S-Critical
Smash Cadet
Project no.10: Optimising Fox when using Gyro (Fox vs ROB)
Provided by the Fox Discord Lab Team
Provided by the Fox Discord Lab Team
Introduction:
In the Fox vs ROB matchup, ROB can use his Gyro for a plethora of things, such as extending combos, edgeguarding and kill setups. The opponent can use gyro as well, and do the exact same thing. However, not many Fox players use the gyro to its fullest like ROB players, and Fox has the physical properties to even outclass ROB when it comes to combos and kill setups using gyro. I will be going through the more optimum combos that Fox can do, as well as tips and advice of using gyro in the matchup.
General information about gyro (+key)
When you have gyro at hand, you have 4 different throws, and their smash variations, which all do different amounts of damage:
Normal forward throw, NFT | 8
Normal downwards throw, NDT | 9
Normal upwards throw, NUT | 9
Smash forwards throw, SFT |10
Smash downwards throw, SDT | 12
Smash upwards throw, SUT | 11
Dash throw, DT | 9
Forward throw | 8
Downwards throw | 7
Upwards throw | 9
Z-Drop | 7
Note: Fox cannot do the grounded Z-Drop with gyro. Instead, he will do the normal forward throw.
Once thrown at an opponent, the gyro will bounce up, no matter what direction you throw the gyro. Afterwards, it will hit the ground. After 3 bounces, the gyro will disappear, and ROB will be able to spawn it once again. Obviously, if the gyro is shielded, it disappears immediately. In order to optimise your game using Gyro, I would recommend not trying to shield it when ROB throws it at you. But this doesn’t mean getting hit by it. Baiting the ROB to throw gyro at you and safely catch it or pick it up. You can catch gyro by simply being next to it and picking it up, air dodging just before it hits you, doing an aerial just before it hits you or using your grab button. Using the grab button does not require you to commit to anything, as you will still be in your idle falling or standing animation, making the chances of you getting punished a lot lower than before.
The combo game with gyro
A lot of Fox mains simply just use gyro to throw at their opponent to chip on some extra damage. To be honest, I think this is the completely wrong thing that we should be doing when we have gyro in our hands. When we have gyro in our hand, We can potentially do some nasty stuff on them. Let's explore what we can do with just the normal throws:
NFT>Dash attack (14%)
NFT into dash attack is the easiest combo you can do. 14% isn’t that bad for a simple combo, and no skill or practice is needed in order to execute. What makes this combo good is that you can instantly use it as an out of shield (OoS) option, and you will do a bit more damage than the average jab punish or dthrow combo attempt. The damage is also guaranteed, but combos like dthrow>RAR bair are not due to DI and other options that your opponent can use to escape the combo. Finally, this combo has a big range in which it will still true combo, regardless of what DI the opponent uses (I will go into more detail about this property later). The downside of this combo is… it doesn’t really do much for you. As safe as the combo it is, you will lose gyro, and you will have to wait to get gyro again, unless you try to run back. However, ROB can attack you before you have a chance to run back. NFT>Nair (17%) is also very similar. Very easy to do, but doesn’t offer a solid follow up after that.
NFT>Dash>Sourspot Nair jab lock (≥14%)
When using NFT to hit ROB with gyro, he will start to go into tumble animation at 37%. The knockback from being hit by gyro is pretty small, so they cannot jump out of it. The opponent will need to tech in order to avoid being jab locked. From this point onwards, it’s up to you to be creative in what devastating combo you can do. One thing I like doing is Auto cancel Dair/ AC Dair (last hit of dair)>Uair>Uair, as it deals quite a lot of damage. You can also do Bair>Grab>Fthrow if you want to get them offstage. If your opponent does end up doing a tech, Nair only has 11 frames of landing lag. A typical tech is intangible from frame 1-20, and they are vulnerable for the rest of the 6-7 frames that the animation lasts for (26-27 frames). A tech roll has the same amount of intangible frames, but the animation itself lasts for 40-41 frames. This gives you enough time to attack them, given that you have good reactions, therefore making this combo a good frame trap to use. I would recommend punishing a normal tech with jab or utilt, and a tech roll with a dash attack, grab or PP utilt. This combo is a decent percent range in which it works, as Nair will stop jab locking at around 60%
NFT>Dash attack (late hitbox)>Uair (28%, KILL CONFIRM)
As I said earlier, NFT>Dash attack has a pretty big range in which it will work. It will work even when the early hitbox of dash attack will not be able to connect anymore, but the late hitbox can. This hitbox has just the right amount of knockback that will allow you to get a good uair that can kill ROB at the top. However, there are 3 disadvantages of this combo. This combo requires some more space than a typical Fox combo. In the example that I did, ROB was at the centre of Battlefield. The NFT and dash attack alone got him offstage, and it was difficult to make the uair true (another small disadvantage is that you need to be quick with the uair, otherwise they can air dodge and you will miss). This leads into the 2nd disadvantage of this combo. If the ROB were to DI away from when being hit by the dash attack (which is certain to happen. It is not reaction at that point, it would just make sense to DI away when being hit), then this combo will be a lot harder to pull of. If the ROB ends up offstage, I would not recommend trying to go for this, but instead to react to his next action and punish accordingly. Lastly, the 3rd disadvantage is that this combo only has a small percent range in which it will be true. This combo works from about 115%-125%.
