Let's discuss Rainbow Cruise(We're done with Brinstar, I guess)!

[John12346]

SV's platform starts at a random position every match, so...

Also YI's top platform, shyguys, and support ghosts, where Delfino will choose to land between transitions, what transformation PS1 and PS2 will decide to make, what weapons the Battleship on Halberd will choose to use...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

1. Brinstar's acid is only barely random.
2. Ability to adapt to the stage with little advance notice is also a skill.

1. It's still random
2. But is it one of the skills we wish to test and the answer to that question depends on who you ask.

Yes. This is exactly it.

You're saying this as if players aren't already giving it their 110%.

Sorry for the double post.

 

[WindMajor]

1. It's still random
2. But is it one of the skill we wish to test and the answer to that question depends on who you ask.

Are we talking about SV or Brinstar here?

You're saying this as if players aren't already giving it their 110%.

Are you saying that they shouldn't try this because it's too hard?

Man God forbid we have to give in a little extra effort every once in a while. It's just too much!

 

[John12346]

I don't know why I have to keep explaining this. Brisntar's acid does rise up with some variance on what time it will choose to rise. With that said, if we had no other external cues, there'd be no way to tell when the acid is going to come up, and we'd have a reason to ban the stage on randomness.

The thing is, we have TWO other cues on rising acid. The screen shakes first, and THEN the acid rises, at which point you can very clearly see it coming up from the background. So... even if there is some variance, you just have to:

1. Watch the timer for when it reaches times AROUND the times when the acid usually rises above the stage.
2. At that point, you pay attention to the screen, and wait for it to start shaking. At this point, you have been given the cue that the next time the acid rises(which will be SOON), it's going rise above the stage.
3. From there, you just have to watch the background for the rising acid, and act appropriately.

Slightly random, but very easily handled by both players, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

It's just like the cases on, say Halberd where players get plenty of time to react to the weaponry, or Delfino, where players just need to be prepared to handle every stage transition the stage will randomly decide to pick.

 

[Life]

2. But is it one of the skills we wish to test and the answer to that question depends on who you ask.

Since the others took the rest of your post.

You're arguing that the best ruleset depends on who you ask. Why, then, are you arguing? If you really thought it was subjective, you wouldn't be so concerned.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Are we talking about SV or Brinstar here?



Are you saying that they shouldn't try this because it's too hard?

Man God forbid we have to give in a little extra effort every once in a while. It's just too much!

Brinstar

I never said they shouldn't try because it's to hard. I said that if there was a way for them to avoid an attack while at the same time, avoid having to air dodge, they would do it on any stage, but sometimes your just forced to air dodge

SV's platform starts at a random position every match, so...

Also YI's top platform, shyguys, and support ghosts, where Delfino will choose to land between transitions, what transformation PS1 and PS2 will decide to make, what weapons the Battleship on Halberd will choose to use...

But you know where it will be at all times once the match starts

The difference with those is that you can't abuse that randomness. Sure you can increase the odds of you getting saved by the ghosts, but it's never something you can rely on.

 

[John12346]

Respond to my other post, it's a better response to all of this.

 

[Life]

Respond to my other post, it's a better response to all of this.

Or just don't respond to any of them and admit defeat. Your call SMJ

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't know why I have to keep explaining this. Brisntar's acid does rise up with some variance on what time it will choose to rise. With that said, if we had no other external cues, there'd be no way to tell when the acid is going to come up, and we'd have a reason to ban the stage on randomness.

The thing is, we have TWO other cues on rising acid. The screen shakes first, and THEN the acid rises, at which point you can very clearly see it coming up from the background. So... even if there is some variance, you just have to:

1. Watch the timer for when it reaches times AROUND the times when the acid usually rises above the stage.
2. At that point, you pay attention to the screen, and wait for it to start shaking. At this point, you have been given the cue that the next time the acid rises(which will be SOON), it's going rise above the stage.
3. From there, you just have to watch the background for the rising acid, and act appropriately.

Slightly random, but very easily handled by both players, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

It's just like the cases on, say Halberd where players get plenty of time to react to the weaponry, or Delfino, where players just need to be prepared to handle every stage transition the stage will randomly decide to pick.

What if you get thrown offstage just as the stage starts to shake? Sure you know the acid is going to come, but by that time, the warning is already too late.

 

[MJG]

No this stage favors only characters who can shark, or run away good. Like I said before it's not just MK that's dumb on it. GnW, Wario, and Pit are also dumb cause they can basically plank you and run away just as bad as MK on this stage, especially if they seperate the stage.

Illmatic really? Getting hit by the lava is entirely your fault? That's not even a good response. Strong Bad is right. You can't take into account timers for stages when there are so many variables that can still result in you getting ****ed up by the lava. Like, how can people not see that? I already gave examples in another thread but there is nothing you can do about being hit offstage when the lava is rising, being grabbed when the lava is rising, having unfavorable ground compared to your opponent when the lava is rising, or having to recover when the lava is rising. Not to mention the stupid situations it can put you into depending on if it hits you both

Then people try to complain about the shy guys and have the nerve to say the bubbles have some sort of strategy to it? LMAO, this site is so full of strawmanning it's not even funny. MK banned or not these stages should of never been legal. They promote so many things that people complain about, with or without MK, like planking, stalling, running away, and timing out.

THis^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[John12346]

What if you get thrown offstage just as the stage starts to shake? Sure you know the acid is going to come, but by that time, the warning is already too late.

What if Frigate's lights decide to start flashing the moment you're offstage? The ledges deactivate and you're ****ed.
What if Smashville's platform isn't near you when you're trying to recover? Bet you wish that platform had spawned elsewhere at the beginning of the match.
What if Lylat Cruise decides to tilt away from you the very moment you try to recover(I know it's not random, but it's kinda silly to expect people to commit that to memory)? Dead.
What if Halberd decides to shoot at you when you've just made it back onstage? BOOM HEADSHOT

Now, let's look back at Brinstar. You're recovering, and the acid comes up and hits you. And you take... 15% damage. What's the big problem here when 4 other stages randomly KILL you at times when trying to recover?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What if Frigate's lights decide to start flashing the moment you're offstage? The ledges deactivate and you're ****ed.
What if Smashville's platform isn't near you when you're trying to recover? Bet you wish the platform had spawned elsewhere at the beginning of the match.
What if Lylat Cruise decides to tilt away from you the very moment you try to recover(I know it's not random, but it's kinda silly to expect people to commit that to memory)? Dead.
What if Halberd decides to shoot at you when you've just made it back onstage? BOOM HEADSHOT

Now, let's look back at Brinstar. You're recovering, and the acid comes up and hits you. And you take... 15% damage. What's the big problem here when 4 other stages randomly KILL you at times when trying to recover?

Ban Frigate.

But you know that it didn't. When the match starts you should pay attention to where the platform is. It's not random. If it was, players wouldn't be able to Scrooge from one side to the other while the platform moves with them.

It's not random and even if it was, it wouldn't be something anyone can abuse.

Ban Halberd

 

[John12346]

But you know that it didn't. When the match starts you should pay attention to where the platform is. It's not random. If it was, players wouldn't be able to Scrooge from one side to the other while the platform moves with them.

You're implying that you're capable of choosing when and where you're going to be knocked off the stage.

If the platform is not there to help save you, then you just got random jacked because it could've been there had it decided to spawn elsewhere at the beginning of the match.

It's not random and even if it was, it wouldn't be something anyone can abuse.

No one has committed Lylat's tilting to memory, so the time when you get knocked off the stage relative to the tilting may as well be random too.

And if it decides to tilt away from you when recovering...

Ban Frigate

Ban Halberd

Brb banning all of the stages that don't help my argument when legal.
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.
.
.
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The point I'm making here is that we have randomness legal in our game because each legal instance does not influence gameplay that heavily.

We have random transformations in PS1, PS2, Delfino, and Frigate.
We have reactable random KOs in Frigate and Halberd.
We have very scarce, unreactable random KOs in Smashville and Lylat Cruise, as well as random KO saves on Yoshi's Island and to a lesser extent Delfino.
There's also the fall through glitch in Delfino and Castle Siege, but I don't think anyone cares about that.

Brinstar has a scarce, semi-random, predictable, and extremely reactable 15% damage that doesn't even freaking kill and actually HELPS you recover by sending you up. How in the world can that ever be bad compared to everything else?

 

[-LzR-]

Dear Johnnumbers: You are awesome, but please don't argue with Jebus, it's like talking to a tree.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I never implied anything. It could have spawned anywhere, but guess what? It didn't. If you get hit and the platform is not there, it's because it was never going to be there (in that particular match)

Like I said, It may be random, but it's not something that players can abuse.

If it's random, damages you and can be abused in some way, it should be banned

 

[John12346]

You are confusing "used" with "abused."

If a hazard is predictable, reactable, and doesn't influence the match that heavily(in our case, 15% damage), then it should be fair game for both players to use in their strategies.

The reason why Halberd isn't banned despite having deadly weaponry is due to the fact that people rarely get hit by it, even with the opponent trying to force them into it. It's easier to get hit by Brinstar's acid in general, but the tradeoff is that it won't kill and only tacks on a little bit of damage.

We find being able to use stages to the best of our advantages one of the skills we want to test, and that includes being able to turn hazards that have been shown to not be a problem against the opponent as best as possible. It's all part of the game, and more along the lines of what the developers were intending the players do, anyway.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You are confusing "used" with "abused."

If a hazard is predictable, reactable, and doesn't influence the match that heavily(in our case, 15% damage), then it should be fair game for both players to use in their strategies.

The reason why Halberd isn't banned despite having deadly weaponry is due to the fact that people rarely get hit by it, even with the opponent trying to force them into it. It's easier to get hit by Brinstar's acid in general, but the tradeoff is that it won't kill and only tacks on a little bit of damage.

We find being able to use stages to the best of our advantages one of the skills we want to test, and that includes being able to turn hazards that have been shown to not be a problem against the opponent as best as possible. It's all part of the game, and more along the lines of what the developers were intending the players do, anyway.

I've seen Halberd's claw gimp many players. If we want to play the game the way the developers intended it to be played, then we should also turn on items.

 

[WindMajor]

We should.

 

[Life]

One-stock fooooooooooooooooooooood

Also, the devs intended that you could turn off all items, but since we don't use random stage select, the devs did not let us turn off stages. So if dev intent matters, we should avoid banning stages, characters, and other things we can't already turn off, as much as possible.

 

[WindMajor]

Jebus can you respond to John's other points?

Specifically his second line.

 

[-LzR-]

I've seen Halberd's claw gimp many players. If we want to play the game the way the developers intended it to be played, then we should also turn on items.

I've seen people get gimped by FDs ledge. Ban it?

 

[Ghostbone]

I've seen people get gimped by FDs ledge. Ban it?

Oh come on.
The claw randomly targets one player and is inconsistent, FD's ledge isn't -_-

 

[Sushi3]

Overall, we need to find a balance between promoting competition and fun, while reducing randomness.
What this means is different to different people, so we need some quantitative way to help assess this balance.

This could include sponsorships, #of viewers, etc. because these things definitely support competition.

Most people don't want to watch competitive brawl with Battefield only, or on the other hand, people abusing Hyrule. You can argue stage specifics which can help decide what to use, but utimately it's support for the competitive scene that is the most objective.

 

[holyv]

Please tell me, who the **** keeps banning stages like this?

Get those guys out of there -.- it makes no sense at all unban halberd and ban brinstar

mk is banned, bro -.-

 

[Tesh]

^ its just a fork in the road. Some folks are going one way, and some folks are going another.

 

[DMG]

I think it depends. G&W on Brinstar is pretty powerful with MK gone. His natural gameplay combined with Sharking is strong. Unless you had a veeeeery low LGL or some "camping" rule in place I think he would hands down be the best character on there and probably wouldn't lose any MU there. He's got a lot of safety and mixups from sharking or being below people, combined with decent enough air mobility to traverse the stage and cover particular areas with fairly good hitboxes.

As far as RC goes, I think that's less iffy with MK out of the picture. You will still have cases of Wario vs X character that just seem outrageous, but it can also certainly be a valid CP option for people trying to fight. That's the problem imo: a lot of these stages that help out lower tiered characters it's because they hurt ground camping while greatly benefiting air camping. Most of top tier then gets kinda nerfed ground wise (Snake Falco Diddy IC's Olimar Dedede etc) while characters like Wario G&W get buffed (and in turn make some MU's even with higher up characters near unbearable to watch). Peach doing good vs xyz top tier is traded off with Wario and friends ****** the balls off a lot of people.


For videos, idk if some of Zac's stuff was recorded. I remember a tournament where Gnes/others banned RC vs him, they went to Brinstar and Zac played pretty gay for a few sets in a row (that and with RC). Camping sharking using Uair just to keep them away, the whole 9 yards lol. I've gone G&W vs people on Brinstar and done similar (when Im not going Wario vs people there, or when people don't outright ban it vs me). In doubles it's even worse because the clustered environment means you get even greater reward with about the same risk and it's easier to turn spots where you shouldn't have been safe into well now he is. Double G&W on Brinstar MK gone... idk who could stop that honestly lol.

 

[WindMajor]

Are there any videos of GaW doing amazing things on Brinstar or is this all speculation?

I'd like to see.

 

[Life]

I understand it's a good CP for quite a few characters, such as Ness.

 

[Akaku94]

I think it depends. G&W on Brinstar is pretty powerful with MK gone. His natural gameplay combined with Sharking is strong. Unless you had a veeeeery low LGL or some "camping" rule in place I think he would hands down be the best character on there and probably wouldn't lose any MU there. He's got a lot of safety and mixups from sharking or being below people, combined with decent enough air mobility to traverse the stage and cover particular areas with fairly good hitboxes.

As far as RC goes, I think that's less iffy with MK out of the picture. You will still have cases of Wario vs X character that just seem outrageous, but it can also certainly be a valid CP option for people trying to fight. That's the problem imo: a lot of these stages that help out lower tiered characters it's because they hurt ground camping while greatly benefiting air camping. Most of top tier then gets kinda nerfed ground wise (Snake Falco Diddy IC's Olimar Dedede etc) while characters like Wario G&W get buffed (and in turn make some MU's even with higher up characters near unbearable to watch). Peach doing good vs xyz top tier is traded off with Wario and friends ****** the balls off a lot of people.


For videos, idk if some of Zac's stuff was recorded. I remember a tournament where Gnes/others banned RC vs him, they went to Brinstar and Zac played pretty gay for a few sets in a row (that and with RC). Camping sharking using Uair just to keep them away, the whole 9 yards lol. I've gone G&W vs people on Brinstar and done similar (when Im not going Wario vs people there, or when people don't outright ban it vs me). In doubles it's even worse because the clustered environment means you get even greater reward with about the same risk and it's easier to turn spots where you shouldn't have been safe into well now he is. Double G&W on Brinstar MK gone... idk who could stop that honestly lol.

The main problem with your argument is best illustrated here:

That's the problem imo: a lot of these stages that help out lower tiered characters it's because they hurt ground camping while greatly benefiting air camping. Most of top tier then gets kinda nerfed ground wise (Snake Falco Diddy IC's Olimar Dedede etc) while characters like Wario G&W get buffed (and in turn make some MU's even with higher up characters near unbearable to watch).

You say that these stages hurt top tiered chars by favoring the air, but maybe the characters are top tier because of the stagelist! I've said before that ICs, Olimar, and arguably Falco and Diddy are buffed artificially by the "Starter list" which is essentially a collection of ground-favoring stages. Under a ruleset with flssing, I bet they would be lower, and G&W, Wario and the like would be higher. That's not nerfing the top tier; it's unbuffing them! If those chars get ***** on multiple stages, they aren't as good as you think.

The tier list is all too dependent on the ruleset (mostly the starter list, which overwhelmingly favors ground chars)

 

[Tesh]

I think it depends. G&W on Brinstar is pretty powerful with MK gone. His natural gameplay combined with Sharking is strong. Unless you had a veeeeery low LGL or some "camping" rule in place I think he would hands down be the best character on there and probably wouldn't lose any MU there. He's got a lot of safety and mixups from sharking or being below people, combined with decent enough air mobility to traverse the stage and cover particular areas with fairly good hitboxes.

As far as RC goes, I think that's less iffy with MK out of the picture. You will still have cases of Wario vs X character that just seem outrageous, but it can also certainly be a valid CP option for people trying to fight. That's the problem imo: a lot of these stages that help out lower tiered characters it's because they hurt ground camping while greatly benefiting air camping. Most of top tier then gets kinda nerfed ground wise (Snake Falco Diddy IC's Olimar Dedede etc) while characters like Wario G&W get buffed (and in turn make some MU's even with higher up characters near unbearable to watch). Peach doing good vs xyz top tier is traded off with Wario and friends ****** the balls off a lot of people.


For videos, idk if some of Zac's stuff was recorded. I remember a tournament where Gnes/others banned RC vs him, they went to Brinstar and Zac played pretty gay for a few sets in a row (that and with RC). Camping sharking using Uair just to keep them away, the whole 9 yards lol. I've gone G&W vs people on Brinstar and done similar (when Im not going Wario vs people there, or when people don't outright ban it vs me). In doubles it's even worse because the clustered environment means you get even greater reward with about the same risk and it's easier to turn spots where you shouldn't have been safe into well now he is. Double G&W on Brinstar MK gone... idk who could stop that honestly lol.

All I remember is Zac timing Razer out on Smashville. Sounds like GnW just does that sometimes.

Also, how exactly does GnW camp these characters with an LGL? He has one jump so sharking is extremely limited to clearly space to safely get off the ledge. Sharking just doesn't seem very threatening when the only people left that can do it either
A-Don't have enough jumps or mobility to cover much of the stage before surfacing (charizard, Gnw and characters is meh recoveries)
B-Don't have the vertical disjoints to stay safe from trading with spikes and anything that can be angled to hit near the ground (Pit, Jigglypuff)
C-Are just too damn slow to punish people rolling away from their aerials (Kirby, DDD)
D-Despite safe aerials and mobility, can't really stay under the stage long enough to take more than 2 shots at an opponent (Wario, Sonic)

E- This pretty much leaves ROB and Peach, both of which have "limited use" specials that require them to come back to the stage.

I know planking is considered "lame" and people don't want stages that may encourage it, but thats just Brawl. LGLs are there to provide a way to beat ledge play with patience. Every character can safely put hitboxes near the ledge and force a planking opponent to use up ledge grabs

The main problem with your argument is best illustrated here:



You say that these stages hurt top tiered chars by favoring the air, but maybe the characters are top tier because of the stagelist! I've said before that ICs, Olimar, and arguably Falco and Diddy are buffed artificially by the "Starter list" which is essentially a collection of ground-favoring stages. Under a ruleset with flssing, I bet they would be lower, and G&W, Wario and the like would be higher. That's not nerfing the top tier; it's unbuffing them! If those chars get ***** on multiple stages, they aren't as good as you think.

The tier list is all too dependent on the ruleset (mostly the starter list, which overwhelmingly favors ground chars)

*likes*

 

[-LzR-]

There shouldn't be an LGL, at all. It's a stupid rule.

 

[Tesh]

^ I thought this way long ago, but then I realized that you have to make sure people actually want to play the game.

Kind of funny how Brawl has all these different types of borders for levels and they are all broken. Walls? We ban any stage that keeps those around all the time.
Walkoffs? Same deal
Ledges? Abused to make the game a real buzz-kill.
Water/swimoffs? Interestingly fair maybe, but no level incorporates it permanently without the plague of ledge play nearby.

Face it, the game needs many of these limitations to be playable competitively.

 

[WindMajor]

Or people can just man up and play the game.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't want to deal with Diddy camping behind his nanners shooting peanuts so can we please ban Diddy so I can play the game the way I want to?

 

[Strong Badam]

^ I thought this way long ago, but then I realized that you have to make sure people actually want to play the game.

Who are you to say that planking or ledge camping in general isn't playing the game?

 

[Akaku94]

Planking is playing the game. Furthermore, it's not broken (read: unbeatable) in any case except that of MK. With no MK, planking ceases to be an issue.

And what he was saying was that there are a bunch of scrubs that think planking is utterly broken and that we need an lgl to save us from "gay, cheap" planking...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Planking is playing the game. Furthermore, it's not broken (read: unbeatable) in any case except that of MK. With no MK, planking ceases to be an issue.

And what he was saying was that there are a bunch of scrubs that think planking is utterly broken and that we need an lgl to save us from "gay, cheap" planking...

Not even MK's perfect Planking is unbeatable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

 

[Cassio]

So does anyone really believe these stages are broken? Why does that seem to be where the discussion gravitates towards? This thread seems really pointless based on how things are going, no one is on the same page.

 

[WindMajor]

Well the only person against Brinstar who is active is jebus. I think the rest of us are convinced brinstar is fine

 

[Tesh]

I said people have to WANT to play the game. Obviously if we allow endless planking to turn people away from the game, less people will WANT to play it.