Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[infomon]

Can side-B beat tornado if it's timed right? You should be able to dig through with the invincy frames! lol @ "infzy frames"

 

[Napilopez]

Can side-B beat tornado if it's timed right? You should be able to dig through with the invincy frames! lol @ "infzy frames"

Problem is the actual infzy frames are only there for a tiny time period, after which is uber high priority from where priority degrades very rapidly. Its hard because Nado is a multihit attack with hitboxes out forever Perhaps with impecablle timing and spacing, but its tough. Its like how you can't go through fully charged shiek needles no matter how well timed your SideB is, because the needle hitboxes are out for too long. Although in that case its a bit differen't ebcause transcendent priority means you could only go through them with infzy frames rather than uber high priority ones.

 

[JayBee]

exactly.

no matter how well i timed it, i only get through part of tornado before taking damage. but since i was DI ing right (tornado was from the left) i was able to escape the rest o tornado damage and hunt for his ending lag. that's why i want to see if you guys get similar results. please test.

 

[infomon]

Ohhhh and I just realized; during the invincy frames, the side-B's "hop" hitbox is out. But that's a single-hit hitbox, within 10% damage of any hit of the tornado. So even if you're invincible, if you move into the tornado, you should clash (whether or not you're in the invincy frames), and after that point MK will be invulnerable to the hop's hitbox.

So yeah, there's no way to defeat a tornado with it, as I'd hoped...

 

[Napilopez]

Ohhhh and I just realized; during the invincy frames, the side-B's "hop" hitbox is out. But that's a single-hit hitbox, within 10% damage of any hit of the tornado. So even if you're invincible, if you move into the tornado, you should clash (whether or not you're in the invincy frames), and after that point MK will be invulnerable to the hop's hitbox.

So yeah, there's no way to defeat a tornado with it, as I'd hoped...

Well, if you ahve time for a side B hop(the startup is pretty laggy, you have time to run away a bit, jump and to start a homing attack, which is safe and effective ^_^.

I'm just working on SDIing out of the nado and then using spring, I've been succesful with it a couple of times.

 

[JayBee]

After furthur testing against strong competition, a new technique has emerged!

Well, Though Im sure the concept is not foriegn to the advanced sonic, the use of this move in this manner is under-discussed. but you know me, never a dull moment.


Spin Dash Counter Attack (SDCA) - the use of Sonic's side B "infzy" frames (side B's invincibility frames) to deliberately "counter" incoming attacks, punishing with a subsequent spindash combo as a result.

I had the last two days against very strong competition to test this theory out. this works.

Pros:
1: increases the usefullness of sideB
2: makes the side B cancel even more dangerous at close range
3: gives Sonics a shot at breaching WOP, tilt spams, and similar situations.

Cons:
1: Extremely difficult to implement.
2: Requires strong spacing and timing
3: Some moves, like Metaknight's Mach Tornado, will beat out SDCA, due to its properties, and the small length of infzy frames to work with.

before tonight, the only people told this too was Godismyrock and Aposol. the first person at Chu's biweekly i tested it on was against JCeasar's ROB. Even though i lost, the application of this move alone made a very noticable difference in the grand scope of the match. and i only had this weekend to work on it. (Rob's Tilt game was somewhat negated during the coarse of the match, btw. steak.)

like i stated before, i think this can be utilized with much more consistancy by someone with strong spacing capabilities, especially against moves you can anticipate.

This is probably the only thing good that came outta going to chu's. unfortunatly, i get beasted again in brackets, losing to Diggs (Yoshi... a really, really good yoshi) and Taj (i hate marths that sandbag. hard as hell to fight for me) and once again brought out meta to try and cheese my way outta losers. almost did though. why the hell am i that good with meta, is beyond me.

Malcolm,Tenki, whoever, work this into your game, and see where it gets you. if you ca give yur impressions before and after some time using it, that would be really good. thx.
the rest of you, discuss.

EDIT: I need a favor from the sonic boards, and look at what you've seen from me in vids, and rate it, analyze it, criticize it. Any vid of me, can be found be searching for "Kojin (Sonic)" on youtube. Be harsh. I need to know if what you see is enough to be one of the best sonics in the country, which has been my goals, and why I'm going to Philly. I'm trying to look at it realistically, and discover if i can, or if im just all talk, or if im just a "brawl scientist." thx.

 

[infomon]

I still can't time side-B's invincy frames, but they definitely help sometimes. I do like side-B as a way to get out of juggling / edgeguarding sometimes..... by going right through the opponent

I looked at your youtube vids... the problem is, there aren't many. There are the vids of us on WiFi, which are saaaaad because of the lag. Then there's the vids of you vs. that ganondorf, where you clearly show that you're a good Sonic, but you wreck him so hard that it's hard to really say how you'd fare in more legitimate competition against.... perhaps more legitimate characters too, lol...

there's another vid of you vs. a DK but the DK was clearly messing up a lot. But yeah it looks like you're beyond "just a researcher" status which is where I'm at

I suspect you're gaining lots from smashfests at Chu's etc..... dayum I've always had the dream of going to a ChuDat bi-weekly since my Melee days, when I stayed up late at nights watching Chu's epic vids..... yea I'm kinda fanboy lollllllllz

 

[JayBee]

i see. ill try to get more recorded vids agaisnt better characters and hopefully bigger names in smash. then that will help i guess.

explain the ASC thing u guys are talkign about. i just want to make sure i know exaclty what u are talking about. and the invincydash too, plz

 

[Tenki]

When I played those wifi games with qwertyman's Dedede, I really started to abuse side-B.

I always did kind of feel as side-B as a counter-attack kind of move (with shield cancel grab and all) but it's really useful. Momentum restarting in midair helped me bait+space past the Dedede's edgeguard attempts, and once in a while I'd counter Dedede B-airs with it.

Also, I started using side-B off-stage - as an edgeguard move. If they airdodge+ double jump, you can catch it as soon as it starts. If you're below the stage, you can side-B>footstool, which is 222222rape.

I forgot where, but I also asked for more people to experiment with side-B>footstools offstage. ;3

 

[JayBee]

i see. like i thought the concept of SDC isn't something you wouldn't know but its not looked at in terms of "counter" liek you said. I want to practice SDC more, because as of right now, its the most controllable way to produce infzy frames from spins.

side b off stage to edgegaurd? i remember that from one match, i don't do it at all, but i will more often...

i dont remember u asking for sdeb footstool but ive seen it before. will work on it and post results here, okay?

 

[MarKO X]

lol another acronym... SDC. Sounds like this could be decent.

 

[Tenki]

I'm pretty sure that SDC was already being used for spindash cancels by some people.

'counter attack with hop' isn't too bad. :3

 

[JayBee]

of corse. the main thing is that this is not a priorit in the current sonic main mindset y, and i want to make it more so. it can be too goods as a close range punisher/ anti air. consistancy is the issue, but that is dealt with in practice. and i wanted another acronym, 'counter attack with hop' is too long

wait, SDC is taken? how about SDCA: Spin Dash Counter Attack? that good? I'll do that then... thx, pal!

edit: im on chat on All is brawl now. so you can talk to me there. im waiting for responces...

 

[Jim Morrison]

Actually, it's SDSC for SpinDashShieldCancel.
I'd say SDC is legit.

So this is pretty tricky to pull off succesfully a lot. I'm likely not going to implement this into my game, it won't give a major advantage over a lot of things.

 

[JayBee]

lol was practicing spring setups with sonic again. going back to it, im starting to make somepretty funny stuff to do. i tried using it as a "shiled" agaisnt aerial happy opponents, at least that was the theory. i know u guys understand what would happen, so i wont get so much into that. also, i thought of calling the act of dairing on a grounded spring a "bouncing dair," which is a cool name too.

grounded spring (near opponent) > aerial onto spring > bouncing dair x1 > HA

I tried doign this as quickly as I could, the second the spring canceled the move. so it tends to be like:

Fair> spring cancel > Bouncing dair x1 > HA. timing it asap after the spring cancel was intersting, and in training mode, i actually knocked the cpu into the spring after HA. lol. granted, this isn't gonna be something game breaking, but you know me, i try stuff anyways and see if can make something outta it, even when most say u can't.

I got nothign else to discuss though, but if anyone has had any good experience with using a gounded spring like that, go ahead and talk about it. i still think its a decent anti air idea though... or at least discourages aerials near the spring for the time its there...


Lastly, on february 21, there will be Brawl/treet Fighter 4 money tourney at Gamepad in spotsylvania mall, in frederickburg, VA. more info will be posted hopefully tonight, so keep an eye out here for the link. I need you Sonic's to show up, im serious. I'll be there, for sure. If you go to C3 and chusdat's biweeklies especially because of location. they do need wiis and brawl setups too. link will be here tonight.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Grounded Springs always fascinate me. Which opponent could resist the amazing big, red spring. Everyone wants to jump on, for the sake of a lulwut boost. That's where you spring underneath them and U-air LULZ. Or if you really want to get amazing lulz, when your opponent is about to jump on the spring, you use spring and he falls on the ground. LULZ ENSUE.

 

[Camalange]

Or if you really want to get amazing lulz, when your opponent is about to jump on the spring, you use spring and he falls on the ground. LULZ ENSUE.

lolol, epic mindgames.

As for the "Spring Canceled Aerials" I sometimes just do a dair - dair so you cut short in front, but then hit immediatley after the spring...ya dig wut am sayin'?

I'm not too creative with it, but I know if the HA locks onto it, it also outcancels :o

 

[JayBee]

true dat. btw Cammy, you better go to this tourney once i get out the information

 

[Camalange]

true dat. btw Cammy, you better go to this tourney once i get out the information

What tournament? I'm going to one in Scranton this weekend and I might be going to CoT4.

Please refrain from calling me Cammy D:

 

[JayBee]

its not until february, you got time man.

 

[infomon]

Hmmm, you mentioned spring as an aerial shield.... I wonder if there are many situations in which the spring helps keep them in hitlag long enough that spring > Dair has a good chance of hitting them unpunished. That'd be.... a nice option to have. Especially since single-hit attacks would clash against the spring and lose their ability to harm us. Dunno how realistic it is tho.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Hmmm, you mentioned spring as an aerial shield.... I wonder if there are many situations in which the spring helps keep them in hitlag long enough that spring > Dair has a good chance of hitting them unpunished. That'd be.... a nice option to have. Especially since single-hit attacks would clash against the spring and lose their ability to harm us. Dunno how realistic it is tho.

lol

I've pulled that combo off a couple of times.

Strange how you're the only one I've ever pulled it off on.

 

[JayBee]

i dunno how reliable, but it can be done. you have to be quick, because the spring lasts maybe two or three seconds.

Ive tried to use the spring while zonig while it was out sometimes, but i havent treid it in recent memory. the idea was that i thought that if they aerialed at me, then the spring would pop them up and mess them up, discouraging air moves near the spring. that's my thoughts on it. i may get a chance to test that some more in the coming weeks.

 

[infomon]

lol

well ty cat, maybe that's why I thought of it here

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

What tournament? I'm going to one in Scranton this weekend and I might be going to CoT4.

Please refrain from calling me Cammy D:

Dude you're TOTALLY Cammy now.

Edit: Hmm... tounreys in Scranton eh?......

Spoiler

lol typo on purpose. Read the thread title

 

[JayBee]

Ill be able to go to CoT4 too if my freinds give me a ride.

 

[Camalange]

Dude you're TOTALLY Cammy now.

Edit: Hmm... tounreys in Scranton eh?......

I hate all of you.

Spoiler

lol typo on purpose. Read the thread title

Ill be able to go to CoT4 too if my freinds give me a ride.

Jaybee still hasn't caught on? lol

And I hope you can go man, as I hope I can, lol.

 

[JayBee]

once i confirm with my freinds, then id liek to ask one of you guys about a place to crash for the tourney.

 

[Camalange]

*Jaybee should fix the spelling error in his title*

 

[JayBee]

lol opps. remember, i did it all for you Cammy...

 

[Camalange]

*sigh*

/chis

I'll never escape this...

 

[JayBee]

what do you think?

 

[Camalange]

Broken image?

 

[Tenki]

Fair> spring cancel > Bouncing dair x1 > HA. timing it asap after the spring cancel was intersting, and in training mode, i actually knocked the cpu into the spring after HA. lol. granted, this isn't gonna be something game breaking, but you know me, i try stuff anyways and see if can make something outta it, even when most say u can't.

:O

I totally do that.

though, my best spring-cancelled aerial combo was F-air |> D-air |> B-air. 2222 good x]

I thought it was gamebreaking, because I was like "OMG SONIC CAN L-CANCEL! LOL I CALL IT S-CANCEL", but the Brawl+ people totally jacked that term later on.

:/


Also, if the opponent is inside the grounded spring, D-air |> footstool --> puts them on the spring.

Grounded Springs always fascinate me. Which opponent could resist the amazing big, red spring. Everyone wants to jump on, for the sake of a lulwut boost. That's where you spring underneath them and U-air LULZ. Or if you really want to get amazing lulz, when your opponent is about to jump on the spring, you use spring and he falls on the ground. LULZ ENSUE.

lol it's funny when you play against a newbie person who tries to spam something like stall-then-fall D-airs on a grounded spring and you do that XD

Hmmm, you mentioned spring as an aerial shield.... I wonder if there are many situations in which the spring helps keep them in hitlag long enough that spring > Dair has a good chance of hitting them unpunished. That'd be.... a nice option to have. Especially since single-hit attacks would clash against the spring and lose their ability to harm us. Dunno how realistic it is tho.

Well, it's kind of like this idea I had wayyy back when people thought Marth was all SH F-airs, to use a grounded spring to make Marth screw up his spacing by hiding behind it. But his reach is a bit too long.

If you mean grounded springs, there is no hitlag at all - which is why Sonic's spring-cancelled aerials are cool.

i dunno how reliable, but it can be done. you have to be quick, because the spring lasts maybe two or three seconds.

Ive tried to use the spring while zonig while it was out sometimes, but i havent treid it in recent memory. the idea was that i thought that if they aerialed at me, then the spring would pop them up and mess them up, discouraging air moves near the spring. that's my thoughts on it. i may get a chance to test that some more in the coming weeks.

lol welcome to me and BT's spring thread :[

Also, the spring lasts 4 seconds.
though, thinking back on it, I may or may not have included 0 as a second lol.

 

[MalcolmM]

use a grounded spring against the tornado. it forces it to b an aerial tornado or a stupid side-b....u can punish both. i saw someone on the boards using a grounded spring right next to the ledge to kind of limit an opponents option while getting off the ledge and i thought that was brilliant. not sure who that was but it was fairly recent.

as for other grounded spring stuff....i got no idea....

 

[JayBee]

ive been known to do that a few times, but then id be like, couldn't i just go edge gaurd them instead? but its seems so silly that it might work. steak.

btw, gamepad is having a tourney in frederickburg, VA. as many Sonic mains should go, to ensure successful steak and a good time. Street Fighter 4 has been confirmed as well.

They asked me to create an advertisment for them, it hasn't been officially finalized, but you guys can get a first look at it anyway. youre welcome.

KojinSagara Productions is taking an unofficial role in this tourney so your support is appreciated. once this is finalized a thread will be made in the tournament listings. thank you for your support.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'll try to be there.

So, Sonic mains should walk more, instead of always dashing.

/discuss.

 

[Camalange]

@Malcolm- I say Izzy do that in his recent combo video. Thinkin' of him?

@Gf- I walk :o

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Walk on home boy.

 

[Jim Morrison]

use a grounded spring against the tornado. it forces it to b an aerial tornado or a stupid side-b....u can punish both. i saw someone on the boards using a grounded spring right next to the ledge to kind of limit an opponents option while getting off the ledge and i thought that was brilliant. not sure who that was but it was fairly recent.

as for other grounded spring stuff....i got no idea....

I use this a lot. Not extremely on the ledge, but like half a roll distance :O. Depends on who your opponent is. If you opponent is someone with a high double jump, you could put a Spring very close to the ledge to keep them from DJ-attacking off the ledge. Or you put up a spring near the edge and continuously spam D-airs. Never tried this, but it seems it limits their options only to roll on ledge. DJ gets them hit, ledge jump will too, normal stand up will too, ledge attack will too (on most).

Grounded spring is epic.