NFT>Usmash (24%, KILL CONFIRM)
Surprisingly, this combo is actually true, and it also has a decent percent range in which it kills, let alone works in general. I found that this confirm starts to kill from about 100%-135%. Of course, The ROB can DI away, making the percent range a bit smaller, but their chances of knowing that you might go for this beforehand is quite low, so use it as a surprise kill confirm! The higher their percent is, the more you will have to run before doing the usmash, but the combo is still true nevertheless. Also, this combo does work below at percents in which it will not kill (i.e. 60% and up). I included 60% because that is when I generally think the combo will start to be good to use and does not give the opponent a chance to punish the end lag after the usmash
That’s about it for just using the normal throws on the ground. It looks like we are limited when using these types of throws. Luckily, one tech allows us to do combos that were otherwise impossible to do.
The combo game with gyro using Jump Cancel Glide Toss (JCGT/JCT)
Using Jump cancel glide toss is a very useful tech to use when throwing gyro, and I highly recommend that you all perfect this simple tech, as using this tech can really widen the combo potential that Fox has. If you do not know what JCGT is or do not know how to do it, JTails has a good video explaining it. Now that you know about JCGT, let’s explore what combos we can do with it.
JCGT NFT>Jab(≈20%)
This is as simple as it gets. This combo is guaranteed from about 0-55% and dishes some easy percent. This requires very little tech skill to execute, so if you’re going to practice any JCGT combo in order to get used to JCGT, start with this one. Furthermore, you can mixup this combo by doing a jab jab and then opting for another move instead. You can do this to keep your opponent guessing what your motive is (just be sure not to do that all of the time, in case the opponent catches onto it and punishes you because of it). I guess the only 2 disadvantages of this combo is that you will not be able to regrab gyro afterwards, and you don’t really get any guaranteed followups after the rapid jab.
JCGT NFT>Utilt strings(≥17%)
This combo is a very good combo to use if you want to rank up damage very quickly. 17% may not sound like a lot, but that is because those percents in the titles are the total amount of percent that is true, regardless of what the opponent does. You can easily do 5-6 more Utilts to get your opponent at mid percent. This combo is very good against ROB due to ROB being heavy, thus making him easily to combo. The top hitbox of Fox’s Utilt (the last one in the Utilt animation) can also true combo from the JCGT, however, I would recommend doing a turnaround Utilt for more damage. If you would rather not do that, you can stick to doing JCGT NFT>Utilt>jab, which will also do about 25%. It will not get them into mid percent range, but it still does a good amount of damage.
JCGT NFT>Grab
This is a good combo to use to confirm grabs if you want to follow up from them or gain control of the stage. Once getting the hit from the gyro, the grab is guaranteed, and has quite a large percent range in which it works. This becomes very useful later on at higher percents, in which you can substitute the grab for another move. I will go through that later. Similarly to NFT>Usmash, you will have to start doing dash grabs at higher percents in order to get the grab, as they launch further and further away.
JCGT NFT>Dsmash (22%)
This combo is also another easy one to execute, and deals good damage along with stage control if the opponent is near the stage. However, one limitation of this combo is that the opponent can tech the Dsmash. If they roll away, there is nothing for you to worry about in terms of being punished. However, if they tech roll towards you or do a normal tech, they can punish you immediately afterwards, so I would recommend using this combo when the opponent is near the ledge. This way they have to worry about getting back on the stage safely first before having to deal with you again. Also, you will not be able to regrab gyro afterwards. After about 40%, you can keep this combo going by using PP Dsmash.
JCGT NDT>Footstool>Sourspot Nair>AC Dair>Uair>Uair (≥50%, BIG DMAGE)
This monster of a combo uses both footstools and a jab lock in order to get the big uair>uair combo which actually makes up most of the damage. This combo will require a lot of space, as you will constantly be pushing ROB to the other side of the stage. Furthermore, when jab locking the ROB with nair, it will help if you short hop instead of full hop, as you will have more time to come down with a sourspot nair. Furthermore, this combo is guaranteed, as long as you read your opponent’s DI when doing the uair>uair combo. Have fun with this combo, because it will most likely put your opponent on tilt, especially with a crowd behind you. Another amazing thing about this combo is that it works as low was 20%, and with good practice and positioning, you can do this massive combo.
If you are struggling to do that massive combo, the trick behind it is timing when you full hop. What I do to ensure that I get the AC Dair is to wait until ROB has bounced on the floor twice. After I see that, I go for the AC Dair. Also, to make the Rob switch direction, you must get the AC Dair to hit in the opposite direction that he is facing. The risk of doing this is that you have less time to get the footstool in order to continue the combo. One way around this is to make Fox turnaround, jump backwards and get the AC dair. That way, it was as if you were doing the footstool combo normally. There is also a different variation of this combo that you can use to get the exact same outcome. By doing a SH NDT>Footstool, you can do the exact same combo. The timing to get the footstool is a lot more strict, however, but is a better option OoS. Try practicing both variations of the combo, so you can do both of them when the opportunity comes.
JCGT NDT>PP Utilt>Uair(32%)
This combo may be difficult to execute to people who cannot PP consistently or do it easily in the middle of a match. This combo is good as it will put ROB in the air, and ROB can get juggled in the air easily as long as you do not fall for his tricks (i.e. using Bair to push themselves left or right, or to come down with a nair). Some may choose to drift offstage because that know that Fox will not be able to do much offstage that will be safe for him to do. Only limitation of this combo is the strict timing that you need to make the Uair true. You must buffer a FH Uair in order to make this true, but you do not need to worry about DI, because doing the PP Utilt will most likely mess up their DI, as most will choose to DI away. If they decide to DI away from a PP Utilt, they will get launched directly upwards, giving you a good opportunity to get that Uair.
JCGT NDT>Uair>Uair(≥36%, KILL CONFIRM)
This kill confirm is a surprisingly good one to use between around 70%. However, one very big disadvantage of this kill confirm is the ridiculously small range in which it works. If you want to do this combo, it will only work from about 70-78/79%. To be honest, it may not even be worth it to go for this combo at all. However, it is good to have knowledge that this combo exists. You never know, you might use this one day…
JCGT NDT>Fsmash(23%, KILL CONFIRM)
If done correctly, this combo can easily kill ROB, especially on stages with small horizontal blast zones. In terms of difficulty, this combo isn’t that hard to pull off, but you must buffer the Fsmash after doing the JCGT NDT. However, the way you execute this combo will determine whether it will kill or not. The timing of throwing the gyro downwards is very important. As stated before, no matter where or how you throw the gyro, Rob will get launched in the direction that the gyro was thrown towards. In order to do this combo correctly, you must throw the gyro down at the centre of ROB’s body or behind his body, but still within his hurtbox. Throwing it downwards in front of ROB will result in the Fsmash not connecting, and this will happen instead.
JCGT NFT/NDT>RAR Bair(21%, KILL CONFIRM)
This combo works with both NDT and NFT (I personally like using NFT, because it allows me to get a longer dash before I go and the RAR Bair. NDT has a much stricter frame, so people may just end up dash dancing) and is another good kill confirm for killing off the sides of the stage. This combo has a decent percent range in which it is true (from about 90-125%)
NOTE: JCGT>Usmash also works, and has a bigger percent range than the normal NFT>Usmash.
You may have noticed that I used both NFT and NDT for these combos, but is one better than the other? Unfortunately, the answer is no. In fact, different combos work better for certain throws, some work with both regardless, and some will only work using one of the throws. For the footstool combos, I recommend using NDT, as it sends ROB at a higher angle, giving you more time to get the footstool. Also, NFT>Fsmash will not work, because Fox will not be close enough for the Fsmash to connect, whether you buffer the Fsmash or not.
There are also some combos that Fox can do when doing short hops or full hops.
The combo game with gyro while in the air
SH NDT>Dair>Utilt strings(≥16%)
This combo is also another good one to rank up damage quickly and effectively. This combo does require you to do a turnaround utilt after the first utilt in order to keep the strings going. Alternatively, you can do a turnaround utilt straight away, and if you are fast enough, it will be a true combo. Like stated before, you will not be able to regrab the gyro, and any attempt to might end up with you being punished. This combo also works using a full hop!
SH NDT>Nair>Jab(≈27%)
This combo is good for ranking up quick damage, and it is one of the quickest ways to get ROB to about 30%, in which the more devastating combos will start to work. Only disadvantage that I see about this combo is the fact that there are no follow ups afterwards, so you will have to play neutral again if you want to get more percent.
SH NDT>Nair>Nair(27%)
Getting 2 nairs to true combo isn’t really known, but it actually works. And doing this in a combo is even better because you will begin to overwhelm your opponent, as you will be showing them just how fast Fox can play. Another good thing you can do with this combo is to fade away with the 2nd nair. This will allow you to reset neutral, get some distance between you and ROB, and prevent any retaliation from happening. Be careful when going for this option, as the ROB player can charge gyro again (which in some cases might be good) and try to hit you with it. Try to do some footsies after this combo to keep the momentum and pressure going, and see if you can find any habits that the ROB player likes to do in terms of trying to escape your combos.
FH NDT>Fast Fall(FF) Bair>Dash attack(26%)
This combo is a pretty cool combo because you are able to regrab gyro after using it against ROB, and that is happening while you are throwing out these hitboxes and knocking them back and forth. You must be sure to fast fall after the FH NDT so you have enough time to make the dash attack true. The Bair does not need to auto cancel in order to make this combo true. So once you have caught the gyro, what do you do next? I suggest dashing back and looking for a good opportunity to do another gyro combo. The fact that you have gyro in your hand limit’s ROB’s damage output by quite a bit. If you run away and laser, they will most likely do their neutral B in order to hit you, but with good reaction, and knowledge that they might do this beforehand, you can shield or reflect their laser. By having gyro in your hand, you can force them to approach you, and having gyro gives you a MUCH bigger punish game than before. Some ROB players may choose to hang near the ledge and wait for you to try and use gyro. In this case, be patient and Gyro stall (more on this later).
Footstool>NDT>FF Uair>Uair(39%)
This is another good combo to use that can lead to you grabbing gyro again. After watching BEAST VI a few months ago, I really liked the stuff that iStudying did with his Greninja, so I guess you can say that some of these combos were inspired by his technical play. Anyway, it is important that when doing the footstool, that the actual jump is a short hop instead of a full hop. Doing a full hop can result in the opponent being able to shield the gyro, and you will not be able to do the combo anymore. What makes that situation worse is that ROB can begin to juggle you with Uair and keep you in the air if you do not choose the right escape options. Also, you must make sure that the FF Uair hits behind ROB instead of in front of ROB. This kind of positioning can mess up the ROB player’s DI and make them launch to the right and allow you to connect with another Uair. If you uair in front of the ROB, the Rob will continue to go to the left (I am referencing the demonstration gyfycat, in case you did not know). You can still get the Uair, but you will not be able to regrab the gyro. This combo works best when ROB starts to tumble, which is 37%.
Footstool>NDT>Footstool>Sourspot Nair>FH NDT>Uair>Uair(52%, BIG DAMAGE)
This is another big combo that deals massive damage and requires good timing. By pulling off this combo successfully, you put your opponent from mid percent to death percent, which is pretty awesome. What is also really good about this combo is that you can do different things to change the combo to suit you or the situation that you are in. For example, when you jab lock them with the Nair, you can grab gyro again and opt to do some of the other combos mentioned here. In addition, you can even repeat the first part of the combo by doing a FH NFT>Footstool>Sourspot Nair to tag on some more damage, and do something else afterwards. You can do another combo completely, such as AC Dair>Uair>Uair and more.
