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Ledgewhipping - The Perfect Ledgeguard

Tyr_03

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Ledgewhipping is used when your opponent has or is about to recover to the ledge rather than onto the stage. This will obviously occur much more often against some characters than others because of the way their recoveries work. Ledgewhipping is situationally a zero risk form of edgeguarding against this. I've been doing a lot of testing and experimenting with it in order to perfect it and this is what I've come up with.

Perfect Ledgewhipping On Solid Stages

As you notice your opponent recovering to the ledge, run to the very edge until you go into your teetering animation. This is easily done by dashing and letting go shortly before you reach the edge. Make sure your skidding animation has stopped before you begin PK Thunder or you may slide off the edge. If timed correctly, you should begin your PK Thunder just as the opponent has grabbed the ledge. Send PK Thunder down along the ledge of the stage so that it goes through the opponent during their invincibility frames. When the thunder goes through the bottom of the opponent, loop it back up around in order to hit yourself.

Perfect ledgewhipping on solid stages only works on certain characters at certain percentages. As you know, there are several ways to get up from the edge. You can do your standard stand up animation by pushing toward the stage, this varies with percentage. You can drop and then jump. You can jump from the edge. You can attack from the edge which varies with percentage. Or you may roll onto the stage from the edge. The beauty of perfect ledgewhipping is that it negates every one of these options in certain situations and punishes them. If the opponent stands up, they are hit by PKT2. If the opponent drops to jump, they are hit by PKT1 and most often stage spiked. If the opponent jumps, they are hit by PKT2 (you have to aim it up this time which is why you were standing on the very edge.) If the opponent rolls onto the stage they are hit by PKT2. Some character's attack animations will not hit you if you are standing at the teetering point for ledgewhipping causing them to miss completely and leading into a PKT2.

Perfect ledgewhipping will work everytime against the following characters.

Snake - Under 100%
Samus - Anytime
Marth - Under 100%
Diddy - Under 100%
Sheik - Over 100%
Charizard - Over 100%
Ike - Over 100%
King Dedede - Over 100%
Wolf - Over 100%
Lucario - Under 100%
Toon Link - Over 100%
Captain Falcon - Over 100%
Zero Suit Samus - Over 100%

Perfect ledgewhipping will work against other characters sometimes but it will depend entirely upon when they decide to use their attack which makes it well...not perfect. Since PKT1 outprioritizes every ledge attack, if the thunder is still in the way it will stop them. But if it is already below the stage when they do a ledge attack, they will hit you.

Perfect Ledgewhipping on Fallthrough Stages

Stages like Delfino Plaza are ideal for ledgewhipping. However it's done in a slightly different way. This time when you see the opponent headed for the edge, stop just short of where their ledge attack will hit you. This may take some time to get used to but even if you misspace it a little bit, most often it will still work. This time send your PK Thunder past the stage, down, and loop it up through the bottom of the stage in front of you to make a small circle. Again you have completely eliminated all of their options. Any ledge attack they do will be outprioritized by your thunder and you may repeat the process. If they jump from the ledge, send your thunder through the bottom and hit yourself upward with PKT2 into them. This works perfectly against any character.

Imperfect Ledgewhipping

Sometimes the ideal situation just isn't there when you need it. Against characters not listed above or at the wrong percentage, you're going to want to be out of the ledge attack range on solid stages. You follow the same process as perfect ledgewhipping on a solid stage except that you start further inside the stage in order to be outside of range. This will eliminate all options for the opponent except for jumping from the ledge quickly after they grab on. If they do this, you will have to hit yourself across the stage away from them with PKT2 in order to ensure your safety. Many opponents don't realize that this is the way they can escape so it's quite possible you can get away with it atleast for a while. Either way as long as you hit yourself away at the end there should be no risk to you and it can stop ledge camping.

Why is it important to know ledgewhipping?

1. Because no one will understand what's going on. People freak out the first time you ledgewhip them. Something about having the thunder inside their bodies during invincibility frames completely messes with their heads. The first few times they might even drop immediately trying to avoid it leading to an easy stagespike. Once they figure out what you're doing you'll have to try a bit harder but trust me, it works.

2. Absolute **** on tether recoveries. Anyone who abuses their tether will get annhialated by this. All you have to do is have the between them and the stage and they'll pull themselves right into it for stagespikes or knockback. Imperfect or perfect will always destroy them. Samus takes it especially hard.
 

Star Ryan

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I've been using the fall-through ledgewhipping, or some form of it for some time now. It seems to work nigh on always.

I find that on solid stages, taking Lucas to teetering point to PK thunder as your enemy is hanging below, takes alot more confidence.
 

DanGR

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I'm not sure how to execute this from your description. Could you explain it a little clearer?
 

J4pu

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Awesome tech/strategy man, I can't wait to see it being used in matches

glad Falco isn't in the perfect group and also that I know jumping will save me
but people who aren't informed beforehand... dang they're gunna get *****
 

Jellyfishn

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I kind of see where this is going, but I haven't tried it out yet. Sounds like a solid technique.
 

Pai

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I get it, but then again, I don't. You mean like that PK thunder slide off of platforms thing? Only... you do it back into the stage? Video please :<
 

Tyr_03

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I might be able to make a video sometime soon. I'll see what I can do. I've been wanting to make a video showing good thundersliding anyhow so maybe I'll just put in all my tricks at once.
 

DemonicTrilogy

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That's for me to know
I have one question. How do you control your thunderslide so that if you do if off and edge, you can sweetspot the edge instead of suiciding? I've been trying to get this concept down but it is hard to understand how you can control the slide. Also, are you saying that you take the pk thunder, have it go through the person during their invincibility frames, and then using the pk thunder bolt to hit yourself when they get back to the stage so that you hit them with PKT2?
 

