Social Kirby & The Amazing Cats

[KingDaiGurren]

So I've entertained myself a bit by reading through this whole thread... How are you all?

Since this thread has the word "cats" in its title, does that mean that I may post pictures of my cat here?

Spoiler

I'll do it anyway.

i like how you didn't wait for a response from anyone to post the picture of your cat

 

[Ansou]

i like how you didn't wait for a response from anyone to post the picture of your cat

I'm sorry! But it was impossible not, he was simply too cute! I don't really know what he was doing on those books but... cats you know.

 

[Nudisto Shiza]

Hi peoples, just wanted to say hi. I'm new to smash but so far love playing kirby.

 

[the king of murder]

Strawberry Cake got stolen?

^^Found this in Deviantart. So much win.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Can anybody help me find the post that had the list of when up tilt combos into dair on every character. I cant remember where it was posted and im about to start working on a kirby project that i need that list for.

 

[MikeKirby]

Can anybody help me find the post that had the list of when up tilt combos into dair on every character. I cant remember where it was posted and im about to start working on a kirby project that i need that list for.

This is what @SapphSabre777 has accumulated.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...vsChM5Bh-OyYpPyFvKLC7yc/edit?usp=docslist_api

However, he did point out that it's not entirely accurate and I could confirm because I had to correct the starting percents for Fox. Also, Sheik's starting percent is 47% not 51%. I haven't run through the chart to correct it with my own data, but it's a good place to start.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Thanks a lot mike. Ive been getting stagnant qith kirby lately but watch that set of you and dehf really reignited a lot of my fire for the character, so im going to try to see what i can do in terms of optimizing the low percent combos we have. Its frustrating because there a different combo for every character, and they all change based on the starter that you hit with, but therws a lot of damage to squeeze out of this character and he needs all the help he can get.

For example, i turned that fox combo i saw you do from 0-63 to 0-93 with a 1/3rd chance of killing outright and becoming a zero to death

 

[Ansou]

Thanks a lot mike. Ive been getting stagnant qith kirby lately but watch that set of you and dehf really reignited a lot of my fire for the character, so im going to try to see what i can do in terms of optimizing the low percent combos we have. Its frustrating because there a different combo for every character, and they all change based on the starter that you hit with, but therws a lot of damage to squeeze out of this character and he needs all the help he can get.

For example, i turned that fox combo i saw you do from 0-63 to 0-93 with a 1/3rd chance of killing outright and becoming a zero to death

You need to share this with us. Like really! O_o

 

[Mega-Spider]

Hi peoples, just wanted to say hi. I'm new to smash but so far love playing kirby.

Glad to know you're having fun with the pink puffball. Kirby needs some more players, because he's a pretty good character, just overlooked sadly.
Welcome to the Smash 4 Kirby section!

 

[MikeKirby]

Thanks a lot mike. Ive been getting stagnant qith kirby lately but watch that set of you and dehf really reignited a lot of my fire for the character, so im going to try to see what i can do in terms of optimizing the low percent combos we have. Its frustrating because there a different combo for every character, and they all change based on the starter that you hit with, but therws a lot of damage to squeeze out of this character and he needs all the help he can get.

For example, i turned that fox combo i saw you do from 0-63 to 0-93 with a 1/3rd chance of killing outright and becoming a zero to death

0-74%

The only way I can see that going that far is if you u-tilt>d-air twice or f-throw>d-air. The former requires Fox not to hold shield and the latter requires him to not DI or DI in. I'm assuming you then d-tilt into f-smash. It can work, though.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

0-74%

The only way I can see that going that far is if you u-tilt>d-air twice or f-throw>d-air. The former requires Fox not to hold shield and the latter requires him to not DI or DI in. I'm assuming you then d-tilt into f-smash. It can work, though. (ohwell)

Mike, after this recent patch....why have more people started seeing Kirby as a trash/bad character?
At first a good chunk of us thought of him as mid tier most likely, and that he had some good things going for him, but now......it's just different. Do you think Kirby has gotten worse or something? Or are people seriously overreacting over this patch or whatever.

 

[MikeKirby]

I don't know. People really need to stop crying and play more. >____>

I've barely felt any difference. Then again, I powershield-punish a lot.

