Kirby's Toy Box - Kirby Moveset/AT/Competitive Discussion

[Uffe]

Yeah, this is already known.

Alright. Well, I don't use Kirby, so I just found out and didn't see it mentioned on the first page or anywhere else within this thread. I thought it was cool. I may end up picking up Kirby. Again.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I feel like we should start using this thread as a discussion instead of t1mMy's "Kirby's Epic Guide". It's certainly easier for new players to come here and find out stuff, rather than go to a guide. His guide should rather be used for discussing... guide-y stuffs.

 

[Salad Bowl]

I feel like we should start using this thread as a discussion instead of t1mMy's "Kirby's Epic Guide". It's certainly easier for new players to come here and find out stuff, rather than go to a guide. His guide should rather be used for discussing... guide-y stuffs.

That's a great idea. I'm all for it

 

[Unknownkid]

So I was checking the frame data (http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8) on Hammer Flip to find any hidden potential that might be missed and discover that Kirby's Move and Custom Moves have not been listed. After a fews hours and with the help of this Moveset General Information, I was able to decipher almost every skills. Before I sent it to Thinkamen and the Frame Data Gang, I want you guys to check if the names are associated properly with the frame data. The moves bolded means the ones I am absolutely certain about. Thank you!

Also, I got GOOD NEWS. GIANT HAMMER FULL CHARGE SWING IS UNBLOCKABLE! I just tested it with CPU Level 9 Little Mac's Counter.

unknown substate 0x212 (Inhale)
Frame 0- 1: Grab
Frame 0- 1: 0% 100f/10w 160° 0.0-Hitlag 0.0-SDI

unknown substate 0x213 (Ice Breath)
Frame 0- 1: 6% 50b/50g (500g*) 40° 1.2-SDI Ice
Frame 0- 1: 2.4% 100f/10w 60° 0.7-Hitlag 1.2-SDI Ice
Frame 0- 1: 2.4% 10b/100g (640g*) 40° 0.7-Hitlag 1.2-SDI Ice
Frame 0- 1: 1.2% 100f/10w 60° 0.7-Hitlag 1.2-SDI Ice

unknown substate 0x214 (Jumping Inhale)
Frame 0- 1: Grab

unknown substate 0x21a
unknown substate 0x21c
unknown substate 0x21e
unknown substate 0x220


unknown substate 0x232 (Inhale – Star Shot)
Frame 0- 1: 6% 0b/0g (0g*) 361°

unknown substate 0x234 (Jumping Inhale – Star Shot)
Frame 0- 1: 5% 0b/0g (0g*) 361°

unknown substate 0x25e
unknown substate 0x260

unknown substate 0x282 (Inhale – Swallow)
Frame 0- 1: 10% 0b/0g (0g*) 361°

unknown substate 0x284 (Jumping Inhale – Swallow)
Frame 0- 1: 8% 0b/0g (0g*) 361°

unknown substate 0x288 [All of these are Giant Hammer I think]
Begins super armor on real frame 45
unknown substate 0x294
Begins super armor on real frame 0
unknown substate 0x298
Begins super armor on real frame 0
unknown substate 0x29c
Begins super armor on real frame 0
unknown substate 0x2a0
Begins super armor on real frame 0
unknown substate 0x2a4
Begins super armor on real frame 0
unknown substate 0x2a8
Begins super armor on real frame 0
unknown substate 0x2ac
Begins super armor on real frame 0
unknown substate 0x2b0
Begins super armor on real frame 0

unknown substate 0x2ba (Uncharged Hammer Flip)
Frame 11-11: 19% 60b/70g (1610g*) 53° 1.2-Hitlag

unknown substate 0x2bb (Hammer Bash)
Frame 11-11: 21% 55b/70g (1750g*) 75° 1.2-Hitlag
Frame 11-11: 18% 55b/70g (1540g*) 75° 1.2-Hitlag

unknown substate 0x2bc (Uncharged Giant Hammer)
Frame 11-12: 22% 60b/70g (1820g*) 53° 1.5-Hitlag

unknown substate 0x2be (Aerial Uncharged Hammer Flip)
Frame 11-11: 15% 60b/70g (1330g*) 55°

unknown substate 0x2bf (Aerial Hammer Bash)
Frame 11-11: 4% 100f/20w 75°
Frame 25-25: 17% 55b/70g (1470g*) 75°
Frame 25-25: 15% 55b/70g (1330g*) 75°

unknown substate 0x2c2 (Fully Charged Hammer Flip)
Frame 11-11: 35% 60b/70g (2730g*) 361° 1.5-Hitlag Fire
Begins super armor on real frame 5
Ends super armor on real frame 14

unknown substate 0x2c4 (Fully Charged Giant Hammer)
Frame 11-13: 40% 60b/70g (3080g*) 361° 1.5-Hitlag Fire Unblockable

unknown substate 0x2c6 (Aerial Fully Charged Hammer Flip)
Frame 11-11: 27% 60b/70g (2170g*) 45° Fire


unknown substate 0x2c8 (Aerial Fully Charged Giant Hammer)
Frame 11-13: 32% 60b/70g (2520g*) 45° Fire Unblockable

unknown substate 0x2ce (Wave Cutter ?)
Frame 1- 2: 5% 100f/117w 85° 1.3-SDI Slash
Frame 1- 2: 5% 100f/117w 93° 1.3-SDI Slash
Frame 1- 2: 5% 100f/102w 90° 1.3-SDI Slash
Frame 1- 2: 5% 100f/102w 93° 1.3-SDI Slash
Frame 19-27: 2% 100f/100w 275° Slash
Frame 28-29: 2% 30b/180g (1080g*) 361° Slash


unknown substate 0x2d0 (Upper Cutter)
Frame 2- 3: 10% 45b/100g (1400g*) 60° Slash
Frame 4-11: 10% 45b/100g (1400g*) 70° Slash
Frame 12-13: 10% 45b/100g (1400g*) 80° Slash
Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 4

unknown substate 0x2d7 (No clue)
Frame 0- 1: 5% 70b/100g (900g*) 361°

unknown substate 0x2ea (Stone)
Frame 0- 1: 14% 40b/40g (720g*) 0° Ground-Target-Only

unknown substate 0x2eb (Grounded Stone – Near the opponent)
Frame 0- 1: 6% 40b/40g (400g*) 0° Ground-Target-Only

unknown substate 0x2ee (Aerial Stone)
Frame 0- 1: 18% 65b/70g (1540g*) 70° 0.7-Hitlag


unknown substate 0x2ef (Grounded Stone)
Frame 0- 1: 12% 65b/80g (1280g*) 70° 0.6-Hitlag Bury Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 0- 1: 10% 50b/80g (1120g*) 70° 0.6-Hitlag Bury Ground-Target-Only

unknown substate 0x2f0 (Meteor Stone)
Frame 0-11: 12% 60b/100g (1600g*) 270° 0.7-Hitlag
Frame 12-21: 10% 50b/100g (1400g*) 270° 0.7-Hitlag
Frame 22-23: 8% 40b/100g (1200g*) 270° 0.7-Hitlag


unknown substate 0x2fa (Ultra Sword)
Frame 17-19: 3% 100f/30w 22° 0.0-Hitlag 0.0-SDI Stun Unblockable
Frame 54-57: 5% 70b/0g (0g*) 361° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable


unknown substate 0x2fb (Ultra Sword)
Frame 21-21: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 35° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 21-21: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 145° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 35-36: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 35° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 35-36: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 145° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 48-48: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 35° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 48-48: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 145° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 59-59: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 35° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 59-59: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 145° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 71-72: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 35° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 71-72: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 145° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 83-84: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 35° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 83-84: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 145° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 97-98: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 35° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 97-98: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 145° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 109-109: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 35° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 109-109: 2% 20b/100g (600g*) 145° 0.5-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
Frame 173-178: 16% 75b/100g (2000g*) 45° 0.5-Hitlag 1.3-SDI Slash Unblockable

 

[Aunt Jemima]

-snip-

Woo, go UnknownKid! That's some awesome stuff you got, thanks! Will definitely be using this.

Anyways, I'd like to say this to anybody who actually decides to visit this thread:

This thread will be getting a major overhaul, with new pictures, re-written information, better statistics, etc. so that it will help better. Along with that, after this thread is updated, it is to become the place for discussion of Kirby in Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. Whether it be general tips to advanced techniques, all discussion about Kirby in the competitive scene will be placed here.

If anybody would like to help me, first I need a collection of any and all advanced techniques Kirby has!

 

[Unknownkid]

No problem, Reserved. Anything I can do to contribute to the community.

 

[Unknownkid]

Looks like someone have been holding out valuable information on us... Don't worry! The kid has been lurking and will do the favor for you haha! Anyways, AMAZING FIND!

Well, I thought this was interesting. Using Kirby's customs, specifically Hammer Bash (which is reminiscent of Brawl's Hammer), Kirby can gain a TREMENDOUS boost in jump height. For those who don't know, Kirby's Hammer Bash boosts any momentum upwards or downwards when used in the air. This was also in Brawl, although I believe it was to a lesser extent than Hammer Bash. I can't remember due to not playing Brawl in quite some time (around a year?).

Anyways, let's get on with it. Not posting the .gifs directly to prevent any lag that could pop up for some users.

Here is Kirby's default jump height, with the aid of Upper Cutter (goes significantly higher than Final Cutter). http://i.imgur.com/96yZol8.gifv

Now, here is Kirby's jump height with the aid of Hammer Bash and Upper Cutter (although I believe I failed the last Hammer Bash, which carries momentum downwards). http://i.imgur.com/Grmnmwm.gifv

As you can see, with all of Kirby's jumps, he barely reaches the top platform - add in Upper Cutter, and he makes it to the top boundaries for a split second. Then, look at the increase with Hammer Bash. Just TWO of Kirby's Hammer Bash jumps (one grounded and one mid-air) equal the same height as all of his jumps regularly. Add in the fact that using Hammer Bash with the rest of his jumps brings him higher than Upper Cutter did.

I wanted to look into this even more, so I tested it against the presumed highest jumper (I'm not sure who it is not with the newcomers), Falco. Here's Falco's default jump height, http://i.imgur.com/OqNd0EC.gif, and here's two of Kirby's jumps (equaling the regular amount of character jumps) assisted with Hammer Bash, http://i.imgur.com/gISc629.gif. As seen, Kirby is barely short of the highest jump height in the game.

Now, to test this even FURTHER, I decided to do a little "recovery ranking".

Using the bottom platform seen in this picture (right side of the rock w/ spring), I tested some of the best recoveries in the game to see who could go from that bottom platform to the yellow bridge. If timed correctly, Kirby just barely makes it on top of the bridge. Along with Hammer Bash Kirby, the only other character in the game who was capable of getting from that platform to the bridge is, obviously, Villager. Characters I thought could make it up, such as Pit/Pittoo and Olimar (without Pikmin) surprisingly could NOT make it. As another quick test, I used the same method with Jump Monado Kirby. Instead of using the platform, I fell down to the blast zone (so no grounded jump), and managed to make it all the way to the top and above the blast zone.

Now, of course, this is using Custom Moves. With different customs, almost every character has a custom recovery that goes higher than the default. Now, the real question is should that character be using that custom in the first place? Going from the "Standard Custom Project", most characters opt to use other custom specials. Whereas, for Kirby, there's absolutely no reason not to use Upper Cutter, and little reason not to use Hammer Bash. Upper Cutter goes higher than Final Cutter, latches on to the ledge, is harder to intercept due to it's speed, can kill off the top similar to Meta Knight's up special at relatively low percents (around 80 to 100% depending on the character), easily stage spikes opponents who try to edgeguard Kirby, can be used to finish off combos/strings in the air, and is a relatively safe OoS option at higher percents.

Hammer Bash, overall, will see more use than the other variants mainly due to the fact that it isn't crap. Hammer Flip can only be used as a bait and punish option, which will most likely not work in competitive play, leaving Kirby wide open for a smash attack. Giant Hammer is a bit more useful, though. Giant Hammer has Super Armor while charging the move, has an incredibly large, disjointed hitbox, comes out relatively fast (fully charged) to intercept grabs, and kills basically every character in the game at 5~10% with full charge. Along with that, it's unblockable, so counters and shields won't work against it. Kirby can instantly kill Marth and Lucina from a shield break when they're only at 8% (Jumping Inhale) from the middle of Battlefield, which gives it a bit more use.

As apparent, the boosted Hammer Flip jumps barely give Kirby any horizontal momentum, and more so focus on vertically boosting his recovery. The solution to this is simple. Jumping Inhale, which is similar to Upper Cutter in having no reason to not replace default Inhale, carries Kirby from every vertical blast zone right next to the ledge, to safely Upper Cutter back onto the ledge, or quickly jump towards it with any remaining jumps.

Using all these recovery options, Kirby seemingly has a bunch of mix-ups for recovering. Kirby can essentially double the height of any jump with Hammer Bash, recover from any blast zone with Jumping Inhale, can easily fly from the bottom of the stage to a ledge with Upper Cutter (and stage spike anybody willing to challenge Kirby), along with multiple jumps to go along with it. He can also drop down quickly to recover low using Stone, giving opponents less time to set up for edgeguarding. The only thing stopping Kirby from having one of the best recoveries in the game is his vulnerability and atrocious air speed. However, having so much options for recovering, along with his already good recovery, means that gimping or edgeguarding Kirby will be significantly harder than others. From personal experience, the only time I have ever failed to recover with Kirby is from @Spirst's cans from Duck Hunt, along with being stage spiked (although this is rare when using Upper Cutter).

Please excuse my lack of, er, sentence structure. It's quite a mess, but hopefully people will understand what this post is about. Also, this was typed up fairly late, so please bring up anything that doesn't sound right in general!

Going from my previous post about Kirby's significant jump boost from using Hammer Bash, I've worked on it a bit more to find actual uses for this outside of recovering. Some things were obvious, others were not. I'm almost certain this'll help Kirby out, whether it be minor or significant.

Hammer Bash with Meteor Stone

Quite possibly the most interesting and useful find, is that I now have a solution for using Meteor Stone. To inform those who don't know, Meteor Stone is one of Kirby's stone custom, and as the name implies, meteor's opponents. There's a few difference with this meteor smash than others, though. For one, it's one of the strongest meteor smashes in the game, killing basically every character at 10% while hanging from the ledge. Along with that, it's a falling, lasting hitbox. This makes it easier to challenge recoveries, as Kirby is falling down while the opponent is rising up, making it MUCH easier to land this meteor than others. Lastly, Kirby is completely invincible while falling, so he can go straight through recoveries. The only way to knock Kirby out of Meteor Stone is by using a move that does 20% or more in one hit, in the air, while he's falling, without getting hit yourself.

Now, there's one catch that completely ruins this custom. If Kirby full hops off the ledge and uses Meteor Stone, if he doesn't hit the opponent... he's dead. The added transformation time takes so long to get out of that Kirby can not escape, even if he mashes out. This can be seen here: http://i.imgur.com/yo2hC3Z.gif. Of course, by that this'll seem like there's no reason to use Meteor Stone, hence the "if he doesn't hit the opponent". This is because a new system was added in Smash 4 with Kirby's Stone. If any of the Stone variants come in contact with ANYTHING while falling, whether it be an opponent, projectile, or the ground, he can get out of Stone instantly, letting him survive Meteor Stone. This made the move have an incredibly high risk:reward ratio - if you land it, you survive and the opponent is dead, no matter the %. If you miss, you're dead and the opponent lives.

We now have a solution to this. As should be relatively obvious, Hammer Bash comes into place. If Kirby jumps off the ledge and boosts his jump with Hammer Bash, he can survive Meteor Stone if he misses the opponent! This can be seen here: http://i.imgur.com/R8DU1tX.gifv. Along with that, to remove any risk of being killed from being a bit low, there's a few things that come into place. First, is that the opponent is either still recovering, or just got on stage, which reduces the likelihood of Kirby being punished while getting out of Stone. Adding to that, and probably reducing the most risk, is that Kirby can buffer Upper Cutter to immediately grab onto the ledge from the height he gets out of Meteor Stone at. The height is, quite literally, right where Kirby needs to be to Upper Cutter back to the stage without using any jumps. If that becomes too obvious, he also has the choice to back away from where he was using Hammer Bash jumps, and Jumping Inhale back to the stage, or just use Hammer Bash jumps to get back and save his recovery in the case that he does get hit.

What this means for Kirby is that he now has a relatively low risk, yet high reward way to destroy recovering opponents. Obviously, characters such as Pikachu and Greninja that can quickly change the direction of their recovery can avoid this. However, characters such as Marth, Link, Villager, Olimar, and Duck Hunt, who either have recoveries that go straight upwards (Marth and Link) or recoveries that are slow yet go great distances (Villager, Olimar, Duck Hunt) will suffer from this. Similar to his recovering options, Kirby can easily mix-up his edgeguarding game, too, so he doesn't have to resort to Meteor Stone all the time. He has his D-Air, which can lead into another D-Air to secure low percent kills, or a footstool to send opponents tumbling into the boundaries. He has Upper Cutter and B-Air, both of which are amazing, fast, high-powered stage spiking attacks. He can also use F-Air to create a WoP (Wall of Pain), and can use B-Air walls to exhaust people's jumps and destroy them.

Hammer Bash with Burying Stone

This one, while quite situational, allows Kirby to rack up quite a bit of damage in an instant. Against CPU mashing, which is basically god-tier mashing, Burying Stone (which buries opponents, obviously) can combo into Hammer Bash at any percent, although 0 to 10% is a bit harder and requires basically frame-perfect timing. This is an easy 37%, and at higher percents, such as 100%+, two Burying Stone's can be used for around 53% total. This is because Burying Stone adds on transformation time by completely removing the ending lag, letting Kirby act out of Stone instantly.

Air Chasing with Hammer Bash

This one was pretty obvious, but helps quite a bit. After launching opponents upwards, Kirby can easily chase them up to continue juggles, kill with Upper Cutter, and can help add on to strings. This is because Kirby's full hop height is significantly increased with Hammer Bash, so he can get up in the air faster than usual. Using this, it greatly increases Kirby's ability to continue juggles. Also, as Kirby rises while swinging the Hammer, he can catch opponents who try to fast fall away.

Ledge Hop with Hammer Bash

This one is actually a bit more useful than others. Kirby can add another mix-up to his ledge options by cancelling the initial frames of a ledge hop into Hammer Bash. This is similar to how Ganondorf/Captain Falcon can cancel into their down specials, of Marth/Lucina/Ike can instantly counter on the ledge. The main difference is that Kirby carries his momentum up with the ledge hop, sending him incredibly high above the stage. This allows him to easily dodge any attacks from ledge hops that are read by the opponent. He can then fall down with Stone, D-Air, or another attack and punish the opponent. Along with that, if the opponent reads the ledge hop and tries to punish Kirby by jumping into him and attacking, they'll be hit into the air with Hammer Bash, knocked straight into a juggle as Kirby follows upwards.
_______________________________________

There's still more I could go into, but I'm still exploring viable ways to use this. So... that's the end of this post!

Also, I forgot to mention it in the last post I made. After a bit more testing, due to the lack of height on Kirby's last mid-air jump, using that jump withing any Hammer Bash boosts will actually let Kirby go around one Kirby higher than before. As a comparison, when going from Palutena's Temple bottom platform to the bridge, Villager's Balloon Trip ends around two Kirbys higher than Kirby lands.

yes I used Kirby units as a way to measure

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I have more super secret stuff that I've been telling Asdioh, lol. Will post later.

 

[MaximTomato]

Wow I can't believe I haven't seen this until now. This is amazing guys! I'm not sure if it's been looked into already, but does kirby have any good ways to start a jab lock combo.

 

[Unknownkid]

If you footstool someone onto the ground and they don't tech, you can jab lock them.
Dapuffster (a Mii Brawler) tries to grab then Release to perform the footstool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guoksvQ_27o - 2:39. Smash Corner use Bair off a platform.
Dtilt off a platform does the same time I believe.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

If you footstool someone on the ground and they don't tech, you can jab lock them.
Dapuffster (a Mii Brawler) tries to grab then Release to perform the footstool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guoksvQ_27o - 2:39. Smash Corner use Bair off a platform.
Dtilt off a platform does the same time I believe.

You can't footstool grounded opponents to put them in a tumble state, though? Also, even if you're footstooling an opponent in the air, Kirby could go too high up to make it down in time. B-Air off a platform would be good, but most people would run off the platform.

Anyways, I recommend using the strong hit of N-Air at lower percents, and the weak hit at higher percents. It's harder to time the tech, and if you fast fall, you'll be able to get to them before they get up.

 

[Unknownkid]

Oops... I didn't mean on a grounded opponent. My bad. Thank you for the correction!

 

[chaosmasterro]

Random thought that came to my head last night. In the Diddy match-up could Kirby wall diddy out with ice breath if Kirby was able to get a hold of his banana?

 

[Unknownkid]

Random thought that came to my head last night. In the Diddy match-up could Kirby wall diddy out with ice breath if Kirby was able to get a hold of his banana?

In theory, yes. But you can either jump over or roll behind Ice Breath. Due to Ice Breath having Inhale's startup and recovery, you will be punished (perhaps pretty hard).

Hey Reserved, when are you going to post more secrets about Kirby and his customs? Last time you mention it was on my Bday.

 

[chaosmasterro]

Reason I said that was because I was playing my buddy who uses Falcon and he told me that he had the hardest time approaching because all of his frontal approaches were cancelled because of the ice breath. I thought the same could apply for Diddy. I may play around with the custom more against characters who doesn't have a great projectile or none at all.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

In theory, yes. But you can either jump over or roll behind Ice Breath. Due to Ice Breath having Inhale's startup and recovery, you will be punished (perhaps pretty hard).

Hey Reserved, when are you going to post more secrets about Kirby and his customs? Last time you mention it was on my Bday.

Going to be recording videos later today. It'll come soon enough as long as @ Asdioh doesn't spoil everything because he likes to do that.

I've gotten A LOT more stuff after I posted that to be shared... so hold on!

 

[Asdioh]

spoilers Kirby is bad
I'm dropping him and maining Zelda instead

 

[Unknownkid]

Well, Falcon is silly. From my experience against good Falcons (take that as you will) - Falcon's priority is weird when fighting Kirby. Most of Falcon approaching moves can be stop by Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, Nair, and haha Inhale . You can duck his grab, dash grab and Bair. So you are right. Since Ice Breath is a constant hitbox, it can wall out a lot of people with no energy based projectiles. But if you face someone who knows better, you will get punished. For example, Sonic's spin dash, spin charge and dash approach will be stopped by Ice Breath but if he use Homing Attack or Spin Dash Jump, you will get hit.

Going to be recording videos later today. It'll come soon enough as long as @ Asdioh doesn't spoil everything because he likes to do that.

I've gotten A LOT more stuff after I posted that to be shared... so hold on!

Oh okay. Sorry... I didn't mean to come out as if I was impatient. Please take all the time you need. I will continue to lurk the Competitive Impressions thread to see what spoilers Asdioh will "accidentally" share with our peers. Thank you for your hard work btw!

 

[MaximTomato]

I'm so hyped for what you guys are going to release! Thank You

 

[Vicount Vent]

I seem to have quite a bit of trouble with heavy characters. Is that just one of Kirby's many weaknesses, or do any of you have particular ways to deal with heavy characters such as ganon, DK, etc.

 

[t!MmY]

I seem to have quite a bit of trouble with heavy characters. Is that just one of Kirby's many weaknesses, or do any of you have particular ways to deal with heavy characters such as ganon, DK, etc.

It's trite, I know, but: don't get hit.
It's especially important for characters like Ganondorf and DK (and Bowser). When these characters can KO with a handful of attacks - and Kirby has to land hit after hit - you have to think to yourself about distancing; when they're going to attack, where they're going to attack, and always stay outside that range (or use the proper defense against the attack).

The match-ups get much easier when your prediction improves. To start, focus on playing 'hard to hit' before you learn how to move in for attacks of your own.

Specific tips for Ganondorf:
Distance yourself just outside his Wizard's Foot range. Lower level play involves lots of Wizard's Foot, if you shut it down then the opponent feels crippled. The other distance you want to watch for is Flame Choke. You can bait out a Flame Choke by standing just within its range with your Shield up - as soon as you see Ganondorf move in with Flame Choke, dodge and punish.

Learn the distancing on his smash attacks (and F-tilt). You don't want to be running into those kinds of attacks. In general, don't punish his U-smash because you're likely to just run into his next attack (usually a quick attack like Jab). So, leave the U-smash alone, watch what comes after, the punish should follow there.

Specific tips for DK:
The distancing for this match-up is a bit different: defend on the ground while DK is in the air and play defensive while in the air when DK is on the ground. When DK is in the air he can out speed and out range an airborne Kirby (and his attacks are much more deadly to Kirby), thus you don't really want to go head-to-head in an aerial fight.

The reason you want to be in the air against a DK who is on the ground is because DK has all sorts of nasty stuff to do to a defensive Kirby on the ground (generally his Down Special, Forward Special, Grab, and pressuring using longer-ranged pokes). Also, a DK on the ground can throw out Smashes that will obliterate Kirby.

When in the air, though, Kirby still cannot commit willy-nilly to offense. Kirby's aerials generally will get stuffed by DK's air or ground attacks. Partly because of the speed, partly because of the range, partly because of the strength... so partly because of everything. Instead of attacking, float safely outside his zone and bait out something laggy - something you can actually punish. Either that or just get back to the ground to refresh your jumps.

Kirby is in for a long game of trying to get his damage in while facing the danger of imminent doom with almost every attack coming his way. Sort of fun if you ask me.

 

[LaserLockOn]

Lately I've been starting to use Kirby's Hammer Flip more often as a reliable KO move, using it actually really helped during tight situations as a surprise attack. If the opponent is baiting an aerial from the ground to use an Up Smash you can use the Hammer midair instead to KO, which comes out faster than Stone and requires little maneuvering in order to land it. Since it's disjointed it's a better alternative to Fair, and very useful for challenging smash attacks. If used correctly the hammer can actually net very early KOs (almost 60%+) to put others at a huge disadvantage, like holding it at the ledge to bait a ledge attack or ledge roll.
Not something I'd guarantee competitively, but these are just possibilities.