Tyr_03

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^^^
How far off the edge you slide for a thunderslide is dependent upon when you time your Up B. There are a whole lot of options because of this but only a few are extremely useful for strategic purposes. Doing it off the edge of a stage such as FD is actually quite easy if you follow a simple trick. Rather than using up B while still running when you reach the edge, instead let go of the analog so that you Lucas begins his skidding animation. Just before the skidding animation is about to end, begin your Up B. This will cause Lucas to just barely leave the edge and fall downward. From here just bring the thunder around to hit yourself directly into the edge. I call this Thunderhugging. It's actually really nice sometimes because the thunder protects you as you fall and cancels out enemy attacks. When the thunder cancels Lucas will immediately grab the edge. On stages like Battlefield if you want to edgehog from a platform it is simply a matter of memorizing the timing and reproducing it. I would not suggest doing it on the right side of the stage because there are a lot of ways that it can lead to your death. Edgehogging just isn't that exciting to be worth risking a stock for.

The most useful application for thundersliding is edgecancelling your PKT2 on Battlefield for combos and mobility. It's really great for a surprise attack on Yoshi's Island too. Again this is simply a matter of memorizing the timing until you can do it perfectly every time. This may seem difficult at first but you will quickly develope a "feel" for it so that you can get whichever outcome you want whenever you want. You may spend a whole lot of time killing yourself until you really get a hold over what you're doing.

And yes, you have the concept of ledgewhipping correct. The thunder goes down and through the opponent and then loops around to hit yourself, preferably hitting your opponent as well. You'd be amazed how many times you can get people like this. The ledge is one place everyone thinks they are safe.
 

LaserBust

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Alright. Ive been doing this on some Non Sweetspotted UpBs and it actually worked on a few chars once.. Nterestin.. On teams, once, my partner ledgehogged a CF so he couldnt sweetspot and I finished em off wit this. It waz the most epic thing Ive ever seen.. almost. As far as doing this after they grab the edge, I havent had the guts 2 try..

Btw Ive been messin around with Thunder Hugging lately and I figured it would be a good edgeguarder for higher recoveries. Its jus like ledgewhipping, except yur not vulnerable after it, and instead of whippin yur foe from below 2 ya, yur whipping em from above. Mayb stop peeps like peach from floating above, or multi jump chars.. Idk.. Jus an idea..
 

Tyr_03

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Thunderhugging is a lot better than I expected it would be. I started using it more and got some ridiculously amazing kills with it. When you're lucky they get hit by the first PKT2 hit and get spiked downward or just hit away to their death. It's great for when you don't have quite enough time to prepare ledgewhipping. Ledgewhipping works best by far on characters with tether recoveries. It's pure ****.
 

Earthbound360

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^^^
You need to post your Wii code also.

I have to say that this tech is very useful and I use it a lot. Even if they catch the stagespike, they will be very low and be forced to sweetspot the edge. Proceed with an edgehog. And Tyr, are you still working on the guide?
 

Tyr_03

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I'm thinking of just writing up a full guide for Lucas. There's some stuff I haven't told you all. If I get the time I'd like to make a video on some things. But we'll see. It's been a crazy summer.
 

Earthbound360

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Well, you've already written guides on him using items, his dair, ledgewhipping, provided huge information on some other of Lucas' quirks like his autocancelled bair, and discovered many properties of PKT all on its own. I sure you're capable.
 

Masky

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Tyr: I'm guessing this guide only applies to Lucas and not Ness, correct? (or at least you only tested with Lucas)
 

Tyr_03

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I gave up using Ness a long time ago. I haven't done any testing really with ledgewhipping with him.
 

Earthbound360

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It kinda works with Ness in a different way, but its not as effective. Send PKT between the opponent and the stage, tailwhip them, bring the headaround in front of them. It has to be kinda low, and it's kinda hard cuz the PKT doesnt turn as sharp, and the knockback isnt of the same caliber of Lucas', but you can kinda say it works.
 

GimmeAnFSharp

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It kinda works with Ness in a different way, but its not as effective. Send PKT between the opponent and the stage, tailwhip them, bring the headaround in front of them. It has to be kinda low, and it's kinda hard cuz the PKT doesnt turn as sharp, and the knockback isnt of the same caliber of Lucas', but you can kinda say it works.
I dunno... at that point it feels too inconsistent to be really a reliable technique. Not to say it couldn't be done.
 

x9whitey9x

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I actually used Ledgewhipping in a friendly yesterday, but I didn't realize it until later. I got him with the stage spike on the side of Smashville.
 

prOAPC

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ok, today was my first time playing Brawl after vacations, and i was getting owned T_T but then i remember all the beauty that is playing with Lucas, i mean, the way he moves and specially the PKT.
it was some friendlies, i had nothing to lose, so i try that thing you call Ledgewhipping, BUT i think i did it wrong, but still worked. What i did was a edge momentum PK Thunder, i just ran to the edge and before i'm in the air, i used a PK Thunder, the enemy (Bowser) was just in the right position, where i hit him with ALL the PKT1, control it to hit myself, and hit Bowser with the first hit of PKT2, i could reach the plataform safely. Was it Ledgewhipping or just a good use of the thunderslinding (edge momentum PKT)
 

0RLY

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Here's a picture that might help you...

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____
_______________ . / . . . .\
@@@@@@@@@ XX . . . XX
@@@@@@@@ . .XX . . . XX
@@@@@@@ . . . XX . . . . */
@@@@@@@ . . . . \______/
@@@@@
@@@@

purple: stage
cyan: PKT
red: target
yellow: lucas
*: point of impact
 

Miamisportsfan45

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If you could post a vid of this technique, that'd help us a lot. As a Yoshi main, I'd love to see what this technique is like. Very interesting find.
 
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