 

[t!MmY]

At first a good chunk of us thought of him as mid tier most likely, and that he had some good things going for him, but now......it's just different. Do you think Kirby has gotten worse or something? Or are people seriously overreacting over this patch or whatever.

As someone who has played Kirby extensively in Melee, any Kirby that isn't Melee Kirby is pretty god-like. XD
I remember Kirby being much better in the Best Buy demo, but I think he got downgraded before the game launched. The updates since then have helped, but I feel like they haven't quite brought Kirby back up to snuff.

Maybe it's because all the 'bad' characters are getting better patch changes than Kirby, so relatively he feels 'worse' even though he's slightly better than where he was originally? I know a lot of Kirby players probably thought this on some level when Charizard got his Up Throw buff. :\

 

[Nudisto Shiza]

Glad to know you're having fun with the pink puffball. Kirby needs some more players, because he's a pretty good character, just overlooked sadly.
Welcome to the Smash 4 Kirby section!

Thanks for the warm welcome, hopefully more people see the glory of kirby

 

[DblCrest]

I watched Abadango's metaknight against Triple R and I was wondering was Triple R not DIing the Dash attack and UPair strings correctly? The match up can't be THAT one sided right?

Honestly I think Kirby can only get better now with future patch changes. Currently I think everyone sees him as underwhelming compared to the other characters due to his speed and range. If Nairo can play Dr Mario,Zelda or even Robin at high level then I think we're ok.

 

[Bribery]

Mike, after this recent patch....why have more people started seeing Kirby as a trash/bad character?
At first a good chunk of us thought of him as mid tier most likely, and that he had some good things going for him, but now......it's just different. Do you think Kirby has gotten worse or something? Or are people seriously overreacting over this patch or whatever.

I think a lot of people (myself included) overreacted to the shield changes. However, I don't think that's the only reason opinions of Kirby have changed.

Keep in mind that things change over time as the metagame develops. In Melee, Sheik was considered the best character for nearly 4 years before people realized that Fox was the best in the game. We're a year into SSB4. Several nationals have passed and Kirby is nowhere to be seen in the top 32 of almost all of them. I wish I could say that Kirby has a lot of hidden, untapped potential...but lets be real, Kirby isn't some deeply complex character like Peach, Greninja, or Ryu. He's really straightforward, so unless he gets significantly buffed, I doubt opinions of Kirby are going to become more positive.

Kirby did receive several buffs but none of them actually addressed any of his core flaws. Previously "bad" characters like Donkey Kong, Ike, and Robin received important buffs that allowed them to actually be a threat at a national level. Kirby's buffs were more conservative. They just made some useless moves a bit more useful.

If customs were the standard then I think Kirby would be viewed more positively. Upper Cutter improves him substantially and he feels really incomplete without it imo.

 

[Phan7om]

When I look at the way Kirby is designed, and how some of his moves work, I just think how could they have thought this was okay lmao? I honestly think if Kirby isnt buffed hard eventually he was designed not to be a 1on1 character, according to whoever is in charge of balance. Which wouldnt surprise me.

Edit: And I agree with Bribery when he says

I wish I could say that Kirby has a lot of hidden, untapped potential...but lets be real, Kirby isn't some deeply complex character like Peach, Greninja, or Ryu.

I see too many people say Kirby has like this deep untapped potential that no one is exploring... and deep down I just want to say "lol no, where?". I would argue that most if not all his true combos have been found, anything else is a string/read/50-50. Most of Kirby's evolution, aside from patches, will be from tactics, such as using SHFF Uair/Dtilt/Utilts for frame traps or optimizing Kirby's ledgedash thing (if he can even do it), or gimmicks such as Dtilt crouching or grab release Dtilt and stuff. Both of which arent significant enough to make up for his weaknesses, and wont make matchups that much better. I just wish Kirby could get some love instead of feeling like you're pressing the 'I could do better' button when you pick him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Mike, im prety sure the auto connect angles on dair make it some that if you move in the air correctly it doesnt really matrwr where they di, cus your small movements while the dair hits gives you control of the minute spacing that you need to make the follow ups work right.

