once I've gotten the rest of the percentages in.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Also, smashes and other finishing moves KO quicker if your opponent is still in the attacking animation.

 

[*JuriHan*]

no DI is pretty useless. =/

 

[momochuu]

Well, feel free to look it up and find someone to DI with 39 (?) characters instead of complaining about the provided data.

 

[T-nuts]

Also, smashes and other finishing moves KO quicker if your opponent is still in the attacking animation.

wait...really? so a counterattack is stronger than just a regular attack?

if this is true how did i not know this?

 

[A1lion835]

Also, smashes and other finishing moves KO quicker if your opponent is still in the attacking animation.

All I know is that moves deal more knockback during smash attack charging animations, which I think was brought up in regard to rest in the previous Jiggly vs Kirby discussion.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Well, feel free to look it up and find someone to DI with 39 (?) characters instead of complaining about the provided data.

I've done it with MK's d-smash for the MK boards... it really isn't that hard to do...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230405&highlight=approximate

if you don't want to manually do the DI, put them in training mode, find the kill %, and then multiply it by .95 because in vs mode the characters are slightly lighter.

 

[A1lion835]

These are %'s at which you can footstool someone after a uair (hit with the front of the hitbox) (% are from before the uair hits). It's most likely to be a range of %'s, but I'll just put up a certain % I find and find ranges later. Ranges I have given at this point are not guaranteed (and probably aren't) to be the full ranges of %'s.

Mario - 15%
Luigi - 15%
Peach - 10%
Bowser - 20%
Donkey Kong - 15% (Is able to jump before we can footstool, but doesn't appear to affect anything)
Diddy Kong - 10%
Yoshi - 12%
Wario - 10%
Link - 15%
Zelda - 8%
Sheik - 20% (I think 19 and 18 worked too, not sure about 17...)
Ganondorf - 15%
Toon Link - 10%
Samus - 5%
Zero Suit Samus - 5%
Pit - 12%
Ice Climbers - 10% (on 1 or both Ice climbers, though belay can save the footstooled climber, who is usually nana)
R.O.B. - 10%
Kirby - 10%
Meta Knight - 10, 11 and 12%, though he's not in stun for a small amount of time, which MAY give him enough time to nair or uair.
King Dedede - 15-16% (he has enough time for the mid-air jump sound to appear and for him to jump, but it doesn't appear that he can do anything else)
Olimar - 7%
Fox - 20% (15-17 he has enough time to jump, though I'm not sure he has time to do anything else)
Falco - 18% (hm...what "combo" gives characters 18%?)
Wolf - 17-18%
Captain Falcon - 16% (has enough time to begin a midair jump, but I don't think he can do anything else)
Pikachu - 15%
Squirtle - 14%
Ivysaur - 16%
Charizard - 20%
Lucario - 15%
Jigglypuff - 15%
Marth - 15%, 25%(???) (I know that he can DS up to 12% and I'm not sure whether or not he can always DS)
Ike - 15%
Ness - 15%
Lucas - 15%
G&W - 10-18% (doesn't tumble on 11, 16, 17 and 18; might not tumble on more, need moar testing)
Snake - 25-30%
Sonic - 15-16% (can jump at 15; can't at 16%)

For those interested, I can send them the stage I did this on and give a replay to show my method. I should be able to find out which ones are true combos with more testing.

15% seems awfully common.

Edit: Okay, here's the method:

Uair them with the front of the hitbox (I'm almost certain you have to do it in the air to land the stronger hitbox) while you're high enough not to land on the ground. Then hold towards your opponent and keep spamming jump. That's how I tested this (though I set up a custom stage to make it easier...)

 

[CaliburChamp]

wait...really? so a counterattack is stronger than just a regular attack?

if this is true how did i not know this?

Example: Kirby uses F-smash as Link uses his D-air and misses, since Link is in his attack animation, the F-smash has more knockback power. However, if Link gets hit from an F-smash from standing around and doing nothing, F-smash won't have as much knockback power.

All I know is that moves deal more knockback during smash attack charging animations, which I think was brought up in regard to rest in the previous Jiggly vs Kirby discussion.

Yes, with smashes, and also with other moves like tilts, and specials, jabs, etc. If you get hit while your charging a smash you'll fly back farther than when you use a tilt, jab, etc.

 

[momochuu]

I didn't know there was a counter system in this game. >_> Do you have a thread or something for reference? That'd be great.

 

[A1lion835]

I didn't know there was a counter system in this game. >_> Do you have a thread or something for reference? That'd be great.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032&page=127 Go there and ctrl+f for "Kirby's f-smash is insanely good OMG I hate that move." *forgets how to lead into individual posts and the 2 ways he tried didn't work...*

There's a post by Veril saying rest deals more damage if it hits during our fsmash animation, a post by Asdioh saying that he's never heard of it, and I think it dies away after that. (Yea, my memory is THAT good.)

Why did CaliburChamp and Bunny ignore my uair research D: