ZGE
Smash Apprentice
I just wanted to discuss what Bowser's new dthrow does for him as well as enhance Bowser's gameplay theory. A lot of what I say is what I've considered in my own mind and I may have a lot of unfinished thoughts that I spill out on here which may not necessarily be correct either, so feel free to correct me if needed. In short, I think KK dthrow is an incredibly useful addition to Bowser's kit. According to the Project M Changelog,
"--Koopa Klaw Down Throw added.
--Grounded version is a tech-chase slam.
--Aerial version is a spike."
It doesn't explicitly say on the Project M site, but the dthrow does 15% unstaled and the aerial version appears to send opponents at around a 285 degree angle or so with neutral DI (i.e. no DI). This alone makes the move fantastic offstage. Now let's get more in depth.
The grounded version forces a tech chase situation. As most of you know an opponent has several options when flying to the ground. They can 1) tech in place, 2) tech right, 3) tech left, 4) no tech normal getup, 5) no tech roll right, 6) no tech roll left, 7) no tech getup attack, or 8) wait. With every character's frame data on rolls and techs being normalized, this means that Bowser consistently has 10 or so frames (unsure of this number) of advantage on a character upon them hitting the ground. I'm unsure if he can re-command grab tech chase (edit: tested and definitely can't), although I would imagine that he can't. If that's the case, once opponents figure out he can't KK regrab it makes teching a much more often picked option. Let's imagine you have your opponent near the ledge and you get a koopa klaw. Your options are obviously 1) fthrow, 2) bthrow, and 3) dthrow. Back throw would probably be used at kill percents, but let's say your opponent isn't necessarily there yet, maybe around mid-percent.
This is where the addition of dthrow proves to be an insanely good mixup opportunity. A grounded dthrow near the ledge, while it can be meteor canceled, will send your opponent offstage. On stages with walls, they can DI in and tech the wall. But as we all know, DI in is horrible DI for Bowser's KK fthrow and back throw. Expecting a KK dthrow? Opponent may reactively DI in. So KK fthrow and uair them off the stage, or jump KK regrab and send them back down or up or out or whatever. Expecting a KK fthrow? Opponent DI's out to prevent a guaranteed follow up. So Dthrow instead and send them at a worse angle, then you get an excellent edgeguarding opportunity (maybe down b to grab the ledge depending on character if they go straight for the ledge?). Although even as I'm fleshing this out, fthrow near the ledge may seem like the best option still, but I think the mixup proves to be really great. I don't have 3.6 in front of me so I can't test out theorycraft like I would like at the moment.
Now then, let's say you KK dthrow while not at the ledge. You still can have some great mixups. If your opponent expects KK fthrow and they DI out, you can dthrow and tech chase dash attack if they missed the tech or do something else if they tech roll away (edit: fsmash reads on missed tech rolls are more hype than anything Falcon does). Again, an opponent expecting a KK dthrow who would DI in and tech in place would be another prime candidate for being fthrown and up aired.
One more thing I would like to start discussing is that opponents would probably opt to shield less if they knew all the options present for getting KK'd. This means that they would generally be susceptible to getting hit by more of Bowser's other moves. What I don't think the dthrow changes is Bowser's neutral - it's still fairly bad and Bowser players will have to be very careful about how they play. But it would seem to me at least the scariness of the new dthrow would alter how opponents play against Bowser.
So, Bowser board, can we get discussion rolling? What other things do you think considering his changes, particularly to KK down throw? How does this affect certain specific matchups?
"--Koopa Klaw Down Throw added.
--Grounded version is a tech-chase slam.
--Aerial version is a spike."
It doesn't explicitly say on the Project M site, but the dthrow does 15% unstaled and the aerial version appears to send opponents at around a 285 degree angle or so with neutral DI (i.e. no DI). This alone makes the move fantastic offstage. Now let's get more in depth.
The grounded version forces a tech chase situation. As most of you know an opponent has several options when flying to the ground. They can 1) tech in place, 2) tech right, 3) tech left, 4) no tech normal getup, 5) no tech roll right, 6) no tech roll left, 7) no tech getup attack, or 8) wait. With every character's frame data on rolls and techs being normalized, this means that Bowser consistently has 10 or so frames (unsure of this number) of advantage on a character upon them hitting the ground. I'm unsure if he can re-command grab tech chase (edit: tested and definitely can't), although I would imagine that he can't. If that's the case, once opponents figure out he can't KK regrab it makes teching a much more often picked option. Let's imagine you have your opponent near the ledge and you get a koopa klaw. Your options are obviously 1) fthrow, 2) bthrow, and 3) dthrow. Back throw would probably be used at kill percents, but let's say your opponent isn't necessarily there yet, maybe around mid-percent.
This is where the addition of dthrow proves to be an insanely good mixup opportunity. A grounded dthrow near the ledge, while it can be meteor canceled, will send your opponent offstage. On stages with walls, they can DI in and tech the wall. But as we all know, DI in is horrible DI for Bowser's KK fthrow and back throw. Expecting a KK dthrow? Opponent may reactively DI in. So KK fthrow and uair them off the stage, or jump KK regrab and send them back down or up or out or whatever. Expecting a KK fthrow? Opponent DI's out to prevent a guaranteed follow up. So Dthrow instead and send them at a worse angle, then you get an excellent edgeguarding opportunity (maybe down b to grab the ledge depending on character if they go straight for the ledge?). Although even as I'm fleshing this out, fthrow near the ledge may seem like the best option still, but I think the mixup proves to be really great. I don't have 3.6 in front of me so I can't test out theorycraft like I would like at the moment.
Now then, let's say you KK dthrow while not at the ledge. You still can have some great mixups. If your opponent expects KK fthrow and they DI out, you can dthrow and tech chase dash attack if they missed the tech or do something else if they tech roll away (edit: fsmash reads on missed tech rolls are more hype than anything Falcon does). Again, an opponent expecting a KK dthrow who would DI in and tech in place would be another prime candidate for being fthrown and up aired.
One more thing I would like to start discussing is that opponents would probably opt to shield less if they knew all the options present for getting KK'd. This means that they would generally be susceptible to getting hit by more of Bowser's other moves. What I don't think the dthrow changes is Bowser's neutral - it's still fairly bad and Bowser players will have to be very careful about how they play. But it would seem to me at least the scariness of the new dthrow would alter how opponents play against Bowser.
So, Bowser board, can we get discussion rolling? What other things do you think considering his changes, particularly to KK down throw? How does this affect certain specific matchups?
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