I think theres a lot of very small things that kirby players arent optimizing and utilizing to the full.
For example at 0 against shiek, shff fair to pp up tilt is a true combo and gives us another lead in to a free 60 percent on shiek.
Stuff like nair combos into pp up tilt, thats a thing i dont see anybody do
Utilizing grounded down b stone as a way to punish certain moves or screw over characters with poor horizontal recoveries.
Utilizing copy powers as well or better then original users do. Falco lasers and luigi firebals and mario fireballs are huge game changers in those matchups and people probably arent maximizing their usefulness.

How to hit people offstage. Certain characterz are really weird to gimp but kirby is still one of the most dangerous characters to have to recover against and we still let people recover for free a lot of the time.

Its not always about combos, sometimes is about optimizing your decisions based on situational awareness

You can know all the combos and still not be doing wverything the character is capable of.

Like i still think kirby is bad and probably loses badly to like, half the top tier characters. But at the same time, he has certain traits which help him either go even with pr even beat some of the best characters in the game. Just beacuse hes a bad character doesnt mean he doesnt still hard counter captain falcon lol

 

[DblCrest]

Phan7om
I'd have to agree I wouldn't be surprised if Kirby is meant to be more of a doubles partner or Free For All fighter then.
With how Stone and hammer are.

I recall some things Sakurai said in one of his interviews (or was it tweets) about how they consider balance patches which include everyday Free For All's. He said if Stone or hammer was too safe/good/powerful then it would turn Kirby into a bit of a noobkiller with just destroying new players .

 

[Ansou]

Mike, im prety sure the auto connect angles on dair make it some that if you move in the air correctly it doesnt really matrwr where they di, cus your small movements while the dair hits gives you control of the minute spacing that you need to make the follow ups work right.

I think theres a lot of very small things that kirby players arent optimizing and utilizing to the full.
For example at 0 against shiek, shff fair to pp up tilt is a true combo and gives us another lead in to a free 60 percent on shiek.
Stuff like nair combos into pp up tilt, thats a thing i dont see anybody do
Utilizing grounded down b stone as a way to punish certain moves or screw over characters with poor horizontal recoveries.
Utilizing copy powers as well or better then original users do. Falco lasers and luigi firebals and mario fireballs are huge game changers in those matchups and people probably arent maximizing their usefulness.

How to hit people offstage. Certain characterz are really weird to gimp but kirby is still one of the most dangerous characters to have to recover against and we still let people recover for free a lot of the time.

Its not always about combos, sometimes is about optimizing your decisions based on situational awareness

You can know all the combos and still not be doing wverything the character is capable of.

Like i still think kirby is bad and probably loses badly to like, half the top tier characters. But at the same time, he has certain traits which help him either go even with pr even beat some of the best characters in the game. Just beacuse hes a bad character doesnt mean he doesnt still hard counter captain falcon lol

Yeah... Like a Sheik should never ever be able to recover low against a Kirby and yet I see it happening. Things like SHFF F-Air is a bit unsafe and that might be why people don't really do it. Also, I don't think most players have optimized their Perfect Pivot game, but at least I am working on implementing it into my gameplay right now.0

Now as we all know, Kirby's neutral game is somewhat lacking (much due to his overall mobility) and that will always be a flaw of his. But that's just why it's important to optimize his advantage game etc.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Well I mostly think that if there were flaws that were possible to fix, it's at least giving him a kill throw.
Think about it
Mobility
Range
Lightness
And some other weaknesses of his can't really be fixed, as if sakurai would do that.
The closest thing that really can be fixed is a kill throw at least.

 

[TimG57867]

TBH, I think Kirby could easily be a solid singles contender if he just got quicker and/or stronger aerials, a reliable smash attack or two, a strong Up Throw, and an Up B that came out frame 3-8 with more range. The first 3 are perfectly plausible buffs given what other characters got. Final Cutter getting fixed isn't as likely but, this would vastly improve Kirby's neutral and matchup spread. And since Inhale and Hammer Flip have had their frame data adjusted, I wouldn't call it completely unlikely.