 

[Unknownkid]

I know what you mean. I have been messing with Hammer Flip in For Glory. I am trying to train myself to read what players will do and how I should hit them with it. The Fully Charged Hit is dangerous. It does a lot of damage to shield. If you hit a shield when they are on the edge, the knockback and shield stun give you enough time to reaction (but it might be character dependent). You can do few moves like stabbing once the opponent's shield is lower. I am still testing things about shield and shield breaking, so it is not reliable yet.

I might post my testing down the road.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Hammer Flip is actually not that bad. Sure, it's unsafe, but as a demoralizing tool, it's almost unparalleled. It's good against characters who can't act out of their recovery, either.

While Hammer Flip is a topic we should stick with, how do you guys take advantage of Hup Cancelling? You know, using Down Air and landing before the attack's hitboxes come out (1-17 frames, I believe?), giving it near zero landing lag. I use it to either follow up with a grab or to punish rolls with either Forward Smash or an aerial, depending on which way they roll. Of course, his Down Air is great on its own but that's a different topic. =P

 

[FranktheKirby]

Hammer Flip is actually not that bad. Sure, it's unsafe, but as a demoralizing tool, it's almost unparalleled. It's good against characters who can't act out of their recovery, either.

While Hammer Flip is a topic we should stick with, how do you guys take advantage of Hup Cancelling? You know, using Down Air and landing before the attack's hitboxes come out (1-17 frames, I believe?), giving it near zero landing lag. I use it to either follow up with a grab or to punish rolls with either Forward Smash or an aerial, depending on which way they roll. Of course, his Down Air is great on its own but that's a different topic. =P

Back on topic with the hammer (lol), I think that Kirby should only ever use it against characters that have just used a very laggy moves, or very poor recovery off stage. Those are the only situations in which I've managed to net kills with the hammer.

Lately I've been starting to use Kirby's Hammer Flip more often as a reliable KO move, using it actually really helped during tight situations as a surprise attack. If the opponent is baiting an aerial from the ground to use an Up Smash you can use the Hammer midair instead to KO, which comes out faster than Stone and requires little maneuvering in order to land it. Since it's disjointed it's a better alternative to Fair, and very useful for challenging smash attacks. If used correctly the hammer can actually net very early KOs (almost 60%+) to put others at a huge disadvantage, like holding it at the ledge to bait a ledge attack or ledge roll.
Not something I'd guarantee competitively, but these are just possibilities.

I've noticed the same things. Although I must say that it's not a very practical idea to go swinging your hammer all over the place. Also, I think it is worth noting (if it hasn't been noted already) that Kirby's level 3 charge of the hammer has some super armor frames that could be taken advantage of while trying to land the attack off stage.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Something worth noting is that fully charged Hammer Flip (I doubt the normal one does, but it might) beats out PK Thunder 2. It's... a bad idea to try and punish it with Hammer Flip, but it's an option.

 

[Unknownkid]

It only has super armor when you are grounded.

 

[FranktheKirby]

I seem to have quite a bit of trouble with heavy characters. Is that just one of Kirby's many weaknesses, or do any of you have particular ways to deal with heavy characters such as ganon, DK, etc.

Two words: Bait and Fair.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Back on topic with the hammer (lol), I think that Kirby should only ever use it against characters that have just used a very laggy moves, or very poor recovery off stage. Those are the only situations in which I've managed to net kills with the hammer.



I've noticed the same things. Although I must say that it's not a very practical idea to go swinging your hammer all over the place. Also, I think it is worth noting (if it hasn't been noted already) that Kirby's level 3 charge of the hammer has some super armor frames that could be taken advantage of while trying to land the attack off stage.

Next time, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

 

[FranktheKirby]

Next time, please use the edit button instead of double posting.

Will do, sorry about that.

 

[LaserLockOn]

I feel the most practical way to use hammer is when both you and the opponent are midair, more as a follow up to a couple variations of the Utilt combos. Because the opponent is in midair, a couple of their options are shut down to be able to fully punish. When you're both falling parallel to each other (with the opponent without anymore jumps) would be the best possible opportunity to pull out the hammer, by moving closer to the opponent holding the hammer in the air. It'll only be countered by an aerial attack from the opponent, but whoever presses (or releases) the button wins. Since Hammer strikes twice the odds are greater for Kirby.
Also just another fun little thing, while facing a Little Mac or any fighter without projectiles, I actually wonder if it's possible to just hold the Hammer for the entire match. The recoil damage ends at 100%, and if the opponent is also at high percentage, one wrong move could be seriously fatal o_o

 

[Unknownkid]

Yeah, you can hold the hammer indefinitely until you get hit or release it. This is where Giant Hammer shines since you obtain super armor on the 2nd charge and it is unblockable on the final charge.

Quick note -
1) While messing with Charged Hammer in FG and finding ways use it, it was Marth Week for some reason. Something funny happen doing my matchup with Marths. Apparently, Marth/Lucina's Counter doesn't kill you when you hit them with a Charged Hammer. They counter so fast (4 frames) that the Super Armor still protect you from the recoil. This happen 3 separate times against several Marths. I know this doesn't work with Mac or Shulk. I doubt it work with Ike, Greninja, Lucario, Palutena and Mii Swordfighter.

2) Next, I was watching Shockwave 16 and KirbyKid & Tindorbox (Both Kirby Mains) were briefly talking about Hammer Setups. KirbyKid mention he tries to ledge thump the opponent and when he/she returns to Kirby's hammer him/her.

Something to think about and use sparingly.

 

[Unknownkid]

Moves that are safe on shield - http://smashboards.com/threads/list-of-moves-that-are-safe-on-shield.390257/

 

[Xenado]

im a veteran kirby player and have been using him since `04.I enjoy Dair+Downsmash or any combo with Dair.Anything u guys could recommend?

 

[LaserLockOn]

im a veteran kirby player and have been using him since `04.I enjoy Dair+Downsmash or any combo with Dair.Anything u guys could recommend?

All of Kirby's aerials can just about give you a grab, like a sour Nair to grab, Fair with the third hit canceled to grab, and on some rare occasions maybe Uair or Bair. Then using Fthrow you can connect with a Fair, then follow up with another grab or dash attack. Bthrow to Bair also works on some fighters, but very effective. But technically Dair to Utilt combos are the most effective strings to use, or maybe an alternative to grabbing.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, you can hold the hammer indefinitely until you get hit or release it. This is where Giant Hammer shines since you obtain super armor on the 2nd charge and it is unblockable on the final charge.

Quick note -
1) While messing with Charged Hammer in FG and finding ways use it, it was Marth Week for some reason. Something funny happen doing my matchup with Marths. Apparently, Marth/Lucina's Counter doesn't kill you when you hit them with a Charged Hammer. They counter so fast (4 frames) that the Super Armor still protect you from the recoil. This happen 3 separate times against several Marths. I know this doesn't work with Mac or Shulk. I doubt it work with Ike, Greninja, Lucario, Palutena and Mii Swordfighter.

2) Next, I was watching Shockwave 16 and KirbyKid & Tindorbox (Both Kirby Mains) were briefly talking about Hammer Setups. KirbyKid mention he tries to ledge thump the opponent and when he/she returns to Kirby's hammer him/her.

Something to think about and use sparingly.

Hammer Flip is great for baiting counters on For Glory. Make it look good and you can net so many kills off of it. It's also a great punish off of a read when people are recovering.

EDIT: I like retreating Fairs against characters with no projectile. Good stuff.

 

[chaosmasterro]

So everyone i was playing around with kirby if he had any moves that can hit an opponent during the 1 frame vulnerability and of course the move that had the most success was no other than... wave cutter. I hate to admit it but it's an edge guard. Thought people should know this.

 

[LaserLockOn]

Are there any thoughts on using Kirby's Reverse Aerial? And by reverse aerial I mean going Bair rushdown all over their face, since his bair really powerful. Kirby has a really low short hop, so combine it with that and it's a completely different gameplay element in Kirby's ground game. Bair is able to easily KO as well, is insanely fast, and outmatches a lot of other aerial attacks in speed and power. And combined with reads, the result would be pretty KO-rific.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Wave Cutter actually has a lot of uses, but yes, it does work very well as an edgeguard. Also I agree with RK, retreating aerials in general are the best.

I don't personally use "going crazy offensive with Kirby's Back Air" as a strategy, but I don't usually play the most offensively - I usually get setups off of grabs, so I'm not the proper guy to ask that to. But it could work, depending on how good the Kirby player is at doing it.

 

[Unknownkid]

Dash Reverse Aerial Attack is a common practice. I use it all the time with ike and Kirby in Brawl.