FH NDT>Uair(23%, KILL CONFIRM)
This is the true combo which basically shows why Fox can be so good with gyro. This kill confirm works at over 300%. Yep, 300% (I tried it and it actually worked lol). If your opponent at is 135% or higher, then this kill confirm will always work, regardless of DI. If you wanted to be even safer, you can do a footstool before the NDT. Out of all of the kill confirms we have here, this one is the most important one that you know. It is a very easy combo to execute as well.
That about does it for combos. Of course, there are probably a lot more combos that you can do, some of which I have done, but just not included in this lab project due to how insignificant and/or ineffective it is on ROB.
I mentioned before that gyro stalling is a good way to keep hold of gyro while fighting ROB. Let’s go into detail with that…
Gyro stalling
Gyro stalling is a simple way of keeping gyro active while so you can keep the gyro in the long run, in case you cannot find a good opportunity to do a gyro combo at that moment. There are 2 main ways of gyro stalling:
- Keeping gyro in Fox hand and doing footsies, while avoiding attacks from ROB
- Using Uthrow and attack ROB/Defend Gyro and stand your ground
The first option is pretty good to use. Since Fox runs a lot faster than ROB, ROB will be forced to approach you if he wants to knock that gyro out of your hand. The only other projectile that ROB can use to hit you from a distance is Neutral B. small laser comes out pretty fast, but ROB has some startup in the Neutral B animation. Watch closely to what the ROB player is doing, and if the ROB player shoots a neutral B, you can easily shield/reflect it, and even rush in with a gyro combo if you are fast enough. Make good use of your movement options, as they will come in handy in order to ensure that you do not get hit. You should have the mindset of constantly baiting or observing the ROB player’s movement while holding gyro in your hand. Most will be shielding a lot, which kinda makes this option a bit bad in that situation, because hitting their shield with gyro will just make it disappear. This is where the second option comes in handy
The second option is using the Uthrow to keep gyro in the air while you carry on with your fight. We have some data showing the different combinations you can do with Uthrow and how it will impact how much time it will take for gyro to land again. We repeated each test 10 times and calculated the mean average score for each combination. Here are the results:
Upwards throw | 131 | 2.186
Smash Upwards throw | 183 | 3.053
SH Upwards throw | 138 | 2.302
FH Upwards throw | 148 | 2.469
Double Jump Upwards throw | 169 | 2.819
NOTE: Smash throws have no difference in the air in terms of distance, only damage.
According to these results, it seems like SUT and DJ Uthrow are the best ones to use when throwing the gyro upwards. Therefore, I would recommend using those throws for stalling. An interesting fact about all these throws is that Fox can run to the other side of the stage and back again and still grab them before they disappear. This emphasises how many things Fox can do in the meantime.
In terms of what to do while the gyro is in the air, you have 2 main options. You can use the time to quickly try and rush in normally in order to chip on some percent and return to the gyro again. This is a good option to do, as it will allow you to get ROB to a desired percent that might be required to do a certain combo or kill confirm. A disadvantage of this would be that ROB might win in neutral if you are not careful, and can throw you offstage, launch you upwards etc, and reclaim the gyro to use for himself. Be sure not to attack recklessly. If in doubt, return back to the gyro and wait for another good opportunity.
The second option is to stand your ground by staying near region of the gyro in which it will land in and play defensively until it comes back down. This is effective as the ROB will have to approach in order to take gyro away from you, and this option is very good for Fox players who have good reaction time. A good strategy to have is to throw it at the centre of the stage. That way, You can focus your defensive play at the centre of the stage, and keep stage control while waiting for the gyro to come back and looking for an opportunity to do an extended combo using gyro.
Try to use both of these options to maximise the potential of gyro stalling, as 1 option can be better than the other in certain situations.
Well, that's all I managed to find out about this. This lab project was a lot of fun, and I hope you guys learned a lot from what me and my team discovered. As always, more projects will be made. Fox discord have plenty of people just like me who discover stuff regularly, so you should consider joining the discord chat! You can check this thread for more info about Fox discord.