Also I doubt they wouldn't buff Kirby because they wanted him be better in free for alls. I mean look how combo oriented his moveset is. How are you supposed to get off tight strings and combos when you're in constant risk of getting sucker punched by an enemy your not focusing? Not to mention Kirby's light, so he'll die early if he takes too many attacks which is often unavoidable in a free for all, especially if it has items. I think Kirby's meant to be more balanced between the two formats as he has flaws and strengths that affect his performance in both. I mean if they only cared about his free for all performance, why would they give him back his Gonzo Combo? I think what's really happening is that they're just feeling around and seeing which parts of his moveset would help him most if buffed. I mean didn't get good with just 1 patch. I agree that Kirby will need to be buffed for his meta to advance, but I don't think buffs that actually address his core problems are out of the question. Worthwhile buffs could come at anytime really. I mean was obviously one of the worst characters when the game came out, but didn't get any meaningful buffs until 1.10. I feel that as long as the community doesn't feel that Kirby is a relevant threat (and they don't, thank goodness), he can only go up from here as far as direct adjustments are concerned. (The shield patch was indirect and will probably be factored in with the next update).

 

[da K.I.D.]

Down throw shoukd have like... reverse knockback growth. Like it gets less and less knockback at higher percents to where it starts comboing into aerials at like 120

 

[Asdioh]

I can see the value of discussing stuff that should be mastered to push Kirby to higher levels.

I think theres a lot of very small things that kirby players arent optimizing and utilizing to the full.
For example at 0 against shiek, shff fair to pp up tilt is a true combo and gives us another lead in to a free 60 percent on shiek.
Stuff like nair combos into pp up tilt, thats a thing i dont see anybody do
Utilizing grounded down b stone as a way to punish certain moves or screw over characters with poor horizontal recoveries.
Utilizing copy powers as well or better then original users do. Falco lasers and luigi firebals and mario fireballs are huge game changers in those matchups and people probably arent maximizing their usefulness.

How to hit people offstage. Certain characterz are really weird to gimp but kirby is still one of the most dangerous characters to have to recover against and we still let people recover for free a lot of the time.

Its not always about combos, sometimes is about optimizing your decisions based on situational awareness

You can know all the combos and still not be doing wverything the character is capable of.

Like, I agree with this, especially the bolded. It sucks, but practicing pivot uptilt and the like can make conversions that much stronger. Grounded Stone is frame 11, only 1 frame slower than Dsmash. Moves that combo into Dsmash, such as Dair, can feasibly combo into Stone instead, which sends opponents at an amazing downward angle if they're near the ledge. Good for leading up into the next section, which is edgeguarding! Kirby obviously has good moves for edgeguarding, in Bair, Fair, Dair, even Inhale and Stone situationally. He also has the 5 jumps that other characters don't have access to. Frequently you'll see someone go for an edgeguard, but the opponent stalls as long as possible before using their recovery, so the edgeguarder has to go back to the stage because they ran out of jumps. Kirby can out-wait most opponents that try to wait him out, so that should be a decent advantage. Other times, Kirby goes for an edgeguard, but people simply airdodge through it. Is Kirby's airspeed so slow that he can't bait airdodges and punish? I know it won't work on, say, Yoshi, because his airspeed is so amazing, but surely it can work on most others? You see Captain Falcons do stuff like this all the time http://oddshot.tv/shot/showdownsmash-2015103053455223 can't Kirby do cool stuff like that?
Side note, I was watching MikeKirby's set against DKWill recently https://youtu.be/dt8-tboIRLQ and I don't know if I'm crazy, but there were a lot of times that I desperately wanted him to use Stone to edgeguard, because Will would wait as long as possible to UpB, so the timing should have been reasonably easy and safe, but he never went for it. Am I crazy for thinking it most likely would have worked?

Like i still think kirby is bad and probably loses badly to like, half the top tier characters. But at the same time, he has certain traits which help him either go even with pr even beat some of the best characters in the game. Just beacuse hes a bad character doesnt mean he doesnt still hard counter captain falcon lol

I don't necessarily agree with this though, unless you're exaggerating. To use the glorious MikeKirby in another example:
https://youtu.be/JvUB2fx5C4k?t=56 Kirby does a nasty 0-74% combo on Fox, but it's not too long before Fox catches back up in percentage, and even gets the first kill. This is the kind of thing that happens to Kirby all the time. It's the same concept, whether it's against Sheik, Falcon, Fox, or others. Kirby has highly damaging combos that basically turn the game into Single Player mode for a little while, but the other characters have more speed and better neutrals, and can usually safely return the damage and even things up. Like, Fox can't uptilt us a million times, but his uptilt does twice as much damage, and can still combo into itself/other moves for a little while, so it gets pretty close in terms of damage, especially since his speed allows him to get into good positions more easily and more frequently.

Anyway, my point is that we should definitely work to optimize the damage of our combos, but also try to find ways to end stocks, and not lose our own stocks, y'know what I mean? Also, I still think Nair is an amazing, and underused tool for covering various ledge options.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

Anyway, my point is that we should definitely work to optimize the damage of our combos, but also try to find ways to end stocks, and not lose our own stocks, y'know what I mean? Also, I still think Nair is an amazing, and underused tool for covering various ledge options.

I strongly agree, i feel like the best way for kirby to get stocks off is to work the opponent off stage. that feels a bit more guranteed than offstage. we wouldn't have to worry about shield stun or anything like that and with our command grab and multi jumps pineappling our opponent underneath the stage feels like it could be a viable option. I mean i feel like we should just use inhale a bit more.

Edit: Side bar is wispy's gust strong enough to create uthrow or bthrow suicides on dreamland? I'm pretty sure that i've seen ROB players do it before, is it possible that it could be done with kirby?

 

[WootSnorlax]

Kirby's strongest point is indeed at the ledge. Edgeguarding should be cake easy for Kirby to do and an experienced player should be able to use his moves to the fullest off stage.

At least that's what I used to believe.

Even with such amazing gimp potential and offstage play some recovery moves in this game are straight on ridiculous. Take for example Mario or Doc's recovery. They both have a stupid big hitbox on his fist that makes coming at him from the air dangerous and you risk getting stage spiked. They also have intangibility on a few of the early frames of the move. Sonic literally has intangibility almost halfway up his recovery and can act out of it. GnW has almost the same dilemma, but worse because we could get stage spiked from it. We don't even have to talk about Sheik's recovery....

With such poor airspeed we can't even create frame traps off stage that well. Our nair last a million years, as well as our dair. Fair also takes a while. So all we are left with is bair and uair. Clearly you wouldn't want to use uair to edgeguard, so our only tool to create frame traps is bair. Even then some characters just fly away from us so fast that the situation never arises.

Also if we mess up our edgeguard it's really easy to edgeguard Kirby back. Final cutter is a move without much horizontal distance and is best used to recover vertically. The problem is though, that we don't snap to the ledge like most other characters. Normally that wouldn't be too big of a deal, but those who do snap to the ledge and get hit within the 2 frames of vulnerability get their double jump back. We don't even get that small saving grace so we have to work with our jumps very sparingly against a good player. There's also the problem that we can easily get hit out of the starting animation of Final Cutter because, unlike Ike's, we don't have super armor on startup.

Kirby's life is hard x.x

 

[TimG57867]

Kirby's strongest point is indeed at the ledge. Edgeguarding should be cake easy for Kirby to do and an experienced player should be able to use his moves to the fullest off stage.

At least that's what I used to believe.

Even with such amazing gimp potential and offstage play some recovery moves in this game are straight on ridiculous. Take for example Mario or Doc's recovery. They both have a stupid big hitbox on his fist that makes coming at him from the air dangerous and you risk getting stage spiked. They also have intangibility on a few of the early frames of the move. Sonic literally has intangibility almost halfway up his recovery and can act out of it. GnW has almost the same dilemma, but worse because we could get stage spiked from it. We don't even have to talk about Sheik's recovery....

With such poor airspeed we can't even create frame traps off stage that well. Our nair last a million years, as well as our dair. Fair also takes a while. So all we are left with is bair and uair. Clearly you wouldn't want to use uair to edgeguard, so our only tool to create frame traps is bair. Even then some characters just fly away from us so fast that the situation never arises.

