Kowns Thread.

[Admiral Pit]

Not surprised, though I did come across a troublemaker or 2 (or someone I may not like) already upon coming back here, though not surprised either. Hopefully things will improve... eventually...

 

[LoliLovesRain]

=/ well I haven't really posted in a while I mean I've read stuff just didn't post :/

 

[Katana_koden]

Why what's up loli? Nothing caught your interests?

 

[Nikenick]

School started again and I need to memorize more than 1000 Latin words before January, looks like I won't be on here much. Anatomy sucks.

 

[Katana_koden]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263652&highlight=Pit+frame+data

If you guys want me to continue this thread, please post in it if its useful.

 

[SuSa]

It's very confusing, a lot of it doesn't make much sense, and given pure frame data of "unshielded" that would be incorrect - because you are not taking into consideration the time it takes to close said space to attack.

When doing this you must assume the opponent is rubbing up against you practically, and decide on your punishing from there. A normal shield slides a little and has shieldstun sometimes. A powershield does not, which is why I tested Snake's using a powershield.

Then with the data you get from that, you are able to decide upon your possible actions at point blank range - and it will take knowing your character to decide when the enemy is to far away for you to actually punish them. This is something frame data cannot show.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

^^^^
For some reason when I shield an attack and I'm pushed back to far, an arrow can usually punish for some odd reason. Why is that? Arrows are pretty slow, and the opponent should have time to punish but I guess if you account for their attack cool-down, and their running or walking frames, they might not be able to punish. Can we take a look into this?

 

[LoliLovesRain]

Why what's up loli? Nothing caught your interests?

mehhh just been doing stuff =/ I'm trying to finish my blazer or get almost done and I've been doing school work and watching lots of anime and haven't really found anything to talk about ^^, anyway byes!~

 

[Kuro~]

guys ima start doing write ups for the match up thread i want a vote on what character you think we most need to discuss first in most priority to lowest priority (besides the ones we already have discussions on)

 

[Nitrix]

I'd say just go with the tier list in descending order. Nobody really cares about low tiers ._.

 

[LoliLovesRain]

I agree with Nitrix on just going from the top of the new tier list and then down.

 

[Nikenick]

I agree with Loli agree-ing.

 

[SuSa]

You just haad to add that last part.

I would've sigged it.


The Counterpick System is NOT essential.

Spoiler

Everything you will need to be informed about this debate will be posted momentarily.


Updated, easier to read, double-checking order of replies.

Referenced thread about neutrals/stage selection this is "BPC's

thread"

Pierce's first reply to this thread (Reply #4)

Spoiler

I want a second opinion on whether I'd be entirely justified on locking and deleting a thread that quotes

me several times in private message without my knowledge or consent that the message was going to be used publicly. This is

typically considered extremely rude. In this particular instance, I don't REALLY care all that much. I merely encourage everyone to

take everything I say with a tad bit grain of salt, simply because thing things I say past midnight in PM doesn't imply that I put

as much thought into a well thought out address to the public.

For instance, if I had written this in a post, I would've used the phrase "Starter" instead of "Neutral" because that is the

official terminology of the BBR.

Also, keep in mind that everything said in this thread is in no way representative of the BBR. It is merely my own opinion and

speculation.

Joking title is so not going to fit the length of this post. I figured I'd try to get a laugh out of

you before continuing. Expect a lengthy read, but I'll try to keep it as short and to-the-point as possible.

1) Heard Marc you're trying to speak to the BBR and get things worked about accepting people whom are voted in by the community.

Kudos, if that can happen my CH idea can be thrown down the drain (for the most part) seeing as the next-best-thing happened.

However, I'd like to know the factors in which they are trying to consider for this. (To remove the possibility of bribes for

votes, as an example)


2) As far as the MK Ban discussion goes, Anti-Ban needs to come up with data they want to see to have Pro-Ban be able to

find, organize, and display such data to them. I posted this in the thread in the SS in a response to Marc so if you want further

details read there please. The TL;DR however is that Pro-Ban has to randomly find and present information, and Anti-Ban just says

"well we're not looking for that" but doesn't tell Pro-Ban what they ARE looking for. If they can give us criteria that must be

met, or data that must be shown - then we can finally make progress on this issue.

3) I honestly didn't know you had this job. Otherwise I would have gone through you. I usually avoid admins (JV)

because it can take weeks/months to get an answer on the simplist and shortest of questions due to how busy/non-existant they

really are.

4) Stage Discussion needs to be considered. BudgetPlayerCadet (or something like that) posted a WONERFUL stage analysis of how much

a double-standard our stage list currenty is. It creates character bias and can't be seen as "fair" even with "neutral" stages. I

believe the BBR should at least discuss this amongst themselves, or provide some input into this matter. I think the thread is

called "OH NO IT MOVES" or something like that... It's made by BPC and is front page, not hard to find.

I'll leave my 5th point to be explained at a later date, depending on how #1 ends up. because until that happens, it's rather moot.

1) I can't tell you too much, because that goes against the privacy of the BBR. You obviously already know that I

did bring it up.

2) I don't have much interest in discussing the MK ban, because I honestly couldn't care either way atm. I have too much bias at

this point. However, I think it's important to allow people to talk about it, and I'll see about getting that allowed again.

3) I'll refrain from replying to this.

4) Stage discussion in the BBR typically occurs each time we go into updating the ruleset. Also, I read every post in Tactical, and

I read BPC's thread already, even though I opted not to post this time.

Understood.

My stance on it is very confusing. It doesn't really effect me either way - but I do care about which direction it goes...I

don't see the community dwindling because he's NOT around.... =\

3) It didn't even need to be answered, I was just stating the fact. =P

4) Okay.

5th Point, now that I have some answers:

How important/essential is the counterpick system? First - stage wise; Second - character wise.

SSB is one of the few (only one I know about personally actually..) games that allow a counterpick between rounds. This has become

an established standard. If you lose, you may counterpick. The fact it has become standard deems it of some importance, however how

essential is it? Not factoring in MK (yet) whom ruins the entire system (arguably... with no bad matchups or stages); how essential

is it, if essential at all?

Why is it in place? Would it hurt to remove the system? The system itself actually seems uncompetitive. It allows you to try and

place yourself at a huge advantage over your opponent by hard countering them and picking their characters worse stage. How

is that competitive? In fact, that's detrimental to competitiveness, but we have it around anyways. Why? It's obviously "more fair"

but is that a good enough reason?

So for what reason is this system around?

Now if we add the MK factor, it would have us lead that counterpicking is not essential to Brawl and should therefore... be

removed. If it's not essential, why keep it around? If it has been proven essential - this is where the MK discussion occurs.

How important is the ability to counterpick a stage against your opponent? Meta Knight arguably has no disadvantageous stages. He

breaks the stage counterpick system.

How important is the ability to counterpick characters against your opponent? Meta Knight answers this question with - pick Meta

Knight. This automatically centralizes the entire counterpick system on him which causes the metagame (which has proven to

be very dependant on counterpicks) to be entirely focused on him. Doesn't this qualify as overcentralization of the

metagame?

Hope you can bring this up with the BBR, feel free to use this PM if you want to. However, I'd love to get 5-10 opinions from the

BBR answering all of my questions.. just to get an idea on how they think.

It's commonly agreed that MK breaks the Counter-Pick system for the most part. We discussed the counterpick system

once, and we concluded that while rubberbanding is typically discouraged as a competitive feature, allowing the opponent to do it

as well balances things out. While I may not entirely agree with this, I'm of the opinion that the CP system is fine, and hence I'm

not looking to change it, and have yet to be introduced to a superior alternative.

Marc has told me otherwise. Rubberbanding? I see about the balance, and I don't really agree with

it..... just because it's balanced does not mean it should be there. There is no essential reason for the counterpick

system to be in place. None at all. If there is an essential reason, than MK breaks that - centralizes the gameplay around him by

doing so - and that can be used as ban criteria.

See what I'm trying to get at? The counterpick system is not essential yet we include it. This means it's important, but not

essential. No reasons are stated for why it is in place. There are no reasons as to why it is in place. For everything else

the BBR does, they try to include a reason. They removed the Bowsercide/Ganoncide rule because they believe the winner screen

should be followed. So what is there reasoning behind the counterpick system being in place?

No one has yet to suggest an alternative that we find superior.

Superior: No counterpicking, best 2/3 3 stock rounds, random stage selected from the stage list.

Or, no counterpicking characters as that part is definately not essential - but you can counterpick stages.

What can be superior to a non-essential, but wanted system? Nothing. You are avoiding my question of what makes the

counterpick system essential to competitive gameplay?

The correct answer:
It isn't.

However that raises another question. Why is it incorperated if not essential? Which this is now a subjective point, and it

is only around because we believe it should be.

There are no superior alternatives? That's completely avoiding the questions.... there doesn't need to be an alternative

because it doesn't need to be around. (Bit sick of having to say this...)

What makes different stages essential to competitive gameplay? Nothing. It's implied
that very few rules or setting are essential. I didn't avoid your question, I just viewed it to be rhetorical.

I would say giving players the OPTIONS of the stage the play on is superior to having it randomly decided. I would guess that most

of the community agrees with me. I would also agree that people would feel more comfortable with the ability to switch out of

unwinnables on a double blind, even if it means you can get CPed.

I'm speaking of the counterpick system. For both stages and characters.

You were completely avoiding the question. Now you answered finally with "It is not essential"

And you also used words like "comfortable" and "ability to switch out from unwinnables" (which technically don't exist to be

honest)

Without a counterpick system, there is a clear line drawn between "tournament viable" and "not tournament viable". Characters whom

are infinited by DDD for example, are less tournament viable. In fact - the only reason they are tournament viable is

because of the counterpick system. If you were a DK, I'd go DDD. You'd ask for a double-blind pick. At this point, I'm safer going

DDD than you are DK. Especially if you are a DK main, I'd have the advantage of going my main vs your secondary. Without a

counterpick system, if we did choose our mains - and because DDD's infinite is not banned by the BBR it would give you an

"unwinnable" (don't get grabbed, hur hur) matchup.

Now, this is not essential to competitive gameplay. In fact, it only exists to make certain characters more viable in

competitive play. This goes against everything that the BBR argues for. This goes against banning the small-step CG,

this goes against banning [selective] infinites. This goes against banning Meta Knight.

Now do you see why I want you to bring this up to the BBR? Essentially it is an extreme double standard of making

the game more varied and "balanced". It's something many people overlook, but the blatant fact is there.

If you want criteria for a ban against Meta Knight, look at the non-essential counter-pick system in place. In order

to remove the double-standard, you either need to remove the counterpick system for characters, or remove Meta Knight.

As I stated it's actually very uncompetitive to have a counterpick system in place. If you don't want to be counterpicked,

the answer is clear. Pick Meta Knight. With the counterpick system, if you don't want to be counterpicked, the answer is

clear. Pick Meta Knight.

Removing the counterpick system - leaves Meta Knight as the center of metagame.

Keeping counterpick system, removing Meta Knight - Every other character has a counterpick, making no one character the best

choice. Now it comes down to preference, and.. le gasp! You have a varied metagame with no one overly dominate character!

Spoiler

So what do you think personally of my argument? I've only seen anything similar used once, it didn't get very detailed

like mine - and it was completely ignored.

Please... just present this to the BBR for discussion, I feel like I'm only getting your input - and I know you don't speak for the

BBR.. just as PR for them...

If you were under the impression that I'm going to nitpick words and debate with you through PM, you're sadly

mistaken. I take time out of my day every Wednesday to do this, and I'm surely not going to do it on a relaxing Saturday night.

You yourself said that the CP system increases the "viability" of several characters. You go on to state that MK breaks the system.

This has already been known forever.

You want me to bring up your argument to the BBR? And say what exactly?

"Susa has pointed out a flaw in our counter-pick system. Like several other features of our ruleset, it is not essential.

Furthermore, it's ruined by MK. Therefore, we are creating a double standard by having a counter-pick system and MK together in the

same ruleset."

It would get argued over for a bit, then probably laughed at, then ignored while a couple of die-hards debate it.

By the way, it's quite false that we do not have rules to be fair to the cast. Realistically, a shorter timer helps some characters

clock each other out, and a neutral stage list helps to keep the game as balanced as possible. Furthermore, counterpick is done to

give the players more options, not to balance the cast. Whether or not it's essential, it's a widely accepted and appreciated

clause in our ruleset, and it's unlikely that the BBR would recommend it for change, or that the public would even accept such a

recommendation if it were to happen.

Saying that removing MK leaves a more diverse metagame is an age old proban argument that I have used myself. It's not new.

Why have you not started a thread in Tactical titled "Removing the Counter-Pick system" where you proceed to explain how you don't

think the CP system is good. You really don't need to talk about MK at all to do this. Then you could suggest an alternative in

public.

If you do this, then I will bring it up in the BR.

The PM's between myself and yourself are now open for public criticism. I have stated my points, and you have

stated yours as well as do your best to answer said points. I will let the public discuss on whom they feel is correct.

Also giving a player more options, essentially balances the cast.

Now watch how fast the thread turns into an MK debate and it gets locked.

Also your argument brings up "neutral" stages being "the most fair" which I again refer to BPC's argument against that and the

polarization of many of these stages towards certain characters.

 

[Kuro~]

New discussion thread is up topic is olimar go post in there please

 

[Nitrix]

Originally Posted by NickRiddle
He's using Tornado.
Airing your people up.
Tryna gimp you so yall need ta
Hide ya Snake
Hide ya Marth
Hide ya Pit
Hide ya Ike
Hide ya Ness
Hide ya Link
And hide ya Falco' cause he gimpin errybody out here.
You will try your best to approach
He'll run to the edge.
He gonn plank you. He gonn plank you.
He's gonna run until that
run until that
run until that
Time out
Time out
Time
Time
Time out~

Metagame Intruder

So funny lol. Found it in Lucario social

 

[LoliLovesRain]

It's the best isn't it?

 

[SuSa]

I agree with Loli.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Hi, all :D
And DANG! You Pits LOVE making new threads xD

 

[Nitrix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNahnpRNNPU&feature=related

We should B-Reversal our Mirror Shield more. I like how this Pit does it

 

[SuSa]

I actually... like how that worked out for him often. XD

 

[Kuro~]

HEY DONT FORGET TO START CHECKING OUT WHAT MATCHUP DISCUSSIONS ARE UP EACH WEEK IF U CAN :O OR ILL KEEEEEL U ALL!!!>:O jk but try to post in it pl0x

 

[Kitamerby]

 

[LoliLovesRain]

...I actually smiled to that picture xD I feel kind of like a loser tho :-p

 

[SuSa]

That's because you are a loser. <3

 

[LoliLovesRain]

Pshh tay tay I'm not a loser! Gosh I come up with awesome nick names like TayTay :-p <3

 

[SuSa]

Because NO ONE has thought of that before.

 

[KiraFlax]

Going to rep pit at DC this week end!!!

 

[Mister Eric]

Going to rep pit at DC this week end!!!

Nah, rep R.O.B. instead xP

 

[Saki-]

Nah repping Pit gives you more cool points. Not to mention the adoring girls that love how awesome your are with Pit.

 

[KiraFlax]

lol Kola, pitskeyblade and lolilovesrain were really excited to meet me. They are both pretty awesome in person. Nice thing i was looking pretty good at the time, also not gunna lie, so were they! keep reppin that pit!

 

[Krystedez]

I was really hoping to come so I could see the Pit rep and help rep Wario...

Fortunately Malcom showed people what's up

I really need to enter a tournament with Pit. I'm feeling it!

 

[LoliLovesRain]

Lol I just like meeting pit players in general haha tho if you were mean i probably would've looked at you been like cool and walked away xD BUT YOU WERE SOOO NICE!!!!!! and teaming with you in friendlies was extremely fun! GO TO DALLAS!!!!!! i shall be there

 

[pitskeyblade]

I wish I could go to Dallas, but it doesn't look good for me. T.T

 

[@TKbreezy]

next CONFIRMED tournaments

VC8 In NJ (Next week)
SiiS4 in Ohio (January)
Pound 5 in VA (February)

I'll Be in NC halloween weekend though...not sure if Im actually going to go home to Fayetteville or just stay with snap...either way...I'm still a little sad face Tara...

 

[LoliLovesRain]

grrrr GO TO DALLAS!!!!!! so far i know im going to dallas and Pound 5. That's all I'm positive about for OOS tourneys xD siiince none of you guys ever come down to North Miami Beach, FL xD

 

[Pitzer]

I wish I could go to Dallas. Sorry guys. Nice meeting you Loli, Kira, and fyre :3 You guys are amazing Pit mains ftw. Also, if any of you are going to pound 5 hit me up. ^-^ Also Fyre SPIKING IS LEGIT. THANK YOU FYRE FOR SHOWING ME. <3 And Kira Good **** beating cheese <3.

 

[pitskeyblade]

next CONFIRMED tournaments

VC8 In NJ (Next week)
SiiS4 in Ohio (January)
Pound 5 in VA (February)

I'll Be in NC halloween weekend though...not sure if Im actually going to go home to Fayetteville or just stay with snap...either way...I'm still a little sad face Tara...

Why are you sadfaced? Come visit me in NC on Halloween then. As far as I know, I've got nothing planned, which really sucks because Halloween is my favorite holiday.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I haven't been here in so long. What's good Pits? I see yall have been doing work @ MLG. Idk if I can make it to Dallas. I have a new job @ chickfila , so idk what my schedule will look like then.

 

[Kuro~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ICr1_OL-ew


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIloHLAkFbo
WOO finally got a few matches up i got like 6 more coming a set of 5 with a snake and me vs da 2nd best zss in Florida ;D critique if u want i just posted cuz i wanted some vids of myself out there on da youtubez

 

[@TKbreezy]

Why are you sadfaced?

I can't put alll of my business out there so text me

but one of the reasons was because I didnt get to play you after I watched you 2 stock tiger like 6 times..and then she decides to call teams like an A-Hole...