Also if we mess up our edgeguard it's really easy to edgeguard Kirby back. Final cutter is a move without much horizontal distance and is best used to recover vertically. The problem is though, that we don't snap to the ledge like most other characters. Normally that wouldn't be too big of a deal, but those who do snap to the ledge and get hit within the 2 frames of vulnerability get their double jump back. We don't even get that small saving grace so we have to work with our jumps very sparingly against a good player. There's also the problem that we can easily get hit out of the starting animation of Final Cutter because, unlike Ike's, we don't have super armor on startup.

Kirby's life is hard x.x

This is all the more reason why Kirby needs his aerial frame data boosted. When you have poor air speed and small range, there's no reason why should have 3 aerials that start frame 10, and one that starts frame 18. I can't count how many gimps I could have gotten if D-Air didn't take so long to come out. If it came out frame 10-12, it'd insanely better. Same goes for F-Air and N-Air. If they came out frame 5 and 3 respectively with N-Air having less endlag, Kirby would have a much easier time intercepting recoveries. It just puzzles me why they would nerf Kirby's air speed and hitboxes, yet leave his aerial frame data the same.

 

[TimG57867]

Mark your calenders folks! Nintendo Direct for Nov 12th announced!

http://smashboards.com/threads/nintendo-direct-announced.423080/

Hopefully it'll have news of the next Smash Bros update!

 

[Agent Emerald]

"Expect lots of Amiibo information!"

Mii fighter 3-pack?

 

[Vinylic.]

Speaking of amiibo, I heard Kirby is becoming a rarity nowadays? I haven't been able to check up on that.

Also, I've been going to more tournaments this week for the grind. The event on monday was at a bar, but the TO never came and it just turned into a smashfest instead. The other event yesterday started way too late and I didn't really want to attend. Despite that, I guess I'm raising money for apex.

It's either back to florida, or head to Shots Fired 2 next.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Speaking of amiibo, I heard Kirby is becoming a rarity nowadays? I haven't been able to check up on that.

Also, I've been going to more tournaments this week for the grind. The event on monday was at a bar, but the TO never came and it just turned into a smashfest instead. The other event yesterday started way too late and I didn't really want to attend. Despite that, I guess I'm raising money for apex.

It's either back to florida, or head to Shots Fired 2 next.

Yeah, Kirby is sopposed to be rare, Good thing I have him.

 

[Agent Emerald]

Speaking of amiibo, I heard Kirby is becoming a rarity nowadays? I haven't been able to check up on that.

That sucks. But on the bright side, Amazon still has them at reasonable prices.

 

[TimG57867]

Kirby, like Samus, used to be a common amiibo. But just like Samus, his store presence started to peter out over time as new waves came in and other characters were restocked while he was not. Based off the last few times I was in Gamestop (which was a few months ago) Target, Best Buy, etc., your chances of finding him in a store are or in new condition for shipment from online retailers at SRP are pretty slim at the moment. So glad I got him while he was still easy to come by. I missed Meta Knight and King Dedede unfortunatley...

Also, I wouldn't say Amazon has him at reasonable price. The main amiibo entry from Amazon themselves currently has a him at like $36 for USA lol. The Japanse import prices aren't too bad though.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

This is an appreciation post for the fact that kirby will get to use Cloud's biga** sword in battle
and get another anime haircut. it's kawaii af guise.

 

[Wintermelon43]

This is an appreciation post for the fact that kirby will get to use Cloud's biga** sword in battle
and get another anime haircut. it's kawaii af guise.

Haircut? You mean hair addition?

 

[KingDaiGurren]

Haircut? You mean hair addition?

KIRBY HAS LUSCIOUS CURLY LOCKS SO INDEEED A HAIRCUT

 

[Ansou]

Whether he actually cut his hair or not, we know one thing for sure: he will be super adorable as Cloud Kirby!

 

[Wintermelon43]

I never thought Kirby would turn into gas and start raining water above the stage

^Expect a lot of puns like that on the entire smash 4 area on Smashboards, not just from me but from everyone.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Any good SSB4 Kirby videos to watch, of tournament play?

 

[TimG57867]

Funny how there's so much talk of Kirby getting a haircut, considering he was actually GOING to have hair in a canceled game called Kid Kirby: